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Old 01-05-2008, 02:47 PM   #1
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DNA Tests & Blood Types

Hi Everyone, you all may have discussed these topics before but since I'm new to the site, I've missed the discussions. As you get to know me, you'll realize that I ask questions because I seriously want to know the answer or your opinions. I don't ask questions to be sarcastic or silly. Here goes:

1. What exactly is the purpose for the DNA test? My friend in Georgia took one and it came back to tell her what she already knew. The test confirmed her North American Indian, Northern Africa, and European blood. The test could not tell her the name of the Indian Tribe, African Tribe, or European tribe.

2. What exactly is a "full blood" Indian according to scientific blood type? I know what being a "full blood" Indian by nature means.

3. What I mean by scientific blood type for example is O+, A, B, O- etc. My blood type is O+ and when I was a child, I had chickenpox that almost killed me, even though I had recieved the vaccine. The doctor told my mom that it was due to my O+ blood type because I don't have those extra antibotics or either antigens in my blood to help fight off disease. I forget which one that O+ blood is missing. The doctor also told my mom that O blood types are commom among First Nation People and that is the reason that the European diseases almost wiped them out. First Nation People didn't have that extra thing in their blood needed to fight off European disease and still don't have it but they can fight the disease due to vaccines. Sometimes the vaccine don't even help.

4. And, I still have pox marks on my face from those chicken pox that I had almost 40 years ago. Will they ever disappear?
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Old 01-05-2008, 09:47 PM   #2
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We did have a discussion in a couple of forums on this. It would be too much for me to re-post right now. But do a search and look up "Mowa Choctaw" thread and "Fake Tribes vs. We are too Real" page 4 is where it started and the "Mowa Choctaw" is where it ended.

And I'm sorry and I don't mean to be offensive, but your doctor was a DING BAT. I really have never found anything stating that a BLOOD type has to do with that. My son's father is Full Blood German and he has O+ blood and so did his dad and many of his brother's. My sister also has O+ blood and had the chicken pox when we were kids (we both had them at the same time) and she didn't almost die. Actually, O+ and O- are universal blood donor's and they match to almost every blood type when talking about blood transfussions.
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Old 01-05-2008, 09:51 PM   #3
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Are you sure it was chicken pox you almost died from? I heard that encephalitis or cellulitis can develop after a bout with chicken pox, but haven't ever heard of anyone dying from it unless they already had a depressed immune system.

And the chicken pox vaccine has only been available since 1995 I think. My daughter got cellulitis from 2 chicken pox on her face and she still has a little scar from one. If you scars haven't gone away by now, don't count on it.

As far as DNA comparisons, I was very disappointed that only 200 some samples have been taken around the world to compare these tests to. There are so many dissimilar Indian peoples in this Hemisphere that I think they need 200 samples from North America alone.

Plus most tests can only get your matrilineal DNA. Waste of money!
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Old 01-05-2008, 10:04 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by wyo_rose View Post
Are you sure it was chicken pox you almost died from? I heard that encephalitis or cellulitis can develop after a bout with chicken pox, but haven't ever heard of anyone dying from it unless they already had a depressed immune system.

And the chicken pox vaccine has only been available since 1995 I think. My daughter got cellulitis from 2 chicken pox on her face and she still has a little scar from one. If you scars haven't gone away by now, don't count on it.

As far as DNA comparisons, I was very disappointed that only 200 some samples have been taken around the world to compare these tests to. There are so many dissimilar Indian peoples in this Hemisphere that I think they need 200 samples from North America alone.

Plus most tests can only get your matrilineal DNA. Waste of money!
Yep, it was chicken pox and I had the vaccine in the 1960s. I lived in Bronx, New York at the time. I'm glad you and your sister didn't almost die like I almost died.
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Old 01-05-2008, 10:07 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by timmy tiger View Post
We did have a discussion in a couple of forums on this. It would be too much for me to re-post right now. But do a search and look up "Mowa Choctaw" thread and "Fake Tribes vs. We are too Real" page 4 is where it started and the "Mowa Choctaw" is where it ended.

And I'm sorry and I don't mean to be offensive, but your doctor was a DING BAT. I really have never found anything stating that a BLOOD type has to do with that. My son's father is Full Blood German and he has O+ blood and so did his dad and many of his brother's. My sister also has O+ blood and had the chicken pox when we were kids (we both had them at the same time) and she didn't almost die. Actually, O+ and O- are universal blood donor's and they match to almost every blood type when talking about blood transfussions.
Appreciate your reply. No offense taken. However, that doctor is not the first "ding bat" that I've heard make that statement.
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Old 01-05-2008, 10:31 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by RainbowSpiriDancer View Post
1. What exactly is the purpose for the DNA test? My friend in Georgia took one and it came back to tell her what she already knew.... The test could not tell her the name of the Indian Tribe, African Tribe, or European tribe.
I have two responses to this question, one cynical one scientific.

Cynical answer: This is a test some people take to "prove" they have "Indian" genes, because they can't prove it any other way.

Scientific answer: This is a test that replicates the testee's DNA and uses enzyemes and various seperation techniques to isolate particular sets of alleles linked to certian loci on a gene. Alleles are sequences of bases (bases are the molecular structures on DNA that code information) located at particular sites on certain genes. These sequences linked at two or more loci are called halotypes. Halotypes vary from individual to individual.

Some halotypes are very slow to mutate and are passed on unchanged from generation to generation. Through huge sampling and statistical anaylsis efforts the frequencies of certain halotypes and the range of halotype variations have been traced for various geographical populations. By looking at several halotypes on an individual's DNA and preforming a series of correlation calculations a set descent probablities can be determined

Genealogical DNA test - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
DNA Testing: An Introduction for Non-Scientists

Quote:
Originally Posted by RainbowSpiriDancer View Post
The test could not tell her the name of the Indian Tribe, African Tribe, or European tribe.
These tests are highly controversial. There are questions about sample size and various other scientific issues. Further, the more reliable testing methods (Y-DNA and mtDNA) are sex linked. For example if an individual is female and her native ancestor is male, she will not have mtDNA from the Native side of the family.

There is simply not enough information compiled to trace profiles to specific Nations. Nor is there ever likely to be. Native North American populations were always involved in wide ranging trade networks exchanging goods and genes over the entire continent. Further, we suffered massive depopulation. How many genes disappeared when 75-90% of our population died in virgin field epidemics?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RainbowSpiriDancer View Post
2. What exactly is a "full blood" Indian according to scientific blood type?
Not much. There is a higher rate of O blood types among some Native populations.

Again, there is no scientific basis for race. There is no gene for Indian or Black or Asian or White or whatever. There are frequencies of characteristics related to georaphic and social barriers to intermarriage and environmental effects that make certain traits more favorable to long term survial.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RainbowSpiriDancer View Post
3. ...I had chickenpox that almost killed me, even though I had recieved the vaccine. The doctor told my mom that it was due to my O+ blood type because I don't have those extra antibotics or either antigens in my blood to help fight off disease. I forget which one that O+ blood is missing. The doctor also told my mom that O blood types are commom among First Nation People and that is the reason that the European diseases almost wiped them out. First Nation People didn't have that extra thing in their blood needed to fight off European disease and still don't have it but they can fight the disease due to vaccines. Sometimes the vaccine don't even help.
Certain gene sequences are favorable to blocking disease causing organsims. Populations struck repeatedly by a disease will eventually have mostly individuals with the favorable sequences.

Further, many of the imported European plagues were zoonosises (animal diseases) of domestic animals. We didn't have those animals and didn't live check to jowl in the filth of our farm animals, therefore we had no pressure to keep these sequences. Some of these disease fighting sequences have other effects on the organism. However, certain mild genetics problems are less lethal than say the Black Death. Therefore, those individuals live long enough to breed.

Antiboitics are chemical compounds, for outside the human body, that poison bacteria faster than they poison the person. They do nothing against viruses. Antigens are protiens or polysaccarides that attach to a disease causing agent and let the immune system know they need to destroy it. The body can be trained to produce them by a vaccine, which consists of dead or weakened disease organisms or proteins from those organsims.

There are certain theories that hold some biogeographic groups are less able to form certain antigens. The theory also holds that the disease organsim adapts to the host and if the next host is genetically closer, the disease will be able to do more damage. However, before blaming your Native heritage for your unusally bad case of the chicken pox, it is just as like that a secondary infection or other conditions was to at fault.

BTW, blood types are determined by the presence or absence of certain antigen groups. These don't have a huge correlation to disease suspectiblity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RainbowSpiriDancer View Post
4. And, I still have pox marks on my face from those chicken pox that I had almost 40 years ago. Will they ever disappear?
They are scars. Scars are permanent. Certain skin types are also prone to more keloid formation, which makes scars worse. Age and certain treatments can improve their appearence. But, you're stuck with them.

Last edited by OLChemist; 01-05-2008 at 10:38 PM.. Reason: Spelling. I.E. I can't....
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Old 01-05-2008, 10:42 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
I have two responses to this question, one cynical one scientific.

Cynical answer: This is a test some people take to "prove" they have "Indian" genes, because they can't prove it any other way.

Scientific answer: This is a test that replicates the testee's DNA and uses enzyemes and various seperation techniques to isolate particular sets of alleles linked to certian loci on a gene. Alleles are sequences of bases (bases are the molecular structures on DNA that code information) located at particular sites on certain genes. These sequences linked at two or more loci are called halotypes. Halotypes vary from individual to individual.

Some halotypes are very slow to mutate and are passed on unchanged from generation to generation. Through huge sampling and statistical anaylsis efforts the frequencies of certain halotypes and the range of halotype variations have been traced for various geographical populations. By looking at several halotypes on an individual's DNA and preforming a series of correlation calculations a set descent probablities can be determined

Genealogical DNA test - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
DNA Testing: An Introduction for Non-Scientists



These tests are highly controversial. There are questions about sample size and various other scientific issues. Further, the more reliable testing methods (Y-DNA and mtDNA) are sex linked. For example if an individual is female and her native ancestor is male, she will not have mtDNA from the Native side of the family.

There is simply not enough information compiled to trace profiles to specific Nations. Nor is there ever likely to be. Native North American populations were always involved in wide ranging trade networks exchanging goods and genes over the entire continent. Further, we suffered massive depopulation. How many genes disappeared when 75-90% of our population died in virgin field epidemics?



Not much. There is a higher rate of O blood types among some Native populations.

Again, there is no scientific basis for race. There is no gene for Indian or Black or Asian or White or whatever. There are frequencies of characteristics related to georaphic and social barriers to intermarriage and environmental effects that make certain traits more favorable to long term survial.



Certain gene sequences are favorable to blocking disease causing organsims. Populations struck repeatedly by a disease will eventually have mostly individuals with the favorable sequences.

Further, many of the imported European plagues were zoonosises (animal diseases) of domestic animals. We didn't have those animals and didn't live check to jowl in the filth of our farm animals, therefore we had no pressure to keep these sequences. Some of these disease fighting sequences have other effects on the organism. However, certain mild genetics problems are less lethal than say the Black Death. Therefore, those individuals live long enough to breed.

Antiboitics are chemical compounds, for outside the human body, that poison bacteria faster than they poison the person. They do nothing against viruses. Antigens are protiens or polysaccarides that attach to a disease causing agent and let the immune system know they need to destroy it. The body can be trained to produce them by a vaccine, which consists of dead or weakened disease organisms or proteins from those organsims.

There are certain theories that hold some biogeographic groups are less able to form certain antigens. The theory also holds that the disease organsim adapts to the host and if the next host is genetically closer, the disease will be able to do more damage. However, before blaming your Native heritage for your unusally bad case of the chicken pox, it is just as like that a secondary infection or other conditions was to at fault.

BTW, blood types are determined by the presence or absence of certain antigen groups. These don't have a huge correlation to disease suspectiblity.



They are scars. Scars are permanent. Certain skin types are also prone to more keloid formation, which makes scars worse. Age and certain treatments can improve their appearence. But, you're stuck with them.
Wow! Thanks OLChemist! Great post. Great information. I didn't mean to imply that I am blaming my Native heritage, for almost dying from the chickenpox, however. If I may ask. How old are you?
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Old 01-05-2008, 10:54 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by wyo_rose View Post
As far as DNA comparisons, I was very disappointed that only 200 some samples have been taken around the world to compare these tests to. There are so many dissimilar Indian peoples in this Hemisphere that I think they need 200 samples from North America alone.
Not to be argumentive, but the sample size has been larger than that. The Human Genome Project has sampled a huge number of individuals. It is the commerical databases used by the different companies that are much more limited. Also different research groups looked at different halotypes. So there are some tests that have better samples for some parts of the planet.

Remember, the Human Geonome Project permitted the patenting of gene sequences. So this has limited the diffusion of information and caused some groups -- most notably some tribes -- to decline to participate. Not to mentions the hairy ethical issues associated with having human genetic material patented.

However, I completely agree with your skepticism about the validity of these tests. As a scientist -- although not a biologist/biochemist -- I have deep reservations. Human mating and migration have not been the most -- uh -- orderly things.

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Plus most tests can only get your matrilineal DNA. Waste of money!
Amen!

Our cultures are not sequences of bases in a gel in a lab somewhere. They are in our families, languages, arts, manners, and religions.

If you need a test to find yourself, you need to spend more time with your family.
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Old 01-05-2008, 10:59 PM   #9
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If I may ask. How old are you?
LOL, the "OL" is not short for Old. I am middle aged. How's that for a dodge?
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Old 01-05-2008, 11:09 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
Not to be argumentive, but the sample size has been larger than that. The Human Genome Project has sampled a huge number of individuals. It is the commerical databases used by the different companies that are much more limited. Also different research groups looked at different halotypes. So there are some tests that have better samples for some parts of the planet.

Remember, the Human Geonome Project permitted the patenting of gene sequences. So this has limited the diffusion of information and caused some groups -- most notably some tribes -- to decline to participate. Not to mentions the hairy ethical issues associated with having human genetic material patented.

However, I completely agree with your skepticism about the validity of these tests. As a scientist -- although not a biologist/biochemist -- I have deep reservations. Human mating and migration have not been the most -- uh -- orderly things.



Amen!

Our cultures are not sequences of bases in a gel in a lab somewhere. They are in our families, languages, arts, manners, and religions.

If you need a test to find yourself, you need to spend more time with your family.
OLChemist, again, I say great post!

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Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
Our cultures are not sequences of bases in a gel in a lab somewhere. They are in our families, languages, arts, manners, and religions.
Why are so many people taking the DNA plunge to see if they're Indian? Just curious.

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Old 01-05-2008, 11:27 PM   #11
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Oh! Guess I stuck my foot in my mouth again! I asked your age because you're so smart, full of wisdom, and your answer was complete and not sarcastic. You just told it like it is without attitude! My cousin lives in Rapid City, she and her husband both are Oglala Lakota, she is originally from Wounded Knee. I talk with her often over the phone about some of the nasty attitudes that Indian people have with people that they feel are not their equal because we didn't grow up on the reservation. And my cousin said that intelligent Indian people don't show bad attitude or look down their noses at others. My cousin said that intelligent Indian people are happy when other people with an Indian heritage try to learn and ask questions. My cousin said that they feel honored that we care enough to ask questions and learn. It appears that she is 100% correct.
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Old 01-06-2008, 06:29 AM   #12
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Well after someone I know to be 1/4 indian tested only 4% on a DNA test as native american.. I no longer believe any of the results of these tests. I think many of them are being made up as they go by some of the companies.
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Old 01-06-2008, 06:35 AM   #13
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BB-I can totally understand that one. As I said in another post, I had a friend who was tested and I know that he's "Full Blood" and it came back with all this other stuff on it. But, also, these are based by what they call AIM's (Ancestry Identification Marker's) and we all get one of these from each of our parents who get one of each from each of their parents. So we are only getting 25% from each of our parent's which is only 50% right off the bat as to our total, but if you take that further back the % is so much smaller. Also, the labs will tell you that two siblings can show totally different results based on the gene's that each one receive at conception. So it's not accurate by any means.
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Old 01-06-2008, 09:37 AM   #14
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Quote:
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Why are so many people taking the DNA plunge to see if they're Indian? Just curious.
In my opinion, I think it is a result of the dislocation that people in the dominant culture feel. Over the years I've know a number of non-Indian people who were in esence a drift. Broken families and mobile nature of American society left them cut off.

They had no ties to where they lived, no family, and no sesne of their own culture and history. All they had was what they could watch on TV and buy in the store. Further most of them viewed culture as something made you different from the group rather than part of the group. Finding a gene marker made them fell both special and seperate from the dominant culture, and part of something larger.

I've known a woman so desperate to be Indian because "we had culture and are cool" that took a test. I wondered what the paper was going to do. Was she going to decorate X% of her home in bad paintings of wolves and Native tourist kitsch? Was she going learn X% of a Native language? Acknowledge X% of her family?

The African-Americans I've talked to about the test had different motivations. They pointed to a break in their families. Most wanted to know their family history past the middle passage.
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Old 01-07-2008, 05:43 AM   #15
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Well we (friends and myself) kinda figured out what they do sometimes is they tell people they are like 17% indian because they have these markers that they have not identified or are mutated.. so they are basically thrown in a pot and then called native american because they have the least information on us, but would rather not call it unknown.

I was curious what mine would say once since one side of my family is white all the way back and mom's side is indian all the way back. No mixing till my mom and dad met and made me :):
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Old 01-07-2008, 02:08 PM   #16
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Yep, it was chicken pox and I had the vaccine in the 1960s. I lived in Bronx, New York at the time. I'm glad you and your sister didn't almost die like I almost died.
Nope. Look it up. Chicken pox vaccine has only been available since 1995. Your doc was a quack.
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Old 01-07-2008, 06:21 PM   #17
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Nope. Look it up. Chicken pox vaccine has only been available since 1995. Your doc was a quack.
Ok. Thanks for the info.
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Old 01-08-2008, 06:07 AM   #18
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Nope. Look it up. Chicken pox vaccine has only been available since 1995. Your doc was a quack.
You sure it was'nt possibly smallpox? They had the vaccination for that back then and it would leave scars as well.

Quoted from Wikipedia on Smallpox:There are two clinical forms of smallpox. Variola major is the severe and most common form of smallpox, with a more extensive rash and higher fever. There are four types of variola major smallpox based on the Rao classification[16]: ordinary, modified, flat, and hemorrhagic. Historically, variola major has an overall fatality rate of about 30%; however, flat and hemorrhagic smallpox are usually fatal.[17] In addition, a form called variola sine eruptione (smallpox without rash) is seen generally in vaccinated persons. It is a febrile illness occurring after the usual incubation period and can be confirmed only by antibody studies or, rarely, by virus isolation. Subclinical (asymptomatic) infections with variola virus have also been noted, but are not believed to be common.[13]

Variola minor is a less common presentation of smallpox, and a much less severe disease, with historical death rates of 1% or less.[14]
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Old 01-08-2008, 05:12 PM   #19
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You sure it was'nt possibly smallpox? They had the vaccination for that back then and it would leave scars as well.

Quoted from Wikipedia on Smallpox:There are two clinical forms of smallpox. Variola major is the severe and most common form of smallpox, with a more extensive rash and higher fever. There are four types of variola major smallpox based on the Rao classification[16]: ordinary, modified, flat, and hemorrhagic. Historically, variola major has an overall fatality rate of about 30%; however, flat and hemorrhagic smallpox are usually fatal.[17] In addition, a form called variola sine eruptione (smallpox without rash) is seen generally in vaccinated persons. It is a febrile illness occurring after the usual incubation period and can be confirmed only by antibody studies or, rarely, by virus isolation. Subclinical (asymptomatic) infections with variola virus have also been noted, but are not believed to be common.[13]

Variola minor is a less common presentation of smallpox, and a much less severe disease, with historical death rates of 1% or less.[14]
Could have been but I do remember the doctor and my mom talking about my O+ blood and that's why knowing my blood type has stayed with me. I do remember my mom saying that I had already had the vaccine. I also remember the doctor telling my mom that O+ blood is common in American Indian People. I remember the doctor explaining to my mom that my O+ blood is missing that extra thing that helps to fight off disease. I also remember my mom and my aunt talking about the incident after I got well. I was covered from head to toe. I had them inside my mouth, eyes, hair, and between my fingers and toes and I had a very high fever. I remember my mom telling me that they thought a couple of times they would lose me. I remember my mom telling me that my fever was so high until I was talking about seeing little animals dancing in the middle of the floor. I was sick for quite sometime. I can remember missing about a month and a half of school. All I can say is that I'll never forget it and I still have scars. However, I'm not blaming my American Indian blood or heritage for me getting sick. And if I came across that way, I didn't mean to. I was only wondering if the same thing had happened to anyone else on this site.
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Old 01-08-2008, 05:46 PM   #20
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Good detective work, BB. Probably was smallpox.

Well, O+ is the most common type in America, most common type in African Americans, most common type in Native Americans in general. (Googled it)

Here's a link to show some groups: Racial and Ethnic Distribution of ABO Blood Types - BloodBook.com, Blood Information for Life Interesting about the Blackfoot group and Eskimos. I'm still wondering how I got my B+....must be the attitude...
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