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Old 09-25-2007, 07:39 PM   #1
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Fake tribes vs. "We are too real!!!" tribes

Okay someone asked a question on another thread about some tribes being considered fake b/c they are only state recognized. Those being few and far between.....how do you feel about it? I am happy to say all three of my tribes are Federally recognized. (until someone in the supreme court says other wise *L*)

So let's here it.....if you're state recognized....do you feel you should get the same "status/assisstance" as Federally recognized tribes??? Do those of you who are "Federally" recognized feel that state recognized tribes are half baked and totally fake?

And those who can't claim either.........




we don't care. AYEEEE!!! Just kidding!!!

But seriously...if you ARE a member of a really fake tribe....(no State or Fed. recognition) what are the tribe's plans to prove they really are a tribe that should be recognized????
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Old 09-25-2007, 08:01 PM   #2
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For info, here is a list of State-Recognized Tribes (as of April 2007)

Alabama
Mowa Band of Choctaws
Echota Cherokees
Cherokees of S.E. Alabama
MaChis Lower Alabama Creek Tribe
Star Clan-Muscogee Creek Tribe
Cherokees of N.E. Alabama

Connecticut
Golden Hill Paugussett Tribe
Paucatuck Eastern Pequot Tribe
Schaghticoke Bands

Delaware
Nanticoke Indians

Georgia
Georgia Tribe of Eastern Cherokee
Lower Muscogee Creek Tribe
Cherokee of Georgia Tribal Council

Louisiana
Caddo Indian Tribe
Choctaw-Apache of Ebarb
Clifton Choctaw
Louisiana Choctaw
United Houma Nation

Massachusetts
Hassanamisco

Michigan
Burt Lake Band of Ottawa and Chippewa Indians
Gun Lake Band of Grand River Ottawa Indians
Swan Creek Black River Confederated Ojibwa Tribes
Grand River Band of Ottawa Indians

Missouri
Northern Cherokee
Chickamauga Cherokee

New Jersey
Nanticoke Lenni-Lenape Indians
Powhatan Renape Nation
Ramapough Lenape Indian Nation

New York
Poospatuck
Shinnecock

North Carolina
Coharie
Haliwa-Saponi
Lumbee
Meherrin
Waccamaw-Siouan

South Carolina
Pee Dee Nation
Waccamaw Indian People

Virginia
Eastern Chickahominy
Chickahominy
Mattaponi
Monacan
Nansemond
Pamunkey
Rappahannock
Upper Mattaponi

As you can see, most of the state-recognized tribes are located on the East Coast or in the South. I was surprised to see that some states have no federally-recognized tribes, Virginia for example.

My tribes are both Federally recognized, Chickasaw (enrolled) and Cherokee (EBCI by family history but not documented).

I wish I knew more about some of these state-recognized tribes to make an accurate judgement. I know some that I have read about have made me question their legitimacy - others seem to have been granted state recognition in the face of ridiculously lengthy waits for fully deserved Federal recognition.

Man, this is a really tough question! If there are state-recognized tribes that are legit and just haven't been able to get through the Federal red tape to get recognition, then they deserve equal status as far as benefits go and at a level that the state can afford to support programs for them.

On the other hand, if they are of questionable legitimacy and only got recognized because they knew the right people and greased the right palms, I'd hate to see them taking resources that should be going to legitimate natives.

And if they aren't native at all - shame on the states who gave them recognition!
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Old 09-26-2007, 01:06 AM   #3
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Like North of Ada, I don't know about every state recognized tribe on that list, but I do know that some tribes are legitimate. Some of them have small reservations, often in their original homelands, and are petitioning and waiting for federal recognition. When I did an internship at the RI Indian Council several summers ago, people receiving services from them or employed by/through their services had to be members of state or federally recognized tribes. The issue that some people were talking about "buying memberships in state recognized tribes" sometimes came up, because anyone can put up a website, say they are state/federally/globally :) recognized, and charge money for "membership". Whether or not its legit, is another story, but I think state recognition is a double edged sword. Some tribes are legit, and some aren't. Some states have rigorous standards to recognize tribes, and some state governors sign a proclamation that is in their mind largely symbolic or even apologetic to "more recently formed tribes".

I really like what some people on here (Kiowa Kat comes to mind) have been saying...take the time to research tribes, know what tribes are legit in your area, and try to spread this knowledge. Just relying on state recognition isn't good enough, because that means different things in different states.
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Old 09-26-2007, 02:11 AM   #4
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I have to agree with Eap7.

To say that ALL state recognized tribes are "Fake" just doesn't seem right. I know of a few who have been around and have documents. But then there are the ones who have no documents and they are a State Tribe.

The ones that I wonder about are these 501c3's that publicize on the Inter-net as a "Tribe" with membership fees and all of that. Many of them claim to be decendents of this person or that one, but if you really look into it, it's not accurate.LOL Many of them hear a story and it sounded good to them and then all of a sudden they say that their ancestor was this or their ancestory was that and they give a name, but you can't link that name to the Tribe in which they claim to come from. Now, that's fake. In my opinion.

An example of what I'm saying: say my grandfather was named john doe and he was b. in 1900, then I say that his g-grandfather was james doe born in 1820 of the kiss butt tribe of Oshkash no where. And that James doe is listed but my grandfather ran from the gov. Okay, but where does grandpa tie into James doe? How do we get from point A to point B? There is no connection, just a last name. So now, because my people won't recognize me because I say that I'm related, then I will go out and start my own 501c3 and call it a "Tribe" and go as far as I can with it by charging membership fees and trying to get funding from where ever I can get it. Now, that's a "fake" Tribe.

Just my opinion and I have seen this several times.LOL
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Old 09-27-2007, 11:56 AM   #5
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I would suggest....

People need to..."do their homework" before making a statement.....especially an ignorant one....Their is a big difference between Treaty and non Treaty Tribes....

Candae Princess I suppose if the "Great Father" asked you to jump...you would say how high? Unfortunately too many people are misinformed or not informed...
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Old 09-27-2007, 12:35 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthofAda View Post
For info, here is a list of State-Recognized Tribes (as of April 2007)

Alabama
Mowa Band of Choctaws
Echota Cherokees
Cherokees of S.E. Alabama
MaChis Lower Alabama Creek Tribe
Star Clan-Muscogee Creek Tribe
Cherokees of N.E. Alabama

Connecticut
Golden Hill Paugussett Tribe
Paucatuck Eastern Pequot Tribe
Schaghticoke Bands

Delaware
Nanticoke Indians

Georgia
Georgia Tribe of Eastern Cherokee
Lower Muscogee Creek Tribe
Cherokee of Georgia Tribal Council

Louisiana
Caddo Indian Tribe
Choctaw-Apache of Ebarb
Clifton Choctaw
Louisiana Choctaw
United Houma Nation

Massachusetts
Hassanamisco

Michigan
Burt Lake Band of Ottawa and Chippewa Indians
Gun Lake Band of Grand River Ottawa Indians
Swan Creek Black River Confederated Ojibwa Tribes
Grand River Band of Ottawa Indians

Missouri
Northern Cherokee
Chickamauga Cherokee

New Jersey
Nanticoke Lenni-Lenape Indians
Powhatan Renape Nation
Ramapough Lenape Indian Nation

New York
Poospatuck
Shinnecock

North Carolina
Coharie
Haliwa-Saponi
Lumbee
Meherrin
Waccamaw-Siouan

South Carolina
Pee Dee Nation
Waccamaw Indian People

Virginia
Eastern Chickahominy
Chickahominy
Mattaponi
Monacan
Nansemond
Pamunkey
Rappahannock
Upper Mattaponi

As you can see, most of the state-recognized tribes are located on the East Coast or in the South. I was surprised to see that some states have no federally-recognized tribes, Virginia for example.

My tribes are both Federally recognized, Chickasaw (enrolled) and Cherokee (EBCI by family history but not documented).

I wish I knew more about some of these state-recognized tribes to make an accurate judgement. I know some that I have read about have made me question their legitimacy - others seem to have been granted state recognition in the face of ridiculously lengthy waits for fully deserved Federal recognition.

Man, this is a really tough question! If there are state-recognized tribes that are legit and just haven't been able to get through the Federal red tape to get recognition, then they deserve equal status as far as benefits go and at a level that the state can afford to support programs for them.

On the other hand, if they are of questionable legitimacy and only got recognized because they knew the right people and greased the right palms, I'd hate to see them taking resources that should be going to legitimate natives.

And if they aren't native at all - shame on the states who gave them recognition!

were did you get this info NoA?

if its a .org website, think twice...offical websites that can be helpful would be .gov

CAUSE I know for a fact and will be posting this THERE IS NO STATE or FEDERAL recgnized tribes of Missouri...
thats why I asked .org which people can get and put what they want you to believe....

Last edited by kiowakat; 09-27-2007 at 12:38 PM..
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Old 09-27-2007, 12:47 PM   #7
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Yup

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coyot_In_The_House View Post
People need to..."do their homework" before making a statement.....especially an ignorant one....Their is a big difference between Treaty and non Treaty Tribes....

Candae Princess I suppose if the "Great Father" asked you to jump...you would say how high? Unfortunately too many people are misinformed or not informed...
I have to agree that there is an astounding amount of ignorance regarding these issues. And there is also an equally astounding amount of homework that would need to be done to make an informed statement regarding these issues.
I find it disturbing that people are very quick to label a tribe as fake just because they have never heard of them or because they have state and not federal recognition or even no recognition at all. What is that all about? Why do many of us rush to judgment here without doing our homework? I think this is an important question, a question that if answered honestly could reveal a lot.
I had the opportunity to learn a little bit about a few tribes in California when I lived there. Many California tribes were devastated by the gold rush and just because their numbers are small and they are state recognized doesn't mean they are fake! Be careful in rushing to judgment. It could be our undoing.
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Old 09-27-2007, 12:49 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coyot_In_The_House View Post
People need to..."do their homework" before making a statement.....especially an ignorant one....Their is a big difference between Treaty and non Treaty Tribes....

Candae Princess I suppose if the "Great Father" asked you to jump...you would say how high? Unfortunately too many people are misinformed or not informed...
Okay before calling someone ignorant, check what you type first and make sure it makes grammatical sense........

Other than that, I'm not going to argue with someone about a question I have asked (not an opinion stated...) so go try to start an argument with someone who wants to take the time.
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Old 09-27-2007, 12:54 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowthunders mama View Post
I have to agree that there is an astounding amount of ignorance regarding these issues. And there is also an equally astounding amount of homework that would need to be done to make an informed statement regarding these issues.
I find it disturbing that people are very quick to label a tribe as fake just because they have never heard of them or because they have state and not federal recognition or even no recognition at all. What is that all about? Why do many of us rush to judgment here without doing our homework? I think this is an important question, a question that if answered honestly could reveal a lot.
I had the opportunity to learn a little bit about a few tribes in California when I lived there. Many California tribes were devastated by the gold rush and just because their numbers are small and they are state recognized doesn't mean they are fake! Be careful in rushing to judgment. It could be our undoing.
Well and I guess the reason I used the term fake is b/c that's what most natives at least in my area, refer to them as.....Fake I guess isn't a positive term, but at lot of Federally recognized tribes are frustrated and pretty fed up with tribes coming out of the woodwork every year and they don't even look native. If the trail can be followed to way back in the day, there shouldnt' be a problem. I guess when someone isn't having to deal with the problem directly, they're not going to take the issue as passionately. That's what the point of the thread is...to find out more about it. If I acted like a know it all I would've just made a "tribes not federally recognized aren't worth jack..."

But come on....YOU ALL KNOW websites that are totally bunked tribes.
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Old 09-27-2007, 01:05 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiowakat View Post
were did you get this info NoA?

if its a .org website, think twice...offical websites that can be helpful would be .gov

CAUSE I know for a fact and will be posting this THERE IS NO STATE or FEDERAL recgnized tribes of Missouri...
thats why I asked .org which people can get and put what they want you to believe....
This was from the following link...

State-Tribal Relations: Indian Tribe States

The organization is the National Conference of State Legislatures.

As an additional note, when trying to find a ".gov" site with state-recognized tribes listed, the Center For Disease Control also mentions referring to that same NCLS link. The Environmental Protection Agency, on the other hand, in a report mentions their inability to compile such a list as "we found a lack of consistency in the ways in which States maintain such information."

So...maybe there isn't an authentic list after all - sorry for any confusion...

Thanks for keeping me honest, KK!

Last edited by NorthofAda; 09-27-2007 at 01:14 PM.. Reason: Added some stuff.
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Old 09-27-2007, 01:47 PM   #11
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thank you for starting the post

Quote:
Originally Posted by CandaePrincess View Post
Well and I guess the reason I used the term fake is b/c that's what most natives at least in my area, refer to them as.....Fake I guess isn't a positive term, but at lot of Federally recognized tribes are frustrated and pretty fed up with tribes coming out of the woodwork every year and they don't even look native. If the trail can be followed to way back in the day, there shouldnt' be a problem. I guess when someone isn't having to deal with the problem directly, they're not going to take the issue as passionately. That's what the point of the thread is...to find out more about it. If I acted like a know it all I would've just made a "tribes not federally recognized aren't worth jack..."

But come on....YOU ALL KNOW websites that are totally bunked tribes.
CandeaPrincess, I do thank you for starting the thread because there really does need to be more information shared here. Judging from your past posts, you are a well informed and smart person and generally do not make a lot of blanket statements. You also do not come off as a know it all.
I also think that the issue of "fake" tribes has been blown way out of proportion and it hurts legit tribes and non-treaty tribes. So I agree with Coyote that people do need to do their homework. I do not agree with attacking people personally in posts so I am sorry if my agreement with Coyote came off as an attack againt you because that was my intention.
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Old 09-27-2007, 01:55 PM   #12
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there are many tribes that were legit that were victims of termination policies...some of them have been re-recognized but theres also alot that havent...the Samish Nation in WA state was left of a BIA list by accident in the 1960s and just got it back in the last 2 years...the fake tribes are usually pretty easy to spot tho,tribes like "the cherokee nation of idaho" or the "sioux nation of hawaii"
i wonder where all these tribes that do claim they are legit were (along with all the fakes and wannabees)20 years ago before the casinos came into the scene and it was "cool" to be ndn...money does seem to be the motivating factor for tribal and individual recognition these days...
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Old 09-27-2007, 01:56 PM   #13
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Well, a problem many run into when trying to do "their homework" is that a lot of these groups are very defensive about their identity and look at any question about their history and heritage as an attack.

That said, I have no idea if the Cherokee groups listed are real or fake. I do know that the Cherokee Nation (OK) and the Eastern Band of Cherokee Indians have signed a joint resolution stating they do not approve of the state recognition of tribes and, in particular, do not approve of, recognize as peers, or endorse any other Cherokee tribe besides the United Keetoowah Band which is the third federally recognized Cherokee tribe.

I do find it interesting that a tribe can go from being "fake" one week to real the next with the stroke of a beauracratic pen.
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Old 09-27-2007, 02:17 PM   #14
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I have to agree with the above statement.

If they have been around and have documentation, that's what it really is. What I mean by documentation isn't just a piece of paper, but that you can look them up in the records of Indian Affairs records through the NARA. I might be asking for an aweful lot here, but that's what I look for and I have a list of the NARA Indian affairs records that I am always looking through, or try to when something comes up.

I have had no less then 3 experiences in the past couple of years where someone comes up to me and says that they are a member of this "Secret Cherokee Tribe" or that "Cherokee" tribe and I was with a friend of mine who is from NC and she about flipped. If they were a secret--they're not anymore.LOL

Then I was asked, by a friend, to look into another one and see what was what because a friend of hers was getting into it and was saying some really outrageous claims about many things. So I looked them up, went digging and then made a few phone calls to those who know more then I do. This person was out on the internet claiming that he was recognized by the OK Cherokee's and Elders.

I do try not to just jump (but being human--I do, sometimes, forget myself too). But there are many that I haven't heard about and I can't say that they are fake at all. That's why I try to look into them first. With 500+ federally recognized tribes, I sure don't know them all and 300+ State Recognized tribes. That's alot right there and then other's pop up and well the rest is history, basically.

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Old 09-27-2007, 02:21 PM   #15
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CandeaPrincess, I do thank you for starting the thread because there really does need to be more information shared here. Judging from your past posts, you are a well informed and smart person and generally do not make a lot of blanket statements. You also do not come off as a know it all.
I also think that the issue of "fake" tribes has been blown way out of proportion and it hurts legit tribes and non-treaty tribes. So I agree with Coyote that people do need to do their homework. I do not agree with attacking people personally in posts so I am sorry if my agreement with Coyote came off as an attack againt you because that was my intention.
No! I didn't take offense to what you posted. I appreciate actual discussion. I just don't like negative remarks. We can all voice opinions without making personal attacks and being silly.

I will have to agree with Wojapi....I can't remember but one group paid the gov't and became a tribe.....WTF????

I liked skillet's reply as well...I have a bumper sticker that says "I was Indian before being Indian was cool". I think those who feel that way know what it's like to hear about tribes coming out of the woodwork that we've never heard of!!!
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Old 09-27-2007, 05:11 PM   #16
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I think it's a tough question to answer, honestely. There are lots of ifs and buts. One the one hand there are many frauds who claim ndn roots but have none and there are many who do have roots and embrace them. It IS hard to tell the difference, it is true. Next thing is, tribes were started in the past by members of such and such band joining or seperating from others, going their different ways and so on. Then there are the aforementioned goobers who just decide to want a tribe and say hey lets do this and ask for money. Very hard to seperate. I also do not feel that people need to be told by the government wether or not they are ndn. My family does not need a card to be proud of our heritage. You either are or you aren't. No need to prove anything to anybody. BUT if you were not instructed by elders and taught things like dances and ceremonies you shouldn't run around offering these services like some sort of validation of your ndness. I also think that the mix blood who embraces culture and heritage and passes it on to their children does more good for the tribe as a whole than the fullblood who doesn't care.
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Old 09-27-2007, 06:12 PM   #17
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Lightbulb As Wojapi4me said.....

I do find it interesting that a tribe can go from being "fake" one week to real the next with the stroke of a beauracratic pen.

Just my whole point......The idea that the "justifiers" control those who are justified.....

If anything it boils down to Indian peoples identifying with each other and not another "entity" making that designation....If I can locate it i'll post an article that discusses Treaty and non Treaty tribes....Its interesting.....
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Old 09-27-2007, 06:57 PM   #18
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I do find it interesting that a tribe can go from being "fake" one week to real the next with the stroke of a beauracratic pen.

Just my whole point......The idea that the "justifiers" control those who are justified.....

If anything it boils down to Indian peoples identifying with each other and not another "entity" making that designation....If I can locate it i'll post an article that discusses Treaty and non Treaty tribes....Its interesting.....
Thats the problem. Some indians can't identify with other so-called indians because the so-called indians don't know what they are talking about and don't really have ways based on how they grew up.
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Old 09-28-2007, 09:28 AM   #19
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We were out at Nez Perce this past summer and saw a headstone - no name - and it just said it all

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Old 09-28-2007, 01:09 PM   #20
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Nice. Some people's would say...

Born: Unknown... indian somewhere?
Lived: white, some cherokee, adopted otoe/navajo and lakota
died: apache.


ayeee
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