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Old 04-01-2011, 10:45 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by GoggenGH View Post
I'm SORRY for you, but you seem to be putting yourself in "jail"!
By being accountable for my own actions and safety whilst demanding that others -- as rational, seemingly intelligent and full-grown adults -- do same?

Oh, yeah, there's much to be sorry for, there. NOT

In terms of stats, in order to placate Rosebud apologists, you had to go all the way to France? I applaud effort but, when you find something that is in any way meaningful or applicable, I recommend posting THAT.

But, if you must beg the question, "She did not knew here husband well enough to protect herself???"

You catch on fast.
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Old 08-02-2011, 06:24 PM   #82
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I think attitudes can be changed on both sides. That both men and women can do better when it comes to rape prevention.

women probably could learn to think more defensively.
-to see the early signs of psychological abuse where a man will try to make you think you are trapped and helpless without him.
-to be aware of your surroundings at all time.
-to refuse and rebel against the custom that a woman must be nice and accommodating to all.
-to ignore the threat of being called a b* tch or c* nt or d* ke if you DARE stand up for yourself and defend your self.
-to learn to fight, kick, bite (ruthlessly) and run in case of an attack
-if you've been abused or assaulted as a child i realize this becomes doubly hard, due to the post traumatic stress. you have to be willing to develop your assertiveness, self- esteem and self- defense. Use any and all resources at your disposal. you are worth it.

i know this is hard, i know this goes against everything we've been taught or sold since before we were born.
And i know the justice system is useless. that restraining orders don't do a thing. the police can't prevent anything they can only stand around and clean up after the fact. I know the court system is stacked against you and it's unlikely you'll ever see proper justice. The sad fact is that only 2% of all accused rapist ever get convicted.
so if anything bad ever happens to you don't feel bad if you have to shoot the *ssh*le or cut his p*nis off.


and men need to learn think...period.
think about this.
rape is always the fault of the rapist. always.
there is absolutely nothing she can do or wear or say that MAKES a man rape. a man rapes when he chooses to rape.
There is absolutely nothing she does, wears or says deserves raping.
You are absolutely and completely responsible for your own actions.
and nothing that i said to women gets you off the hook or makes it OK in anyway shape or form.
And don't act all surprised if she shoots your or cuts your p*nis off.
you deserve it.

now hold on.... what if you are a man who has never committed a rape?
i bet you're getting all defensive now?
actually most men are not rapists.
experts estimate that only 4.5% of men have ever committed rape and that sound like a small percent until you figure 4.5% equals 600 million men. 600 million men in the USA who committed rape.... 600 million.
There are only 14.3 million people who are currently unemployed in this country. There are only 10 million single moms in the US. There are only 46,000 U.S. troops in Iraq.
600 million is a lot... and that's only this country.
so why would i give you the non-raping male a hard time?
simple. if you're not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.
if you have ever participated in the blame the victim game (she didn't do enough to stop it. what does she expect? she's just whore. etc. etc.) you're not helping
if you have ever condoned a rapists actions. ( boys will be boys. a man has needs etc, etc, ) you're not helping.
If you have ever condoned sexually aggressive behavior , you're not helping.
if you make or laugh at jokes about rape. you're an *sshole and you're not helping.
if you think because 98% of rape cases clear the rapist, the man must be innocent, and she MUST have made it all up. you're a fool.
if you have ever listened to another guy brag about raping women and never did anything about it. you're not helping.
if you have never taken the time to talk to other men and especially boys about honor and NOT crossing the line into rape and sexual assault, you are not helping.
and if you are not helping, you are part of the problem.

now if this still does not apply to you, you have my utmost respect.
but you also probably realize what a rare minority you are and that most other men do need to wake up and need to hear this.
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Old 08-02-2011, 06:30 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outershell
...experts estimate that only 4.5% of men have ever committed rape...
I get your point, but what's the percentage on it not being rape until the next day?

Call me cynical, but I'd like to know THAT number.
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Old 08-02-2011, 06:50 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
I get your point, but what's the percentage on it not being rape until the next day?

Call me cynical, but I'd like to know THAT number.

why do women delay in reporting a rape?
most likely its psychological: shock, trauma, shame, confusion.

a general distrust of the police may also be a part of it.
there have been reports of police making women take a breathalyzer test or blood test to see how much they had been drinking.
i can't really blame women for not trusting the justice system.... but do it anyway.

i should add to my list for women to call a crisis help line and report. but do it with the help of the crisis center.
National Sexual Assault Hotline at 1.800.656.HOPE.

if that doesn't work.
you can still go to plan B (shoot him or cut it off)
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Old 08-02-2011, 07:14 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outershell View Post
why do women delay in reporting a rape?
Because they were willing participants?

I am not being cross or argumentative, but there is a sizable portion (in my opinion) of that going on: just as how -- often -- permission to drive someone's car is retroactively rescinded if you wreck it...
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Old 08-02-2011, 09:38 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by outershell View Post

i should add to my list for women to call a crisis help line and report. but do it with the help of the crisis center.
National Sexual Assault Hotline at 1.800.656.HOPE.

if that doesn't work.
you can still go to plan B (shoot him or cut it off)
and stuff it down the gabage disposal. if none available, toss it to the dogs.
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Old 08-03-2011, 12:32 PM   #87
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This is just one of the reasons that I left the rez. I did not want my daughters to become a statistic, nor would I want my sons to think that it is ok to do this to women, drunk, high or sober.

Apachefire, i'd have to disagree with you though, it's too good for the dog, stuff it down his throat, make sure it's stuffed with a M80 of course.
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Old 08-03-2011, 02:28 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Because they were willing participants?

I am not being cross or argumentative, but there is a sizable portion (in my opinion) of that going on: just as how -- often -- permission to drive someone's car is retroactively rescinded if you wreck it...
Zeke. Women hesitate to report rape because of men like you. They know they will not be believed, which makes the whole assault worse. Your sympathy seems to be with the rapists.

For many years I worked as a counselor for rape victims and I listened to dozens of victims who refused to report the rape to police. Almost always, their reason was that they had a husband, boyfriend, father, or brother in their family who believes as you do: blame the victim.

Zeke: If you have a daughter, wife, mother--any woman at all who you love--I ask you to consider the effect you have in their lives.

Your own daughter would be unable to report a rape, because you would not believe her.
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Old 08-03-2011, 05:36 PM   #89
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Zeke. Women hesitate to report rape because of men like you.
NO.

Women hesitate to report rape because they are unwilling to analyze any responsibility THEY may have for its occurrence.

It's the same reason that a guy who gets his car stereo boosted after leaving his car unlocked, overnight, in the ghetto, after advertising that he had a nice stereo, isn't always interested in reporting the event. (And why, often, such isn't covered by insurance.)

Get this straight: if you ACT irresponsibly, you OWN a percentage of the consequences the next day. (Any woman whom I love would know this.)

Pigheaded grabbed the bull by the horns in leaving the reservation. Anyone who cries foul the next day because they're not 100% certain that things went the way they desired?

That's nobody's fault but theirs.

The red beads I've received -- with no name attached -- for pointing out how often that occurs stand as a visible example of the sort of "no responsibility" and "I'm a pure victim" status such folks would erroneously beg to maintain.

Someone that was accountable, as an adult, for their personal actions would leave a name (not an asterisk) and, probably, has less to fear about rape.

LAME.

If you never bear any responsibility, you can never be an adult.

Last edited by Zeke; 08-03-2011 at 06:00 PM..
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Old 08-03-2011, 08:09 PM   #90
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Zeke, if I ever give you red beads I will sign my name. But apparently somebody agrees with me that you deserve them.

The responsibility I own is to stand up to bullies like you who blame victims of brutal assault. By the way, what experience of yours made you an "expert" about rape? Have you ever listened to a rape victim's story first-hand? I'm not talking about television and movie portrayal.

Where did your opinion come from? Why would it be more valid than, say, any woman who posts here? Why would you know more about rape than I do?

My opinion about rape is drawn from years of helping rape victims struggle to heal. What experience do you have to be mouthing off here?
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Old 08-03-2011, 08:48 PM   #91
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Nobody deserves to be raped. Drunk, high or sober. But I can see Zeke's point about taking personal responsibility. If I was a woman I wouldn't go into a dive known to be frequented by, say, bikers, to get plastered in. Common sense would tell me : reputation of place + bikers + alcohol = trouble.

Having said that, a woman can take every precaution, be a non-drinker, and still get raped. In Muslim societies where alcohol consumption is illegal and women are generally covered from head to toe....women still get raped by men. (With the women usually being blamed).

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Old 08-03-2011, 08:52 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by storyteller View Post
zeke, if i ever give you red beads i will sign my name. But apparently somebody agrees with me that you deserve them.

The responsibility i own is to stand up to bullies like you who blame victims of brutal assault. By the way, what experience of yours made you an "expert" about rape? Have you ever listened to a rape victim's story first-hand? I'm not talking about television and movie portrayal.

Where did your opinion come from? Why would it be more valid than, say, any woman who posts here? Why would you know more about rape than i do?

My opinion about rape is drawn from years of helping rape victims struggle to heal. What experience do you have to be mouthing off here?
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Old 08-03-2011, 09:44 PM   #93
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I should point out that I am a living example of Zeke's strategy for women to be hyper-cautious 24/7 or else she deserves to be raped. I don't agree with it but I accept that guys like him are out there, as well as more rapists than most people want to believe.

For example, on my profile page here I've never disclosed any piece of personal information that would allow a creep to zero in on me. So I error on the side of caution, and I stay hidden from mostly good people in order to avoid the bad. In my mind, that is overly cautious.

Believe me, when I've met people on this site in real life I've been extremely cautious, but we've become friends. But to be less cautious, according to Zeke's opinion, means I'm risking rape.

I'm as cautious and responsible as they come, but I'm not immune.

I knew a 9-month-old boy with gonorrea in his throat. Did he deserve it?
I knew a 21-year-old woman whose uncle was drunk on Christmas Eve and raped her after dad passed out. She should have known better than to sleep in her own bed that night?


Anybody can be a victim of forcible rape is all I'm saying. And Zeke is denying it.

More importantly, what can be done by other women in the community to help each other be safe? Travelling in pairs, giving each other rides, safety checks, etc are some ideas. Sometimes sympathetic brothers and boyfriends provide protection.
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Old 08-03-2011, 09:53 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
NO.

The red beads I've received -- with no name attached -- for pointing out how often that occurs stand as a visible example of the sort of "no responsibility" and "I'm a pure victim" status such folks would erroneously beg to maintain.

Someone that was accountable, as an adult, for their personal actions would leave a name (not an asterisk) and, probably, has less to fear about rape.

LAME.

If you never bear any responsibility, you can never be an adult.
You're so full of it Z, I know you gave me red beads before and you never signed your name either. One of the mods told me so no denying it.
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Old 08-04-2011, 12:19 AM   #95
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In a perfect world there would be no rape. Any woman, dressed however she pleases, should be able to go into ANY bar (even the biker dive I mentioned above) without fear of rape.

But.....unfortunately, not everyone plays by the rules. There ARE predators out there.

"More importantly, what can be done by other women in the community to help each other be safe? Travelling in pairs, giving each other rides, safety checks, etc are some ideas. Sometimes sympathetic brothers and boyfriends provide protection."

That, and dealing with those convicted of rape in the harshest manner.

For the record, I think rape is a heinous crime. I have a wife, a daughter, a sister, a mother.
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Old 08-04-2011, 02:59 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by storyteller
Anybody can be a victim of forcible rape is all I'm saying.
And I am telling YOU that many of these "victims" need to look in a mirror (just like the vast majority of Natives who claim "victimhood") and accept some functional responsibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kakeeya
You're so full of it Z, I know you gave me red beads before and you never signed your name either. One of the mods told me so no denying it.
1. Nothing is impossible.
2. That seems HIGHLY unlikely.

Tell you what, why don't you just have your "mod" appear and report how, why, and for what reason they may have communicated to YOU information that is not readily available to the REST of the Board -- which seems exceedingly unprofessional or moderator like -- to confirm your assertion?

Until then, you're just making an unvalidated claim: much like those who report we aren't responsible for our own safety.

Quote:
Originally Posted by storyteller
Believe me, when I've met people on this site in real life I've been extremely cautious, but we've become friends. But to be less cautious, according to Zeke's opinion, means I'm risking rape.
I think that's pretty obvious, isn't it? Less caution typically indicates increased risk...

Quote:
Originally Posted by storyteller
I should point out that I am a living example of Zeke's strategy for women to be hyper-cautious 24/7 or else she deserves to be raped.
Ah, yes, the hyper-alarmist victim's red herring.

Nobody has said anything about deserve, merely that it is often retroactively claimed, emotionally invented post haste, or alleged as a passive aggressive weapon to assuage responsibility for personal actions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jack2011
a woman can take every precaution, be a non-drinker, and still get raped.
Sure. And what do you think those percentages are in comparison to individuals that take NO precautions, get smokin' hammered, have sex in every manner possible, then "decide" they were raped to avoid being internally responsible for their idiocy?

I'd bet a LOT LOWER.

At least that's what a degree in sociology (social behavior) with an advanced degree in public policy (managing social behavior), and WELL over a decade as victim's advocate (including rape), in law enforcement (rapists and victims), managing counselors (all facets), conducting public health research (major university), being a published academic author, and otherwise working with the functional aspects of the issue tell me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by storyteller
My opinion about rape is drawn from years of helping rape victims struggle to heal. What experience do you have to be mouthing off here?
Beyond the above and having some theories on how to not be a rape victim?

Quote:
Originally Posted by storyteller
what can be done by other women in the community to help each other be safe?
I'd start by only crying "rape" when/if it's an actual rape...

Quote:
Originally Posted by storyteller
Why would it be more valid than, say, any woman who posts here?
Well, if you're implying that you can only be an expert on rape if you have BEEN raped, then I am willing to hear your story... (sigh)

Quote:
Originally Posted by storyteller
The responsibility I own is to stand up to bullies like you who blame victims of brutal assault.
NO.

You "responsibility" should be to actually positively impact rape, not Susan Faludi style backlash femi-nazi those who evidence the lack of focus and accountability in your reasoning.

If you feel violated by that, I suggest you try more effectively defining what a "bully" is, as someone asking you to be responsible for yourself is both far from accurate and prima facie evidence of why you embrace victimhood.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jack2011
I think rape is a heinous crime.
Absolutely.

Which is why it demands more scrutiny than a knee jerk post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Last edited by Zeke; 08-04-2011 at 04:36 AM..
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Old 08-04-2011, 10:58 AM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
And I am telling YOU that many of these "victims" need to look in a mirror (just like the vast majority of Natives who claim "victimhood") and accept some functional responsibility.

functional responsibility for rape? that would be the guy, right?


Zeke says:
Ah, yes, the hyper-alarmist victim's red herring.

Nope, I've never claimed to be a victim.

Zeke says:
Sure. And what do you think those percentages are in comparison to individuals that take NO precautions, get smokin' hammered, have sex in every manner possible, then "decide" they were raped to avoid being internally responsible for their idiocy?

I'd bet a LOT LOWER.

At least that's what a degree in sociology (social behavior) with an advanced degree in public policy (managing social behavior), and WELL over a decade as victim's advocate (including rape), in law enforcement (rapists and victims), managing counselors (all facets), conducting public health research (major university), being a published academic author, and otherwise working with the functional aspects of the issue tell me.
Story says:
Are we supposed to be impressed? If you are telling the truth and you were a victim's advocate talking to rape victim's in a law-enforcement capacity, then you've proven my point. Why would a woman go to police after rape if you were there to talk to her? No point.

And there you go working with the "functional" aspects" of the issue. What you been doing?

Zeke says:
Beyond the above and having some theories on how to not be a rape victim?


I'd start by only crying "rape" when/if it's an actual rape...



Well, if you're implying that you can only be an expert on rape if you have BEEN raped, then I am willing to hear your story... (sigh)
Story says:
Nope--I've got no rape story to make me an expert . . . (sigh)


NO.

You "responsibility" should be to actually positively impact rape, not Susan Faludi style backlash femi-nazi those who evidence the lack of focus and accountability in your reasoning.

If you feel violated by that, I suggest you try more effectively defining what a "bully" is, as someone asking you to be responsible for yourself is both far from accurate and prima facie evidence of why you embrace victimhood.

OMG did you call me a femi-nazi with lack of focus and accountability in reasoning?
If you really REALLY want to debate this topic seriously, please do start listening to women. We don't need you pontificating about being careful in the world. We won't remind you to put handcuff on your prisoners when you transport them.

Zeke:
Which is why it demands more scrutiny than a knee jerk post hoc ergo propter hoc.
There you go with fancy words again! I have no idea what they mean. But they suggest to me a lack of focus and accountability in reasoning
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Last edited by storyteller; 08-04-2011 at 11:09 AM..
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Old 08-04-2011, 11:11 AM   #98
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Actually, I just perceive your inability to figure out how to quote on a message board, weakness in correctly assessing personal responsibility, lack of reading comprehension, and -- OMG, hilarious -- presumptive sexism.

Seriously, that's intellectually inept and wafts of a lame attempt at invoking relativisim because, independently, your point fails. (Actually, I think YOU should attempt to truly listen to women as you're OBVIOUSLY buying the superficial.)

"Fancy words?"

That's just trying to be dismissive due to a lack of comprehension.

Do you know what that's called?

NOT THINKING.

You don't want to, because it would threaten your (and others) emotionally deviod of logic theories on the topic.

Obviously, that's part of the problem in creating a solution.
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Old 08-04-2011, 11:22 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyo_rose View Post
I think this should be required viewing for every teenage girl on the rez.

Two days after posting this, a friend of mine had to go find his little sister at a house party. She was out of it and had just been sexually assaulted. I've heard more horror stories after discussing this with people around here, and I hope to hell its mostly rumor.

On the flip side, you have people being falsely accused. I can think of 4 right now off the top of my head. If only half are really truly falsely accused, then that is still too many.
It seems wyo-rose made Zeke's point more than a year ago on the first page of this thread. She started this thread to discuss violence against women. She made many good points, and I thank her for starting the thread and speaking up about a subject we are taught to NOT talk about.

Many women posted here, and it seems to me that Zeke argued them all away. Not through better reasoning or kinder heart, but just plain old bullying.

So a discussion about rape continues to by changed (by Zeke) into a discussion of women being liars. After a year of it, I'm just tired of it.

The documentary that wyo-rose mentioned is excellent. I hope everybody gets to see it, and as wyo-rose suggests, show it to your daughters.
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Old 08-04-2011, 11:25 AM   #100
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Zeke, I'm not interested in teaching pigs to sing.
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