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Old 11-09-2007, 05:08 PM   #81
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Cool "sometimes"

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Originally Posted by Coyot_In_The_House View Post
People need to..."do their homework" before making a statement.....especially an ignorant one....Their is a big difference between Treaty and non Treaty Tribes....

Candae Princess I suppose if the "Great Father" asked you to jump...you would say how high? Unfortunately too many people are misinformed or not informed...
.....sometimes there is and sometimes there isn't. For example, the Wind River Reservation in Wyoming is shared by the Eastern Shoshone and the Northern Arapaho. The E. Shoshone is the Treaty tribe. The Feds. relocated the N. Arapaho to the W.R., now they have the same rights and privileges.
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Old 11-13-2007, 04:51 PM   #82
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Yeah it would be nice if people did'nt just simply point out ignorance but would educate as well so the said ignorance in question can be eradicated.
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Old 11-13-2007, 07:05 PM   #83
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Got ya thinking though....

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Originally Posted by Blackbear View Post
Yeah it would be nice if people did'nt just simply point out ignorance but would educate as well so the said ignorance in question can be eradicated.
so we're half way there....
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Old 11-13-2007, 08:02 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Blackbear View Post
Yeah it would be nice if people did'nt just simply point out ignorance but would educate as well so the said ignorance in question can be eradicated.
But, so often, the ignorant just refuse to learn!

That's why I prefer Natural Selection.

It's cleaner.
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Old 11-14-2007, 02:58 PM   #85
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Well why we can't MAKE them learn anything.. by not giving the correct information all we are doing is perpetuating the continuance of ignorance. Maybe the person addressed might not learn anything but someone else reading might. Case in point, I did not know that about the Wind River reservation.

CITH-- I was'nt addressing just you personally... I'm running across alot of this lately with people just telling others how stupid or ignorant they are but not letting them know why .
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Old 11-15-2007, 05:18 PM   #86
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Lightbulb I'm not talking till

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackbear View Post
Well why we can't MAKE them learn anything.. by not giving the correct information all we are doing is perpetuating the continuance of ignorance. Maybe the person addressed might not learn anything but someone else reading might. Case in point, I did not know that about the Wind River reservation.

CITH-- I was'nt addressing just you personally... I'm running across alot of this lately with people just telling others how stupid or ignorant they are but not letting them know why .
I see Tobacco....Geez.....C my "theory" on ignorance is purty deep....Cause some folks are just gonna be ignorant no matter what....So Y bother....A lil Tobacco never hurts though....
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Old 11-15-2007, 05:21 PM   #87
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I see Tobacco....Geez.....C my "theory" on ignorance is purty deep....Cause some folks are just gonna be ignorant no matter what....So Y bother....A lil Tobacco never hurts though....
But some folks wouldn't even know that this was involved in asking the right way...
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Old 11-15-2007, 07:41 PM   #88
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I see Tobacco....Geez.....C my "theory" on ignorance is purty deep....Cause some folks are just gonna be ignorant no matter what....So Y bother....A lil Tobacco never hurts though....


Now will you consider sharing?
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Old 11-16-2007, 06:36 AM   #89
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But some folks wouldn't even know that this was involved in asking the right way...
LOL but it's just a tad hard to offer tobacco in a forum ennit? Unless you do it Mato's way LOL!!!

cute replies guys
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Old 11-16-2007, 06:09 PM   #90
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I am in support of newly recognizing tribes under certain circumstances, such as when one of several tribes once removed from ancestral lands purchases real estate there, and finally petitions to be recognized on their own rather than remain lumped in a government-created confederacy. Such is the case with the Snoqualmie, Sauk-Suiattle, Duwamish and Samish peoples in western Washington. There are also groups of people maintaining their identity although they do not live on the reservations where their ancestors were forced to move and enroll. I would support recognition for people at Rock Creek and Lyle as separate entities IF they ever chose to pursue it, for example. I would consider all of them "real" tribes regardless of the recency of obtaining federal recognition. It's the government's fault, not theirs.
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Old 04-07-2008, 01:35 AM   #91
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Talking Speaking as proud native american

I am new to this site but i was reading some of the posts on federally rec. and state rec. tribes I come from one of the two tribes that is state rec. in south carolina (WIP). First off i would like to say me personally I do not need the state or the federal goverment proving that i am american indian. I know my history of my people and where I come I am a direct descendant of natives and i speak for all of my family we are a proud people and just wish that other natives would embrace us instead of not accepting us because the govt will not say we are natives. I love pow wows i go to as many as possible that is why I joined this site. I hope to learn about other groups of natives and hopefully make new friends.
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Old 04-09-2008, 07:46 PM   #92
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Quote:
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Realize first I'm not talking about groups like the lumbee or similar people who've never had federal status but have always remained a tribal entity or had their status removed.

I'm speaking more of splinter groups who break off because they don't like their currant government or status in it. And of groups like the wolf clan cherokee who are made up of people who "feel indian". Also groups like the ones started by that guy who was just recently arrested for granting citizenship to illegal aliens. None of those groups existed before the 60's or 70's and many are motivated by money.

It's one thing to have a community who's always been indian and it's another to have a new community of people who have always heard they had an indian ancestor form a group. I'm not against the latter learning or forming clubs to celebrate an ancestry, but to form a new group based on rumour because suddenly they feel they deserve everything that those that have never hid their identity and remained the people that they are regardless of quantum simply because they may or may not have this one ancestor... is plain ridiculous to me.

I'd rather accept them as someone of /with (possible) indian ancestry without status than someone belonging to a fake tribe. I just have more respect for those that are who they are then trying to convince me of something they are when they have'nt been close to it in generations if at all.

I know that sounds confusing but maybe you understand what I'm saying.
I understand what you are saying and you are right. I agree. It's sad to listen to people who want to be ndn so they can start a casino. I know a guy that worked at Foxwood and he left and came south to our community about 10 years ago. He brought a video tape with him about Foxwood and he tried to talk the local residents into turning their farms over to the government so that the community can become a reservation and have a casino. I kid you not! I don't even know if a community can turn their land over to the government so that they can become a reservation. Can such a thing happen? I'm sure the government would gladly accept the property, however!

The people of the community almost tared and feathered him and ran him out on a rail. Plus they don't like outsiders anyway! This guy has Ancestor that were born and raised in the community many years ago but he had never lived there. And the community folks didn't go for it anyway!

Then another woman who lives in the community went behind everyone's back, got a charter, called it a tribe, and named herself chief. The people of the commmity participated for a while but they soon almost tared and feathered her. Now, the people of my community don't want to hear anything about being Indian. But here's the rest of the story:

Then another group of people (husband & wife) that don't even live in the community got a charter, started a tribe, and named the husband chief. The people of the community didn't pay them any attention and still don't even pay them any attention!

Even until this very day, the people of the community don't even want anyone to mention the word "Indian" to them. If they hear it, they run the other way. So I can understand why some of you get ticked off! But it's not fair to call everyone fake because some people have true hearts and a true interest in their Indian heritage and people.
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Old 04-09-2008, 09:05 PM   #93
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Checking Rolls....

Hey, personally I've never checked the Dawes Roll or any roll to see if my Ancestors were listed. However, my cousin checked the Dawes Roll and she found her father's father, Stonewall Holmes on the Dawes Roll. But my cousin said that she is not interested in trying to submit an application to the Cherokee Tribe. She's like me, she just wants to know what First Nation(s) she descended from and she knows that there is the blood of more ndn tribes than the Cherokee running through her veins. I have two sisters and I'm the only one interested in knowing my ndn Ancestors and heritage. My middle sister married a man from India and she relates to his people. My baby sister don't give a hoot one way or the other.
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Old 04-10-2008, 12:05 AM   #94
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Hey, personally I've never checked the Dawes Roll or any roll to see if my Ancestors were listed. However, my cousin checked the Dawes Roll and she found her father's father, Stonewall Holmes on the Dawes Roll. But my cousin said that she is not interested in trying to submit an application to the Cherokee Tribe. She's like me, she just wants to know what First Nation(s) she descended from and she knows that there is the blood of more Ndn tribes than the Cherokee running through her veins. I have two sisters and I'm the only one interested in knowing my Ndn Ancestors and heritage. My middle sister married a man from India and she relates to his people. My baby sister don't give a hoot one way or the other.
Finding a name on the roll is just the very tip of the iceberg.

Ok Dawes Rolls 101
What you actually see online is called an index of the actually roll
Most people just think its a long list of names and that is it
Actually it is way more than that!!!
When you see an name you have to scroll over and get two, very important items, 1st is the roll number and second is called card number. Armed with these two pieces of info you can now begin the journey...
Next you must write NARA for a copy of the census card which is the second number
Here is some info from their website:

Dawes Rolls
More than 95% of the letters received by the Fort Worth Branch of the National Archives relate to the Five Civilized Tribes and most of those pertain to the Cherokee. If you are tracing a Cherokee ancestor, the place to begin is with the Final Rolls of the Five Civilized Tribes (commonly called the Dawes rolls). They contain the names of more than 101,000 people enrolled under an act of Congress of June 27, 1898 (30 Stat. 459) which authorized a Commission to the Five Civilized Tribes (under the chairmanship of Senator Henry L. Dawes) to determine who was eligible for tribal membership and thus entitled to an allotment of land. In 1887 the Federal government embarked on the policy of extinguishing tribal title to land and allotting it to individual Indians so there is generally a similar "final roll" or allotment roll for most tribes. Tracing your ancestry to someone on a "final roll" is usually the key to recognition by the Bureau of Indian Affairs.

The Dawes rolls only include people who were alive during the 1898-1907 enrollment period. The index to the Dawes roll has been reproduced on roll 1 of National Archives Microfilm Publication M1186 and many libraries in Oklahoma have copies of the index printed by the BIA. If you find your ancestor' s name, their Dawes roll number is the key to various other records. Unlike most other "roll numbers", it was used by the BIA as a means of positive identification (thus it is something like a social security number).

Census Cards and Application Jackets
The Dawes roll number will lead you to a "census card" which contains information about other family members who might have been enrolled, references to earlier rolls used to verify eligibility (such as the 1880 Cherokee census), and the names of the enrollee's parents (which will take you one generation farther back, but no farther). The cards were prepared by the Dawes Commission to enable the staff to keep track of the status of enrollment applications and the originals were hauled around Indian Territory in wagons as the staff gathered applications and took testimony. The cards have also been reproduced on M1186.

For each card there is usually an application jacket which contains transcripts of any testimony taken by the Commission, birth and death affidavits, marriage licenses (sometimes), and correspondence between the Commission and the applicants, their attorneys, and tribal officials. These application jackets are microfilmed as M1301. In general, the more controversial the applicant's claim the thicker the jacket. The jackets for many full-bloods whose claim to membership was not disputed by the tribal government usually contain very little genealogical information.


Links: Native American Records

Dawes Rolls
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Old 11-20-2010, 10:39 PM   #95
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Whenever anyone tries to define tribes, it is always murky and difficult, the only reason federally recognized tribes exists is because the federal government has allowed it. Any day this could change, look at the termination policies of the 50's and I know someone already mentioned it but look at the Samish tribe from WA they lost rights because of a freaking typographical error. I am enrolled in a federally recognized tribe that only received recognition around ten years ago. We were involved in treaty negotiations around 150 years ago but we found none of the arrangements suitable for our ppl so we refused to sign and the government gave us land on other reservations but we chose not to go so for a long time the federal government did not want to work with us. Also another tribe to look at is the Wanapaum of WA as well, there are members from that tribe enrolled in Yakima and elsewhere but for the most part they have decidedly stayed out of the business of dealing with the federal government so they are not recognized and yet still live in their traditional homelands leading a traditional way of life. They may not be a 'real' tribe but they're the realest tribe I have ever heard of when it comes to sustaining their culture and way of life. I truly believe there is no one way to define a tribe that is correct. Yes there are many fake ones out there but there are many who also have valid claims. Like others have said you just gotta do some research.
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Old 11-29-2010, 03:46 PM   #96
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sorry if this sounds like a ramble...

Well said. I remember an earlier post saying : "Which is, of course, the problem when you allow a third party to determine what you are."

A tribe is not an easy thing to define and if you try to look it up it varies everywhere. I'm a member of a state recognized tribe. Most of our members could join a federally recognized tribe, but have chosen not to. We want to practice our culture, traditions, etc without having anyone jump down our throats. We don't sell it or try to lure people in like many of the 'new age' things or 'tribes' that show up in the news all the time.

Its sad how many "tribes" aren't there to be a tribe, but just to exist as a source of income (illegally). I've come across several of them and they’re the ones that get people hating all state tribes (and Natives in general, many times). Personally, if one of the first things said is "accepting donations” there’s a problem.

At the same time people have to be careful not to confuse it with something legitamate. For example, we pay the tribe once a year to help fund educational programs, new letters, etc within the tribe. We don't get government funding (and don't want it), so we have to fund ourselves and that's just the most efficient way of maintaining money for needed programs, like education and communication.

All in all, it’s one of the most complicated and confusing things around. I wish there was an easy way of saying your real and your fake, but there isn't. Many out there are real, but don't have written documentation or don't want to deal with all of the federal harassment. There are; however, just as many out there that are just running around with their hands out saying “give me money” and looking confused when told that not every Indian wears a head dress and is named Squanto or Pocahontas.

It’s up to every member of the native community to look at each tribe individually, regardless of status (and without jumping to conclusions based on status), and decide for themselves what a tribe is. After all, since when does anything assigned to us from the government make complete sense and is completely accurate? ;)
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Old 11-29-2010, 04:50 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by Svnoyi Gvtsanoste View Post
I wish there was an easy way of saying your real and your fake, but there isn't.
There is -- not that I agree with it -- but folks just do not desire to hear it.

Why?

Because that indicates that a state/federally recognized "new" tribe would have the same rights as "older" ones that many choose to, wrongly, deify.

Truth? That's just too bad, if you're going to use governmental designators as your case makers.

Just because you're Cherokee, Kiowa, Cheyenne, Ponca, et al...

...doesn't make you ANY better than "Joe's Newly Recognized People of the Sage," if recognition is your entire case.

And, of course, we can't have that.
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