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Old 02-13-2009, 09:41 PM   #161
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I see what you're saying about the sweatlodge being however old blah blah blah. What is most objected to is those that a lot of those people that do run a lodge that are not members of a tribe do so according to some tribes teachings. IE: people running "lakota" ceremonies that aren't Lakota. THAT'S when they object to their religion being stolen.
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Old 02-13-2009, 11:00 PM   #162
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How do the Jewish people feel about the new white movement of wannabe Jews?
...Likewise I wonder how christians would react if someone posed as a priest, had their own made up catholic church and collect the offering every sunday morning for their own pocket?
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Old 02-13-2009, 11:38 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by SuzzeQ4 View Post
How do the Jewish people feel about the new white movement of wannabe Jews?
...Likewise I wonder how christians would react if someone posed as a priest, had their own made up catholic church and collect the offering every sunday morning for their own pocket?
Good questions!

If someone played wannabe priest ot rabbi, to get access to cash from donations, the authorities would stomp on it quick for the crime that it is. But remember it is the white man who is pursueing the fake against the accepted establishment. Our beliefs are not of the accepted establishment so they do nothing.

Money talks, and protecting that money so more can go to the authorities is how it works. The richness of the catholic church and the jewish faith, cause the authorities to persue the matter. To them, WE DON'T COUNT so our problems are overlooked and laughed at. The law in these cases are not applied equally! If the laws were applied equally, we would not be having this discussion.


By the way, there is a book called Judism for Dummies. Maybe that is the bible of the Jewish wannabes.

There is no book called Native American for Dummies so our wannabi have to make it up on their own! But there is a book called Native American History for Dummies so it's easy for the wannabi to learn something of our history as told by the white man.
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Old 02-14-2009, 03:21 PM   #164
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How do the Jewish people feel about the new white movement of wannabe Jews?
...Likewise I wonder how christians would react if someone posed as a priest, had their own made up catholic church and collect the offering every sunday morning for their own pocket?
Exactly! Imagine somebody reading about Judaism in a book then decides they are a rabbi and proceeds to do some circumcisions?
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Old 02-14-2009, 03:28 PM   #165
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Exactly! Imagine somebody reading about Judaism in a book then decides they are a rabbi and proceeds to do some circumcisions?


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Old 02-14-2009, 08:12 PM   #166
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Exactly! Imagine somebody reading about Judaism in a book then decides they are a rabbi and proceeds to do some circumcisions?
OMG...Ok that was my first reaction, but good point, some of our traditions are no less dangerous in the hands of someone untrained.
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Old 02-14-2009, 11:10 PM   #167
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If the people would learn that we need "Two Eyed Seeing" and stop acting like they can hide out on the rez forever---- then maybe people would PROTECT the tradition via the rules of the dominant society..

a.k.a. ---> make established churches and let the lineage holders actually have LEGAL copyright over the rituals etc.etc..

Then the White Law would recognize the "religion" and the "ownership".

Then, every time a plastic shaman started "faking the funk".... *BAM* about a dozen or so UNDENIABLE lawsuits, violations -- and ALOT of time spent in court rooms.

Learn the Rules of Engagement and face your enemy with TACTICS instead of misguided passion.

That is how you squash these fake shamans...

Nobody cares if your feelings are hurt... white people don't care when they hurt eachother's feeling.. why should they care if some indians are sad ?

However.... if your copyright has been violated ... that is a different story altogether.

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Old 02-15-2009, 03:00 PM   #168
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If the people would learn that we need "Two Eyed Seeing" and stop acting like they can hide out on the rez forever---- then maybe people would PROTECT the tradition via the rules of the dominant society...

...However.... if your copyright has been violated ... that is a different story altogether.
I don't know you, but I like how you think.
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Old 02-15-2009, 03:22 PM   #169
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I don't know you, but I like how you think.
we've all been waiting for you to show up and say that
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Old 02-15-2009, 06:37 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by IlnuSoldier View Post
If the people would learn that we need "Two Eyed Seeing" and stop acting like they can hide out on the rez forever---- then maybe people would PROTECT the tradition via the rules of the dominant society..

a.k.a. ---> make established churches and let the lineage holders actually have LEGAL copyright over the rituals etc.etc..

Then the White Law would recognize the "religion" and the "ownership".

Then, every time a plastic shaman started "faking the funk".... *BAM* about a dozen or so UNDENIABLE lawsuits, violations -- and ALOT of time spent in court rooms.

Learn the Rules of Engagement and face your enemy with TACTICS instead of misguided passion.

That is how you squash these fake shamans...

Nobody cares if your feelings are hurt... white people don't care when they hurt eachother's feeling.. why should they care if some indians are sad ?

However.... if your copyright has been violated ... that is a different story altogether.
You sure paint a rosey picture of how it works. How about coming up with the cash to back it up? The chance of conviction is high provided you can prove an exact match of infringment. But at what price? It also does not stop the fake from going out and doing it all over again. It's illegal to tatoo the word "FAKE" on his face. In copyright, the best you usually get is awarded cash. If the fake doesn't have it, and chances are very high he doesn't, he walks away. I'm sure he doesn't care about his credit score too! So what did you gain but a court order there is no way to collect on and a legal fee.

So where do you draw the line of chasing bad money with good that you can not recover????

A copyright infringment is not going to stop the fakes. He can change his M.O. or scream religious freedom per the constitution. The fake can also register as a church and get an internet ministers document for $50.

I've delt with copyright issues for a long time now and know my way around the paperwork. After all, it's part of producing music.

You may want to expand on your idea including the financing to get the job done! Lay out the exact blueprint for us so we can use your idea. Don't worry, you can copyright the idea so no one steals it!
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Old 02-15-2009, 07:30 PM   #171
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You sure paint a rosey picture of how it works. How about coming up with the cash to back it up? The chance of conviction is high provided you can prove an exact match of infringment. But at what price? It also does not stop the fake from going out and doing it all over again. It's illegal to tatoo the word "FAKE" on his face. In copyright, the best you usually get is awarded cash. If the fake doesn't have it, and chances are very high he doesn't, he walks away. I'm sure he doesn't care about his credit score too! So what did you gain but a court order there is no way to collect on and a legal fee.

So where do you draw the line of chasing bad money with good that you can not recover????

A copyright infringment is not going to stop the fakes. He can change his M.O. or scream religious freedom per the constitution. The fake can also register as a church and get an internet ministers document for $50.

I've delt with copyright issues for a long time now and know my way around the paperwork. After all, it's part of producing music.

You may want to expand on your idea including the financing to get the job done! Lay out the exact blueprint for us so we can use your idea. Don't worry, you can copyright the idea so no one steals it!
I agree, in reality it doesn't work so well. Although if it was done, then I'd be legally married cause my husband and I had a traditional wedding that isn't recognized by the canadian government, and we didn't want the white minister their saying "I approve", just seemed demeaning.
Also if we did go the official route how is someone deemed a holy man? Medicine Man school? A degree in sweatlodge, medicines or sundances? Not every Nation traines people in the same way. Or do you just send in an application. It could make things worse.
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Old 02-15-2009, 07:56 PM   #172
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I agree, in reality it doesn't work so well. Although if it was done, then I'd be legally married cause my husband and I had a traditional wedding that isn't recognized by the canadian government, and we didn't want the white minister their saying "I approve", just seemed demeaning.
Also if we did go the official route how is someone deemed a holy man? Medicine Man school? A degree in sweatlodge, medicines or sundances? Not every Nation traines people in the same way. Or do you just send in an application. It could make things worse.
So..... What do you think? Do we chase the fakes with cash we don't have and allow the lawyers get rich or do we go to the hardware store and buy a shovel?

Both are legal but only one is cost effective.
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Old 02-15-2009, 09:12 PM   #173
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So..... What do you think? Do we chase the fakes with cash we don't have and allow the lawyers get rich or do we go to the hardware store and buy a shovel?

Both are legal but only one is cost effective.
I don't know, I just think Ilnu's idea could have to many negative outcomes.
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Old 02-15-2009, 10:17 PM   #174
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I don't know, I just think Ilnu's idea could have to many negative outcomes.
I agree! The NDN population of all tribes would have to join together and establish a common religion. That would mean that tribes would have to give up some beliefs specific to their tribe to establish a common religion. Our tribal system is a group of indivigual people and beliefs that should not be messed with. It would harm our peoples as a whole. The ideaisms would be no different among different tribes. We would lose our right to be indiviguals.

Remember what Blackheart did with the swipe of his hand with pen on paper. A unified religion would be no different and distroy the indivigual rights of the Native people.
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Old 02-15-2009, 11:07 PM   #175
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Yea yea..this is my last post on this thread. This thread is a broken record.

Wow... really?

My idea did not say that ALL TRIBES had to unite to form a single religion...

My idea was that the lineage holders ...or whatever you call them in your tribe ... (i.e. pipe-carriers,etc,etc)...

get together and turn their "followers" into an established group which can utilize the LEGAL protection of the LAW.

For example... say that I ran the "Blue Star Society"... I am the one who holds the bundle and the stories..etc.etc...
I just form a legal entity of the society..

That way... all the material of the society is considered LEGAL properties of "my business"..etc.etc..

My songs are copyright... my designs are patented...etc.etc..

Then..lets some plastic shaman get caught using them without legal permission ...

*BAM* not only do I get their cash, but they get SHUT DOWN and guess what ?

I win. The songs are safe. The designs are kept secret.

The thing is... each society and group HAS TO GET OFF THEIR @SS AND HANDLE THEIR BUSINESS INDIVIDUALLY...

One group CANNOT do it for everybody... because then you would have to make a single "Indian Church" --- and that will not work.

But if everybody makes their own small groups, then every different society can have its own autonomy.

Why ?

BECAUSE THAT IS HOW THE WORLD WORKS NOW.

Deal with it.

It is not the job of the planet to make special circumstance for you... it is YOUR job to keep up with the planet.


START working with your hands
STOP screaming at the sky

In the present day and age--- you have NO PROTECTION of an idea just because you associate yourself with the idea. If you do not play by the rules of the modern day system, then DO NOT expect the system to protect and serve you.

You have the solution.

Fake Shamans are NOT AFRAID OF YOU... but you can make them afraid REAL quick if you start slapping them with lawsuits.

Or... if you are really "down for the cause"... you could pull some old time "convincing" on them...

But--- then YOU'D be on the wrong side of the law


But...if you are just worried that plastic shamans will make you look bad....
if it is just about your ego and how you think white people will view you because of some phony shaman...

... then I have to ask you

WHY DO YOU CARE?

What if the world DOES hate you ?
What if the world DOESN'T understand the "real" way your beliefs actually go ?

Here is the truth :

The world DOES NOT care about Indians.

There are over a thousand "native groups" all over the planet which are mistreated and abused on a daily basis..

.... nobody cares about north american indians.

It is time to stop trying to MAKE people care about us and it IS time for us to start taking care of ourselves.

P.S.

The same reason that YOU are allowed the right to maintain your traditional religion and keep you from HAVING TO BE CHRISTIAN AGAINST YOUR WILL ---

--- is the same reason that the plastic shaman has every right to form their own church.

Thus, you have no right to deny them the right to form and practice in the way they want to...

... but, you can "protect the property of your company".
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Old 02-16-2009, 04:48 AM   #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IlnuSoldier View Post
Wow... really?

My idea did not say that ALL TRIBES had to unite to form a single religion...

My idea was that the lineage holders ...or whatever you call them in your tribe ... (i.e. pipe-carriers,etc,etc)...

get together and turn their "followers" into an established group which can utilize the LEGAL protection of the LAW.

For example... say that I ran the "Blue Star Society"... I am the one who holds the bundle and the stories..etc.etc...
I just form a legal entity of the society..

That way... all the material of the society is considered LEGAL properties of "my business"..etc.etc..

My songs are copyright... my designs are patented...etc.etc..

Then..lets some plastic shaman get caught using them without legal permission ...

*BAM* not only do I get their cash, but they get SHUT DOWN and guess what ?

I win. The songs are safe. The designs are kept secret.

The thing is... each society and group HAS TO GET OFF THEIR @SS AND HANDLE THEIR BUSINESS INDIVIDUALLY...

One group CANNOT do it for everybody... because then you would have to make a single "Indian Church" --- and that will not work.

But if everybody makes their own small groups, then every different society can have its own autonomy.

Why ?

BECAUSE THAT IS HOW THE WORLD WORKS NOW.

Deal with it.

It is not the job of the planet to make special circumstance for you... it is YOUR job to keep up with the planet.


START working with your hands
STOP screaming at the sky

In the present day and age--- you have NO PROTECTION of an idea just because you associate yourself with the idea. If you do not play by the rules of the modern day system, then DO NOT expect the system to protect and serve you.

You have the solution.

Fake Shamans are NOT AFRAID OF YOU... but you can make them afraid REAL quick if you start slapping them with lawsuits.

Or... if you are really "down for the cause"... you could pull some old time "convincing" on them...

But--- then YOU'D be on the wrong side of the law


But...if you are just worried that plastic shamans will make you look bad....
if it is just about your ego and how you think white people will view you because of some phony shaman...

... then I have to ask you

WHY DO YOU CARE?

What if the world DOES hate you ?
What if the world DOESN'T understand the "real" way your beliefs actually go ?

Here is the truth :

The world DOES NOT care about Indians.

There are over a thousand "native groups" all over the planet which are mistreated and abused on a daily basis..

.... nobody cares about north american indians.

It is time to stop trying to MAKE people care about us and it IS time for us to start taking care of ourselves.

P.S.

The same reason that YOU are allowed the right to maintain your traditional religion and keep you from HAVING TO BE CHRISTIAN AGAINST YOUR WILL ---

--- is the same reason that the plastic shaman has every right to form their own church.

Thus, you have no right to deny them the right to form and practice in the way they want to...

... but, you can "protect the property of your company".
You ever notice how all your answers migrate to the way white people would do it. Sounds like you like the white way alot!
__________________


Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


"When I was young man I did some dumb things and the elders would talk to me. Sometimes I listened. Time went by and as I looked around...I was the elder".

Mr. Rossie Freeman
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Old 02-16-2009, 06:29 AM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IlnuSoldier View Post
Wow... really?

My idea did not say that ALL TRIBES had to unite to form a single religion...

My idea was that the lineage holders ...or whatever you call them in your tribe ... (i.e. pipe-carriers,etc,etc)...

get together and turn their "followers" into an established group which can utilize the LEGAL protection of the LAW.

For example... say that I ran the "Blue Star Society"... I am the one who holds the bundle and the stories..etc.etc...
I just form a legal entity of the society..

That way... all the material of the society is considered LEGAL properties of "my business"..etc.etc..

My songs are copyright... my designs are patented...etc.etc..

Then..lets some plastic shaman get caught using them without legal permission ...

*BAM* not only do I get their cash, but they get SHUT DOWN and guess what ?

I win. The songs are safe. The designs are kept secret.

The thing is... each society and group HAS TO GET OFF THEIR @SS AND HANDLE THEIR BUSINESS INDIVIDUALLY...

One group CANNOT do it for everybody... because then you would have to make a single "Indian Church" --- and that will not work.

But if everybody makes their own small groups, then every different society can have its own autonomy.

Why ?

BECAUSE THAT IS HOW THE WORLD WORKS NOW.

Deal with it.

It is not the job of the planet to make special circumstance for you... it is YOUR job to keep up with the planet.


START working with your hands
STOP screaming at the sky

In the present day and age--- you have NO PROTECTION of an idea just because you associate yourself with the idea. If you do not play by the rules of the modern day system, then DO NOT expect the system to protect and serve you.

You have the solution.

Fake Shamans are NOT AFRAID OF YOU... but you can make them afraid REAL quick if you start slapping them with lawsuits.

Or... if you are really "down for the cause"... you could pull some old time "convincing" on them...

But--- then YOU'D be on the wrong side of the law


But...if you are just worried that plastic shamans will make you look bad....
if it is just about your ego and how you think white people will view you because of some phony shaman...

... then I have to ask you

WHY DO YOU CARE?

What if the world DOES hate you ?
What if the world DOESN'T understand the "real" way your beliefs actually go ?

Here is the truth :

The world DOES NOT care about Indians.

There are over a thousand "native groups" all over the planet which are mistreated and abused on a daily basis..

.... nobody cares about north american indians.

It is time to stop trying to MAKE people care about us and it IS time for us to start taking care of ourselves.

P.S.

The same reason that YOU are allowed the right to maintain your traditional religion and keep you from HAVING TO BE CHRISTIAN AGAINST YOUR WILL ---

--- is the same reason that the plastic shaman has every right to form their own church.

Thus, you have no right to deny them the right to form and practice in the way they want to...

... but, you can "protect the property of your company".

Now that's some mighty white thinking you got going on there.

So in your way of thinking, I should forget the shovel. Then get everyone together to pitch in for a backhoe!

It's really getting deep around here!
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Old 02-16-2009, 09:14 AM   #178
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The white way wouldn't keep anything secret. Also it would probably led us down a path of fighting with each other over things like which Nation started what and who has the copyright over it, cause when you play with the pigs, you start to smell like a pig...and we already play with them a little to much already
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Old 02-16-2009, 09:24 AM   #179
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.....

Yea.. well, we didn't drag our feet to adopt horses ..

...or metal...

... or guns....


...or toilets and in-door plumbing..

... or light bulbs...

etc.etc.etc...

But yea...that is fine.... each tribe deserves the right to make their own choices and their own mistakes.
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Old 02-16-2009, 09:38 AM   #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IlnuSoldier View Post
Yea.. well, we didn't drag our feet to adopt horses ..

...or metal...

... or guns....


...or toilets and in-door plumbing..

... or light bulbs...

etc.etc.etc...

But yea...that is fine.... each tribe deserves the right to make their own choices and their own mistakes.
your right, and these benefitted us. But some things we should have dragged our feet on. From the Mom perspective I'll suggest we should have been more hesitant to adopt baby bottles, disposable diapers, (my beloved) Mcdonalds, dependancy on gas etc. You got to look at each thing and say what will the pros and cons be and if you made the wrong choice hope your decendants can fix it.
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