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Old 08-29-2006, 06:04 PM   #41
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Emmy hit it on the nose

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmy
because somewhere some1 read that a lost tribe down south was blackfoot. i hear it alot when ever some tells me they r black foot i ask them: apakuni, siksika, or kainai? they end up sayin the one from down there and i say none of them. then they get mad and walk away.
That is very true! And the greatest way to handle it. So right on! That is like all the "wanna-be" Cherokee Tribes out there, I just simply correct them that there are only 3 Cherokee Nations. And all the others are fake, and if people want to learn "their history or culture" then to go to these people.
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Old 08-29-2006, 06:13 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Str8Dancer49
ok.... here's another 2 cents....

As a way to explain the number of mixed people out east, Sixsapaha said: "In the west, most tribes have had 150 years of contact with western civi. but on the east coast, it's mosre like 500, remeber James Town."

Let's clarify a few details here.... sustained contact has only lasted for 400 years in most of the Atlantic US...... And yeah, I remember Jamestown.... it was founded in 1610s, so that's actually LESS than 400 years.

AND.... here in the SW, there has been sustained contact with Euros and other colonists since Coronado came through between 1538-1541, so that's 450 years of Euro contact out in the "West" which Sixsapaha said has only had 150 years of contact.

MOREOVER..... Here in the SW, after 450 years of contact, there are still PLENTY of FULLBLOOD Pueblos, Navajos, Apaches, Utes, Supais, Pimas, Tohono O'odams - I could go on and on naming tribes with high #'s of fullbloods, but you get the picture.

SOOOO.... # of years of contact obviously doesn't explain jack when it comes to new-age, hippy-trippy wannabeeeeees claiming to be "Cherokee and Blackfoot."
Right on! I for one am sick of these "hookey" "wannabee" people claiming to be Cherokee's that think they can start their own tribes and hold "Green Corn" and "Stomp Dances" in someones back yard. I believe it is time to put an end to it. To stand up for ourselves. And I think we are doing a good job at it. Despite all the "Wannabe" Cherokee's(and everything else) we are still a thriving cultural people.

I personally just hate it when other Native people don't believe any "real Cherokee" people exist. And just think we are all a joke of a nation.

Just my few cents...maybe a little more than two...more like five..
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Old 08-29-2006, 06:33 PM   #43
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Whoa... let's be clear here. There are many Cherokee freedmen who are Cherokee by blood. Some of the Freedmen have upwards of 1/4 or so Cherokee blood. Those individuals who were 1/2 Black and 1/2 Cherokee were put on the Freedmen Roll by virtue of their phenotype; their Cherokee blood was not recorded!

So, let's not say that all Freedmen are Black individuals with no Cherokee blood; that's a falsehood perpetrated by the CNO to disenfranchise a voting block. The Cherokee-Shawnee and the Cherokee-Delaware were incorporated into the Cherokee Nation as were the Cherokee Freedmen.
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Old 08-29-2006, 06:42 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiss_My_Grits!!
Whoa... let's be clear here. There are many Cherokee freedmen who are Cherokee by blood. Some of the Freedmen have upwards of 1/4 or so Cherokee blood. Those individuals who were 1/2 Black and 1/2 Cherokee were put on the Freedmen Roll by virtue of their phenotype; their Cherokee blood was not recorded!

So, let's not say that all Freedmen are Black individuals with no Cherokee blood; that's a falsehood perpetrated by the CNO to disenfranchise a voting block. The Cherokee-Shawnee and the Cherokee-Delaware were incorporated into the Cherokee Nation as were the Cherokee Freedmen.

Kiss-My,

You're right. There ARE freedmen with legitimate Indian ancestors.

However I do stand by my statement, "There are decendents of black slaves who have no Indian blood, whose ancestors signed some federal roles as well."
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Old 08-29-2006, 08:31 PM   #45
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Yes, but if we are talking about legitimate descendants of Cherokee Freedmen (and not those individuals who are Black and claim to be descended from Cherokee) then they were adopted into the Cherokee Nation in the Cherokee Constitution of 1866. Read below:

ARTICLE 9.

The Cherokee Nation having, voluntarily, in February, eighteen hundred and sixty-three, by an act of the national council, forever abolished slavery, hereby covenant and agree that never hereafter shall either slavery or involuntary servitude exist in their nation otherwise than in the punishment of crime, whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, in accordance with laws applicable to all the members of said tribe alike. They further agree that all freedmen who have been liberated by voluntary act of their former owners or by law, as well as all free colored persons who were in the country at the commencement of the rebellion, and are now residents therein, or who may return within six months, and their descendants, shall have all the rights of native Cherokees: Provided, That owners of slaves so emancipated in the Cherokee Nation shall never receive any compensation or pay for the slaves so emancipated.


So, maybe there are Freedmen descendents who don't possess any Indian blood but they are nonetheless politically/constitutionally Cherokee. From 1866 to 1976, they were identified as members of the Cherokee Nation; they were members of the Cherokee Nation well before there was a Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma.
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Old 08-29-2006, 08:47 PM   #46
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All this talk about the mail order DNA testing to prove that someone is X% Indian (or whatever) got me thinking..... and after digging out old notes from evolution and genetics classes and thumbing through my wife's current genetics notes and textbooks, I must say that DNA testing like that offered by these mail order companies is based purely on JUNK PSEUDO-SCIENCE and a COMPLETE FAILURE TO UNDERSTNAD THE BIOLOGICAL MECHANISMS OF GENETIC TRANSMISSION. In short, those test don't prove JACK!

Here's why.... let's take a classic example from high school genetics (if you didn't get this in high school, you can blame your Republican, right-wing, Christian supremacist elected officials for butchering our nation's educational system and substituting Judeo-Christian creationist dogma instead - not really anything new for NDNs, eh?) OK... look in the mirror at your earlobes. Geneticists have found that a single allele (a.k.a. "a gene") determines whether your earlobes are "detached" or "attached." Morover, "detached" earlobes are the dominant gene. So, lets say that both parents of a hypothetical kid have "detached" earlobes - however, little do they know, they carry genes for both, it's just that the "detached" gene is dominant. So mom has D and A genes, and dad has D and A genes..... their kid has a 25% chance of being a "pureblood" "detached" earlobe person, with 2 D genes; the kid has a 50% chance of having the same genetic D and A combo as mom and dad; BUT, the kid has a 25% chance of having "attached" earlobes due to a A and A genetic makeup. Any subsequent kids would have the same chances of getting whatever genetic combination.... and here's the kicker.... two siblings could have completely different genetic makeups - one could be a DD earlobe kid and the other could be an AA earlobe person.

The point here is that genetics is a vastly complicated thing that can't really be boiled down into a strict percentage. To assume that a person who is the child of a "fullblood" Indian and a "fulblood" white person will display in their own genetic makeup exactly 50% of their genes from each parent just really doesn't mesh with the facts of how genetic transmission works. It's really seductive to think that 50% + 50% = a whole person, but that simplified mathematical formula doesn't account for the realities of the mind-boggling array of genetic variation on this planet.

Moreover, what is the "control" group that these mail order labs are using? Who exactly is the quintessential full-blood to which everyone else is compared? Might there be some secrets or sources of genetic mixing in that person's family tree that he/she didn't know about? How did that lab get ahold of that particular genetic material anyway? Did they swipe it from some multinational biotechnology coorporation that's trying to patent the genetic make-up of some Amazonian Native? If my son's genetic makeup is too close to that "patented" genetic sequence, am I gonna get sued for havin' sex? That might seem like I'm being flippant about this, but this kind of "bio-genetic piracy" is really happening..... just a couple of years ago the Univ of AZ got caught up in a big flap over this exact thing.

My whole long, drawn out point here is that those mail-order DNA tests DON'T PROVE SH!T!!! They are just taking advantage of people who didn't stay awake in their high school and college science classes. As such, those DNA test don't tell us ANYTHING about this whole mysterious "Cherokee and Blackfoot" identity that some hippy-trippy freaks invented for themselves.
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Old 08-29-2006, 11:39 PM   #47
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Pardon me while I cut and paste from a previous post of mine:

In these ancestry tests DNA - tmDNA (mitochondrial DNA) from the maternally inherited mitochondria or Y-chromosome (strict male line descent) nuclear DNA -- is extracted from the cells scraped from the mouth. Polymerase chain reaction (PCR) gene amplification is used to create an analyzable sample. In PCR enzyme polymerase and fluorescent-dye tagged DNA bases are mixed with the source DNA. This is allowed to react, creating millions of copies of the original DNA. The strands are separated by size and the florescence signatures of the individual bases in the replicated chains are measured base by base with a laser and a computer. This allows the code to be read from the genes. Specific sequences mark different areas of the DNA, allowing the scientist to determine which part of which gene is being examined.

One of the practical upshots of the discovery of PCR amplification technology is the development of automated machines which can do this with little human attention and rapidly, producing huge quantities of data about the genetic code. Part of the Human Genome project has been vast sampling efforts designed to correlate various genes with various characteristics. This along with DNA gathered from archeological sources (Got to get that genetic material from robbed graves since they didn't get to whack a sample off the living *Grumble grumble*) has permitted large-scale statistical studies, which have -- with no small amount of controversy -- uncovered population specific sequences. These are what are being used here.

Now, these statistical analyses are influenced by numerous factors, including sample size, specimen provenance. Also there are scientific points upon which there is less than overwhelming agreement.

Now because types of DNA being used it is my understanding (and please correct me if I am wrong) that these tests have specific blind spots. This ain't Medelev and his peas. These types of DNA are used because they avoid the confusing scrambling of sex. mtDNA is provided only by female's gametes, therefore if your lone Native ancestor is male forget it, no markers. Ditto if your mom is Asian, European or African; you could be 1/2 blood quanta and yet have non-Native mtDNA markers. The Y-chromosome typing is even less inclusive. Y's are only from the male's gametes and then only found in "male-gendered" gametes. Therefore, if you are female and have no living male relatives and Dad was Native you're out of luck.


Now there is another test which determines percents of certain halotypes which are associated with certain groups. The distributions used to determine geographic origins is based on the huge sampling efforts that have been part of the Human Genome project.

But you tell me: What part of culture is genetic? I have real-live Ndn genes (real-live Ndn jeans, too) but I don't speak my language; therefore I am missing a huge piece of my culture. Does religion have a genetic component? If so I want better premarital genetic screening, LOL. Is my biochemistry my destiny? So you pay your $$$ and you get your results, does that make you feel real?

Tribal membership is a matter of tribal sovereignty. It is imperative that tribes have the right to determine membership and membership criterion. If preserving my people as a cultural and political entity requires that acculturated Indians like me be excluded, than so be it. I'd rather my children live in a world where my people are a strong and culturally distinctive people.
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Old 08-30-2006, 11:50 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiss_My_Grits!!
So, maybe there are Freedmen descendents who don't possess any Indian blood but they are nonetheless politically/constitutionally Cherokee. From 1866 to 1976, they were identified as members of the Cherokee Nation; they were members of the Cherokee Nation well before there was a Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma.

I have a definite problem with the US government documents signed by non-Indians, making them "political" Indians - regardless of tribe.

I think I share these same feelings with CNO Principal Chief Chad "Corntassel" Smith.

This is not a DNA issue. It's a sovereignty issue.

Time will tell if the Cherokee referendum vote allows nonIndian freedmen on their roles?
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Old 08-30-2006, 12:26 PM   #49
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Post WhoME

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Originally Posted by WhoMe
You're right Stands,

I'm not sure about your statement that an anthropologist can determine what ancestral tribe you are.

For instance, there is not an antropologist alive that can tell somebody they are definitely "Cherokee/Blackfoot."

I do know that it is the tribe's themselves that determine who is in their membership... and who is not.


WhoME, a chief of Waccamaw told me about the anthropologist thing. I agree with you though on the tribe determine who is and who is not in their membership.
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Old 08-30-2006, 01:02 PM   #50
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Angry

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe
I certainly wouldn't want any non-Indians whose ancestors signed a paper on my tribal roles. Would you?

No, I would not want non-Natives and their ancestors signed a paper on my tribal rolls. Only people with NATIVE BLOOD and can prove it by DNA can sign.

What was so funny is that non-Natives said that they are Native American (through adoption or marriage) and they are really not by blood. Adopted natives need to stop lying to themselves, and be true to themselves. I will give you a prime example.

The actress Jeanne Cooper from Young & the Restless. Her and parents were considered and called themselves Cherokee because they were born in the Cherokee Reservation - and they don't have an inch of Native blood. They are carded, including Jeanne's children and grandchildren.

It is ashame that today non-Natives can get carded. However, the people who have Native blood and prove it cannot get a tribal card because they do not have enough blood quantum to enroll. This is my frustration today.
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Old 08-30-2006, 01:30 PM   #51
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The problem lies in the fact that since the Freedmen's Cherokee blood was not recorded at the times of the Dawes Commission then you don't know which Freedmen have Cherokee blood and which do not. I would say there are more Freedmen who have Cherokee blood than there are not. Some of these Freedmen are descendents of John Ross but they are being denied membership. Unfortunately, I know of individuals who have ancestors on the Freedmen list and the Cherokee by Blood list who were denied enrollment into the Cherokee Nation even though their parents and grandparents were enrolled members.

Additionally, those who were also incorporated into the Cherokee Nation were Whites. There are full-blooded White people who have no problem obtaining membership with the Cherokee Nation. I think Smith is afraid of what the full force of the Freedmen voting block may do to him; again, the Freedmen and their descendents were accepted members of the Cherokee community until 1976. Some spoke (some still do) the language fluently and participate at our stomp grounds. For all intents and purposes, they are Cherokee. They are just as much "Cherokee" as the Osage, Quapaw, Creek, Shawnee, Delaware Indians who were adopted into the community. Being Cherokee isn't just a racial identity but its also a political one; I can accept that there are political Cherokees because our ancestors adopted these guys into our tribe and gave them the same rights reserved for Cherokees.

I respect your disagreement with tribes that allow non-Natives to become members of their community; I think it is the tribe's sovereign right to do so. There are many tribes today that allow non-Natives and Natives of different nations to become members of their community.

I know of instances within the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma and the Eastern Band when people bought their way onto the rolls. I believe these people and descendents should not hold any rights to the community and any services provided for by the tribes.
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Old 08-30-2006, 02:00 PM   #52
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Well said Kiss_My_Grits and I agree with everything that you said. Thank you for respecting my disagreement; I needed to get things off of my chest quick lol. Everybody on here have make good points.
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Old 08-30-2006, 04:35 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe
I have a definite problem with the US government documents signed by non-Indians, making them "political" Indians - regardless of tribe.

I think I share these same feelings with CNO Principal Chief Chad "Corntassel" Smith.

This is not a DNA issue. It's a sovereignty issue.

Time will tell if the Cherokee referendum vote allows nonIndian freedmen on their roles?
I agree. The Nation should decide! And as a Cherokee citizen and former employee of CNO Washington Office, I firmly believe that citizens should be by blood.
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Old 08-30-2006, 05:17 PM   #54
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I'm a member of the United Keetoowah Band. As a member of the Cherokee Nation (not Cherokee Nation of OK), I believe that the Freedmen, Cherokee-Shawnee, Cherokee-Delaware, and all other Natives who have been intergrated into the tribe should be recognized as members of the Cherokee Nation.

Additionally, when you say that citizens should be by blood, do you mean they should be Cherokee by blood? Cuz if that's the case, then citizenship should not be extended to the Cherokee-Shawnee and the Cherokee-Delaware but it is and has been for generations.

The problem with the CNO is that the Nation (as in the people) did not decide! A few members of the government decided to disenfranchise the Freedmen descendents contrary to the wishes of the Cherokee people. It was an illegal act, the Cherokee courts realize this, and that is why there is so much controversy involved.

The Cherokee Freedmen descendents have as much right to claim Cherokee citizenship (CNO) as any person who is 1/256th Cherokee, never has lived in or visited Oklahoma, and has no current kinship ties to any families in the jurisdiction. Many of the Cherokee Freedmen descendents were born in OK, were raised around Cherokee and were recognized as being Cherokee.
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Old 08-30-2006, 05:30 PM   #55
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Yikes, this is getting to technical for me....I got lost in all that. Anyway, my tribe, may parents' tribes and my husband's tribe determines enrollment by the geneology that can be legally proved by documentation (birth certificates, etc). I know at Prairie Island you have to have a DNA test done to prove that John or Jane is your child before they will be considered for enrollment, provided you are already an enrolled member.
When it comes to money, casinos, benefits(though why anyone believes we "have it easy" is beyond me. LOL), etc...everyone wants to be an indian. It's too bad that documentation isn't always what it should be when it comes to proving a false claim. I bet if alot of the people" walked a mile in our moccasins", they wouldn't be so determined to be a real indian because to be a real indian you have to have a true heart, spiritually....I don't know about you, but I know a phony when I see, hear or talk to one. LOL
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Old 08-30-2006, 06:55 PM   #56
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hippy - trippy freak

well I started this conversation as a way to explain that Iam not a hippy-trippy freak, and that I did not invent the name or term " Blackfoot Cherokee"!
As for dna affialiating tribe, I wouldn't know but it does define family and family expanded would define a distinct group of people!
AS for the Hippy remark, name calling is really small, so just to let ya'll know, if you call me anything how about just HUMAN!,
NO Iam not a "full blood white person", I am not "ethnically challenged" nor am I a "born again heathen"!
Perhaps I am from one of those "watzitt2ya" tribes I see mentioned.
The point is there are real people with this tribal designation that have native blood, so kick it around some more but I can tell you that I am not going anywhere.
The Cherokee folks can only speak for themselves and hopefully they will lead the way, they always have in the past!
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Old 08-30-2006, 07:54 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Kiss_My_Grits!!
I'm a member of the United Keetoowah Band. As a member of the Cherokee Nation (not Cherokee Nation of OK), I believe that the Freedmen, Cherokee-Shawnee, Cherokee-Delaware, and all other Natives who have been intergrated into the tribe should be recognized as members of the Cherokee Nation.

Additionally, when you say that citizens should be by blood, do you mean they should be Cherokee by blood? Cuz if that's the case, then citizenship should not be extended to the Cherokee-Shawnee and the Cherokee-Delaware but it is and has been for generations.

The problem with the CNO is that the Nation (as in the people) did not decide! A few members of the government decided to disenfranchise the Freedmen descendents contrary to the wishes of the Cherokee people. It was an illegal act, the Cherokee courts realize this, and that is why there is so much controversy involved.

The Cherokee Freedmen descendents have as much right to claim Cherokee citizenship (CNO) as any person who is 1/256th Cherokee, never has lived in or visited Oklahoma, and has no current kinship ties to any families in the jurisdiction. Many of the Cherokee Freedmen descendents were born in OK, were raised around Cherokee and were recognized as being Cherokee.

I see your viewpoint, and I agree the decision should be made by the citizens. I also believed that the Delaware and Shawnee should have the right to have their own nations and not have to be under CNO anymore. I have a lot of respect for UKB. And I agree with the 1/256 opinion as well. Wado tsunali.
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Old 08-31-2006, 12:22 AM   #58
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So whatever happened to the Blackfoot aspect of this topic?
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Old 08-31-2006, 12:25 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OLChemist
Pardon me while I cut and paste from a previous post of mine:

In these ancestry tests DNA - tmDNA (mitochondrial DNA) from the maternally inherited mitochondria or Y-chromosome (strict male line descent) nuclear DNA -- is extracted from the cells scraped from the mouth. Polymerase chain reaction (PCR) gene amplification is used to create an analyzable sample. In PCR enzyme polymerase and fluorescent-dye tagged DNA bases are mixed with the source DNA. This is allowed to react, creating millions of copies of the original DNA. The strands are separated by size and the florescence signatures of the individual bases in the replicated chains are measured base by base with a laser and a computer. This allows the code to be read from the genes. Specific sequences mark different areas of the DNA, allowing the scientist to determine which part of which gene is being examined.

One of the practical upshots of the discovery of PCR amplification technology is the development of automated machines which can do this with little human attention and rapidly, producing huge quantities of data about the genetic code. Part of the Human Genome project has been vast sampling efforts designed to correlate various genes with various characteristics. This along with DNA gathered from archeological sources (Got to get that genetic material from robbed graves since they didn't get to whack a sample off the living *Grumble grumble*) has permitted large-scale statistical studies, which have -- with no small amount of controversy -- uncovered population specific sequences. These are what are being used here.

Now, these statistical analyses are influenced by numerous factors, including sample size, specimen provenance. Also there are scientific points upon which there is less than overwhelming agreement.

Now because types of DNA being used it is my understanding (and please correct me if I am wrong) that these tests have specific blind spots. This ain't Medelev and his peas. These types of DNA are used because they avoid the confusing scrambling of sex. mtDNA is provided only by female's gametes, therefore if your lone Native ancestor is male forget it, no markers. Ditto if your mom is Asian, European or African; you could be 1/2 blood quanta and yet have non-Native mtDNA markers. The Y-chromosome typing is even less inclusive. Y's are only from the male's gametes and then only found in "male-gendered" gametes. Therefore, if you are female and have no living male relatives and Dad was Native you're out of luck.


Now there is another test which determines percents of certain halotypes which are associated with certain groups. The distributions used to determine geographic origins is based on the huge sampling efforts that have been part of the Human Genome project.

But you tell me: What part of culture is genetic? I have real-live Ndn genes (real-live Ndn jeans, too) but I don't speak my language; therefore I am missing a huge piece of my culture. Does religion have a genetic component? If so I want better premarital genetic screening, LOL. Is my biochemistry my destiny? So you pay your $$$ and you get your results, does that make you feel real?

Tribal membership is a matter of tribal sovereignty. It is imperative that tribes have the right to determine membership and membership criterion. If preserving my people as a cultural and political entity requires that acculturated Indians like me be excluded, than so be it. I'd rather my children live in a world where my people are a strong and culturally distinctive people.
I absolutely love reading OL Chemist's posts. I get so lost trying to read them, I have to go lay down for an hour!

You always make a good point with your posts.
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Old 08-31-2006, 12:32 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ADcRezFamily
I see your viewpoint, and I agree the decision should be made by the citizens. I also believed that the Delaware and Shawnee should have the right to have their own nations and not have to be under CNO anymore. I have a lot of respect for UKB. And I agree with the 1/256 opinion as well. Wado tsunali.
I also agree that the Delaware and Shawnee should have the right to have their own nations. I have friends who are Delaware; some wish to maintain affiliation with the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma and others have left to join other Delaware bands.

Cherokee politics is a very complicated subject.

I apologize for drifting off on the subject of this thread. I have met a few Blacks who claim to be Blackfeet and others who have claimed to be Crow. I don't know but my guess is that those who claim to be Crow did so because crows are black. I've been told that there was a band of Saponi called Blackfoot and that those who claim to be descended from the Blackfoot people are actually Saponi.

The truth is, I think most Blacks have some Native ancestry; doesn't mean that they are Native, just means that somewhere back in the ancestry, a Native had relations with a Black or White person. When I meet a Black person who says that they have some Native blood, I'll listen; when they say they are Cherokee, my eyebrow arches a wee bit. Its a possibility but I can't help but wonder why I don't meet people who are Catawba, Euchee, Houma or another southeastern Nation. I once met a girl who said that she was a part Tunica-Biloxi and I gotta say, I believed her.
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