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Old 04-23-2014, 02:41 AM   #1
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Boy Scout OA Dance Teams

Hello All
I am a Boy Scout leader and am in the Order of the Arrow (the Honor Society of Scouting) along with my husband and sons. My sons and I were asked to join the lodge's Dance Team. We attended a couple of dances with them that they performed for younger Cub Scouts. For the most part, everything they did was appropriate, however the leader of the group made a comment to me that my sons had to dance to a song that is traditionally a Men's Traditional dance. When they said they don't dance traditional (they are grass) the leader was miffed. I did not dance to this song either but he said nothing about me not dancing only the boys. He had a young girl who is suppose to be a jingle dancer and an older lady who is a traditional I think (can't exactly tell by her outfit) dancing to this song also. Then after the second dance the leader came up to me and said that he won't allow "HIS" dancers to attend powwows unless HE thinks they have a complete outfit and have it in their heart. I was offended by this because he was insinuating that my sons' regalia is not complete to his standards. I said to him that no one will tell me when and where my children can dance at any powwow and they have been dancing their entire lives! They have grown up on the Powwow circuit and he has never been to the powwows they grew up in (such as Julyamsh and other Pacific NW dances). Mind you my boys are the ONLY native dancers in this group. Since these comments were made we have not been to any more of their dances or "practices" nor did any of them show up to the local powwow last weekend that the leader says they always go to. Since there are only 2 local powwows a year I was suprised not to see any of them there. The leader says he has spoken with the leaders or area tribes and they have given their blessing for his scouts to dance at the powwows and even contest. Do you agree? What are you thoughts on this? Am I just being over-protective of our culture?
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Old 04-23-2014, 03:30 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nascarboys3 View Post
Hello All
I am a Boy Scout leader and am in the Order of the Arrow (the Honor Society of Scouting) along with my husband and sons. My sons and I were asked to join the lodge's Dance Team. We attended a couple of dances with them that they performed for younger Cub Scouts. For the most part, everything they did was appropriate, however the leader of the group made a comment to me that my sons had to dance to a song that is traditionally a Men's Traditional dance. When they said they don't dance traditional (they are grass) the leader was miffed. I did not dance to this song either but he said nothing about me not dancing only the boys. He had a young girl who is suppose to be a jingle dancer and an older lady who is a traditional I think (can't exactly tell by her outfit) dancing to this song also. Then after the second dance the leader came up to me and said that he won't allow "HIS" dancers to attend powwows unless HE thinks they have a complete outfit and have it in their heart. I was offended by this because he was insinuating that my sons' regalia is not complete to his standards. I said to him that no one will tell me when and where my children can dance at any powwow and they have been dancing their entire lives! They have grown up on the Powwow circuit and he has never been to the powwows they grew up in (such as Julyamsh and other Pacific NW dances). Mind you my boys are the ONLY native dancers in this group. Since these comments were made we have not been to any more of their dances or "practices" nor did any of them show up to the local powwow last weekend that the leader says they always go to. Since there are only 2 local powwows a year I was suprised not to see any of them there. The leader says he has spoken with the leaders or area tribes and they have given their blessing for his scouts to dance at the powwows and even contest. Do you agree? What are you thoughts on this? Am I just being over-protective of our culture?
You fell into the Boy Scout trap so it's your problem to figure it out. You won't get any sympathy from me. Let someone else here give you some advice.
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Old 04-23-2014, 03:40 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by wanjica_the_one View Post
You fell into the Boy Scout trap so it's your problem to figure it out. You won't get any sympathy from me. Let someone else here give you some advice.

Wow, well that was helpful. You could have just not replied rather than being nasty about it.
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Old 04-23-2014, 06:24 AM   #4
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I don't approve of the Boy Scout ways, not even Girl Scout. But if you were talking about the powwows which your sons had been in powwows for a while, the leader is telling you what your sons need to be done what to do for their regalia. You should not ignored him. You should have respected the leader of the powwows. He knew the rules and the tradition of the regalia, especially in Powwows.

As for Boy Scouts, even the Cub Scouts, should not belong in the Powwows anyway. This Boy Scout business is to earn their badges and merits plus to do what the leader of the Cub or Boy Scout wanted them to do in their clubs.

I am sorry that you are going to be disappointed about this way. This is out of your hand.
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Old 04-23-2014, 06:25 AM   #5
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i also dislike hobbyist and order of the arrow.....you have NO BUSINESS dancing

do not call your outfit regalia, call it a COSTUME.....on us it is regalia, but on you and your family, you are playing dress-up and pretending you are something you arent...so from now on call whatever you are wearing a COSTUME

your outfit will ALWAYS be incomplete.....you know why? because you dont have our history or our red skin to complete it

*EDIT #1*
i also fell in the boy scout trap...while i hold my statement as valid it was applied to wrong person

i see "order of the arrow" and i automatically see red
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Old 04-23-2014, 09:26 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by nascarboys3 View Post
...Mind you my boys are the ONLY native dancers in this group....
I guess I'm confused. I don't have a problem with Scouting per say. I think their goals are largely admirable. But, I have huge problems with the cultural appropriation -- especially within OA -- done in the context of some of the organization's activities. How can one be an honorable member of an honor society which has to steal another culture's symbols and reinvest them with alien values? But, that is a debate for another day.

It seems to me you have run up against the classic Native person/ OA block. You can advise only until you question their competence in or right to enact elements of our cultures. In my experience, they will marshall a thousand rhetorical devices to guard their "rights" and do what they want to do. You have stood astride the tracks yelling slow down, danger ahead. But the light you see coming is the freight train of colonial privilege. I'd suggest you jump now and take your boys dancing with their kin.
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Old 04-23-2014, 12:05 PM   #7
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ok i didnt catch that about your boys being the only native dancers in the group

again i have a problem with that......why would they not dance amongst the indian community......why seek out notorious misappropriators to powwow with?

if you are native...or have been around natives.....then you know how the majority of us feel about order of the arrow

why would you take powwow instructions from a boy scout leader instead of an elder in the local indian community?

is the boy scout leader in question descended from people who "hid out in the woods" during the trail?

*EDIT #2*
see first sentance
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Old 04-23-2014, 04:05 PM   #8
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Wow every one of you have misconstrued my entire post. Yes we are native, yes we dance at our powwow, this particular group of Boy Scout dance team apparently has permission from local tribes to dance and compete at their powwows...no I do not agree on this. The leader in question is a Boy Scout leader NOT a tribal leader as I would never even think of disrespecting an elder like you are accusing me of. I am sorry I even posted this ....I am quit surprised how I am instantly judged and trashed by my own people.
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Old 04-23-2014, 04:19 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by milehighsalute View Post
i also dislike hobbyist and order of the arrow.....you have NO BUSINESS dancing

do not call your outfit regalia, call it a COSTUME.....on us it is regalia, but on you and your family, you are playing dress-up and pretending you are something you arent...so from now on call whatever you are wearing a COSTUME

your outfit will ALWAYS be incomplete.....you know why? because you dont have our history or our red skin to complete it
How dare you accuse me if such things. My sons and I do wear our regalia....they are NOT costumes that is what the Boy Scouts wear. Do not judge and thrash your tongue on something you do not know about!!!
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Old 04-23-2014, 05:12 PM   #10
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you didnt read the first sentence of my second post

anyways if you are native then what would you care what a BOY SCOUT LEADER has to say or his opinions.....

im done with this thread
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Old 04-23-2014, 10:18 PM   #11
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Old 04-24-2014, 12:58 AM   #12
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You don't have to be cruel to the person who asking about OA Groups. Leave him alone.
Is this a demand or request? White people are always looking to push their hurt feelings and twist things around. I feel sorry for you.
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Old 04-24-2014, 01:37 AM   #13
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Wow every one of you have misconstrued my entire post. Yes we are native, yes we dance at our powwow, this particular group of Boy Scout dance team apparently has permission from local tribes to dance and compete at their powwows...no I do not agree on this. The leader in question is a Boy Scout leader NOT a tribal leader as I would never even think of disrespecting an elder like you are accusing me of. I am sorry I even posted this ....I am quit surprised how I am instantly judged and trashed by my own people.
I saw Julyamsh and Spokane. EVERYBODY wants to go to Post Falls! lol You're around Nespelem (Colville rez) and other Chief Joseph land. Good area. See. I was listening. hahaaa

Sorry to hear you had so much problems with the Boy Scouts. Especially a white leader who had no idea what he was talking about. You'll see a lot of boy scouts coming on here to get their information for their OA stuff. Kinda different when they had the real deal Holyfield at their front door.

Have you ever seen the dance team at powwows around there (Spokane)? Seems if they had permission, you would have seen their outfits.

Personally, I think it's good to allow your children to explore other cultures. It will help them as they get older to make their own decisions.

Did you keep your boys in the scouts or did you pull the plug?
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Old 04-24-2014, 10:57 AM   #14
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You don't have to be cruel to the person who asking about OA Groups. Leave him alone.
I think 'him' is a 'her'.

One of us was not paying attention.
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Old 04-24-2014, 12:18 PM   #15
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Is this a demand or request? White people are always looking to push their hurt feelings and twist things around. I feel sorry for you.
be careful with WPD wanjica....he will start an online fight, then run to the mods and cry when you tell him something he dont like....typical colonial attitude

thats his white priviledge showing....he thinks its perfectly ok for non-indians to powwow dance because he is one of them....and maybe it is....but in this world its still gonna make alot of people mad and he gotta learn to deal with the fact that for every injun who says its ok there are gonna be 2 that say its not........but he will keep crying foul..HE KNOWS THIS AHEAD OF TIME BUT WILL KEEP ON DANCING ANYWAYS...i wouldnt even engage with this crybaby snitch....he really only has 2 choices, stop appropriating our culture or to grow some thick skin

anyways i am not being cruel, i am being blunt....big difference...and the "ndn attitude" i have towards order of the arrow is not only held my me but by most indians....i am not assuming to speak for ALL indians but i do know all the conversations i've had in since i entered the arena as a kid in 1978 about boy scouts, wannabes and twinkies, at best i seen them dismissed as stupid and not worthy of being paid attention to, at worst i heard of indians wanting to kick all their azzes.....if you are non-indian....or if you ARE indian but affiliate with these people there is going to be a large majority of the powwow world that will disagree with and many of them will have something to say.....and that something will not be supportive i guarantee you that.....is it wrong? im not sure....is it racist? i look as it as protective....is it exclusive? maybe......but either way THATS THE WAY IT IS.....you gotta deal with it just as we have to deal with hobbyists, mascots, stupid questions because THATS THE WAY IT IS....the knife cuts both ways doesnt it? and just because we have to swallow it doesnt mean we have to like it.... so many of us will speak on it.....END OF THAT DISCUSSION

again....let me make myself clear...A BOY SCOUT LEADER IS NOWHERE NEAR QUALIFIED TO TELL YOU WHAT IS WHAT IN THE POWWOW WORLD....and if you are indian and listening to a boy scout rather than the elders on your own community than maybe you need to take a step back and ask yourself the right questions and hopefully you can arrive at that answer all by yourself

*EDIT #3*
i stand by everything i typed here
key sentence being "i'm not being cruel i am being BLUNT"
and WPD did pull crybaby "run to the mods" stuff and cried foul after picking fights because he didnt like my opinion.....thats absolutely true
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Old 04-24-2014, 12:34 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
I guess I'm confused. I don't have a problem with Scouting per say. I think their goals are largely admirable. But, I have huge problems with the cultural appropriation -- especially within OA -- done in the context of some of the organization's activities. How can one be an honorable member of an honor society which has to steal another culture's symbols and reinvest them with alien values? But, that is a debate for another day.

It seems to me you have run up against the classic Native person/ OA block. You can advise only until you question their competence in or right to enact elements of our cultures. In my experience, they will marshall a thousand rhetorical devices to guard their "rights" and do what they want to do. You have stood astride the tracks yelling slow down, danger ahead. But the light you see coming is the freight train of colonial privilege. I'd suggest you jump now and take your boys dancing with their kin.
well.....kinda hard here......everytime the subject comes up it gets heated quick....then people start going overboard and the threads get closed quick

*EDIT #4* i guess i called that one right....and i am just as responsible for playing "get the boy scout" as anyone else
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Last edited by milehighsalute; 04-26-2014 at 01:11 PM..
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Old 04-24-2014, 01:11 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by milehighsalute View Post
again....let me make myself clear...A BOY SCOUT LEADER IS NOWHERE NEAR QUALIFIED TO TELL YOU WHAT IS WHAT IN THE POWWOW WORLD....and if you are indian and listening to a boy scout rather than the elders on your own community than maybe you need to take a step back and ask yourself the right questions and hopefully you can arrive at that answer all by yourself
I totally agree with the above statement!

As for nascarboys3, question:
Its okay for the Scouts to dance Intertribal dances only, as long as they don't make a mockery... I rather not have scouts dance at all at powwows but anyone can basically dance intertribal.

And why even take your boys around people like that, I wouldn't even go back to any of their meetings! But its just my two cents.

Last edited by lbgood; 04-24-2014 at 01:13 PM..
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Old 04-26-2014, 11:57 AM   #18
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well.....kinda hard here......everytime the subject comes up it gets heated quick....then people start going overboard and the threads get closed quick
So here's what we are going to do instead of closing this thread right now...

Anyone that replied to the OP that misunderstood what she was talking about gets to go back to their post and do an editing to reflect what was actually being asked.

Anyone that has made an off topic post, gets to go back and edit their post as well to put their comment back on topic.

I'll give the thread 24 hours to fix itself with editing or I'll do the editing and then closing.
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Old 04-26-2014, 12:23 PM   #19
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Hello All
I am a Boy Scout leader and am in the Order of the Arrow (the Honor Society of Scouting) along with my husband and sons. My sons and I were asked to join the lodge's Dance Team. We attended a couple of dances with them that they performed for younger Cub Scouts. For the most part, everything they did was appropriate, however the leader of the group made a comment to me that my sons had to dance to a song that is traditionally a Men's Traditional dance. When they said they don't dance traditional (they are grass) the leader was miffed. I did not dance to this song either but he said nothing about me not dancing only the boys. He had a young girl who is suppose to be a jingle dancer and an older lady who is a traditional I think (can't exactly tell by her outfit) dancing to this song also. Then after the second dance the leader came up to me and said that he won't allow "HIS" dancers to attend powwows unless HE thinks they have a complete outfit and have it in their heart. I was offended by this because he was insinuating that my sons' regalia is not complete to his standards. I said to him that no one will tell me when and where my children can dance at any powwow and they have been dancing their entire lives! They have grown up on the Powwow circuit and he has never been to the powwows they grew up in (such as Julyamsh and other Pacific NW dances). Mind you my boys are the ONLY native dancers in this group. Since these comments were made we have not been to any more of their dances or "practices" nor did any of them show up to the local powwow last weekend that the leader says they always go to. Since there are only 2 local powwows a year I was suprised not to see any of them there. The leader says he has spoken with the leaders or area tribes and they have given their blessing for his scouts to dance at the powwows and even contest. Do you agree? What are you thoughts on this? Am I just being over-protective of our culture?
My advice: You were obligated to dance. All dancers must know how to dance to any type of song, no matter what type of dancer you are.

My niece was dancing teen girls fancy shawl at the Indio powwow some time ago, they were given a men's southern ruffle song. Did she walk off and refuse to dance? No, she made the best of it.
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Old 04-26-2014, 01:13 PM   #20
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So here's what we are going to do instead of closing this thread right now...

Anyone that replied to the OP that misunderstood what she was talking about gets to go back to their post and do an editing to reflect what was actually being asked.

Anyone that has made an off topic post, gets to go back and edit their post as well to put their comment back on topic.

I'll give the thread 24 hours to fix itself with editing or I'll do the editing and then closing.
fair enough....didnt exactly "edit" my position......but used footnotes instead to explain where i am coming from
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