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Forum Home - Go Back > General > Native Life > Native Issues Exposing The Fake Medicine Men And  Women Exposing The Fake Medicine Men And Women

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Old 01-27-2009, 08:04 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by TKMJ Productions View Post
...If you really thing about it, wheather we like it or not, we are moving ahead as a people. Thinking about it. Maybe this sundance song thing is actually good. Look at what the crystal and new age punks are doing to our people on a whole giving us a bad name. This could be a way to post the truth and push the fakes out. Other religions push their agendas and music on the net. If Sundance was to be so secret, why do so many people know?

Remember I am still taking the other side for the sake of arguement.
You make an interesting point.

From my perspective, Sundance traditions do not have to be secret, rather they should be respected.

In addition, for some things, when it comes to blending traditions and modern technology, just because we can, doesn't mean we should.
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Old 01-27-2009, 12:15 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Historian View Post
You make an interesting point.

From my perspective, Sundance traditions do not have to be secret, rather they should be respected.

In addition, for some things, when it comes to blending traditions and modern technology, just because we can, doesn't mean we should.
I can agree. Sundance should be respected and is by many tribal members. The problems I see are not made by true tribal members. Take for example the Indiana sundance of the fakes. There is a lot of stuff there that is so far off base it isn't funny. So infact those people are disrespecting the meaning and understanding of Sundance. Over the years I have been to several Sundances as a visitor and yes to the one in Indiana once. Never again will I go to Indiana because it is not done correctly. I will not go into detail and believe that you now why.

Real Sundance is done much differently in a very respectful way by tribal members who know what they are doing. Members are groomed to do this from an early age. You just don't walk in and participate as they do in Indiana without the knowlege needed. You can't get the education to do Sundance from a book or weekend forum. It's a lifelong process.
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Old 01-29-2009, 04:05 PM   #143
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After reading this thread, I can't help wondring what my Grandfather would think of all this new age garbage. He spent years with white people who tried to beat and burn the "Indian" out of him. They sure as heck didn't want to be Ndn. And just a few decades later...here we are talking about fakes trying to fill voids in their empty lives.

Never mind, I know what he would think. He would think it was all buffalo chips.
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Old 01-30-2009, 06:07 PM   #144
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Talking

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Originally Posted by SuzzeQ4 View Post
2 things. I'm with historian, I think he has posted in the right thread. Here's why: You can be a real NDN, doing ligitamatly NDN things and still be a fake medicine man based on how and why your doing it. Everyone knows that a real spirtual leader wouldn't post such things on the net, therefore fake.

Second:
All the wannabes want is our secret?
Ok here goes, all the wannabes out there listen up and follow this advice closely if you want our secret...
...the great NDN secret is that we are just being ourselves...the people we were born to be. In our case thats NDN.
I guess the wannabes want to know the taste of commodity cheese & canned beef, and want to have to seal the holes in the walls of your house with tar-paper, cuz the gov't won't give you help to repair it. & they want to run to the falling-in outhouse at 3am in-30 degree weather., they want to know the NDN experience, but they weren't born NDN- they couldn't handle it, thats why us genuine NDNs were born NDN- we have the stuff to put up w/ all the crap thrown at us & still make grand entry on time!!!!
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Old 01-30-2009, 06:49 PM   #145
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I guess the wannabes want to know the taste of commodity cheese & canned beef, and want to have to seal the holes in the walls of your house with tar-paper, cuz the gov't won't give you help to repair it. & they want to run to the falling-in outhouse at 3am in-30 degree weather., they want to know the NDN experience, but they weren't born NDN- they couldn't handle it, thats why us genuine NDNs were born NDN- we have the stuff to put up w/ all the crap thrown at us & still make grand entry on time!!!!
No matter how many kids we have!!
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Old 01-30-2009, 07:25 PM   #146
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I guess the wannabes want to know the taste of commodity cheese & canned beef, and want to have to seal the holes in the walls of your house with tar-paper, cuz the gov't won't give you help to repair it. & they want to run to the falling-in outhouse at 3am in-30 degree weather., they want to know the NDN experience, but they weren't born NDN- they couldn't handle it, thats why us genuine NDNs were born NDN- we have the stuff to put up w/ all the crap thrown at us & still make grand entry on time!!!!
As far as the commodity cheese & canned beef, that's good eaten stuff. Much better then that boxed stuff the wannabe buy for their kids. I never used tar paper for the holes. I'm a big fan of duct tape. But you forgot to mention the need to learn to patch the walls in the dark because the power lines dropped out a week ago and the electric company didn't get to you yet. It doesn't matter if only your area power is out and they are too busy sleeping in the trucks 50 miles away. Because you live on the rez, they will get to you sometime before spring. Maybe! Don't forget to chop up some wood for the fireplace too because it's the only heat you have.

I wonder how the wanabi kids would feel about home made gifts at Christmas instead of something from Walmart. Personally think back, I would rather take the home made stuff over store bought because they were made with love from nothing. Kinda magical, don't ya think!

Give me two knives and one wanabi for a one week crash course in being NDN. I'lll show em the way and protect them from harm. It's the best weight loss program around too!

We gonna live off the land!
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Old 01-30-2009, 08:30 PM   #147
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Give me two knives and one wanabi for a one week crash course in being NDN. I'lll show em the way and protect them from harm. It's the best weight loss program around too!

We gonna live off the land!
at one of the powwows this summer a moose got hit by a truck and so they called all the Women over to butcher it. The hippie tourists were runnin right over to partake in somethin really NDN and then running away when the work started.
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Old 01-30-2009, 10:10 PM   #148
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You should have seen the look on a friends face when she told me that she hit a deer and I asked her if she cut it's throat and threw it in the trunk for me....she almost passed out...
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Old 01-30-2009, 11:17 PM   #149
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Old 01-31-2009, 06:16 AM   #150
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Yuch! Discusting! That's Horrid! EHUuuuuuuuuuu.

Let's eat!
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Old 01-31-2009, 06:35 AM   #151
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I was thinking all that going to waste!!!! LOL... of course the folks that I used to work with thought that I was some kind of nut cause the hubby and I have been know to stop for porkies in the road..... Hey if they aren't beat up to bad there is porky hair to be had... that stuff is like 50 bucks an ounce... Hubby is tying new roaches right now... one for himself and one for a gift for a friend,s son......

could you imagine a wannabe or a plastic medicine man picking porky hair on the side of the road??
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Old 01-31-2009, 11:01 AM   #152
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Honest Injun?
The incidence of fake Indians is almost epidemic.
By John J. Miller
National Review - 27 January 2006
John J. Miller on Fake Indians on National Review Online

In his book The Education of Little Tree, Forrest Carter tells the tender tale of becoming an orphan and growing up in the Appalachian boondocks under the careful watch of his Cherokee grandparents. The book is full of sweet lessons about the importance of family and the need to live in harmony with nature. There's quite a backstory to it as well. First published in 1976, The Education of Little Tree received warm reviews and garnered a cult following, but wasn't a commercial hit. Ten years later, the University of New Mexico Press bought the rights to it for just $500.

That purchase ranks as one of the publishing industry's most lucrative coups: The Education of Little Tree has since sold hundreds of thousands of copies. "The values as well as the prose touched many who didn't usually read," wrote Prof. Rennard Strickland in a foreword to the original paperback edition. "Students of Native American life discovered the book to be as accurate as it was mystical and romantic." On June 23, 1991, the book debuted on the New York Times bestseller list for paperback nonfiction. It remained there throughout the summer and well into the fall, eventually rising to the top position. Then, on November 10, it vanished — and reappeared on the bestseller list for paperback fiction.

That's because it had been exposed as a fraud. Forrest Carter was really Asa Carter, a white supremacist who had written speeches for Alabama governor George Wallace in the 1960s. Wallace's viciously memorable line — "Segregation now! Segregation tomorrow! Segregation forever!" — probably came from Carter's pen. Carter, who died in 1979, was a forerunner to such fabulists as Stephen Glass and Jayson Blair. He was no Indian and his famous book was no memoir.

Carter was one of the more spectacular examples of a white person trying to come off as an Indian. There is a long history of this make-believe behavior, going back at least as far as the Boston Tea Party. The 19th and 20th centuries saw the emergence of fraternal orders and other organizations that aped Indian identities. Yet nobody seriously believed the Campfire Girls were the authentic daughters of Sitting Bull. That's not the case with some of the most recent forms of real Indian bull, as Carter and The Education of Little Tree demonstrate. "It's an epidemic," complains Vernon Bellecourt of the American Indian Movement. "These people are culture vultures, and their motive is to make money."

Between 1960 and 2000, the number of Americans claiming Indian ancestry on their census forms jumped by a factor of six. Neither birthrates nor counting methodologies can account for this explosive growth. Instead, the phenomenon arises in large part from the increasingly idealistic place Indians occupy in the popular imagination. Much of it is based on harmless sentiment mixed into a hash of unverifiable family legends and wishful thinking among folks who hang dreamcatchers from their rearview mirrors. But for a distinct subset, it's all about personal profit. They're professional imposters who have built entire careers by putting the sham into shaman.

The most famous of these pretenders is probably Iron Eyes Cody, the actor who starred in those Keep America Beautiful television ads during the 1970s. It turns out that the tear — actually glycerin — trickling down his sad face wasn't his only deception. Iron Eyes Cody was born Espera DeCorti, the son of Italian immigrants. His black hair and bronze skin apparently came from his mother's Sicilian side. Although many Indians who met him harbored doubts about his true identity, Iron Eyes turned his trickery into a successful career in Hollywood. He performed as an Indian in more than a hundred films, all the while insisting that his father was Cherokee and his mother Cree. His published autobiography is a pack of lies. The full truth came out only after his death in 1999.

The latest phony Indian to be unmasked is Ward Churchill, the University of Colorado professor who recently ruffled feathers for calling the victims of the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center "little Eichmanns" whose massacre was a "penalty befitting their participation in" global capitalism. Churchill is an all-too-predictable product of the modern academy. He is a tenured "ethnic studies" specialist, but he does not hold a doctorate in anything, and his scholarship, if it can be called that, is riddled with errors and left-wing posturing. The man is a buffoon.

Churchill can get away with so few credentials and such a heap of sloppiness because he claims to speak on behalf of a disenfranchised minority. The basis for this assertion rests on Churchill's ancestry, which he has variously described as three-sixteenths Cherokee and one-sixteenth Cree. Yet he has never provided any documentary evidence on his background, which Indians commonly do to prove their status within a tribe. He did gain membership to the Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians in 1994, but it was an associate membership that was temporarily available to people who aren't in fact Indian. (Bill Clinton, who has said that his grandmother's grandmother was a Cherokee, is also an honorary member of the Keetoowah.)

"You can spot these phony baloneys across the continent," says Suzan Shown Harjo, a Cheyenne and Hodulgee Muscogee who first met Churchill about 15 years ago. "Right away, I could tell he was a faker because he refused to talk about his family."

Churchill served in Vietnam — he has boasted about going on dangerous jungle missions, but Army records indicate that he mostly drove trucks — and at the time he listed himself as "Caucasian." He switched this to "American Indian" in 1978, when he filled out an affirmative-action form as part of his application to become a lecturer in Native American studies at Colorado. He has maintained this identity ever since, though the only corroboration he can offer — apart from his obvious fondness for the long-hair-and-dark-sunglasses look of a reservation activist — is his own word.

A less extravagant but more common fraud than masquerading as an "ethnic studies" expert involves the marketing of non-Indian arts and crafts as "Indian-made." The problem became so pervasive that Congress toughened truth-in-advertising laws against it in 1990. Businesses caught violating the Indian Arts and Crafts Act face penalties up to $1 million. That's peanuts to the gambling industry, of course, and the fast growth of tribal casinos has prompted many Americans to embark on genealogical hunting expeditions. The enormous Foxwoods casino in Connecticut, for example, was built by a small band of people who didn't normally refer to themselves as Pequot Indians until they realized a tribal identity was their ticket to gambling riches.

For others, Indian ancestry is a gateway to government set-aside programs. A public-works contractor in California managed to qualify as a disadvantaged businessman because a great-great-grandparent's contribution to the family gene pool had made him 1/64th Indian.

One of the most common forms of exploitation involves white writers who don't pretend to be Indians themselves but who claim special insights into Indian spirituality. In 1968, Carlos Castaneda, a UCLA graduate student in anthropology, published The Teachings of Don Juan, which was allegedly based on his clandestine visits with a reclusive Yaqui sorcerer in the Sonoran desert. The book purports to describe the mystical secrets of an ancient Indian faith, which happened to involve using a lot of hallucinogenic drugs. Castaneda's ramblings were in tune with the turn-on, drop-out times. His book became an international bestseller. Castaneda spent the next three decades refusing interviews and issuing sequels based on his supposed encounters with a man nobody else ever met. He died in 1998.

Another bestselling author, Lynn Andrews, has been dubbed "the female Carlos Castaneda," and it wasn't meant as an insult. Her first book, Medicine Woman, described a journey into the far reaches of Manitoba, where she met a pair of female sages. Then she returned home to Beverly Hills and has spent the rest of her life peddling New Age gobbledygook in subsequent books, through online courses, and at Hawaiian retreats. She is just a small part of a cottage industry that offers sweat-lodge "purification ceremonies" and tour-guided "rites of passage" in the wilderness. In 1993, the National Congress of American Indians became so frustrated by all these perversions of authentic religious traditions that it issued a "declaration of war" against "non-Indian 'wanna-bes,' hucksters, cultists, commercial profiteers, and self-styled New Age shamans."

Nobody likes a con artist, and it isn't difficult to find harsh critics of white people who "play Indian" for personal gain. One of their most scathing detractors has labeled Castaneda "the greatest hoax since Piltdown Man," called Andrews "an air-head 'feminist' yuppie," and branded Ruth Beebe Hill's Hanta Yo — yet another book of doubtful legitimacy — a "ludicrous performance." Taken together, these charlatans have "made a significant recent contribution (for profit) to the misrepresentation and appropriation of indigenous spirituality." What's more, they've "been tendered some measure of credibility by the 'certified scholars' of American universities."

But that's not all. By impersonating Indians and making them look like fools, these imposters are guilty of "cultural genocide."

That would seem to make them little Eichmanns, too. The author of these words? Ward Churchill.
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Old 01-31-2009, 04:16 PM   #153
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humpf.

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"We see it as a desecration not only of a mountain but of our way of life. This is a genocidal issue to us. If they kill this mountain, they kill our way of life." ~Debra White Plume
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Old 02-03-2009, 10:14 PM   #154
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by steelemagnolia63 View Post
I was thinking all that going to waste!!!! LOL... of course the folks that I used to work with thought that I was some kind of nut cause the hubby and I have been know to stop for porkies in the road..... Hey if they aren't beat up to bad there is porky hair to be had... that stuff is like 50 bucks an ounce... Hubby is tying new roaches right now... one for himself and one for a gift for a friend,s son......

could you imagine a wannabe or a plastic medicine man picking porky hair on the side of the road??
Yes No doubt
1 I have been known to cause a ruckus on the highway to get elk teeth or porky hair! Too funny! You could bring my mom an expensive gift or something really nice & she would still be more excited over a nice porky road kill!
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Old 02-05-2009, 09:36 AM   #155
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Has anyone heard anything about a person named Charlie Clark, and the "Chief Seagull Sundance" held in Delaware?

I could only find this:
Chief SeaGull Sundance: Hey folks

Looks like they're planning on having another Sundance July 5-12, 2009.
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Old 02-05-2009, 05:15 PM   #156
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Has anyone heard anything about a person named Charlie Clark, and the "Chief Seagull Sundance" held in Delaware?

I could only find this:
Chief SeaGull Sundance: Hey folks

Looks like they're planning on having another Sundance July 5-12, 2009.
Nope! Not a clue.
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Old 02-10-2009, 01:10 PM   #157
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Nope! Not a clue.
I do see a lot of whining, though.

If folks don't approve: don't go.

It's, really, that simple.
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Old 02-10-2009, 02:19 PM   #158
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Buck "Ghost Horse" of Unknown origin came to our community a number of years ago. He set up his "sundance" in our area of southern Washington. It was pretty near all white wannabees that were a part of it. His bunch started coming to our Winter ceremonies, complete with thier Pounding sticks. We use pounding sticks and i guess they all wanted to be in the circle and would all show up acting sanctamonious complete with "medicine staffs" and were a joke in the eyes of our native people. I have heard tha Buck Ghost horse is now dead and truly and finally a "ghost"
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Old 02-10-2009, 03:49 PM   #159
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Old 02-11-2009, 10:20 AM   #160
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Zeke - I don't know you, but I agree with your post above..


It is as simple as that : Don't go.



Alright, with that said :


YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO STOP all the people you deem as "false" or "plastic shamans" or whatever you call it.

For natives to tell white people what they can and cannot practice as religion is the same was white people telling us what we can and cannot practice as religion.

Do I think it is silly what they do ? Yes.
Is it insulting ? Alittle... but imitation is the best form of flattery eh ?

Should they come to real ceremony ? Yea.. obviously.

I hear alot of people complain that "They are stealing my religion !"

Your religion ? You own that religion ? You are the sole propreitor of that religion ? You got the copyright?
The "Great Spirit" came down and gave you sole rights over that religion ?

Come on now... really ?

You do know that the sweatlodge existed in like 200+ tribes and ALSO it exist even today in parts of Russia and Siberia..

Nobody can lay claim to the sweatlodge as "their own".

My sweatlodge, being from the Mi'kma'ki is going to be different from out west...

Now... if they are specifically imitation YOUR FORM of the sweatlodge... then you have more ground to stand on...

but not much...

Why ? Unless you are the lineage holder ... your kinda just like a lay follower you know ? It ain't exactly your responsbility or right to go and defend the ritual....

Anyway...

At this point in time, I'm not suggesting that we sit back and do nothing...

But I think a more well thought out plan with a deeper understanding will work better than just screaming

"They are stealing my religion" over and over..


Nobody cares. White people don't care. Most natives are tired of hearing the same old song and dance.

Screaming that tired old line just shows one thing :

That you are very ego-filled.

Yea yea yea... you shut down some white lady's "meditation retreat"... but back on the reserve, we are all still morally and culturally piss-poor and misguided...

Yay... you won NOTHING for the people.

You think that young native selling drugs and listening to hip-hop cares that you stopped a white lady from doing a sweatlodge ?

Young people are tired of hearing about these "cultural victories" ---but not seeing anything change afterwards...

Focus on the REAL issues and stop chasing easy prey.

Put the people first. When the people are healthy, the true spirituality will return.

Yea.. I said it.. the true spirituality..

'cause the biggest frauds of them all are every single native out there who is on a "holy war" against white people but they disregard and turn a blind eye to the actual condition of their homeland and the reserve.

Many of the young people have lost faith in the "old ways" 'cause they don't seem to be helping too much anymore... Not that they don't work... but people seem to be fighting over them more than DOING THEM.

ALso... it seems like they serve more as an Ego/Identity glue rather than an actual spiritual path that really progresses one on a path of intense and serious spiritual growth.

In otherwords... it mostly looks like a big game of EGO.

Blah blah...so you win a few court cases...

What are you saving ? Your actual blood and flesh kin or some ideology ?

The health and clarity of a young mind FAR OUT WEIGHS some ancient religious mumbo-jumbo.

Save our young people and they will bring back the old ways, regardless of what white people are doing.

To the health, confidence, and clarity of all of the People.....

.... and you know I'll fire the first shot.
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