[subeeds]

Originally Posted by comadre

Now that this thread has slowed down may I ask a real ndn what or who are the Saponi?

Here's a wiki link, comadre, that might be a good start. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saponi_people

So do you think that if I told em that because he is my mother's nephew that also make him my brother, he would have really flipped his lid?

[Grits & Beans]

wow

[Josiah]

Cherokee History 101

Cherokee Nation has a long history in these United States and before that in the New World as the Europeans called this place. In the early part of the 1700's we were a collection of Towns that had separate councils and town chiefs we were divided into clans, we lived in the mountains and near streams. This all has been well documented many times over and is a well known story. When the British first started trading with us they discovered that each town they made deals with they had to do the same thing over again in the next town. They were the first to compel the cherokees to appoint a Principle Chief that spoke for all cherokees. This set in motion conflict within our tribe for the next 300 years and still counting. It destroyed our clan system and eventually split our tribe into 3 parts. Yes 3,
These 3 parts all speak the same language, have the same belief system and acknowledge the fact that we are related to each other.
Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma and Eastern Cherokees are the same group just split asunder by the treaty of 1835
The United Keetoowah Band is made of elements of Old Settlers and Western Cherokee now known as Cherokee Nation.

In the 1840's Cherokees had their civil war between old settlers and eastern cherokees blood feuds and killings all the way till 1866.

In 1866 a treaty was done between the Cherokee Nation and for the first time was mentioned the Southern Cherokee which was made of Stand Waties troops which I have 2 GGG Grandpas who fought with them.

Now comes the important part!!
According to the Southern Cherokee Tribe of Kentucky website in 1871 they "escaped" from Indian Territory in 76 wagons that they hired in Ft Smith Arkansas some hardy souls decided to stay in Arkansas and Missouri to "hide out" and eventually they made to Kentucky where they made themselves blend in and stay to themselves for the next 100 years. It was only because other groups calling themselves the Southern Cherokee they decided to come forth and set the record straight. The website also says they were in fear that they would be brought back to Indian Territory by the "Fullbloods" and then killed.

Problems with the Story

Stand Watie's Troops Mustered in 1861 in Ft Gibson Ok we have there names and what district they are from. That is the Southern Cherokee and THEY Stayed in the Cherokee Nation AFTER the War!
For the most part they were full bloods
Those SAME MEN were on various rolls over the next 30 years

Here is the kicker!!!
The Dawes Roll ONLY enrolled Cherokees that actually lived in Indian Territory at the time of the roll 1896-1907
The Miller Guinon Roll was accomplished to PAY Cherokees or their Descendants that had been Removed from the East in 1835-1838 REGARDLESS where they lived even in Kentucky!
So using both rolls gives you a pretty clear picture of who was Cherokee in 1900.
OVER 100,000 people showed up for the FREE Money and Land. They came from all over the place Ohio, Tennessee, Alabama, Alaska, Hawaii yes even Kentucky... When it was all said and done roughly 40,000 Cherokees were accepted along with a few thousand that were enrolled after court case were successfully done as late as 1914.

We descend from those Cherokees that have been in Oklahoma as early 1805 we know there names and we know the families. For Cherokees are some of the most documented tribes in the History of the United States. Yes we have Split into Three Parts but we still are related to each other and still can converse with each other in our Language of our Fathers and Mothers.
That is fact

The rest is fantasy

[Zeke]

Looks like I missed the fun.

This isn't my tribe, I am not a historical expert, nor do I feel like reading every specific missive. (I sort of enjoy paragraphs and punctuation. Without it, reading stuff is tiresome.) Here's the rub, in my opinion.

Is it possible, for ANY tribe which was removed, that remnants my have -- hypothetically -- managed to not take the long walk and were left behind? "Sure."

The Ottawa, for example, were from the Great Lakes region and made it to Oklahoma by way of Kansas and other interludes in between. Is it possible, perhaps even likely, that someone involved may have stopped off (or never started) in a state between here and there (oh, say, Kentucky) and decided that laying low was the best available option? "Of course."

But you're not gong to convince me that a completely viable civilization existed underground -- for >100 years -- just biding their time to pop up (suddenly!) when it became culturally, financially, and politically expedient to be Native.

If there was no $$$ involved, I find it highly unlikely that such would occur or that the Native genetics police (hey, I haven't mentioned KiowKat in a while!) would even care. (I know that I don't.)

And that, universally, is one of the things I've always found interesting about this site: a whole lot of folks get all worked up in either justifying themselves, defending a claim, proving something, or otherwise trying to bring validity to some espoused position.

Sure, I like to intellectually spar but, at the end of the day, there's nothing anyone can say or do here that threatens my core or fundamental belief system. I know what I know, know what I don't know, and understand there are some things that I'll never know.

"The Truth," if you actually know/believe it, isn't something that can be externally modified (unless, of course, you do NOT actually possess it!).

Foe the record, those who are threatened the most are, likely, the least "Native."