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Old 08-31-2006, 06:41 PM   #61
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Talking the folks you don't meet

Well now there's a good question for this thread.
The Tunica Biloxi people are a really small group, but they have moved around a bit, the Houmas are a mixed group of people, and they'll tell you that themselves, they've had several off shoot groups and are really scattered, Katrina hit them hard but many are heading home.
The Catawba people have always been around Rock Hill, except when they moved to Cherokee. NC, but there is a small community "out west" and they are still considered Catawba by the Rock Hill people.
The Euchee people were from Ga, and there are people there with aspects of Euchee culture, I have heard traditional stories from some of the Ga people and were exactly Euchee!
So to answer your question , maybe you just don't get out as often as you should!
The reason why so many people claim Cherokee blood, combined with other groups is because they are the 2nd or 3rd largest Nation(s) officially in the USA today.
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Old 08-31-2006, 08:57 PM   #62
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Well thank you for pointing out how large my nation is; you'd be surprised to learn that I actually knew that we are considered the largest tribe due to the amount of people claiming to be Cherokee. Note- most of the censuses where these numbers show up are censuses where people can write in what nation they think they are. They aren't required to prove it so people write down whatever they want. I could list my tribal affiliation as Cree if I wanted to and I wouldn't be accountable to anyone.

I believe you missed the point of my post. My point was that many people claim to be Cherokee but I doubt that they are, in fact, Cherokee. When it comes to Black Americans, most have origins in the southern states thus the possibility of a Black ancestor connecting with an southeastern Indian is highly likely. However, there are many more southeastern tribes out there besides Cherokee.

I think many have grasped onto the Cherokee in ignorance; I won't dispute that they have Indian blood but I doubt many know which tribe they are descended from. There are many southeastern tribes, I had listed but a few; I think that if people actually do the research, and I'm not saying just family stories, then they'll learn that they may be descended from some other nation. I've seen it frequently enough on this site, alone. Someone shows up stating they are Cherokee but on further research they discover connections to another tribe, entirely.
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Old 09-01-2006, 12:08 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiss_My_Grits!!
Well thank you for pointing out how large my nation is; you'd be surprised to learn that I actually knew that we are considered the largest tribe due to the amount of people claiming to be Cherokee. Note- most of the censuses where these numbers show up are censuses where people can write in what nation they think they are. They aren't required to prove it so people write down whatever they want. I could list my tribal affiliation as Cree if I wanted to and I wouldn't be accountable to anyone.

I believe you missed the point of my post. My point was that many people claim to be Cherokee but I doubt that they are, in fact, Cherokee. When it comes to Black Americans, most have origins in the southern states thus the possibility of a Black ancestor connecting with an southeastern Indian is highly likely. However, there are many more southeastern tribes out there besides Cherokee.

I think many have grasped onto the Cherokee in ignorance; I won't dispute that they have Indian blood but I doubt many know which tribe they are descended from. There are many southeastern tribes, I had listed but a few; I think that if people actually do the research, and I'm not saying just family stories, then they'll learn that they may be descended from some other nation. I've seen it frequently enough on this site, alone. Someone shows up stating they are Cherokee but on further research they discover connections to another tribe, entirely.
Where does the term 'Cherokee'Blackfoot' originate? What geographical area are the 'Cherokee/Blackfoot' located. I lived in NC many years and never could get an answer as to where 'Blackfoot' tribe was in the southeast. Oh, except Singerdad's explanation.
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Old 09-01-2006, 02:00 AM   #64
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Honestly, I am confused at to what has been said regarding the Cherokee/Blackfeet people. Are they saying this group is like the Kiowa-Apache?
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Old 09-01-2006, 09:53 AM   #65
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In relation to Blackfoot - Blackfeet/Cherokee - in reality there is no tribe of such

but tribes did mingle and as most know Blackfoot - and the Blackfeet are two completely different Tribes....

Now there are some folks here and about that are of Cherokee and something i.e.: Lakota, shawnee, tuscarora, catawba, Dine' - but this mostly came about during times of the boarding school, as most met at boarding school

we have a winnebago/sioux/w & e cherokee/catawba/oneida person but this goes back to when their - grt - grandparents were in school not his parents.... but through his parents, parents, parents... did this mix come about

but just because someone's skin tone dosen't match what people feel to be a native, does not make them less, maybe they just don't know or have been told something else about their bloodline

but as stated before there are more southeastern tribes than just the Cherokee we are just more convienent to use

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Old 09-01-2006, 10:56 AM   #66
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I think there are two plausible explanations:

1. I've read that some of the South Carolina tribes claim to be Sioux bands. I know there is a Blackfoot/Blackfeet band of Lakota on the Standing Rock reservation so it could be that one of the bands that moved east was a faction of this band.

2. The more likely explanation is that they are Saponi. Again, I was told that there was a village of Saponi which was called Tutelo or Tupelo or something along those lines. I believe the translation of "Tutelo" was Blackfeet. So, when people say they are Blackfeet, they may just be descendents of the people from this village.

On a hunch, I decided to google Cherokee/Blackfeet and see what may turn up. I found this website:

http://www.cherokeeblackfeet.org/

Now, when I think of any possible connection to the Blackfeet out in the southeast, I think of North and South Carolina. But this group is based in New York! I am not sure about the rules regarding quotes from websites so I will paraphrase what I've read there. Their "chief" is trying to recruit Blacks into their tribe by saying since Blacks can't identify with their African roots then they should identify with their Indian roots. There is an even a section about the southeastern Blackfeet.

But, I still can't figure out if they are saying the Cherokee/Blackfeet are a seperate nation or if they are saying there are many Cherokee and Blackfeet descendents in the southeast.
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Old 09-01-2006, 11:10 AM   #67
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The Sioux blood claims of the southeast is b/c of the siouan based language systems that were spoken down here, not Sioux blood

but when one hears "oh that's siouan" most think oh they are Sioux - completely different aspects

one on language one of a tribe.....
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Old 09-01-2006, 11:48 AM   #68
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Sixsahapa, which other two is the largest Tribal Nation besides Cherokee? I thought that Cherokee was always the #1 largest tribe - I'm shock!

A lot of you make good point. The discussion on this thread is getting very interesting and I am learning something new everyday; for I want more wisdom.
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Old 09-01-2006, 11:52 AM   #69
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Actually, the tribe I'm thinking of goes way beyond being "Siouan." They are teaching their members the Dakota Sioux language.

The Santee Indian Tribe:

http://santeebeadman.tripod.com/id1.html

The Santee Indians are one of the oldest tribes of Indians, if not the oldest tribe of Indians, to inhabit the state of South Carolina. The Santee are a Siouan people who speak the "D" and"L" Siouan Lanuage.

The Osage are a Siouan people but they speak their own language. The Ponca are a Siouan people but they speak their own language. These folks are teaching their members the D/L Sioux dialect.

Why teach those specific dialects if your nation is just "Siouan" in nature?
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Old 09-01-2006, 12:07 PM   #70
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Kissmygrits - you'll have to ask a Siouan speaker about that

not that I'm a know it all - but it looks like you are asking two different things
one about language
two about nation

linguists can break down a language and tell the similarities of base language (siouan)
and teaching base language on certain aspects like the d/l would be like the Cherokee's overhill/western dialects - same language different speech patterns and usuage, and ennuciation
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Old 09-01-2006, 12:39 PM   #71
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According to the 2000 census:

nearly 3/4 of a million self-identify as Cherokee,
well over a 1/4 million as Dine',
nearly 160,000 as Choctaw,
nearly 155,000 as "Sioux",
nearly 150,000 as Asshinabe (sp)

http://www.census.gov/statab/www/sa04aian.pdf
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Old 09-01-2006, 01:17 PM   #72
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Perhaps I am not articulating myself that well; when you read the Santee of South Carolina's history, they make it explicit that they consider themselves to be of the Santee Dakota Sioux. They aren't claiming to be just Siouan but to be actual Dakota Sioux.

In the beginning the Santee Indian People, which are the Dakota Sioux, originated in what is known today as South Carolina.

So, this goes back to one of my original possibilities. Some of the South Carolina nations (the Santee) believe themselves to be Sioux bands (Santee Dakota) so it could be that just as the Santee Sioux are in South Carolina, the Blackfeet Lakota (or Dakota, sorry, not sure which) could also have found their way to North and South Carolina.
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Old 09-01-2006, 01:45 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiss_My_Grits!!
I think Smith is afraid of what the full force of the Freedmen voting block may do to him; again, the Freedmen and their descendents were accepted members of the Cherokee community until 1976. ...They are just as much "Cherokee" as the Osage, Quapaw, Creek, Shawnee, Delaware Indians who were adopted into the community. Being Cherokee isn't just a racial identity but its also a political one; I can accept that there are political Cherokees because our ancestors adopted these guys into our tribe and gave them the same rights reserved for Cherokees.

KissMY,

I don't think Chief Smith is afraid. He just would like to insure the membership of the Cherokee Nation has some degree of Indian blood. His proposal to bring this issue to the Cherokee voters is planned for 2007.

He said Cherokee voters barred Freedmen from citizenship when they approved a new tribal constitution in 1975.
"Many Cherokees, including those who wrote the constitution in 1975, believed that Cherokee voters understood that a vote to approve the 1975 constitution would exclude Freedmen from citizenship," Smith said in his address made to the tribal council on March 13. "Many of those voting to exclude the Freedmen believe that an Indian nation should be composed of Indians."
Smith said he wasn't excluding anyone -- African-American or otherwise -- who can demonstrate he or she has Indian blood as recorded by the Dawes Roll. "They're unquestionably entitled to Cherokee Nation citizenship," he told the council.

___


On a different subject, The Delaware Tribe of Indians (located in Bartlesville, OK) was recently stripped of their federal recognition and are now technically Cherokee.

They do not want to be Delaware Cherokees and would like to have their individual Delaware federal recognition reinstated so that they can continue to be a separate-soverign-nation. They have already appealed this loss of recognition and lost. They recently sold their tribal headquarters in hopes of continuing to regain their federal status.
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Old 09-01-2006, 02:11 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiss_My_Grits!!
Actually, the tribe I'm thinking of goes way beyond being "Siouan." They are teaching their members the Dakota Sioux language.

The Santee Indian Tribe:

http://santeebeadman.tripod.com/id1.html

The Santee Indians are one of the oldest tribes of Indians, if not the oldest tribe of Indians, to inhabit the state of South Carolina. The Santee are a Siouan people who speak the "D" and"L" Siouan Lanuage.

The Osage are a Siouan people but they speak their own language. The Ponca are a Siouan people but they speak their own language. These folks are teaching their members the D/L Sioux dialect.

Why teach those specific dialects if your nation is just "Siouan" in nature?

KissMy,

Language families can be separated by thousands of miles.

The Souian language speakers are one example. The Souian language Family is among the largest North American Native language families. It includes such diverse tribes as:

Western Siouan Languages
Missouri Valley Siouan Languages:
Crow
Hidatsa
Mississippi Valley Siouan Languages:
Mandan
Dakotan Languages:
Assiniboine (Nakota)
Stoney (Nakoda)
Dakota-Lakota
Dhegiha Languages:
Kansa
Omaha-Ponca
Osage
Quapaw (Alkansea)
Chiwerean Languages:
Chiwere (Iowa-Otoe-Missouria)
Ho-chunk (Winnebago)
Ohio Valley Siouan Languages:
Biloxi
Ofo (Ofogoula)
Tutelo (Saponi)
Eastern Siouan Languages (Catawban):
Catawba
Woccon

The Osage and Ponca CAN understand one another because they speak the Dhegiha Siouan dialect.

___


and, you're right...

The Catawba and Santee Dakota language IS similar.

I had a Catawba elder, who belonged to the Mormon Church, speak to my grandfather who was a fluent Dakota speaker to see if they could understand one another. I did this because I had also heard that the Catawba and Santee Dakota languages were similar.

The result was they both understood one another!
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Old 09-01-2006, 02:14 PM   #75
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I think we will disagree, WhoMe. That is a common misconception that many Cherokee voted back in to exclude the Freedmen. In fact, many Freedmen voted in 1975 for the Cherokee Constitution. The original enrollment language stated that all Dawes Enrollees and their descendents were entitled to membership into the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma. That meant that the Freedmen and their descendents were entitled to enroll as they were Dawes Enrollees and descendents. However, it was under the administration of Swimmer, nearly 10 years later that they began to say that the language meant that only descendents by Blood were entitled to enroll.

Some descendents of the Freedmen also are descended by individuals who were recorded as Cherokee by Blood but they too have had difficulty obtaining citizenship. I know of situations where siblings were split up- one being listed by Blood and the other as freedmen even though they have the same parentage. It is not as simple as saying that the Freedmen have no Cherokee blood; its been proven to the contrary, it was due to the "racist" expectations of the Dawes Commission that their Cherokee blood was not recorded.

Again, as long as the Delaware are part of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, they should be entitled to every right afforded to a Cherokee. Yes, I am aware that there are Delaware that wish to be apart from the CNO and I am also aware of the Shawnee's efforts. My stance is that as long as they are members of the Cherokee Nation then they are entitled to the same rights given to all Cherokee.

Anyways, this conversation has really detracted from the original post. I apologize because I am a huge reason for that. I will let this be my last post regarding the Cherokee Freedmen on this thread.
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Old 09-01-2006, 02:25 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhoMe
KissMy,

Language families can be separated by thousands of miles.
Yes, I am quite aware of that. The Cherokee language is an Iroquoian language- we were once part of the Seneca, the elders speak of this. But upon speaking to a Seneca friend, we saw some commonalities between the language but we couldn't understand each other.

The Osage and the Ponca may be able to understand each other but neither group calls their language Dakota or Lakota or Nakoda. The Osage have a name for their language and the Ponca have a name for their language.

But again, I am not talking about just a language family in regards to the Santee Indians of South Carolina. They are saying they are Santee Dakota. This isn't just about being part of the Siouan language group but them asserting that they are Dakota Sioux.

Quote:
and, you're right...

The Catawba and Santee Dakota language IS similar.

I had a Catawba elder, who belonged to the Mormon Church, speak to my grandfather who was a fluent Dakota speaker to see if they could understand one another. I did this because I had also heard that the Catawba and Santee Dakota languages were similar.

The result was they both understood one another!
My comments about Sioux bands being in South Carolina deals with trying to answer the question of how Blackfeet arrived in the southeast. I only threw out a possibility considering the history and migration stories told by some of the North and South Carolina tribes. The point being that if a band of the Santee Dakota Sioux made it out east then who's to say that a band of the Blackfeet Lakota didn't make it out there, as well.
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Old 09-01-2006, 02:46 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiss_My_Grits!!
The Osage and the Ponca may be able to understand each other but neither group calls their language Dakota or Lakota or Nakoda. The Osage have a name for their language and the Ponca have a name for their language..
No they don't call their language DN or L. But both the Osage and Ponca both acknowledge they speak the Dhegiha dialect of the Siouan Language.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiss_My_Grits!!
But again, I am not talking about just a language family in regards to the Santee Indians of South Carolina. They are saying they are Santee Dakota. This isn't just about being part of the Siouan language group but them asserting that they are Dakota Sioux.
There is a possibility, at one time the CATAWBA and Santee Dakota may have been one tribe. As I stated earlier, My grandfather was a full blooded Santee Dakota. He was a decendent of the Mdewakanton, and Wahpekute bands. The elder he spoke to and understood was a Catawba Indian from S. Carolina. If the Catawba claim they have ties to the Santee Dakota, then this could very well have some validity.

I cannot speak for "other" Southeastern groups of Siouan language speakers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiss_My_Grits!!
My comments about Sioux bands being in South Carolina deals with trying to answer the question of how Blackfeet arrived in the southeast. I only threw out a possibility considering the history and migration stories told by some of the North and South Carolina tribes. The point being that if a band of the Santee Dakota Sioux made it out east then who's to say that a band of the Blackfeet Lakota didn't make it out there, as well.

The Sihasapa (Blackfeet) are a subdivision of the Lakota. There is nothing to support that this band was ever in the Carolinas.



Now back to the main subject...


"Cherokee/Blackfoot are NEITHER a distinct tribe or a nation."


Now "Kiss MY Grits!" *L
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Last edited by WhoMe; 09-01-2006 at 03:03 PM..
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Old 09-01-2006, 03:11 PM   #78
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Okay, please clear this up for me. Are the Catawba the same as the Santee Indian Tribe of South Carolina? I'm working off the perception that they are two entirely different nations. I'm not speaking of the Catawba but you are. I recognize that. I am speaking of the Santee Indian Tribe of South Carolina who identify themselves as being Santee Dakota Sioux. They aren't saying that the Santee Language is just a siouan language along the lines of Osage and Ponca. They are saying they speak Dakota Sioux.

The Osage and Ponca speak a Siouan language but they have their own distinctive language and a name for themselves. Usually, when factions split up, they developed names for themselves seperate from the original group. As an example, the Apache (Nde), the Navajo (Dine), and the Dene.

Maybe I didn't make the distinction but:

There is a Santee Indian Tribe located in South Carolina and there is a Santee Dakota Tribe in Nebraska. The Santee Indians in South Carolina are essentially saying they are of the same nation as your Santee. To equate: like the Cherokee of Oklahoma to the Cherokee of North Carolina. One Nation of people divided by geography.

Please refer to the Santee Indian Tribe's website at: http://santeebeadman.tripod.com/id1.html.

Read their history which states that the Dakota people began in South Carolina and moved westwards. Some of those Santee that inhabited Minnesota returned to the original Santee homelands in South Carolina.

Now, maybe where we are talking over each other is that maybe you are saying you don't recognize the existence of the Santee Indian Tribe in South Carolina (which are a South Carolina recognized tribe, I believe)? I am not sure and it is not my intent to put words into your mouth. Or, maybe you are saying the Catawba are the same as the Santee Indian Tribe in South Carolina?

The two possibilities I brought up were an answer to Joe's Dad question as to where the name Cherokee/Blackfeet popped up.
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Old 09-01-2006, 04:15 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiss_My_Grits!!
Okay, please clear this up for me. Are the Catawba the same as the Santee Indian Tribe of South Carolina? .......They are saying they speak Dakota Sioux..
According to one source, the Santee Indians of SC, joined some Catawba when they moved emigrated to Oklahoma to live on Choctaw alloted lands.

There are no living fluent Santee language speakers today in South Carolina to confirm their language as being Dakota related.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiss_My_Grits!!
The Osage and Ponca speak a Siouan language but they have their own distinctive language and a name for themselves. Usually, when factions split up, they developed names for themselves seperate from the original group. As an example, the Apache (Nde), the Navajo (Dine), and the Dene. .
Yes, the Osage and Ponca have a name for themselves. However, the elders of the Osage and Ponca that I have interviewed both acknowledge speaking the Dhegiha dialect.

Even though the Apache and Navajo have names for themselves, their languages are similar to the Athabascan of Alaska and Tsu Tina of Alberta, Canada.

I was at an National Indian Education Association conference in Anchorage. During cultural night, the Athabascans did a dance and called the Apache and Navajo to dance with them one-at-a-time. As their names were called in their Athabascan song, they came up one at a time. First the Apache, then the Navajo to join the Alaskan Athabascans in their dance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiss_My_Grits!!
Maybe I didn't make the distinction but:

There is a Santee Indian Tribe located in South Carolina and there is a Santee Dakota Tribe in Nebraska. The Santee Indians in South Carolina are essentially saying they are of the same nation as your Santee. To equate: like the Cherokee of Oklahoma to the Cherokee of North Carolina. One Nation of people divided by geography.
To my knowledge, the Santee Sioux Tribe of Nebraska does not recognize the Santee Indian tribe of South Carolina in their history or any relationship.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiss_My_Grits!!
Now, maybe where we are talking over each other is that maybe you are saying you don't recognize the existence of the Santee Indian Tribe in South Carolina (which are a South Carolina recognized tribe, I believe)? I am not sure and it is not my intent to put words into your mouth. Or, maybe you are saying the Catawba are the same as the Santee Indian Tribe in South Carolina? .
Until I read your posts, "I never knew that a Santee Indian Tribe of South Carolina existed!" I did know that there were approximately 29 tribes that once called, what is now South Carolina, "home." But I certainly couldn't name each tribe. The majority of these 29 tribes are now virtually extinct.
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Old 09-01-2006, 04:58 PM   #80
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To answer someones questions way back; there currently is not a federally recognized BlackFoot Cherokee group, that is to say to my knowledge however in the future there could be since there are many people throughout the southeast and up as high as Ohio that do have a very good base for the claim.
Now I cannot speak or write for the New York people, but the Tutelo migration happened over several generations into the northeast from the NC, Va areas.
Aswell there is mention of Saponi this is said to be a atrophication of the word Asissipaha or something to that effect. I have heard that there are several Saponi and other closely related groups to them that do have members that did have the oral history of Blackfoot amogst them.
As for the Cherokee term applied there maybe blood there or not but like many people, I still believe that people searching for answers to family oral histories need to do research and to find records to substatiate the claim.
From what I have heard and read is that there is a Blackfoot Town MaryLand that pre dates 1750 and maybe a later settlement of the eastern Blackfoot or Sissipaha (various spellings).
I cannot speak for other groups or people having or using the term Blackfoot Cherokee, but perhaps like other groups these people may have used it loosely enough for it to be expropriated by them.
From my own genealogical search since this was mentioned here ealier as "demonstarating heritage,' yes I have done this type of search and have only found evidence to support the family history, geography etc.
Iam not claiming that Iam a full blood or even close just that I am a non native person with a native background, however how other people identify is thier buisness etc, so please understand when I speak of these things is that it is out of respect for my family and not trying to disrespect others.
The Catawba speaker has caught my interest, I was unaware that there still are Catawba speakers, I do know that they are trying to teach the Catawba dialect in school again.!
There's my 2 Lincolns
ps I still say check out the web site Saponi Town in order to get a better picture of where this comes from.

Last edited by sixsapaha; 09-01-2006 at 05:02 PM..
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