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Old 01-17-2009, 10:57 AM   #121
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...and then there is this website:

People for Indigenous Preservation and the Environment

Sundance Songs?
http://www.pipehome.com/music.html
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Old 01-18-2009, 05:54 AM   #122
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I guess I don't really understand why this site is posted in this thread. Are you familiar with Nathan Chasing Horse and the Chasing Horse family? Also are you questioning if those are sundance songs ( which they are) or questioning their being on the net?
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Old 01-18-2009, 08:17 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mato Winyan View Post
I guess I don't really understand why this site is posted in this thread. Are you familiar with Nathan Chasing Horse and the Chasing Horse family? Also are you questioning if those are sundance songs ( which they are) or questioning their being on the net?
Yes, I'm familiar with Nathan Chasing Horse. For those who don't know, Nathan Chasing Horse is best known for his acting role in Dances With Wolves as "Smiles A Lot". He's also been in a number of other films including DreamKeeper and The Broken Chain, and was a consultant on the film Thunderheart.

I know they're Sun Dance songs. I'm just wondering why they've been posted on the internet.
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Old 01-18-2009, 09:53 AM   #124
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The Two tribes that I am personally familiar with that still actively Sundance every year dont post there music on the Net
Whole groups of those two Tribe participate in the Sundance not just one family going off and doing their "own" thing

I guess I have a problem with the way they have "used" the knowledge, to Legitimize the message of the Sterotypically Spiritual PanIndian.

Why use the Sundance in such a way to get your message across in the first place???
The ones that actually Sundance already know the power of it and participate in that ceremony every year with the tribe at their sundance grounds. It does not need to be assmilated to the net and spread around for ones that would use it for there own personal gain to use as they see fit.
To get some Spiritual Message to all that surf in and would not understand what the actual sundance really is except for the message this website is trying to show:
A nontribal specific message of the STEROTYPICAL SPIRITUAL PANINDIAN taking care of the enviroment.
Buh...
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Old 01-18-2009, 03:42 PM   #125
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Goodness!! I have never heard of sundance songs on the net- I personally know some people that record them for themselves & family, so they won't be lost, but I haven't heard on anything being posted on the net. I gotta ask my friend from Oglala whats up w/ that & if he's heard anything....
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Old 01-18-2009, 05:25 PM   #126
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I once had a history teacher that said that you could found a new age mumbo jumbo religion on the worship of a rutabaga, and people would pay to join it. So why is anyone surprised that all of these poor mis-guided souls would pay to find something that their lives are missing. I feel sorry for them.

I was at a pow-wow a little over a year ago and a guy was handing out business cards saying that he was a spiritual leader and a medicine man, this man was a respected elder on the pow-wow circuit. He wasn't asking for money but it made me go HUH???? No true spiritual leader or medicine man would do something like that. A lot of us lost all respect for the older gentleman because of this.

Another guy runs around the circuit doing card reading and arua readings no charge. He personally offends me but most people overlook him and tell the un-informed that this is not a Native American thing that he is doing.

I so often wonder about the wannabes, why do they so want to be Native Americans, why do they try so hard to be us??? I think that it is because they think that it will fix whatever is missing in their lives. They think that we know some great secret and they want to know it too.
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Old 01-19-2009, 10:23 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by steelemagnolia63 View Post
I so often wonder about the wannabes, why do they so want to be Native Americans, why do they try so hard to be us??? I think that it is because they think that it will fix whatever is missing in their lives. They think that we know some great secret and they want to know it too.
I agree. I think so many people today have a great hole in their lives. A void that needs to be filled. They look for ideas in others to fill this void. I see whites dressed in Saris (Indian style), Yogic clothing, Buddhist too. All these things belong to someone else's culture and religions. "If you cannot find happiness within, look around you and see who looks happy and do what they do!" While we may see it most in our own culture, other cultures are having this same thing happening. Those cultures too have folks willing to sell out information to the whites for a buck. It is just sad that so many people out there cannot find internal peace and happiness.
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Old 01-19-2009, 12:00 PM   #128
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The Two tribes that I am personally familiar with that still actively Sundance every year dont post there music on the Net
Whole groups of those two Tribe participate in the Sundance not just one family going off and doing their "own" thing

I guess I have a problem with the way they have "used" the knowledge, to Legitimize the message of the Sterotypically Spiritual PanIndian.

Why use the Sundance in such a way to get your message across in the first place???
The ones that actually Sundance already know the power of it and participate in that ceremony every year with the tribe at their sundance grounds. It does not need to be assmilated to the net and spread around for ones that would use it for there own personal gain to use as they see fit.
To get some Spiritual Message to all that surf in and would not understand what the actual sundance really is except for the message this website is trying to show:
A nontribal specific message of the STEROTYPICAL SPIRITUAL PANINDIAN taking care of the enviroment.
Buh...
I agree Tribes don't post the sacred songs but tribal members do. The one that posted these songs is a full blood Lakota. So what can ya do?


Historian...
Like I said before .... I don't know why this site was posted in this thread... is it being brought up that he is a fake medicine man?? If it's just about the songs then maybe another thread could be made.
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Old 01-19-2009, 12:35 PM   #129
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2 things. I'm with historian, I think he has posted in the right thread. Here's why: You can be a real NDN, doing ligitamatly NDN things and still be a fake medicine man based on how and why your doing it. Everyone knows that a real spirtual leader wouldn't post such things on the net, therefore fake.

Second:
All the wannabes want is our secret?
Ok here goes, all the wannabes out there listen up and follow this advice closely if you want our secret...
...the great NDN secret is that we are just being ourselves...the people we were born to be. In our case thats NDN.
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Old 01-19-2009, 02:54 PM   #130
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Good answer just being ourselves.......
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I am a bridge on the red path between my ancestors and the future. I am a bridge between my white heritage and my native heritage. A bridge joins two sides together and provides a way to move on..... A.K. O'Pry-Reynolds
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Old 01-19-2009, 05:51 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mato Winyan View Post
I agree Tribes don't post the sacred songs but tribal members do. The one that posted these songs is a full blood Lakota. So what can ya do?

Well Mato, I would be more then happy to email and ask him instead of speculating as to why. There may be a reasonable answer. It's better to get it direct then assume "on the wind".

Shall I instead of all of us assuming and taking the chance of being wrong?
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Old 01-19-2009, 08:32 PM   #132
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Well Mato, I would be more then happy to email and ask him instead of speculating as to why. There may be a reasonable answer. It's better to get it direct then assume "on the wind".

Shall I instead of all of us assuming and taking the chance of being wrong?
sounds like the right decision
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Old 01-19-2009, 09:53 PM   #133
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sounds like the right decision
Email is away! While we wait for an answer, may I say that those are the sweetest looking lady mocs I have seen in quite a while Suzze. Did you make them yourself? I would love a pair for my daughter. She is 15 going on 25!
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Old 01-19-2009, 10:51 PM   #134
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Email is away! While we wait for an answer, may I say that those are the sweetest looking lady mocs I have seen in quite a while Suzze. Did you make them yourself? I would love a pair for my daughter. She is 15 going on 25!
thanks, they are my baby's mocs. beaded fully (inc the bottom) but he has out grown them. and yes I did make them myself. sure I can make your girl a pair, just pm me.
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Old 01-24-2009, 10:01 AM   #135
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2 things. I'm with historian, I think he has posted in the right thread. Here's why: You can be a real NDN, doing ligitamatly NDN things and still be a fake medicine man based on how and why your doing it. Everyone knows that a real spirtual leader wouldn't post such things on the net, therefore fake...
While it is true that elders purposely allowed songs to be recorded years ago in the early 1900s for the Smithsonian, it is my understanding that their intent was that future "singers" would be able to learn the recorded songs so that they would not be lost. Singers who would have the knowledge of the language and knowledge of the cultural context in which the songs should be sung.

Only singers with this type of knowledge would understand that there is sacred spiritual power in sundance songs that are sung correctly in the proper cultural context.

It is my personal belief that the elders did not intend the songs to be broadcast to the world over the internet for anyone to hear and duplicate, which allows the likelihood of the songs being misused and disrespected.

I am saddened that sundance songs would be presented in this way, and shocked that Nathan, who comes from a traditional family, would have allowed it.

BTW - On the website in question, People for Indigenous Preservation and the Environment there is an introductory letter from Nathan. At the end of the letter it is posted as:

Nathan Chasing Horse
Wambli Gi
Wichasha Wakan


For those unfamiliar with Lakota language, let me translate...

"Wambli Gi"
wambli = 'eagle'
gi = 'brown' or 'chestnut' in color
(i.e. "Brown Eagle")

"Wichasha Wakan"
wichasha = 'man' or 'person'
wakan = 'sacred' or 'holy'
(i.e. "Holy Man" or "Sacred Person")

It would seem that Nathan is now calling himself a "Holy Man".
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Old 01-24-2009, 12:55 PM   #136
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While it is true that elders purposely allowed songs to be recorded years ago in the early 1900s for the Smithsonian, it is my understanding that their intent was that future "singers" would be able to learn the recorded songs so that they would not be lost. Singers who would have the knowledge of the language and knowledge of the cultural context in which the songs should be sung.

Only singers with this type of knowledge would understand that there is sacred spiritual power in sundance songs that are sung correctly in the proper cultural context.

It is my personal belief that the elders did not intend the songs to be broadcast to the world over the internet for anyone to hear and duplicate, which allows the likelihood of the songs being misused and disrespected.

I am saddened that sundance songs would be presented in this way, and shocked that Nathan, who comes from a traditional family, would have allowed it.

BTW - On the website in question, People for Indigenous Preservation and the Environment there is an introductory letter from Nathan. At the end of the letter it is posted as:

Nathan Chasing Horse
Wambli Gi
Wichasha Wakan


For those unfamiliar with Lakota language, let me translate...

"Wambli Gi"
wambli = 'eagle'
gi = 'brown' or 'chestnut' in color
(i.e. "Brown Eagle")

"Wichasha Wakan"
wichasha = 'man' or 'person'
wakan = 'sacred' or 'holy'
(i.e. "Holy Man" or "Sacred Person")

It would seem that Nathan is now calling himself a "Holy Man".
For the sake of arguement, I am going to take the other side. Please keep an opened mind. I intend no disrespect to any one here, our ancestors, or our Creator but the "other side" must be looked at objectively for a conclusion to be drawn.


We live in a progressive society. Our ancestors also live in a progressive society. When something new came into exhistance, our ancestors grasped the knowlege to use the tools. A good example would be the transition from the dog to the horse as a means of transportation. The horse was better and faster. If our ancestors would have had the use of a bucket instead of buffalo bladder to fetch water, they would have used it. We can see the modern progression from the bow to the rifle. If they could understand the item, they would have used the tool. So you can see that our ancestors are a progressive people just as we are today using the internet from our homes. Remember we no longer live in tipis, caves or long houses. Also remember if the white man did not invade our lands, we still would have progressed as a people.

Religion has always progressed in the same ways. The use of technology has always been used to "spread the word". Religion has progressed from word of mouth, to books, to recordings, radio, TV, and finally the internet.
Evangualism for many religions have also progressed in the same way. Our ancestors did infact record these songs to preserve them for future generations to be shared by the people. Why should we hide those songs when so many other religions use modern technology to promote their cause. Why should we not progress in the same way? After all our ancestors were a progressive people and always grasped the future.

When some of the old recordings were made, our ancestors let alone anyone else knew that we would progress to who we are now in the past 100 years.

If you wish to no longer progress as a people, turn your computer off now and remain stagnant. You may also want to go back to living in the way our ancestors did in caves, tipis and longhouses. Can you use a bow?

Remember these words reflect the other side and may not reflect my personal feelings. They are used only as an example.
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Old 01-26-2009, 04:15 PM   #137
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Remember these words reflect the other side and may not reflect my personal feelings. They are used only as an example.
But a good example.

Perhaps we shouldn't toss the baby with the bathwater but, more importantly, lets not forget what we're canonizing: bathwater.

It's not precious merely for existing.
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Old 01-26-2009, 04:53 PM   #138
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But a good example.
Thanks Zeke!

After thinking about it, I can remember a time when I was a kid. My grandfather was the man who took me into the circle. Back then women were not allowed in the circle. I remember my grandmother and mother watching from the outside in tears of happiness. Those were good days!

Now I watch my daughter dance the dance of a butterfly with my mother's tears in my eyes.

Look at how much our people have progressed since the 1960s. A short 50 years.
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Last edited by TKMJ Productions; 01-26-2009 at 05:04 PM.. Reason: because I needed to finish my words.
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Old 01-26-2009, 05:48 PM   #139
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Thanks Zeke!

Now I watch my daughter dance the dance of a butterfly with my mother's tears in my eyes.

Look at how much our people have progressed since the 1960s. A short 50 years.
Sure ya had to support Zeke with the Fancy Shawl card. After a point like that what kinda come back I'm I going to use?

OK I support the point on the issue of things change...but only can be considered tradition when we except it. And I don't think any of us except fakes as a good change although we may argue as to weather or not their being is harmful to our culture. I for one vote fakes are harmful to our culture only because some of our own get tangled in their web.
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Old 01-26-2009, 06:38 PM   #140
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Sure ya had to support Zeke with the Fancy Shawl card. After a point like that what kinda come back I'm I going to use?

OK I support the point on the issue of things change...but only can be considered tradition when we except it. And I don't think any of us except fakes as a good change although we may argue as to weather or not their being is harmful to our culture. I for one vote fakes are harmful to our culture only because some of our own get tangled in their web.
Well Suzzie, the best you can do it trump me with a jingle dress card or go fish.

If you really thing about it, wheather we like it or not, we are moving ahead as a people. Thinking about it. Maybe this sundance song thing is actually good. Look at what the crystal and new age punks are doing to our people on a whole giving us a bad name. This could be a way to post the truth and push the fakes out. Other religions push their agendas and music on the net. If Sundance was to be so secret, why do so many people know?

Remember I am still taking the other side for the sake of arguement.
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Don't ask me what I think about something unless you want a truthful anwser. It may not be the anwser you are looking for.

It's better to fly with the eagles then drive with the turkeys.

Duct tape has a light side and dark side that binds our universe together.

Bad attatude lessons available here. To inquire, Check the box to the right. []
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