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Old 09-28-2007, 01:15 PM   #21
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Old 09-28-2007, 01:38 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coyot_In_The_House View Post
I do find it interesting that a tribe can go from being "fake" one week to real the next with the stroke of a beauracratic pen.
Or vice versa.

Which is, of course, the problem when you allow a third party to determine what you are.
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Old 09-28-2007, 02:30 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Or vice versa.

Which is, of course, the problem when you allow a third party to determine what you are.
True, true!! The Delaware Nation of Oklahoma came to mind first thing when I read this. There's no denying those guys are Indians through and through, but right now they are not federally or state-recognized as they lost their federal recognition several years ago because of a dispute with the Cherokee Nation (OK). So, technically, the Delaware aren't Indians. But, I'd challenge anyone here to go to their lands and dance with them and then come back on here and say they aren't Indian people. I have done so and I can tell you they are!!

One thing I will point out though is that I am very curious about their governmental struggles and was able to sit down with some of their tribal members and really discuss their issues. It was extremely interesting. They weren't defensive or anything and we had a great discussion.

Like I said before, some non-recognized tribal members tend to be a little on the defensive side so doing that homework is quite hard. If more were open like the Delawares maybe an intelligent dialogue between people of different tribes could open up more easily.
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Old 09-28-2007, 02:37 PM   #24
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it is easy to get defensive when you encounter predjudice from other ndns about things like tribal status or recognition.
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Old 09-28-2007, 02:40 PM   #25
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I can agree with the above statement (by wojape4me). I know of another Tribe as well whose federal recognition was taken from them, doesn't in anyway make them less Indian and I would fight (and have) many who say that they are not.

But I talk about are the ones who say, for instance, this guy came up to me and told me that his grandfather was a "Cherokee Chief". So I said "Oh, okay. What was his name?" and the guy said "I don't know". Okay, that's a problem and these are many of the ones who go out and start "Tribes" based on that. I know of several of them just like this one. I don't know and can't say about all the ones accross the country, I don't live in every state. I can only talk about the ones that I have dealt with personally and those are the ones that I have a problem with.
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Old 09-28-2007, 02:46 PM   #26
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I think it is a shame that ignorant people make it hard for mix blood people to be accepted for who they are.
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Old 09-28-2007, 03:15 PM   #27
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I think the issue with the Delaware is with their forefathers. The grandfathers and grandmothers decided long ago to have an agreement with the Cherokees. Now the younger generation doesn't like the agreement. So... hence the situation that exists now.
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Old 09-28-2007, 03:26 PM   #28
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My Tribe helped a terminated Tribe regain their Tribal status by testifying on their behalf, lobbying for them etc. Now the reinstated Tribe has a casino and is doing really well, giving out large percapita payments to their members, making big improvements to their land.

My Tribe is rich in land, resources and culture but is getting poorer financially and we've been looking for ways to improve our economy especially for our children and future generations. One way was to build a new casino on our aboriginal lands, fairly close (30 miles) to a large city. Now the Tribe that we so generously assisted, opposes us, and says that if we build a casino it will take away some of their business and take away the life style they they've grown accustomed to. They are now our biggest opponents and run major ads in the newspapers, tv and radio against us. So much for helping out other Tribes.

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Old 09-28-2007, 04:01 PM   #29
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How does one's tribe get their Federal Recognition taken away? I know you can have your Sovereignty status pulled by the gov't for illegal stuff. But how does one lose it's Federal status?
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Old 09-28-2007, 04:21 PM   #30
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It was during the Termination era, 50's 60's, some Tribes Federal Recognition was taken away so those Tribes would become assimilated. I believe it mostly had to do with taking away their lands and resources. Some Tribes were paid for the loss of those resources, land and some weren't. It was a bad time for our NDN people, and my Tribe felt bad for those near to our land base that were terminated. So we fought and helped them to regain their status.
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Old 09-28-2007, 04:36 PM   #31
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what tribe are you?
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Old 09-28-2007, 04:58 PM   #32
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I'm from a "We are too real" federally recognized Treaty Tribe....

I'd rather not say what Tribe I'm from on this board as theres a lot of bad feelings between my Tribe and the other Tribe. I was just adding to the discussion.
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Old 09-28-2007, 05:23 PM   #33
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Lightbulb My entire point Zeke....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Or vice versa.

Which is, of course, the problem when you allow a third party to determine what you are.
Although some folks just don't get it....Obviously you do.....
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Old 09-28-2007, 08:58 PM   #34
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You know to me the ones that are the fakes that only became tribes within the last 30 or 40 years... it does'nt mean to me that there are'nt native people in them or at least that they have any ancestry.. but as a tribe I don't believe.
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Old 10-01-2007, 01:40 PM   #35
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Lightbulb ..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackbear View Post
You know to me the ones that are the fakes that only became tribes within the last 30 or 40 years... it does'nt mean to me that there are'nt native people in them or at least that they have any ancestry.. but as a tribe I don't believe.
A question? What about particular tribes that have struggled with legislation to terminate them? The key word is legislation.....See its tough for me to fall on the yes or no side of this question....Sure its cut and dry as far of some obvious situations, but lets not overlook people who have struggled with blatant attacks againest them.....Try to realize the impact some of your statements or decisions you make....As I said earlier there is a alot of ignorance out there....I'm not dogging folks, just looking at it in a different way...as I always do! Be be leary of the status quo....And realize your words are indeed powerful....

Try to walk off the beaten path.......
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Old 10-01-2007, 02:46 PM   #36
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Here's a good example of something for each of us to (maybe) think about.

Through some looking that I have been doing for some of my family, I found a group of people on the Federal Census records in the 1850's and 1860's and they were listed as "Indian" and all living together as a "Tribe", yet when I have looked to find them--there doesn't seem to be any BIA or Indian Agent records acknowledging them as a "Tribe" at all, does that make them less Indian? See what I'm saying here, they were Indian back in the 1800's are they Indian today?

I feel that they are, but other's may feel differently about them.

My problem is and has always been simply those who make up Tribes---the obvious ones as stated above. The ones who come out of nowhere and then are in an area that was never the territory of that tribe. Now, I know as well as we all do that many Indian people traveled around this country, but one ancestor doesn't make it a whole "tribe". And then they go out and try to recruite. Just my opinion.
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Old 10-01-2007, 03:46 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coyot_In_The_House View Post
A question? What about particular tribes that have struggled with legislation to terminate them? The key word is legislation.....See its tough for me to fall on the yes or no side of this question....Sure its cut and dry as far of some obvious situations, but lets not overlook people who have struggled with blatant attacks againest them.....Try to realize the impact some of your statements or decisions you make....As I said earlier there is a alot of ignorance out there....I'm not dogging folks, just looking at it in a different way...as I always do! Be be leary of the status quo....And realize your words are indeed powerful....

Try to walk off the beaten path.......
Realize first I'm not talking about groups like the lumbee or similar people who've never had federal status but have always remained a tribal entity or had their status removed.

I'm speaking more of splinter groups who break off because they don't like their currant government or status in it. And of groups like the wolf clan cherokee who are made up of people who "feel indian". Also groups like the ones started by that guy who was just recently arrested for granting citizenship to illegal aliens. None of those groups existed before the 60's or 70's and many are motivated by money.

It's one thing to have a community who's always been indian and it's another to have a new community of people who have always heard they had an indian ancestor form a group. I'm not against the latter learning or forming clubs to celebrate an ancestry, but to form a new group based on rumour because suddenly they feel they deserve everything that those that have never hid their identity and remained the people that they are regardless of quantum simply because they may or may not have this one ancestor... is plain ridiculous to me.

I'd rather accept them as someone of /with (possible) indian ancestry without status than someone belonging to a fake tribe. I just have more respect for those that are who they are then trying to convince me of something they are when they have'nt been close to it in generations if at all.

I know that sounds confusing but maybe you understand what I'm saying.
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Old 10-01-2007, 03:58 PM   #38
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I never knew the wolf clan was made up of people who feel indian. I always thought it was part of the 7 clans nothing more nothing less... Please edumacate me....
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Old 10-01-2007, 04:00 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by timmy tiger View Post
Here's a good example of something for each of us to (maybe) think about.

Through some looking that I have been doing for some of my family, I found a group of people on the Federal Census records in the 1850's and 1860's and they were listed as "Indian" and all living together as a "Tribe", yet when I have looked to find them--there doesn't seem to be any BIA or Indian Agent records acknowledging them as a "Tribe" at all, does that make them less Indian? See what I'm saying here, they were Indian back in the 1800's are they Indian today?

I feel that they are, but other's may feel differently about them.

My problem is and has always been simply those who make up Tribes---the obvious ones as stated above. The ones who come out of nowhere and then are in an area that was never the territory of that tribe. Now, I know as well as we all do that many Indian people traveled around this country, but one ancestor doesn't make it a whole "tribe". And then they go out and try to recruite. Just my opinion.

Well first of all, the BIA when it was formed in 1824 was more for dealing with the western tribes although there have been similar groups since the mid 1700's for identifying indian people because of tax reasons. Colonial records will record indian villiages on the east coast but many were considered extinct by time the BIA was formed.

Extinct basically meant they were no longer living as a tribal villiage and were either assimilated, wiped out by disease or war, or they that they simply were absorbed by larger surviving tribal entities. Absorption meant you were no longer of that tribe but now a part of the ones that took you in.

There is a bunch of people now on the southern east coast who want to claim they are from these people who were considered extinct trying to "reform" tribes for varying reasons. But one of the biggest reasons seems to be for an indian identity.

Wow... actually this is a long topic that I've spent the last 3 years researching myself and don't know where to even begin to start so we can save that for another thread LOL!
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Old 10-01-2007, 04:31 PM   #40
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Realize first I'm not talking about groups like the lumbee or similar people who've never had federal status but have always remained a tribal entity or had their status removed.

I'm speaking more of splinter groups who break off because they don't like their currant government or status in it. And of groups like the wolf clan cherokee who are made up of people who "feel indian". Also groups like the ones started by that guy who was just recently arrested for granting citizenship to illegal aliens. None of those groups existed before the 60's or 70's and many are motivated by money.

It's one thing to have a community who's always been indian and it's another to have a new community of people who have always heard they had an indian ancestor form a group. I'm not against the latter learning or forming clubs to celebrate an ancestry, but to form a new group based on rumour because suddenly they feel they deserve everything that those that have never hid their identity and remained the people that they are regardless of quantum simply because they may or may not have this one ancestor... is plain ridiculous to me.

I'd rather accept them as someone of /with (possible) indian ancestry without status than someone belonging to a fake tribe. I just have more respect for those that are who they are then trying to convince me of something they are when they have'nt been close to it in generations if at all.

I know that sounds confusing but maybe you understand what I'm saying.



Now, that's what I can agree with totally. And your other post, I do know what you are saying--but I really don't get into the politics as much as I do the actual people and that's where my thing lies. I have also been doing alot of similar research as you have, but for a little longer, again in a very different way. And then you brought up the one that I had mentioned in another post, that's funny--NOT. I'm not very good at typing what I exactly mean either, but I do know where I stand and you stated it perfectly to me. These are the groups that I have problems with. And there are many of them out there and the list is growing every day.
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