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Old 12-31-2011, 06:11 PM   #181
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@Zeke then wouldn't that allow anyone who has had a Native ancestor 20 generations back who has never lived on a res, settlement or or any Native community with a blood quantum that is non so thin that it on longer exists able to claim they are NDN?

Last edited by pigheaded; 12-31-2011 at 06:16 PM..
 
Old 12-31-2011, 06:19 PM   #182
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I think I should get an award for contributing the best material to this thread.
LOL Its just a matter of time that a Thread will sideTrack to Food

I recieved a smoked salmon from Seattle the other day, I am slowly devouring it
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Old 12-31-2011, 06:23 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by pigheaded View Post
@Zeke then wouldn't that allow anyone who has had a Native ancestor 20 generations back who has never lived on a res, settlement or or any Native community with a blood quantum that is non so thin that it on longer exists able to claim they are NDN?
Yup.

And since, eventually, that's precisely how it's ALL going to be...

It's not as if living on a rez makes you an Indian and, these days, the idea of a specific and independent "Native community" holding fundamental sway upon someone's social development is archaic (as well as inherently limiting). TRUTH: If your kids are aware that there is an Internet, they're already part of a larger world...

Now, folks can kick around the idea of whether that is better or worse but it is merely reality that it is happening.

Tribes who have progressively recognized this have already moved towards lineage and not fractional thresholds of quantum.
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Old 12-31-2011, 06:29 PM   #184
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Old 12-31-2011, 06:35 PM   #185
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But that was the core of this debate. blood ivantun and lineage the two requirements for Cherokee. and with that logic them the next time i'm pulled over in the midwest by the town blown who is still playin cowboys and indian than I came claim that i'm European. which for me is true because i am a half breed. but how about say someone like you. are you cable to claim something you are not just because it might serve to benefit you.
 
Old 12-31-2011, 06:39 PM   #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pigheaded View Post
...and with that logic them the next time i'm pulled over in the midwest by the town blown who is still playin cowboys and indian than I came claim that i'm European....
And you would be 100% accurate.

What's the problem?
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Old 12-31-2011, 07:25 PM   #187
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The problem is I can claim to be the most handsomest charming and the most interesting man in the world. doesn't mean it's true. You can polish a turd and call it a pearl but the fact remains that it is NOT a pearl
 
Old 12-31-2011, 07:42 PM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Yup.

And since, eventually, that's precisely how it's ALL going to be...

It's not as if living on a rez makes you an Indian and, these days, the idea of a specific and independent "Native community" holding fundamental sway upon someone's social development is archaic (as well as inherently limiting). TRUTH: If your kids are aware that there is an Internet, they're already part of a larger world...

Now, folks can kick around the idea of whether that is better or worse but it is merely reality that it is happening.

Tribes who have progressively recognized this have already moved towards lineage and not fractional thresholds of quantum.
I was actually surprised How many tribes have gone to Lineage and not just Quantum.

Alabama-Quassarte Tribal Town
Cherokee Nation
Chickasaw Nation
Choctaw Nation
Citizen Potawatomi Nation
Delaware Tribe of Indians
Eastern Shawnee Tribe
Kaw Nation
Mashantucket Pequo Tribe of Connecticut
Miami Tribe of Oklahoma
Modoc Tribe
Muscogee Creek Nation
Osage Nation
Ottawa Tribe of Oklahoma
Peoria Tribe of Indians
Quapaw Tribe of Oklahoma
Sault Ste. Marie Tribe of Chippewa Indians of Michigan
Seminole Nation
Seneca-Cayuga Tribe of Oklahoma
Shawnee Tribe
Thlopthlocco Tribal Town
Tonkawa Tribe
Wyandotte Nation
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Old 12-31-2011, 07:45 PM   #189
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and the first nations people the Abenaki in and of Vermont and Canada
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Old 12-31-2011, 08:07 PM   #190
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next time you find yourself pulled over in South Sioux City NE let me know how claiming European works for ya.

Last edited by pigheaded; 12-31-2011 at 08:12 PM..
 
Old 12-31-2011, 08:17 PM   #191
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Arrow The TRUTH

Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
I was actually surprised How many tribes have gone to Lineage and not just Quantum.
Not me, it's inevitable for every tribe who desires to survive.

In general (big caveat), those are tribes from the East, are in Oklahoma, were militarily defeated many decades before more western tribes who are -- today -- the quantum Nazis, and represent the likely future for those nations.
  1. The bloodline is going to get weaker.
  2. Old ways will be supplanted by new.
  3. Leadership will have to redefine itself.
  4. Folks will have to evolve or face Natural Selection.
Step One, is confronting fear of change. Step Two, is ditching quantum.

That's why I laugh at people who say things like "Harrumph! This is the way it is with [insert broken English] my people. We will continue our ways. It is as it has always been and always shall be..."

The very second you utter such, you brand yourself as an exceptionally short-sighted and less than intelligent human who lives in a delusional world. (Go see the Gourd Dance thread for such foolishness.)

Why?

Because it's already happened a hundred (or more) times. The same speeches, the same aversion to reality, the same posturing, the same embarrassing rhetoric, the same inevitability... It happened to EACH of the tribes listed in the prior post.

Just because geography dictated a later critical mass for you (colloquial "you," not directing) and yours doesn't make you special, you're just behind the curve in terms of perceiving the handwriting on the wall: not only WILL there be change, you neither control it, can predict it or influence it.

To survive, you'll adapt.

The above folks have started the process.

What's the alternative? To be KiowKat and have grandchildren that can't legally produce "Native made" goods by virtue of her own ludicrously stupid quantum/recognition supporting hand.

How smart does that sound to you?
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Old 12-31-2011, 08:25 PM   #192
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@ Zeke, im glad your words have soften and a lot of what you say makes sense alto she KiowKatis in a fight and it not just what your saying in these post, her giving right is to choose her own battles and when her time is done it might change, but calling what she does as wrong, is more about how you feel in general and really has nothing to do with you or how you see fit to live your life, i think if she not here to answer her critics you should leave her out of your posts
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Old 12-31-2011, 08:43 PM   #193
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Quote:
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i think if she not here to answer her critics you should leave her out of your posts
Why isn't she here, again?

Oh, yeah: inability to answer he critics, going off the emotional deep end, and being booted. This is MY fault? (No.)

Sure, she can choose her own battles. I, in turn, can choose to make her look foolish for engaging. I don't hide who I am or what I believe. Plenty of folks disagree with me.

That's fine.

But leadership -- what KiowaKat aspires to be -- comes with a measure of responsibility in that what you are willing to say in public, you may have to defend in public. This is MY fault? (No.)

I assure you, calling what she does wrong isn't about what I "feel," it's about what I know: she, and those like her, harm Native people, strategically. That doesn't get a pass.

Respectfully, are you upset because she isn't here to (try!) to defend herself or that it is so obvious she doesn't have a defense?

Either way, this isn't my fault. However, if it makes you more comfortable for me express something as an opinion, I shall.

"I don't believe KiowaKat has thought this -- or much else -- through to logical conclusion and cares only about her immediate and overtly capitalist (is that traditionally Native?) needs."

Better?
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Old 12-31-2011, 09:14 PM   #194
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aww you can be sweet too and im glad because im shure not to many of my augments could stand against some of your logic..
i do thank u that you care that this even causes me to try to ask PPl to stop having this woman as their poster child in what not to do.... [ i believe she has her rights and should not be make a point in other ppl causes] a lot of ppl might not even know of her as a fiend or foe
so i cant say to u don't say her name, what if you choose a new term in what you need to state you opinion about the harm you see with out passing on such a powerful tag on a woman that's not here to defend her self or speak out im not going to ask again as she has not ask me to talk for her either sooo
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Old 12-31-2011, 09:51 PM   #195
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Joseph Newman aka Nanamankoi (which means three arrows in the Siouan language) is a descendant of the Saponi, Machapunga, Catawba, Cherokee, Hatteras/Croatoan, and Carib historical Native American tribes. Joseph is also a pre-Newman's Ridge Melungeon descendant. Joseph also descends from Ruebin Newman who is the possible descendant of the Longhunter who Newman's Ridge Tennessee was named after.
Contents

[hide]

1 Early life
2 Adult life
3 References
4 External links


[edit] Early life

Joseph was born in Atlanta, Georgia in 1977, His father's family had moved to Atlanta from Paulding county, Georgia where they had migrated mostly from Eastern North Carolina and South Carolina during the Georgia Land Lottery in the 1830s. While grew up on the same street as Chris Smith of the Hiphop group Kriss Kross. He also spent some of his childhood in the 1980s living across the street from Levi Walker aka Chief Noc-a-Homa of the Atlanta Braves baseball team. During the 1990s-2002 he was an accomplished Graffiti artist of the South Eastern United states which gave him a taste for marketing and advertising. Joseph's middle school math teacher was a Atlanta Hawks Cheerleader, his classmates in high school included Andre 3000 of the Hiphop group Outkast, Kandi Buress of the R and B group Xscape, and Comedian Kennan Thompson. During Joseph's time at Tri-Cities school of performing arts he acquired a more professional take on the performing arts world. Jospeh also had a interest in learning Egyptology and the teachings of the United Creek nation of Moors, Joseph often listened to Nuwaubian speakers, as time went on Joseph studied world cultures, religions, and population migrations which lead to a great interest into the guanches of the Canary islands and the Chachapoya tribe of the Inca nation.

[edit] Adult life

After a arrest for his Graffiti mural art, Joseph decided to seek a professional take like his fellow artist friends such as Ward Jenkins who is a animation Director at Laika house and world known artist Totem2 which lead to Joseph spending a time as part of the Marketing and Graphic design team of In-View systems Marketing and Advertising firm. Joseph also spent a time entering talent shows and dance contests such as coming in 2nd place at a dance contest for the Atlanta radio station Hot 97.5 among other contests. As time went on Joseph became more interested into furthering his own family history after studying the works of Piscataway Chief Turkey Tayac. Joseph as always knowing his family was Native American descendants he wanted to reconnect with his heritage which lead him eve further into wanting to know all there was about where his family came. Soon Joseph was seeking out the other descendants in a attempt to reclaim their Native heritage, consulting with many other established tribes in the Southeastern United States and asking for guidance led to him founding the Manahoac Saponi Mattamuskeet Nation. Joseph Newman is often found comparing notes with many other researchers of the South Eastern Native American communities. Joseph future plans is to release a book on all of his research and to organize events throughout the South East in order to promote how Native American communities often mixed with other races and produced descendants who today look Native, White, and black. Many people see Joseph's visions as a new and fresh approach of promoting people's acceptance of all races and how people look at their own self and the truth about the founding of America.

[edit] References



This article does not cite any references or sources.

ECBN...is this YOUR resume?
I looked that article up on Wikipedia and it says its been deleted because of this:

This page has been deleted. The deletion and move log for the page are provided below for reference.

03:22, 9 September 2010 Kimchi.sg (talk | contribs) deleted "Joseph "Nanmankoi" Newman" ‎ (G3: Vandalism (CSDH))


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_...nkoi%22_Newman



I thought it was a joke or wasn't actually on Wikipedia, but it is or should I say WAS. Who the hell creates their own Wikipedia profile/article about themselves?

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Old 12-31-2011, 09:57 PM   #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Not me, it's inevitable for every tribe who desires to survive.

In general (big caveat), those are tribes from the East, are in Oklahoma, were militarily defeated many decades before more western tribes who are -- today -- the quantum Nazis, and represent the likely future for those nations.
  1. The bloodline is going to get weaker.
  2. Old ways will be supplanted by new.
  3. Leadership will have to redefine itself.
  4. Folks will have to evolve or face Natural Selection.
Step One, is confronting fear of change. Step Two, is ditching quantum.

That's why I laugh at people who say things like "Harrumph! This is the way it is with [insert broken English] my people. We will continue our ways. It is as it has always been and always shall be..."

The very second you utter such, you brand yourself as an exceptionally short-sighted and less than intelligent human who lives in a delusional world. (Go see the Gourd Dance thread for such foolishness.)

Why?

Because it's already happened a hundred (or more) times. The same speeches, the same aversion to reality, the same posturing, the same embarrassing rhetoric, the same inevitability... It happened to EACH of the tribes listed in the prior post.

Just because geography dictated a later critical mass for you (colloquial "you," not directing) and yours doesn't make you special, you're just behind the curve in terms of perceiving the handwriting on the wall: not only WILL there be change, you neither control it, can predict it or influence it.

To survive, you'll adapt.

The above folks have started the process.

What's the alternative? To be KiowKat and have grandchildren that can't legally produce "Native made" goods by virtue of her own ludicrously stupid quantum/recognition supporting hand.

How smart does that sound to you?
In theory Zeke, I agree with you. We did away with BQ according to the plethora of categories in our Indian Act when we signed off on our Self Government agreement. Mind you, the Indian Act had enfranchised folks that would ordinarily have stayed within the BQ rules if; they had not married out, joined the military, went to university or joined the clergy or signed their enfranchisement papers to get off the rez for what ever reason.

After Bill C31, Indian Affairs left it up to the FN to define their membership criteria. Some went with one parent descent, some had two parent (could be from different tribes but had to both be status), some when with BQ of 1/4 and some such as the Six Nations did not make a membership criteria. I think the big difference up here is that our constitution recognizes Metis folks and that's where the ones with long stretching ancestry back to that original FN ancestor come in. Those like my FN, have a membership of both status and nons and finally we have families that were separated by a pen stroke of an Indian Agent put back together again as equal members under the agreement.

*I should add, that it is possible up here to be registered with Indian Affairs and not be a band member because that person while meeting the BQ set out by Indian Afairs does not meet the membership criteria of a particular band... you are simply "at large". I understand one cannot do that in the States. We can also transfer our membership from one band to another -marriage, living near the new band etc) and we can also vote if we live off reserve now.


I think in my most humble opinion is that the one thing that might stop all this bickering in the US is for the recognition of those of mixed blood with marginal BQ/lineage as separate and unique to themselves. Give these folks a place that is different from the descendants of the treaties and reserves being set aside. I do have a caveat though and that is the person must do their genealogical homework and connect the dots to show a direct descendancy from those who they claim. I think being the nephew of the aunt who married the half blood from the Cayugas might be stretching it a bit too far.

Up here the Metis have come to terms with the notion that they share a history and culture with both sides of their family and as such, created a unique and distinct society of their own. Now that they have also been politicized, they are gatekeepers of their own folk now... they watch out for the wannabes as well. (as an aside, I have probably met in my lifetime, a couple of thousand descendants of Louis Riel - they all came out of the wood work once the GOC removed the traitor stigma attached to him and re-christened him a Metis hero. His apparent descendants are the new Cherokee Princess Grandmother folks)

Might be worth a try down stateside...
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Old 12-31-2011, 11:24 PM   #197
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Dig a little deeper into that forum and you find the root of where Historystudent aka ESCN lays claim to being a PhD in genetics, historian and expert... but he started off in an artist world prior to his becoming a DNA expert. http://www.saponitown.com/forum/show...2881#post32881


Read another few pages and you see the roots of this young man's angst when another member asks him to refrain from violating copyright...boy did that reply ring a bell with me...lol...according to him, his in laws are paralegals.

http://www.saponitown.com/forum/show...2891#post32891

His response here was almost to the letter... another fine cut and paste...

And a few more posts and we have his mantra of how a) you aren't suppose to question his research and b) how people attack him...

Sound familiar? http://www.saponitown.com/forum/show...2936#post32936

Then when he is asked to ante up his connections, he gives what appears to be a detailed account of his kin.. but doesn't show how he is connected to them just as he failed to do so here...

http://www.saponitown.com/forum/show...2942#post32942

But the speech on how he is the new blood of the natives and research... was priceless...

http://www.saponitown.com/forum/show...2952#post32952

Then for two full pages he does what he repeated here, posts a massive amount of text that is not sourced or has proper citations. A PhD, student would certainly use one or at least be aware of the many forms of citations. APA, Oxford, Harvard, McGill, ASA, CMOS, MLA to name a few...

Then again, as he has done here when confronted with his shaky research he counters with it making no sense.

http://www.saponitown.com/forum/show...2980#post32980

And that research group he often speaks about? It's a group over on yahoo.com But the real pearl is the CV on his tough guy persona... jail time, fighting, over 60 fights... priceless...

http://www.saponitown.com/forum/show...2990#post32990

Oh, and his connection to the Smithsonian? It's a contact that has helped him with some research... http://www.saponitown.com/forum/show...3004#post33004

Then when asked about a certain wiki page that has long since been deleted..
http://www.saponitown.com/forum/show...3010#post33010

This one should certainly go into NT's thread on "Things that make you go hmmmmm..."


However, the comment that our young warrior is naught but a Collin's wannabe cracked me up... seems this may be where he takes affront at being called a wannabe...

http://www.saponitown.com/forum/show...3028#post33028

But alas the tale of young, artist, marketing expert, Genetics PhD, researcher, champion of the uncarded Indian, historian and all round ideal, new generation, Indian... ends here as he got told off by the owner of the site... for, go figure, not citing material properly and heavens... getting his facts wrong.

He hasn't been back since 2008.

http://www.saponitown.com/forum/show...3029#post33029

ESCN, you truly are a creature that needs pity as you are indeed a soul that is lost. You are trying so hard to find yourself in the bones of people that have long since passed this way that you have forgotten to make your own mark. I feel sorry for you that you have to live in the shadows of ancestors because you do not trust yourself to be who you were born to be.

You really should not get into stuff you did not research more lol

You posted one thread. To that lol. them are all from the same thread. If you researched more you would have seen a large chunk of People on Saponi town decided to refuse posting there anymore as long as Don Collins was allowed to stay on there.

Saponi Town was supposed to had been for saponi descendants and family to pass back and forth information amongst themself. Don collins openly admited he is not a saponi, he "attempted" to prove the people on that message board was his family by taking a DNA test, that test proved he was NOT related to anyone on that message board. Then he got all mad because the DNA results was posted on the DNA site as public information. So his DNA attempt to prove himself to be something he was not went against him.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ction=yresults

There is the DNA results which is public. Don collins aka Dcollins' DNA is "Valentine collins". Listed right above is Bertie county's Bunch family. If you look you shall see his DNA results matched perfect on every marker with the Bunch family. His DNA did NOT match to ANY of the Collins family or anyone else connected to the Saponi families.

I guess you did not research it enough to have actually looked at that part huh? lol


As far as newman's ridge's Native americans go, If you are not from Vardy Collins or Shepard Gibson then you do not fall in the Native American line.

So in all, Don Collins proved his own self to not come from the Saponi families, he also stated many times he was not from the Saponi people. So why should he be on a message board thats for Saponi indian descendants? Next time research a little more.


Now for the Saponi tow site owner.

--I appreciate all the research you've done and listed. I don't know if you're aware of our site, www.saponitown.com. We've been researching the same issues for the past 12 years. We have 2,000 members, mainly un-enrolled Saponi descendants like yourself, who've contributed about 20,000 posts. Oxford University is linking to our site in their "Best of the Web" directory. I've heard most of the original documents you mentioned before, but we don't have them in one concise location.

I've set up a member account for you.

I'd love to see your collection of original source passages linked permanently off the first page.

Linda Carter
http://saponitown.com--


I guess you did not know about that either huh? Thats a personal invite from the Saponi Town's owner to me.


As for Cherosage, She is a good friend of mine as well.

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Old 12-31-2011, 11:34 PM   #198
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I looked that article up on Wikipedia and it says its been deleted because of this:

This page has been deleted. The deletion and move log for the page are provided below for reference.

03:22, 9 September 2010 Kimchi.sg (talk | contribs) deleted "Joseph "Nanmankoi" Newman" ‎ (G3: Vandalism (CSDH))


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_...nkoi%22_Newman



I thought it was a joke or wasn't actually on Wikipedia, but it is or should I say WAS. Who the hell creates their own Wikipedia profile/article about themselves?


People do not make wikipedia pages themself, those are made by various people. Research wikipedia and you shall see that.
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Old 12-31-2011, 11:53 PM   #199
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People do not make wikipedia pages themself, those are made by various people. Research wikipedia and you shall see that.
Oh buh, I already know that vast majority of Wikipedia articles are made by various people or contributors, but the Wikipedia article for that person(Joseph Newman) just sounded funky. Dropping names left and right and going into weird extravagant detail... Like they were/are trying to prove something about themselves or the contributor(s) were/are trying to prove something about Joseph Newman. The article just sounded really entitled or pompous. Why are you defending Joseph Newman? Unless you are Joseph Newman? If so, then please tell me you didn't write your own Wikipedia article about yourself...

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Old 01-01-2012, 12:10 AM   #200
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