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Old 09-01-2006, 05:31 PM   #81
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Impressive research, everyone! Very enlightening as well. I am curious, if anyone knows the names and locations of the "orphanages" mentioned in this thread. I have found that all sorts of goings on occurred at these so called orphanages, that functioned as asylums and the like in those days. Wado for any information.
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Old 09-01-2006, 05:41 PM   #82
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Six,

Gaining Federal recognition for a tribe is a long and complicated process. Some tribes have been waiting 25 years to have their petitions heard. There are 7 criteria to pass in order to gain this recognition:

1. A group of Indians must have been identified as a group or community by people outside the tribe from 1900 to the present.

2. The petitioning entity must demonstrate it has maintained a continuous community from the time the tribe first had contact with non-Indians.

3. The petitioning group must demonstrate there are and have been leaders within the tribe who, over time, have influenced the behavior of other members. For example, leaders who resolved conflicts or helped decide an Indian building should be restored.

4. The petitioning group must submit a copy of its governing document, or, if it does not have one, a statement describing tribal membership criteria and the membership application process.

5. The petitioning entity must show that its current members are descendants of historic tribes or tribes that joined together as one political group.

6. The petitioning group must demonstrate that the majority of its members do not belong to another federally-recognized tribe.

7. The petitioning group must prove that it has never been terminate
d by legislation.



Do you think Cherokee/Blackfoot have enough evidence to pass these 7 criteria?

____

KissMy.

The Santee Indians of SC are not recognized by anyone other than themselves. *L Thus, they are an "organization."

On their website is the question, "Who Can Join" followed by:


"We are also looking for those people who are of "Native Heart" and are willing to follow the Red Road."


Hmmmmm?
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Old 09-01-2006, 05:50 PM   #83
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Well Like I said I cannot speak for anyone else,.
I do know that there are several groups that could possibly fit this criteria, several may represent complete towns or villages!
As for anyone person that claims this who knows, but I can tell you, I know who Iam and so does 90% of my family, but we don't want federal recognition.
I would suggest that rather than looking side ways at people with claims to Native ancestry, I just listen and keep moving, I cannot say who is who, and people are still people.
"If it's flavor it'll fade if it's meat it'll be there tomorrow"!
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Old 09-01-2006, 05:58 PM   #84
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Not recognized by anyone other than themselves? Odd, considering the South Carolina Indian Commission believes differently:

SANTEE INDIAN ORGANIZATION
State Recognized Tribe
Chief Roosevelt Scott
432 Bayview St..
Holly Hill, SC 29059
Phone: 803 496-7169


http://southcarolinaindianaffairs.com/members.html

Granted this may be a different organization than the one I listed before but it does appear that the Santee Indians are recognized within the state of South Carolina.

Anyways, it is not my place to say whether this group is legitimate or not. However, since you are Santee, you have a vested interest in whether this is a fraudalent organization that may be misrepresenting your tribal history.
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Old 09-01-2006, 06:00 PM   #85
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Question

Perhaps people who claim to be Cherokee/Blackfoot and Santee Indians of South Carolina are two reasons why dancers are asked for their tribal CDIB cards at powwows?


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Old 09-01-2006, 06:06 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiss_My_Grits!!
However, since you are Santee, you have a vested interest in whether this is a fraudalent organization that may be misrepresenting your tribal history.
KissMy,

It is much easier to get state tribal recognition than it is to get Federal recognition. In many cases there is a executive director of the State Indian Affairs Commission who simply signs a piece of paper to grant this recognition.

It perplexes me that the Santee Organization has gained state recognition and the Santee Indians of South Carolina have not? Hmmmm?



http://www.state.sc.us/cma/pdfs/maps_w_tribes.pdf
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Old 09-01-2006, 06:29 PM   #87
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Honestly, besides name, location, and leadership, I would bet that the Santee Organization and the Santee Indian Nation both are comprised of Santee Indians. One group of Santee has recognition and the other doesn't but it most likely does not negate the fact that within South Carolina, there is recognition for the Santee Indians.

Yes, I am well aware how easy it is for some tribes to obtain state recognition. There are numerous state recognized tribes and other tribes that say they are state recognized due to one governor or local state official signed some proclamation affirming that their group is operating. I believe that there are many legitimate state organized tribes such as the Lumbee, the Shinnecokes of NY, the Eastern Pequot, and the Mashpee Wampanoug. I think those commissions that just give recognition to any group does a disservice to those states that have had a continued relationship with their state's tribes.

Additionally, some of these overnight Cherokee tribes have inflicted a lot of harm onto us legitimate Cherokee. It is sad but there is a reason that the Cherokee are viewed as the laughing stock of Indian Country. There are tribes that I personally find questionable as a Cherokee. Someone once told me that there was a Cherokee group trying to obtain state recognition in New Jersey. I just shook my head.
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Old 09-01-2006, 06:35 PM   #88
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Remember the statement, that dna doesn't make you Indian!
I replied but "it does prove family" and extended family could be called a tribe, or something to that effect, well I have seen more than one state recognized group descending from one couple!
This who is and who isn't topic, often comes up, time can only tell.
In the first records and early maps of the southeast there was a Santee tribe.
I can't speak for anyone, but I do know that in the southeast there are many communities that are mixed native American groups and many only want to be left alone, others are looking for federal recognition, I will say this though, the people in the south have been really treated badly, and by standing up for themselves they start feeling better about who they are.
It's really odd though how some Nations have become federally recognized and others have not, those that didn't are still very much Indian even though they are mixed, one group I know of still speak thier native language while thier federal cousins are trying to get it back.
As for cards that doesn't make you Indian either.!
I ahve heard of this New Jersey group, really if there wasn't something in it to be gained by being a federally or state recognized group do you think that there would be so many of them?, I don't believe that all of these groups are or need to be recognized but some should, does anyone know who sits on the boards of that aprove these groups?
I can see why people get upset but I still think that taking things in stride is the best way to personally handle this issue.

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Old 09-01-2006, 06:39 PM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiss_My_Grits!!
... some of these overnight Cherokee tribes have inflicted a lot of harm onto us legitimate Cherokee. It is sad but there is a reason that the Cherokee are viewed as the laughing stock of Indian Country. There are tribes that I personally find questionable as a Cherokee. Someone once told me that there was a Cherokee group trying to obtain state recognition in New Jersey. I just shook my head.

KissMy,

There have been numerous Cherokee threads in the 4 years that I have been on powwows.com.

One thing I have learned is collectively,


"There are over 200 Cherokee groups and organizations in the United States."


Blackfoot Cherokees are one of these groups.
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Old 09-01-2006, 06:44 PM   #90
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I still say that you have to define the group not the individual, sometimes these new groups "creep me out" while others get a sympathetic ear. I can tell you because one group calls itself by a similar name as my families oral traditions and history only makes me cautious, and if there are several groups that could be related than prove it!

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Old 09-01-2006, 06:49 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixsapaha
In the first records and early maps of the southeast there was a Santee tribe.
Granted, there IS a Santee tribe and organization in South Carolina. But since there are no language speakers, there is no way to connect their claims to the Santee Dakota who live in Nebraska, South Dakota, Minnesota and Saskatchewan.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sixsapaha
... the people in the south have been really treated badly, and by standing up for themselves they start feeling better about who they are.
I can't think of a single tribe that has not been treated badly or is not trying to improve the quality of life for it's tribal members.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sixsapaha
As for cards that doesn't make you Indian either.

Cards don't make you Indian. But since they are issued by state and federally recognized tribes - CDIB cards DO make you a tribal member!
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Old 09-01-2006, 06:50 PM   #92
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COOL!
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Old 09-01-2006, 06:54 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixsapaha
COOL!

*L


Have a safe holiday weekend!
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Old 09-05-2006, 02:11 PM   #94
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Hey Folks I hope that everyone has had a great and safe Holiday weekend, can someone please tell me why you can have a CDIB card a treaty card and whatever card(s) you need to prove that you have native blood and others do not.
I personally know several if not hundreds of NON status Indian people that have no cards and they are clearly native.
Aswell many people feel that you can not prove Native American blood with a DNA test while the people doing the tests clearly state that you can.
If you can prove native blood with a dna test then can people or should peole be awarded a CDIB card?
IF not why, especially when family traditions are coraborated (sp) by the test.
Do you need to be a status person to hold a card?
When will mixed blood people from non recognized tribes be given the right to atleast ID, themselves.
In Canada the metis assc. used to have cards that stated this, and believe you did not gain anything from it other than to say that you were a person with native blood.
Non Status and no benefits just a card, perhaps the pow wow people might want to see such a card in the future.

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Old 09-05-2006, 07:01 PM   #95
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sixsapaha- A tribal enrollment card doesn't make someone an Indian, like Who Me said it makes you a tribal member. Being a tribal member isn't just an ethnic or racial identity, its a political identity. Tribal members are the only "minority" in the US who have this political identity because we are members of sovereign nations whose relationship with the US federal government was established through treaties and still exists today. This is why Indians are different than blacks, Hispanics, etc. Just because you have Indian blood or DNA, you aren't "rewarded with a CDIB" like you said. Its completely different, because you can be Indian and not be a tribal member.

Tribal member=citizen of a sovereign nation. Its like having a passport saying someone is Italian. You can be Italian-American, and no one will deny you have that Italian "DNA or blood", but you don't get "rewarded" with an Italian passport just because your great-grandma was an Italian princess :) Citizenship is a political matter, and Indian Nations have this same right of determining citizenship, just the same as Italy or any Nation.

My great-grandfather really was an Italian prince...well, he really was an Italian immigrant. Yet I have no Italian passport :-( I hope this analogy makes some sense to you.

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Old 09-06-2006, 01:32 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eap7
sixsapaha- A tribal enrollment card doesn't make someone an Indian, like Who Me said it makes you a tribal member. Being a tribal member isn't just an ethnic or racial identity, its a political identity. Tribal members are the only "minority" in the US who have this political identity because we are members of sovereign nations whose relationship with the US federal government was established through treaties and still exists today. This is why Indians are different than blacks, Hispanics, etc. Just because you have Indian blood or DNA, you aren't "rewarded with a CDIB" like you said. Its completely different, because you can be Indian and not be a tribal member.

Tribal member=citizen of a sovereign nation. Its like having a passport saying someone is Italian. You can be Italian-American, and no one will deny you have that Italian "DNA or blood", but you don't get "rewarded" with an Italian passport just because your great-grandma was an Italian princess :) Citizenship is a political matter, and Indian Nations have this same right of determining citizenship, just the same as Italy or any Nation.

My great-grandfather really was an Italian prince...well, he really was an Italian immigrant. Yet I have no Italian passport :-( I hope this analogy makes some sense to you.

eap7,

I couldn't have said it any better. Good job!!!



Six,

Hypothetically, let's say that someone took a DNA test and found out they were full blooded Indian/First Nation.


What tribe/nation would they be?
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Old 09-06-2006, 02:30 PM   #97
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Hey Thanx for the reply, and if you read some of my previous posts you'll see exactly what you have said, and replied to!, then why do so many people without cards get trashed.?
The "Blackfoot Cherokee" people are (in my families case)Eastern Siouan and Cherokee, but many people say "Oh they are just Black people" well some may be but like myself and my family we have no black blood, just Indian and white, what else do people want?, we are not status people but we are still Native Americans!
I think that cards are just another way so seperate people from a common goal and historical if not tribal background!
AS for the DNA our oral history tells us who we are and the DNA test proved it!
Anyway thanx for the reply!
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Old 09-06-2006, 03:41 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixsapaha
Hey Thanx for the reply, and if you read some of my previous posts you'll see exactly what you have said, and replied to!, then why do so many people without cards get trashed.?
The "Blackfoot Cherokee" people are (in my families case)Eastern Siouan and Cherokee, but many people say "Oh they are just Black people" well some may be but like myself and my family we have no black blood, just Indian and white, what else do people want?, we are not status people but we are still Native Americans!
I think that cards are just another way so seperate people from a common goal and historical if not tribal background!
AS for the DNA our oral history tells us who we are and the DNA test proved it!
Anyway thanx for the reply!

Six,

Okay. Granted you are a DNA Indian. Congratulations.


But "there is not a DNA tribe nor a historical Blackfoot Cherokee tribe."

There ARE however, people who are a mixture of Blackfeet/Blackfoot and Cherokee.
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Old 09-06-2006, 04:14 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixsapaha
then why do so many people without cards get trashed.?

I think that cards are just another way so seperate people from a common goal and historical if not tribal background!

AS for the DNA our oral history tells us who we are and the DNA test proved it!
Anyway thanx for the reply!
Hi six,
Lets go with the Italian metaphor again. I am 1/4 Italian because my grandfather's parents came from Italy. That's my DNA, and my oral history proves it too. But I don't speak Italian, I am not Catholic, I do not live in an Italian community, I have never been to Italy, and sadly I don't know how to cook those delicious Italian dishes! What if I wanted to move to Italy and become an Italian citizen?

What if I wanted to reclaim my Italian heritage, from DNA and oral history knowing I am part Italian, would the Italian gov't say "okay, sure, welcome as the newest Italian citizen!"? I doubt it. I'm sure you'd agree it would be silly for the Italians would accept me as one of them.

Being a citizen of an Indian Nation, or an Italian citizen, or American citizen, isn't just DNA and oral history of the past. Its being continuously a part of that culture in the present- that's what "tribal affiliation" means. You're connected and affiliated, just like your parent/parents, grandparents, and everyone else was. Cards do not separate, they distinguish citizens from descendants who have NOT been continuously affiliated with a sovereign nation. I can be an Italian descendant with the DNA to prove it, but not a citizen of Italy.

Buuuttt....even though I am not an affiliated Italian, I do love lasagna. Mmm I'm getting hungry!
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Old 09-06-2006, 04:56 PM   #100
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When rolls and enrollment started back inthe 1800's it was for the Fed gov't to identify and keep up with indians...
some of the early cherokee rolls - before baker - where actually testified to by tribal members as to who was and who wasn't indian

we had two men testify on paper that they personally knew the person applying for enrollment and had to state how many years and if someone could not make it in person to enroll, then usually community/neighbors would tell the enrolling officer about the person and or their family to make sure they were listed.

this means if your ancestors lived away from the main body of the tribe and did not associate/ participate or go to councils or meetings or gatherings.... then they ended up most times being forgotten and left to the side, and no one in later years could tell or vouch for that family or their descendents....

for most of us it is a log/roll in which we can go back and look at who had kids by who, who someones parents were we're talking about rolls to 1848 and earlier, and it brings our history and family connections alive

Now to the Catawba's yes they intermarried with surrounding tribes and whitemen, they were known to move about, some moved to Colorado but are still Catawba, their roots go back to SC - Rock Hill whether in OK, Co or where else they ended up making their living they are still Catawba their language is Siouan based, there are some that speak a bit of their language but I believe one of the last fluent and full blood died around the 70's I believe he was a Harris...
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