Register Groups Members List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Forum Home - Go Back > General > Native Life > Native Issues Fake tribes vs. "We are too real!!!" tribes Fake tribes vs. "We are too real!!!" tribes

Reply LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 10-02-2007, 04:18 PM   #61
Honey Connoissuer
 
Blackbear's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Blackbear has a reputation beyond repute
Blackbear has a reputation beyond reputeBlackbear has a reputation beyond reputeBlackbear has a reputation beyond reputeBlackbear has a reputation beyond reputeBlackbear has a reputation beyond reputeBlackbear has a reputation beyond reputeBlackbear has a reputation beyond reputeBlackbear has a reputation beyond reputeBlackbear has a reputation beyond reputeBlackbear has a reputation beyond reputeBlackbear has a reputation beyond reputeBlackbear has a reputation beyond reputeBlackbear has a reputation beyond reputeBlackbear has a reputation beyond reputeBlackbear has a reputation beyond reputeBlackbear has a reputation beyond reputeBlackbear has a reputation beyond reputeBlackbear has a reputation beyond reputeBlackbear has a reputation beyond reputeBlackbear has a reputation beyond reputeBlackbear has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Alaska
Posts: 9,817
Credits: 546.23
Savings: 1.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coyot_In_The_House View Post
I understand what your saying.....Although my point is not about obvious bubble gum, potato chip situations....

Ok well that's the only one's I've been talking about..
I don't know of anyone who's banded in the last 30 years who do'nt fit these descriptions... but just because they are'nt recognized does'nt to me mean they are'nt native either..
__________________
Don't worry that it's not good enough for anyone else to hear... just sing, sing a song.
Blackbear is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 10-02-2007, 05:55 PM   #62
Head Dancer
 
timmy tiger's Avatar
 
Items Cake
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
timmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond repute
timmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: where ever there are babies or children you can find me
Posts: 36,934
Blog Entries: 4
Credits: 8,331.92
Savings: 1.00
Let's take the Lenape Nation of Pennsylvania. They are unrecognized by the state or federal government and have used the non-profit model/status to organize themselves. But they damn sure are Indians! They speak their language and have clear documentation of lineage. The PA government has always been anti-Indian. It was being taught as late as the 1990s in PA public schools that all the Indians were killed or pushed out of PA. Penn State University still runs the only assimilation program that I know of in the country called the American Indian Leadership Program. The PA government will never recognize any Indians because they fear having to give back any land that was stolen on the walk. The PA government is also very anti-gambling unless the casino is owned by a white man – then it is cool. And gambling and recognition are intertwined in the fearful PA government’s brains.
So, I think it is dangerous to make blanket statements like non-profit status make them fake or they are fake if they have been recognized in the last 30-40 years. Unless you know every group out there and their unique situation, you just can’t accurately make such a statement. And this brings us right back to the point about recognition that Zeke and Coyote have been making all along.


Okay, you are talking about one specific tribe and one state. Now, I don't get into that tribe. I know some who claim to be of that "Tribe", but I don't think that they are from the same state, I'm really not sure, so I leave that one to others.

Here's a couple of things for you. I don't live in PA, so I don't have the knowledge that you may have about the different tribes. Last year I was approached by two young women, they were nice enough. The one started talking to me about how she's a member of "The Cherokee Tribe of PA" and she took out of her purse and showed me her membership cards (she had two of them) (I don't know why she did that, I never asked to see or know anything about it), her sister didn't have one but then she said to me "I don't have one, but as long as I pay my membership fees I'm a tribal member. So I really don't care if I have one or not." So what is that? I haven't looked into it because I have other things that I'm working on right now. Then earlier this year I was at another event and a young woman came up to me (she was about 30 ish) and said that her grandmother was born on a "Cherokee Reservation" (her exact words) in PA. I about fell over. I told her that I didn't know anything about that. I told her that the only ones that I know of are the ones in NC and OK. So these might be something that you know about.

I'm in the same boat as BB, I only know the ones that are easy to spot, not the more complex ones.

Last edited by timmy tiger; 10-02-2007 at 05:57 PM..
timmy tiger is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 10-02-2007, 06:07 PM   #63
Singer
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
yellowthunders mama has a reputation beyond reputeyellowthunders mama has a reputation beyond reputeyellowthunders mama has a reputation beyond reputeyellowthunders mama has a reputation beyond reputeyellowthunders mama has a reputation beyond reputeyellowthunders mama has a reputation beyond reputeyellowthunders mama has a reputation beyond reputeyellowthunders mama has a reputation beyond reputeyellowthunders mama has a reputation beyond reputeyellowthunders mama has a reputation beyond reputeyellowthunders mama has a reputation beyond reputeyellowthunders mama has a reputation beyond reputeyellowthunders mama has a reputation beyond reputeyellowthunders mama has a reputation beyond reputeyellowthunders mama has a reputation beyond reputeyellowthunders mama has a reputation beyond reputeyellowthunders mama has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 172
Credits: 0.00
Savings: 0.00
interesting stories

TT - interesting stories. There certainly are no recognized tribes in PA and no reservations in PA at all. May I ask what state you live in? You have been approached by more than one of these groups and maybe there are more of them in your state. They seems easy to spot - these tribal membership scams. Thank you for sharing your stories. It may help someone out there who is approached by these people.
yellowthunders mama is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 10-02-2007, 06:13 PM   #64
Head Dancer
 
timmy tiger's Avatar
 
Items Cake
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
timmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond repute
timmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: where ever there are babies or children you can find me
Posts: 36,934
Blog Entries: 4
Credits: 8,331.92
Savings: 1.00
If it is alright with you--I will PM you and tell you what state, I'm in. There are more then I care to go into and yes, there are more then just the ones that I have mentioned here running around claiming all of this. Right now I don't wish to put it out because I will be moving very soon. My family is wanting me to "come home" where they say I belong and that is (hopefully) going to be happening soon.
timmy tiger is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 10-02-2007, 06:35 PM   #65
Happy Beading Woman
 
ac_miss's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
ac_miss has a reputation beyond reputeac_miss has a reputation beyond reputeac_miss has a reputation beyond reputeac_miss has a reputation beyond reputeac_miss has a reputation beyond reputeac_miss has a reputation beyond repute
ac_miss has a reputation beyond reputeac_miss has a reputation beyond reputeac_miss has a reputation beyond reputeac_miss has a reputation beyond reputeac_miss has a reputation beyond reputeac_miss has a reputation beyond reputeac_miss has a reputation beyond reputeac_miss has a reputation beyond reputeac_miss has a reputation beyond reputeac_miss has a reputation beyond reputeac_miss has a reputation beyond reputeac_miss has a reputation beyond reputeac_miss has a reputation beyond reputeac_miss has a reputation beyond reputeac_miss has a reputation beyond reputeac_miss has a reputation beyond reputeac_miss has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Texas
Posts: 3,914
Blog Entries: 3
Credits: 12,333.23
Savings: 1.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by timmy tiger View Post

Here's a couple of things for you. I don't live in PA, so I don't have the knowledge that you may have about the different tribes. Last year I was approached by two young women, they were nice enough. The one started talking to me about how she's a member of "The Cherokee Tribe of PA" and she took out of her purse and showed me her membership cards (she had two of them) (I don't know why she did that, I never asked to see or know anything about it), her sister didn't have one but then she said to me "I don't have one, but as long as I pay my membership fees I'm a tribal member. So I really don't care if I have one or not." So what is that? I haven't looked into it because I have other things that I'm working on right now. Then earlier this year I was at another event and a young woman came up to me (she was about 30 ish) and said that her grandmother was born on a "Cherokee Reservation" (her exact words) in PA. I about fell over. I told her that I didn't know anything about that. I told her that the only ones that I know of are the ones in NC and OK. So these might be something that you know about.
When I worked in the tourist industry, I had several encounters such as this. There were some loopy ones who came through, too. I remember one lady coming in demanding to speak with a shaman. We couldn't think of anything else to tell her, so we said they were not around. She asked, "well if i sit around, do you think they would come out and talk with me?" We told her it was not possible, but she walked right out of the shop. She found a place under some trees, and acted like she was "chanting". It was weird! We didn't know what to think of it. Then we realized she had actually walked from wherever she had come from. She just came out of nowhere. It was just weird.

Also, while working in tourism, we didn't publicize it, but we gave discounts to other natives who could show us their tribal id. We tried our best to determine who looked native, but there were some who threw us for a loop. Then there were the state-recognized members of a tribe who just wanted any handouts. It was crazy! They had pulled out their "tribal" cards, and asked for a discount. To save us all from embarrassment, my manager often gave the discount to them.
__________________
Bead All You Can Bead
ac_miss is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 10-02-2007, 07:37 PM   #66
Head Dancer
 
timmy tiger's Avatar
 
Items Cake
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
timmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond repute
timmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: where ever there are babies or children you can find me
Posts: 36,934
Blog Entries: 4
Credits: 8,331.92
Savings: 1.00
Wow, Ac_Miss, I'd bet we could get together and share stories for days.LOL I'll bet that you have some good ones. Yeah, but they happen all over and that's the sad part. I've been to other states and the same things happen and Josiah has told some major stories on another site as well.
timmy tiger is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-06-2007, 01:14 AM   #67
Tradition is best...
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
BlueWolf64 is an unknown quantity at this point
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Springdale, AR
Posts: 8
Credits: 0.00
Savings: 0.00
Fake or Not

I'm sure there are many fake tribes, but that doesn't mean that their members are necesarily fake indians.

I'm sure a good many of the fake tribe's members are descendants of Cherokees (or whatever tribe) and truly wish to belong.

These same people are unable to belong to one of the federally recognized tribes because they did not have a direct ancestor on the required rolls.

That is the case with me. I have documentation to support my Cherokee heritage. Yet, my ancestors did not get on the Dawes Rolls. Does that make me any less indian than those who did register? I don't think so. I am 1/16th Cherokee, probably more than most members of the actual Cherokee Nation. And what is more, I can prove my heritage!

I am a member of the Echota Cherokee Tribe of Alabama, which is why I decided to post. This is a legitimate, state recognized tribe.

When I became a member, I not only had to provide my ancestry, I had to prove my Cherokee blood and document everything.

This is the case for everyone who becomes a member of our tribe.

However, I do tend to agree that their ARE fake tribes out there. So one should be careful.
BlueWolf64 is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-07-2007, 08:44 PM   #68
Pow Wow Visitor
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
lilred4220 is an unknown quantity at this point
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Citronelle, AL
Posts: 8
Credits: 0.00
Savings: 0.00
I am a Mowa Choctaw who has had a maternial DNA done on I and my children through Familytree DNA and I am Haplogroup A "Native American". I am a Weaver-Reed descendant. Does this answer any questions on the Mowas? Theresa Franks Vann
lilred4220 is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-07-2007, 11:32 PM   #69
Powwow Dude
 
Josiah's Avatar
 
Items DevilUser Name Style ChangeUser Title Style Change
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Josiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond repute
Josiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Center of the Universe: Oklahoma
Posts: 7,097
Blog Entries: 4
Credits: 38,634.63
Savings: 1.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilred4220 View Post
I am a Mowa Choctaw who has had a maternial DNA done on I and my children through Familytree DNA and I am Haplogroup A "Native American". I am a Weaver-Reed descendant. Does this answer any questions on the Mowas? Theresa Franks Vann
I had to look up what a Haplogroup A "Native American" was

Fasinating subject, These Microbioligist are putting forth theories on the origin of Native Americans in the Americas
and seem to have found that 100% of Native Americans can be classified into 5 Catagories

mtDNA Haplogroups:

Haplogroup A is highest in frequency in the Arctic/Subarctic of North America and nearly absent in non-Athapaskan-speaking folk in the Southwest
Haplogroup B is in highest frequency in the Southwest of North America
Haplogroup C is highest in frequency in Eastern North America
Haplogroup D is highest in frequency in populations from Western North America.
Haplogroup X is highest in Algonquian speaking populations of the Great Lakes Region.

I did some more research online and another website:

For example, haplogroup A is high in frequency in Native American populations in the northern region of North America (occupied mainly by Athapaskan and Eskimo/Aleut speakers). It is, however, nearly absent in Native American populations of the Southwest United States (except in the Navaho and Apache, Southern Athapaskan speakers who are relatively recent emigrants from the North), where haplogroup B predominates. In at least some geographic regions this patterning of haplogroup distributions in North America appears to have prehistoric continuity as well. For example, data from ancient populations in the Southwest United States indicate that haplogroup B has been the most common haplogroup in the region at least as early as 3000 ybp (O'Rourke et al. 2000).

Distribution of mitochondrial DNA lineages among Native American tribes of Northeastern North America Human Biology - Find Articles

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJH...499303615Guest

DNA Testing: - mtDNA Haplogroup Testing

Very interesting reading that they can trace this back in time
__________________
ᎠᏂᎩᏚᏩᎩ - Anigiduwagi
Till I Die!
Josiah is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-08-2007, 02:07 AM   #70
Head Dancer
 
timmy tiger's Avatar
 
Items Cake
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
timmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond repute
timmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: where ever there are babies or children you can find me
Posts: 36,934
Blog Entries: 4
Credits: 8,331.92
Savings: 1.00
Thank you Josiah. I too have done alot of research on DNA and that, not for ancestry purposes, but for other reasons. And DNA is NOT 100% accurate in the terms of Ancestry. The only accuracy that the mtDNA is is that it shows if two people come through the same female line, it doesn't eve show if they actually have the same mother, just the same female line. For example two sister's who have the same mother, but different father's, their childrens mtDNA will match 100%, so first, second or even third cousins can match depending on how many daughter's a woman has. As for the ancestry part, there has been more research done on the African and European backgrounds then the Asian and Native American's and the labs themselves will tell you not to totally go by that 100% because there have not been enough tests done to be totally conclusive. I was dealing with a genetic doctor here (not for Ancestry purposes again) and he made it very clear that these tests have some draw backs to them. These tests, also, cannot show you the exact Tribe that your line may come through, just that somewhere you have one.
I have done alot of research on this area and have notes on them and have a good book about HLA's, again more research done on the African and European backgrounds then the Native American.
timmy tiger is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-08-2007, 02:23 AM   #71
The voices tell me...
 
Joe's Dad's Avatar
 
Items CatCatCatCat
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Joe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond repute
Joe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: I'm right here!
Posts: 15,763
Credits: 128,950.44
Savings: 1.00
My mother told me who I was...

but now I wannabe a 'Haplo'!!!
__________________


Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


"When I was young man I did some dumb things and the elders would talk to me. Sometimes I listened. Time went by and as I looked around...I was the elder".

Mr. Rossie Freeman
Joe's Dad is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-08-2007, 02:31 AM   #72
Head Dancer
 
timmy tiger's Avatar
 
Items Cake
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
timmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond repute
timmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: where ever there are babies or children you can find me
Posts: 36,934
Blog Entries: 4
Credits: 8,331.92
Savings: 1.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe's Dad View Post
My mother told me who I was...

but now I wannabe a 'Haplo'!!!
HEY---there's a group now that you can join.LMAO
timmy tiger is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-08-2007, 12:13 PM   #73
Pow Wow Visitor
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
lilred4220 is an unknown quantity at this point
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Citronelle, AL
Posts: 8
Credits: 0.00
Savings: 0.00
Well I guess I'm going to have an autosomal DNA done so it will tell me my percentage of ethnics or is that for some reason not 100% to if you get my drift.
lilred4220 is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-08-2007, 02:31 PM   #74
Head Dancer
 
timmy tiger's Avatar
 
Items Cake
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
timmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond repute
timmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: where ever there are babies or children you can find me
Posts: 36,934
Blog Entries: 4
Credits: 8,331.92
Savings: 1.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by lilred4220 View Post
Well I guess I'm going to have an autosomal DNA done so it will tell me my percentage of ethnics or is that for some reason not 100% to if you get my drift.
Lilred---I'm not sure if I actually get your drift or not. But, no, the autosomal is NOT 100% accurate either. What the autosomal will give you is a basic bare minimum of what you could have. And then there will be a graph that shows what it could also be. It doesn't mean that you are not or don't have any, but it's not 100% either. Again, I have personally been through this---for totally different reasons. I have a friend who is "Full Blood" (there is a point to mentioning this) and one time he was in the hospital for some things and they (the staff or doctors) came to him and said that being that he's "Full Blood" Indian that they wanted to do some tests on his DNA. He said "OKay" and shrugged, he didn't care. When he got his tests back---it showed all kinds of other things there. So, this was not perfect either. Honestly, to really know your ancestory, I still say, genealogy and research is the only real way to find it. Dna--right now is just a guide to help you go in the right direction, but not to totally rely on it. It's expensive and not 100% conclusive. I do know several people who have had their Autosomal DNA done and several are happy with the results, but other's are not at all. But if you are going to have it done--take my advise and go through a Federally accredited lab---otherwise you will be just throwing your money away. And there have been problems with those as well. I know of one person who did it and a few months later they got a letter and a new package stating that there had been Gene's omitted from their original results, but that they had been since found and they were getting those.
timmy tiger is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-09-2007, 03:04 AM   #75
Head Dancer
 
timmy tiger's Avatar
 
Items Cake
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
timmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond repute
timmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: where ever there are babies or children you can find me
Posts: 36,934
Blog Entries: 4
Credits: 8,331.92
Savings: 1.00
Reading materials for you

Don't take my word for it, look at the research yourself and decide. I had to go and find my research and some of it is right off the internet. So I'm putting this out there for anyone who would like to see it for themselves. But before I do, as well, look at the website about the DNA tests and look at where they are saying that the haplogroups are steming from. There is a book out called the "7 Daughter's of Eve" and it supposedly explains about all the different haplogroups and where they stem from and a time reference as well. I don't have that book, and I'm not going to get it, but I did read up on some of it. It was fun reading for me, but I have many doubts about all of what they are saying and the fact that there has NOT been much testing done on Indian people, which I will prove later.

Phylogenetic analysis of mitochondrial DNA: Detction of mutations in patients with occipital stroke chapter 2. Review of the literature.
Http:HErkules.oulu.fi/isbn9514255674/html/x367.html

Full data of geographical distribution from Richards et al. (2000)
Full data of geographical distribution from Richards et al. (2000)

MItochondrial DNA Typing Screens with Control Region an Coding Region SNP's (I Don't have a website for this one, but it is online and this is the study)

Mitochondrial DNA and the peopling of the New World (again, I don't have a website for you, but this is the report)

Interpretation Guidelines for Mitochondrial DNA sequencing (again a report--I don't have the website)
Written by: Bruce Budowie, Joseph A. Dizinno, and Mark R. Wilson

This should be enough to get you started, I have a few other's that are larger then these. Now, to remember that each person gets their MTDNA from their mother and there are about 16,569 Mtdna genes in each of us. Then going from there this only goes back on your mother's mother's mother's side back to the first woman in your direct line from creation and none of the father's sides or the father's mother's side is included in this. The percentage of how much of this is part of your total DNA---I have seen listed as 1/16-1/32 or even much lower and these reports will tell you that.

Last edited by timmy tiger; 11-16-2007 at 04:33 AM..
timmy tiger is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-09-2007, 04:10 AM   #76
Head Dancer
 
timmy tiger's Avatar
 
Items Cake
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
timmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond repute
timmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: where ever there are babies or children you can find me
Posts: 36,934
Blog Entries: 4
Credits: 8,331.92
Savings: 1.00
Autosomal DNA

You asked about Autosomal DNA, here is the best way for me to explain it to you. Each of us have 2,000,000-30,000,000 genes in us that make us who and what we are and how we look and what ailments that we get. No two people are exactly alike and that's where things can sometimes get goofey. HLA's are Human Leukocyte Antigens and they are very complex and there are many of them. Each of us get two of each gene from each of our parents who get two of each gene from each of their parents and on back, again much like the Mtdna. These genes are looked at for many reasons, but a primary reason is in Bone Marrow donating (now, before anyone goes crazy--no--I'm not getting a bone marrow transplant---I'm a donor). So if you look at it and your own siblings, there are many possible differences in these and to give an example of that---a sibling dna test can only tell you a possibility if you and your sibling are actually siblings. It can get to as much as a 1/8 percent and you could still be siblings, but it can tell you for sure if you are not siblings. Now, looking at it that way, an Autosomal DNA test can only give you the probability of where your ancestor may have been, but not a definate. Just an educated guess based on the genes that you happen to get from your parents. Now, this added to finding that person is just an addition, but can be an expensive one.

There needs to be more dna testing on Indian people for them to be able to do that. The reports that I listed above only tell you what populations that they studied and a total number, but many of them do not break it down as to how many in which group. So that is why I went with explaining it through the HLA's because I have the fact book on that and they break it down. The fact book that I am using as a reference here was written by three scientist's in England who studied the HLA's throughout the world, not just one area. But even then, there was very little study done on Indian's.

Here's the break down on this:

"Population Distribution: An average antigen frequency in five major ethnic groups is given, together with the range of frequencies seen in the analysis of 11 Black, 36 Caucasoid, 30 Oriental, 4 Amerindian and 3 Australasian Aboriginal populations studied in the 11th International Histocompatibility Workshop."

Now there is also a place where it says:
Major Ethnic group
Black
Caucasoid
oriental
hispanic
mixed race
pacific islander
american indian
australian aboriginal


So there really has not been all that much research done (in my opinion based on the reports that I have read) to really be conclusive.

This thread was about "Fake Tribes", not people and I don't think that anyone was saying anything like that here. It's each persons opinion as to what they feel is a "Fake Tribe". And most people that I know still believe that even if a Tribe may be considered "Fake" that there still may be people involved who really are decendants of a Tribe, just may not have enough blood quantium for that tribe or may not know exactly where it is.
timmy tiger is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-09-2007, 07:56 AM   #77
Powwow Dude
 
Josiah's Avatar
 
Items DevilUser Name Style ChangeUser Title Style Change
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Josiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond repute
Josiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond reputeJosiah has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Center of the Universe: Oklahoma
Posts: 7,097
Blog Entries: 4
Credits: 38,634.63
Savings: 1.00
So reading through all this material and what I have read about DNA testing
We can draw several conclusions here:

DNA testing can not determine What tribe you belong to, merely that some time in your past the NDN gene is present.

DNA testing can not tell you how much Blood Quantum you have.

DNA testing can not be used to enroll with any tribe in the US.


Any other conclusions??
__________________
ᎠᏂᎩᏚᏩᎩ - Anigiduwagi
Till I Die!
Josiah is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-09-2007, 09:55 AM   #78
Tradition is best...
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
BlueWolf64 is an unknown quantity at this point
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Springdale, AR
Posts: 8
Credits: 0.00
Savings: 0.00
I haven't really researched how effective DNA testing is and what it is all about. I agree that it cannot determine what tribe your ancestor may or may not have belonged to. However, as I understand it, it can point you in the right direction. Also, I read somewhere on the internet that some tribes DO accept DNA testing as a way of proving you have indian blood in your genes. But, it cannot stand alone as sole proof. There must be other proofs to accompany it. I personally knew of my own indian blood by word of mouth. My mother, grandmother, and even great grandmother always said we were Cherokee. But, I didn't just take their word for it. I set out to prove it and I did. I found documents from the past at NARA and was able to prove my heritage. Unfortunately, it is not good enough for any of the federal recognized tribes, who follow the white man's admonition of a direct ancestor being on the Dawes Roll or Baker Roll. So, I was unable to join the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma or the Eastern Band of Cherokees. However, I did not let that stop me from learning about the culture and history. And to this day, I continue to do so.
BlueWolf64 is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-09-2007, 11:47 AM   #79
Pow Wow Visitor
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
lilred4220 is an unknown quantity at this point
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Citronelle, AL
Posts: 8
Credits: 0.00
Savings: 0.00
I understand what you are saying TT, but a lot of these fed tribes relie on blood percent DNA to join ther tribe and documentation. Here is something you don't know about my tribe and alot won't because of the PBCI and the MSC. If you would please email me at [email protected] and I will email you back some documents I have, some information I just got in the past two days. Theresa
lilred4220 is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 11-09-2007, 04:10 PM   #80
Head Dancer
 
timmy tiger's Avatar
 
Items Cake
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
timmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond repute
timmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond reputetimmy tiger has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: where ever there are babies or children you can find me
Posts: 36,934
Blog Entries: 4
Credits: 8,331.92
Savings: 1.00
Josiah, basically you hit it.

All DNA Tests can rule out if you have an Indian ancestor at all, but again---I have heard that this can be incorrect as well.

The Mitochondrial does NOT give a percentage just that you have an ancestor somewhere who was Indian.

The Autosomal DNA test is very different and has a different out come. There are several different Dna tests that can be done on people, not just one and their results are all different.

Autosmal DNA gives you a basic bare minimum possibility, just not an exact.

The HLA's which are also part of our DNA and a seperate test as well, also has different results. Each gene is grouped based on how high of a percenatge of people in what ethnic background carries that particular gene. And that's just an average as well, not an exact.

So far I have not heard of any Tribes accepting DNA for Enrollment, but I have heard mumblings about some possibilities. I had heard of a tribe that had been talking about usuing DNA testing to keep people off the rolls (that was just a rumor), but not the reverse.

Last edited by timmy tiger; 11-16-2007 at 05:01 AM.. Reason: Clarify the different tests
timmy tiger is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Sponsored Links
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

    

Join the online community forum celebrating Native American Culture, Pow Wows, tribes, music, art, and history.

Join PowWows.com Today!

Your Guide to Native American Pow Wows Since 1996

Register For Free

Enjoy the benefits of being a member of PowWows.com!

Join our Native American online community focused on Pow Wow singing, dancing, crafts, Native American music, Native American videos, and more.

Add your Pow Wow to our Calendar

Share your photos and videos

Play games, enter contests, and much more!






New Threads

Pow Wow Calendar Search

 
Month: Year:

Location:
Facebook Profile Images

Videos

Featured Articles

Dance Styles

Crafts

Gallery