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Forum Home - Go Back > General > Native Life > Native Issues Exposing The Fake Medicine Men And  Women Exposing The Fake Medicine Men And Women

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Old 02-27-2009, 08:16 PM   #221
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Would you believe I just saw a pop-up ad here for regalia for sale?
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Old 03-02-2009, 10:10 AM   #222
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and it continues...

but again, the truth is simple.... what one person believes is "sacred" is just business to the guy standing next to him...

regalia CAN be sacred ... or it CAN be business..

regalia has NO INTRINSIC nature... it is free of such conceptual and emotional garabage...

But, we all just can't help ourselves can we... we simply MUST add tons of mental and emotional weight to everything we call our "own".... don't we ?

The whole system is screwed. ............. but, it keeps on somehow..
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Old 03-02-2009, 11:15 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by IlnuSoldier View Post
and it continues...

but again, the truth is simple.... what one person believes is "sacred" is just business to the guy standing next to him...

regalia CAN be sacred ... or it CAN be business..

regalia has NO INTRINSIC nature... it is free of such conceptual and emotional garabage...

But, we all just can't help ourselves can we... we simply MUST add tons of mental and emotional weight to everything we call our "own".... don't we ?

The whole system is screwed. ............. but, it keeps on somehow..
Maybe this is why you miss the mark. For some of us our regalia is full of what you call "emotional garbage". I put my heart into regalia. If one of my kids has me really annoyed with them, a good smudge and making stuff for their regalia reminds me of all the things I love about them. Then I can't wait ti hug them and talk with them. Sure it's business to the guy next to us, that doesn't mean we should shrug and walk away with our tails between our legs.
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Old 03-02-2009, 11:46 AM   #224
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Maybe this is why you miss the mark.
Are you kidding? He's dead on.

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Originally Posted by SuzzeQ4 View Post
For some of us our regalia is full of what you call "emotional garbage". I put my heart into regalia.
Sure. But that's a function of you, not the clothes.

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Originally Posted by SuzzeQ4 View Post
If one of my kids has me really annoyed with them, a good smudge and making stuff for their regalia reminds me of all the things I love about them. Then I can't wait ti hug them and talk with them.
Again, that's a function of you.

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Sure it's business to the guy next to us, that doesn't mean we should shrug and walk away with our tails between our legs.
Unless you're glorifying an inanimate object, which many Natives do, for no good reason, other then assigning intrinsic value that is NOT found within the item by mere virtue of its existence.

This process is sickening, actually. It makes me desire to scream at said Natives to GET A GRIP. But, it's their choice to assign "medicine" to something -- giving it power -- when reality is that things are imbued from another source: not from the object/regalia/tools.

Perhaps that is why some Natives are directly threatened by "Fake Medicine Men and Women?" Because they're using our things/trappings and many have, falsely, assigned power/influence such?

Rhetorical query...
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Old 03-02-2009, 12:01 PM   #225
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Are you kidding? He's dead on.



Sure. But that's a function of you, not the clothes.



Again, that's a function of you.



Unless you're glorifying an inanimate object, which many Natives do, for no good reason, other then assigning intrinsic value that is NOT found within the item by mere virtue of its existence.

This process is sickening, actually. It makes me desire to scream at said Natives to GET A GRIP. But, it's their choice to assign "medicine" to something -- giving it power -- when reality is that things are imbued from another source: not from the object/regalia/tools.

Perhaps that is why some Natives are directly threatened by "Fake Medicine Men and Women?" Because they're using our things/trappings and many have, falsely, assigned power/influence such?

Rhetorical query...
It's the nature of spiritualism Zeke...all around the world...you either get it or you don't.
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Old 03-02-2009, 12:06 PM   #226
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It's the nature of spiritualism Zeke...all around the world...you either get it or you don't.
Spiritualism is either real or it is not.

Manufacturing something, then assigning spirituality to it, is constructed and false.

Not much to get, it seems openly obvious.
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Old 03-02-2009, 12:13 PM   #227
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Spiritualism is either real or it is not.

Manufacturing something, then assigning spirituality to it, is constructed and false.

Not much to get, it seems openly obvious.
If you believe it it is not fake, that's the way it works. To me an item is sacred, to you it is an item...that does not make it less real for me or any more then my belief makes the same item sacred to you. But if you consider how many of us feel, then maybe you can understand why we get annoyed, even if you think it is silly.
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Old 03-02-2009, 12:49 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by SuzzeQ4 View Post
If you believe it it is not fake, that's the way it works. To me an item is sacred, to you it is an item...that does not make it less real for me or any more then my belief makes the same item sacred to you. But if you consider how many of us feel, then maybe you can understand why we get annoyed, even if you think it is silly.
But YOU made the item!

So where is the medicine, really?

Hint: it's in YOU. Or, at least, channeled through you. Either way, it's you, not the item.

Which is -- again -- why "Fake" Medicine Men are, so, NOT an issue. If they don't have medicine, who cares? And, if they do, it's out of our hands.
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Old 03-02-2009, 03:48 PM   #229
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Actually...it is called "animism"... meaning that you believe the world around you is animate...

Which, like Zeke is saying, I am NOT saying that things cannot be temporarily "blessed" ...but that POWER comes from a SENTIENT mind projecting this ONTO the INANIMATE matter...

the matter itself is without an intrinsic quality other than the basic qualities it posses while it is temporarily appearing..

for example.. wood can burn... a wooden statue of a god does not intrinsically possess any value other than it can be burned...

..however, the faith and focus of a follower of said god might be able to PROJECT value (and thus, project a use for the statue) onto the statue...

but this value is not intrinsically present.


This clear distinction between a lack of intrinsic value and projected value is not just a "modern idea"...
... it is part of the manitushiun teachings which go back to the ice age.

... so, at least in my part of the world... we don't worship inanimate matter....

This principle extends to all things... NOTHING HAS INTRINSIC VALUE...

everything you "know" and "believe" about the world is a mental fabrication... laced with emotional poisoning and impulse control issues....

... the universe JUST simply appears...without an origin and without a destination...

All value and all experience within the universe comes about solely due to our mental constructs and projections within the universe.

It is as if there is giant montage of colors and sounds... and we pick and choose various pieces of sound and color and shape... and then condense and twist them into a reality we can accept and live in..

Then we begin assigning names, functions, values, etc.etc..
all of this is our own mental wanderings...
The world you know is the world inside your thoughts...
The real world has no such limitations.
Alright..I'm getting off topic..

The point is still the same : Regalia has no intrinsic quality or value. All value is projected value.

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Old 03-02-2009, 03:49 PM   #230
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But YOU made the item!

So where is the medicine, really?

Hint: it's in YOU. Or, at least, channeled through you. Either way, it's you, not the item.

Which is -- again -- why "Fake" Medicine Men are, so, NOT an issue. If they don't have medicine, who cares? And, if they do, it's out of our hands.
I agree it came from me through love and belief but I happen to think it goes into the object. So why worry about the fakes? Well I think everyone has power within them, if it's misused, misunderstood, used negatively or in any kind of bad way then people can get hurt. consequently I am very selective about who I turn to
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Old 03-02-2009, 07:32 PM   #231
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I don't know that my regalia is sacred, but it is special to me. I have put many hours in assembling and caring for my regalia. I don't think that it has "medicine". I do think that it's something that I cherish and has great intrinsic(sp??) value to me.....

I do have things that are sacred to me and that I feel have medicine. These things may not have medicine for someone else or they may just be a rock or a feather or a shell to someone else. But the are very important to me.

One man's medicine could be looked at as another's junk....
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Old 03-03-2009, 12:04 PM   #232
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One man's medicine could be looked at as another's junk....
I can agree with that. Of course, that means we're becoming relativistic about what medicine is, internalizing it...

I have no issues with that, either, but it means we really shouldn't worry about exposing "Fake Medicine Men and Women," because they don't actually impact us unless it is about the KiowaKat Principle ($$$).

If that's the case, the capitalistically threatened among us should just say this is about Protectionism, as opposed to whining incessantly, pretending it is all about the consumer, and/or acting as if acknowledging supposed "fakes" isn't the greater hassle.
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Old 03-03-2009, 01:21 PM   #233
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I just read the original article on page one. I think the cultural issues are secondary to what I see as a potential danger to the lives of our fellow human beings.

If these people are claiming to be "healers", are they offering alternatives to medical treatment to people who should be seeking treatment from a licensed MD, thus, possibly, condemning them to an unnecessarily early death?

What of the person with a terminal illness or condition? Are they giving him/her false hope? Are they pretending to cure the incurable?

If so, then I say expose them, and quickly.
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Old 03-03-2009, 01:27 PM   #234
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I just read the original article on page one. I think the cultural issues are secondary to what I see as a potential danger to the lives of our fellow human beings.

If these people are claiming to be "healers", are they offering alternatives to medical treatment to people who should be seeking treatment from a licensed MD, thus, possibly, condemning them to an unnecessarily early death?

What of the person with a terminal illness or condition? Are they giving him/her false hope? Are they pretending to cure the incurable?

If so, then I say expose them, and quickly.
So, if the Medicine Man is "real" to you, do you still care?

What's to expose, if it's not about $$$?
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Old 03-03-2009, 01:28 PM   #235
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Nel you do have a good point there. One has to wonder what happens to people who turn to these phonies for healing of medical problems....

There are quacks and frauds doing all kinds of "holistic medicine" out there. One has to be careful...

Jim and I have two different trains of thought on this... he does not believe in white man's medicine and will not use it.... I do believe in white man's medicine and will use a white doctor, if I feel that it is necessary....
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Old 03-03-2009, 01:35 PM   #236
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Nel you do have a good point there. One has to wonder what happens to people who turn to these phonies for healing of medical problems....
It depends upon whether or not they have medicine.

That's not OUR call to make.
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Old 03-03-2009, 01:41 PM   #237
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So, if the Medicine Man is "real" to you, do you still care?
I'm not sure if I understand the question, Zeke, but I will try to answer honestly here.

The "Medicine Man" is not real to me, as a healer. I was raised Protestant. I come from a long line of Methodists.

Please let me know if that's not what you meant.

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Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
What's to expose, if it's not about $$$?
It's about the health of the people being scammed. At least, it is for me. And I do care about that.

Last edited by neling4; 03-03-2009 at 01:56 PM..
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Old 03-03-2009, 02:48 PM   #238
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since I believe everyone has power within them but not all are trained to use it properly, not all use it in a good way etc etc, I feel the fake is a danger to others in:

A)phisically harmful to those needing physical healing if using physical medicines like teas and stuff

B)spiritually harmful (more so with thise acting in a bad way)

C)socially harmful as some of our own looking for thier culture if removed from it (I feel this one personally cause being adopted that could have been me)

D) socially annoying, yep just find it annoying, and they spread weird ideas about us.

If you are worried about it financially then your just as bad cause you shouldn't be selling help, that should be free. Yeah I sew for people, (which I see as differnt then medicine people selling stuff...semantics maybe) but if someone asks for my help making something, I'll do that instead, there is more spirit in it if they want to put in the effort too...in my opinion and I got a skill I want to share.

Last edited by SuzzeQ4; 03-03-2009 at 02:51 PM..
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Old 03-03-2009, 05:24 PM   #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
.Beyond that, they're impact is negligible.
Their impact, whether they intend it or not, is to spread a bunch of mis-information and stereotypes which leads to the people that they have misinformed spreading more misinformation.

Case in point. On another forum, I am on-a woman joined and she was talking about being excited about being in a Women's Native Drum circle. I was curious, so I pm'd her and asked a few questions. The info I got back made me form the opinion she was just a new ager. I said nothing else. This was about a year ago. A few weeks ago, she starts spouting how she is so nervous because she is going to be teaching/leading a new drum circle and she "wants to walk the red path". After managing not to barf all over the keyboard, I knew I had to say something-just to back my blood pressure off a few points. After a couple of days of thinking about it, I pm'd her. I introduced myself the way I was taught by my Grandfather to introduce myself when I was small. I told her I had never introduced myself to a white person like that before, but I hoped that by doing it, she would understand the point I was trying to make-that she was so far in left field with this stuff that she wasn't even in the park. Didn't phrase it like that, though. I asked if she knew the language these "sacred songs" she was drumming and chanting were in-did she know what they meant? Of course she didn't. For all it was worth, I could have been talking to a brick. I told her that if she took this stuff to an NDN forum, (I really wanted to give her a link to here), she would get chewed up and spit out as had others who had come before her with new age drivel. She could be teaching them the Cherokee Princess Polka and not one of them will know the difference because the "teacher doesn't know the difference either. They will believe it to be true.

In my eyes, that's the harm they are doing and the impact they and others like them, have.
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Old 03-03-2009, 05:28 PM   #240
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The "Cherokee Princess Polka"??? I like the sound of that. Where can I learn it? = )



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