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Old 07-25-2008, 01:38 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by annie_griffin View Post
...I find it strange that people playing dress up could be considered such a threat to anything.
Putting aside the metaphysical dimension of this type of appropriation, let us just speak of the effects of distortion. Native people are still the invisible Americans. Most in the dominant culture "know" what Indians are like. They draw on a 500+ year accretion of stereotypes to view us: We commune with nature; we are spiritual all the time; we all have "totem" animals; we have LSD-esque visions all the time....

When these charlatans pedal their faked wares as our essence, it just adds another layer. When real Native people speak out, we speak from the authority of our oral tradition, which to the dominant culture lacks the imprimatur of authenticity conferred upon anything that has been committed to paper and ink like these books. Our voice is drown out.

Given enough time and enough lies, real Native people and their ways will come to fail to fulfill dominant culture fantasy and thus satisfy their standards of authenticity. Ultimately, the performances of those practicing their fraudulent and stolen versions of Native lifeways come to be regarded as "real". The conquerer takes up our skin and supplants us. And once the invaders become the Natives, the Indian problem is "solved".

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Originally Posted by annie_griffin View Post
I find it odd that people being intentionally hurt spiritually as some kind of revenge for this dress up is applauded.
I don't think anyone wants these sad people victimized. Which is part of why many of us warn about these individual's actions. I've spoken with several people who have come to this board seeking guidance who have been sexually victimized in the context of "ceremonies."
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Old 07-25-2008, 01:48 PM   #62
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Given enough time and enough lies, real Native people and their ways will come to fail to fulfill dominant culture fantasy and thus satisfy their standards of authenticity. Ultimately, the performances of those practicing their fraudulent and stolen versions of Native lifeways come to be regarded as "real". The conquerer takes up our skin and supplants us. And once the invaders become the Natives, the Indian problem is "solved".

Very well worded!
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Old 07-25-2008, 02:50 PM   #63
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Does it seem to you that more Native people are getting sucked into the commercialization of their own spiritual culture, for the money and fame? Certainly there are more non-Indian plastic shamans and shamanesses (lol) than Native ones, but it makes me wonder why such people sell out when they know they will get caught eventually and the consequences can be severe.

White Americans and Europeans do go gaga over some of the world's other cultures. The Hindu guru-disciple system is a common one. I roll my eyes every time I see a male swami or guru with a young, cute, sari-clad white American "girlfriend" in tow. Here too, its hard to figure out the real spiritual people from the fake ones.
AHO! MITAKUYE OYASIN,

that is what we are saying, there is a buy here pay here medicine man in our town, my aunt was mislead and married him while he cheated on her all of the time. He is in it for the fame. We see him at powwows an here an there an just the way he walks like a movie star its ridiculous...

just watch an observe the rest will follow an you can tell...
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Old 07-25-2008, 02:54 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Blackbear View Post
I watched Wife Swap on Wednesday and was surprised by the family they had their that were known to be "intellectuals". They not only were ghost hunters who believed the specks of dust in their digital photos to be "orbs" but the father was standing in the middle of a cemetary in IL where they are from, supposedly singing a prayer song cause he's of course, a shaman. And even though he was speaking in Lakota, his song was the iroquois Robin Dance... better known as a Smoke Dance song LOL!! Where do people come up with this stuff? Is it THAT easy to fall for or are people just that ill in the world???
that sounds like a joke... lol

re arrange it a lil bit an put it in the joke thread.... that is a good one!!!
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Old 10-03-2008, 12:36 PM   #65
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Old 10-09-2008, 11:20 AM   #66
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exposing fake medicine people

Could it be we are talking about a different Sun Bear? I had a girl in my class in boarding school whose last name was Sun Bear and she was Lakota. I guess I kind of want to believe that Winona LaDuke's relative is not what we think he was.
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Old 10-09-2008, 11:49 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by blueskysmom View Post
Could it be we are talking about a different Sun Bear? I had a girl in my class in boarding school whose last name was Sun Bear and she was Lakota. I guess I kind of want to believe that Winona LaDuke's relative is not what we think he was.
Sun Bear (aka Vincent LaDuke; aka Gheezis Mokwa) was White Earth Ojibwa
Born: 1929 (White Earth Rez - Minnesota)
Died: 1992
Founder of the Bear Tribe Medicine Society

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Black Dawn, Bright Day: Indian Prophecies for the Millenium that Reveal the Fate of the Earth
New York: Simon & Schuster, 1992.

Dreaming with the wheel: how to interpret and work with your dreams using the medicine wheel
New York : Simon & Schuster, 1994.

The medicine wheel: earth astrology
New York: Fireside Book, 1992.

Sun Bear, the path of power: as told to Wabun and to Barry Weinstock
New York: Prentice Hall Press, 1987.

Walk in balance: the path to healthy, happy, harmonious living
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Old 10-09-2008, 12:09 PM   #68
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exposing fake medicine people

Thanks Historian. I guess I had to have that confirmed for sure. I'm not too concerned about all the plastic medicine people (new agers) running around (non natives) cause they will get their due. I am worried about our indian people who are into spirituality for the money. Our belief is that even their innocent relatives will get hurt. If they were true Natives at heart and know the philosophy of the Red Road then they wouldn't be doing such terrible things. Innocent people are affected. What goes around comes around.
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Old 10-22-2008, 05:20 PM   #69
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A lot of medicine men, if it weren't for government housing, wouldn't have a roof over their heads. A lot of tribes don't take care of their holy people, they leave them to hold their own. In one case, the medicine man had worked off reservation in a job that provided him with a small retirement pension, or he would have had no money coming in.

People seem to think that the government just hands money to Indian people to squander. The truth is that while the BIA had control of individual properties allotted to tribal members the BIA rented it out to white farmers and ranchers at $20 per year per 1000 acres. Since most tribal members had less than 1000 acres, that wasn't much of an annual income.

One woman I know received a check for 33 cents back when a pack of cigarettes cost 30 cents plus 3 cents tax in the town where she was living. She was flat broke and needed smokes, so she cashed the check and got a pack of cigarettes, for her share of a year's rental agreement.

The medicine man with the small pension lived on commodities, as did his family. He would mix maple flavoring with commodities corn syrup and use that on his pancakes made from commodities. Having a sandwich made with store bought balogney and store bought bread was a luxury. Instead, his wife made bread from commodities flour or they wouldn't have had bread in the house.

Given that kind of poverty, is it really some kind of mystery why the holy people leave the reservation and start charging people who actually have money for ceremonies?

The tribes who have a support system set up for their holy people don't seem to have a problem with their holy people abandoning the reservation for greener pastures. So whose fault is it that there are medicine men for hire?
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Old 11-01-2008, 08:48 AM   #70
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Some more "interesting" websites.

SPIRITUAL MEDICINE

Path Of The Feather

Information about Dreaming Shaman

The Mesa Creative Arts Center Medicine Wheel

Rainbow Eagle: Seventh Fire Peace Shield Teacher

Wind Spirit Teaching

Event Description

My Discovery Path - Becoming I Am SPIRITGuides
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Old 12-03-2008, 11:59 PM   #71
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What good are all your words

Did it ever occur to anyone that people ask about a medicine person because they are in actual need of help and by not helping that person other people are getting hurt. Traditional people.
I had the honor of meeting a traditional medicine person
and the honor of meeting a young man who would have become a spiritual leader to his people.
I'd like to know when exactly it became more important to pick people apart than to take them at their word.
What good are all your words.
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Old 12-04-2008, 12:59 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by annie_griffin View Post
Did it ever occur to anyone that people ask about a medicine person because they are in actual need of help and by not helping that person other people are getting hurt. Traditional people.
I had the honor of meeting a traditional medicine person
and the honor of meeting a young man who would have become a spiritual leader to his people.
I'd like to know when exactly it became more important to pick people apart than to take them at their word.
What good are all your words.
The good of our words is the preservation of our culture and the protection against con artists and the mis-use/mis-understanding of medicine. Not a hard concept to grasp.
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Old 12-04-2008, 01:43 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by annie_griffin View Post
Did it ever occur to anyone that people ask about a medicine person because they are in actual need of help and by not helping that person other people are getting hurt. Traditional people.
I had the honor of meeting a traditional medicine person
and the honor of meeting a young man who would have become a spiritual leader to his people.
I'd like to know when exactly it became more important to pick people apart than to take them at their word.
What good are all your words.
Yes

But then I have never met one that Advertised
or Had a Price Menu for services rendered
Charged for a Sweat Lodge by the Head

But then again this thread is not about the legit ones
is it????

If you have read the starting post and alot of the information that has been posted on here about the frauds fakes and flakes and still have issues with our words
Then thankfully you live in a country that allows you to have your own opinion
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Old 12-04-2008, 10:04 AM   #74
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Old 12-04-2008, 10:24 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiffany.redfeather View Post
AHO! MITAKUYE OYASIN,

that is what we are saying, there is a buy here pay here medicine man in our town, my aunt was mislead and married him while he cheated on her all of the time. He is in it for the fame. We see him at powwows an here an there an just the way he walks like a movie star its ridiculous...

just watch an observe the rest will follow an you can tell...
Hey tiffany, hope all is well with you! We had one here too, he always started a sentence with :"do you have a hundred bucks?" He got tossed out on his azzzzz by his wife for doing young gals, so I did a bit of research, he's been tossed from Tenessee to here, same reasons different towns! His latest wife tossed his stuff out in the rain, when he fournd out it was about a few weeks of sitting out on the road!!! Creator took care of everything ,,, as well as passing cars and trucks soaking it even better!!! I ask myself if he ever got the hint with his $100.00 healings!
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Old 12-04-2008, 12:44 PM   #76
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Josiah and all,
Your words mean a lot to me. I spoke in anger and haste.
I am very sad at the loss of a fellow walker from LW2.






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Old 12-04-2008, 01:12 PM   #77
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Old 12-16-2008, 12:51 PM   #78
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Am I the only one that thinks having a Lakota Sun Dance in places like California or Indiana is kinda weird?


Taken from:
Sun Dance Ceremony - American Indian/Native American 1st Nati - tribe.net

Sun Dance Ceremony topic posted Fri, August 1, 2008

Indian Creek Sacred Sundance
Invitation to Come
Indigenous Indian and Non-Natives Welcome
All Spiritual & Traditional Leaders are Welcome

Taylorsville, California
Purification: August 6th-9th
Tree Day: August 10th
Dance Days: August 11th-14th

Contact Intercessor:
Charles Fast Horse @ 530 356-6851
Gene Radino @ 209 606-6493
Email: Charles @ [email protected]

MapQuest: Map of 2100 Genesee Rd Taylorsville, CA by MapQuest

Please No: Alcohol, Drugs, Marijuana, Guns or Weapons, Cameras, cassette recorders, video cameras, devices, drawing sketches, recording devices, any form of media. This is not a spectator entertainment or stage.

Donations are Needed: Blankets for Sweats, Food, Travel Expenses, Etc.


Attention: The (I.C.S.S.) is a group of elders, relatives, and close friends. In the past many of our friends could not attend the meetings held in Modesto, CA. Many live far and in between. Our project for posters to advertise the event, for stationary, and telephone calls were on a shoe string budget. All who come will expect at lease that main course of a noon meal. This reflects the traditional Lakota give away custom, and it must be done. The remarkable thing is that although people do not advise the intercessor in advance as to whether they will be present, the expectation is that sufficient food be on hand and cooked. This latter operation requiring enormous effort in itself. Bread, coffee, kool-aid sugar, salt, pepper, payment for singers, etc., some who travel some distance or who lose work time a small share of the overall income as compensation.
Hopefully this will help us.
Charles Fast Horse

************
Taken from:
sundance ceremony

and:
saltcreek sundance ceremony - Sundance Ceremony

2008 will be the 17th annual Salt Creek Sundance Ceremony. The sundance is not a rite of passage into manhood, nor is it a test of bravery or courage. Rather, the sundance is a form of prayer. It is one of the seven sacred ceremonies given to the Lakota people.

Saltcreek Sundance is a Lakota Native American Sundance Ceremony. It is a sacred ceremony among the Lakota people. It is not entertainment. The Native American sponsors share the Great Spirit through songs and prayers. Please join us on this red road. Saltcreek Sundance is open to all of the people, not just those of Native American blood. We welcome all regardless of race or religion.

17th Annual Salt Creek Sundance

Location:
Sundance Lake, between Freetown and Nashville, Indiana
Leader:
Stephen McCullough, Indiana
Event Detail:
This is a Ceremonial Sundance please phone for protocol information and directions to this very spiritual event.

This is a Lakota Native American Sundance Ceremony. It is a sacred ceremony among the Lakota people. It is not entertainment. The Native American sponsors share the Great Spirit through songs and prayers.

Message from the organizers -- "Sundance is a time and a place for prayer. We ask that all people native and non native respect our ways, as we do yours. There is no charge or monetary fee. There never has been and never will be. Our religion is not for sale."

SUNDANCE RULES

Women on their moon, or monthly cycle can not come to the Sundance, or even be on the grounds.

There are no drugs, alcohol, fire arms profanity, pets (especially dogs), cameras, video cameras, sketch pads, recording equipment, or violence allowed on the Sundance grounds.

If you choose not to comply with Sundance rules, you will be asked to leave.

Everyone is responsible for their own camp sites. Bring every thing you need for primitive camping. Those who camp are expected to help with all chores, such as security, kitchen duty, trash pickup, and keeping the creek bank clear of any trash or debris. Families with small children are responsible for them, and to know where they are at all times. Children under 16 must be in their camp by 11:00 p.m.

DONATIONS

We have a great need for sage, cedar, sweet grass, and firewood for the ceremony. The kitchen needs coffee, tea, drinks of all kinds, as well as trash bags, peanut butter, jelly, bologna, bread. Extra tents, lanterns, and tables are needed on loan, and paper products of all kinds, including bowls, plates, and toilet paper are requested. We have expenses such as the port-a-pots and dumpsters, $3,980. We also cover travel expenses for the helpers and singers. All financial donations are appreciated.

DIRECTIONS

Coming from the south, go 6 miles north or Freetown, IN on Highway 135 then turn east (right) on County Road 1190 North. Go 3 miles bearing left following the ribbons. At Sundance Lake, follow the fire lane down to the bottom.

Coming from the north, go 15 miles south of Nashville, IN on Highway 135 then turn left on County Road 1190 North. Go 3 miles bearing left following the ribbons. At Sundance Lake follow the fire lane down to the bottom.

HOSTS

Stephen and Gwen McCullough; Phone (812) 735 -2868
8578 North Pine Bluff Road, Bicknell, IN 47512
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Old 12-16-2008, 01:02 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Historian View Post
Am I the only one that thinks having a Lakota Sun Dance in places like California or Indiana is kinda weird?


Taken from:
Sun Dance Ceremony - American Indian/Native American 1st Nati - tribe.net

Sun Dance Ceremony topic posted Fri, August 1, 2008

Indian Creek Sacred Sundance
Invitation to Come
Indigenous Indian and Non-Natives Welcome
All Spiritual & Traditional Leaders are Welcome

Taylorsville, California
Purification: August 6th-9th
Tree Day: August 10th
Dance Days: August 11th-14th

Contact Intercessor:
Charles Fast Horse @ 530 356-6851
Gene Radino @ 209 606-6493
Email: Charles @ [email protected]

MapQuest: Map of 2100 Genesee Rd Taylorsville, CA by MapQuest

Please No: Alcohol, Drugs, Marijuana, Guns or Weapons, Cameras, cassette recorders, video cameras, devices, drawing sketches, recording devices, any form of media. This is not a spectator entertainment or stage.

Donations are Needed: Blankets for Sweats, Food, Travel Expenses, Etc.


Attention: The (I.C.S.S.) is a group of elders, relatives, and close friends. In the past many of our friends could not attend the meetings held in Modesto, CA. Many live far and in between. Our project for posters to advertise the event, for stationary, and telephone calls were on a shoe string budget. All who come will expect at lease that main course of a noon meal. This reflects the traditional Lakota give away custom, and it must be done. The remarkable thing is that although people do not advise the intercessor in advance as to whether they will be present, the expectation is that sufficient food be on hand and cooked. This latter operation requiring enormous effort in itself. Bread, coffee, kool-aid sugar, salt, pepper, payment for singers, etc., some who travel some distance or who lose work time a small share of the overall income as compensation.
Hopefully this will help us.
Charles Fast Horse

************
Taken from:
sundance ceremony

and:
saltcreek sundance ceremony - Sundance Ceremony

2008 will be the 17th annual Salt Creek Sundance Ceremony. The sundance is not a rite of passage into manhood, nor is it a test of bravery or courage. Rather, the sundance is a form of prayer. It is one of the seven sacred ceremonies given to the Lakota people.

Saltcreek Sundance is a Lakota Native American Sundance Ceremony. It is a sacred ceremony among the Lakota people. It is not entertainment. The Native American sponsors share the Great Spirit through songs and prayers. Please join us on this red road. Saltcreek Sundance is open to all of the people, not just those of Native American blood. We welcome all regardless of race or religion.

17th Annual Salt Creek Sundance

Location:
Sundance Lake, between Freetown and Nashville, Indiana
Leader:
Stephen McCullough, Indiana
Event Detail:
This is a Ceremonial Sundance please phone for protocol information and directions to this very spiritual event.

This is a Lakota Native American Sundance Ceremony. It is a sacred ceremony among the Lakota people. It is not entertainment. The Native American sponsors share the Great Spirit through songs and prayers.

Message from the organizers -- "Sundance is a time and a place for prayer. We ask that all people native and non native respect our ways, as we do yours. There is no charge or monetary fee. There never has been and never will be. Our religion is not for sale."

SUNDANCE RULES

Women on their moon, or monthly cycle can not come to the Sundance, or even be on the grounds.

There are no drugs, alcohol, fire arms profanity, pets (especially dogs), cameras, video cameras, sketch pads, recording equipment, or violence allowed on the Sundance grounds.

If you choose not to comply with Sundance rules, you will be asked to leave.

Everyone is responsible for their own camp sites. Bring every thing you need for primitive camping. Those who camp are expected to help with all chores, such as security, kitchen duty, trash pickup, and keeping the creek bank clear of any trash or debris. Families with small children are responsible for them, and to know where they are at all times. Children under 16 must be in their camp by 11:00 p.m.

DONATIONS

We have a great need for sage, cedar, sweet grass, and firewood for the ceremony. The kitchen needs coffee, tea, drinks of all kinds, as well as trash bags, peanut butter, jelly, bologna, bread. Extra tents, lanterns, and tables are needed on loan, and paper products of all kinds, including bowls, plates, and toilet paper are requested. We have expenses such as the port-a-pots and dumpsters, $3,980. We also cover travel expenses for the helpers and singers. All financial donations are appreciated.

DIRECTIONS

Coming from the south, go 6 miles north or Freetown, IN on Highway 135 then turn east (right) on County Road 1190 North. Go 3 miles bearing left following the ribbons. At Sundance Lake, follow the fire lane down to the bottom.

Coming from the north, go 15 miles south of Nashville, IN on Highway 135 then turn left on County Road 1190 North. Go 3 miles bearing left following the ribbons. At Sundance Lake follow the fire lane down to the bottom.

HOSTS

Stephen and Gwen McCullough; Phone (812) 735 -2868
8578 North Pine Bluff Road, Bicknell, IN 47512
I would use the word:

BIZZARE
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Till I Die!

Last edited by Josiah; 12-16-2008 at 01:05 PM..
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Old 12-16-2008, 02:40 PM   #80
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OMG! An invitation to a Sun Dance open to everyone? What is this world coming to?
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