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Old 01-02-2012, 01:07 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by Toolbox View Post
Ummm, I thought this thread was supposed to be about the Federal Cherokee stuff that you were so bent on the other week? This has turned into a thread about the Saponi and a few other misc. tribes. I feel like this has turned into the play room of a small child, one second the empty TV box is a racecar, then it's a rocket ship, then it's a house, and then it's a jail for the bank robbing stuffed alligator and his malicious gang of teddy bears....
Josiah posted the Saponi stuff first, he was calling the indians of person county fake and fraud indians. So I informed him of that name they are using today, which is "Sapony". Joe's dad and Timmy brought the Saponi stuff back to this thread after that.
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Old 01-02-2012, 01:12 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by yaahl View Post
Having had a quick peek at the scholarship of this Robert Thomas chap from the points ECSN made about his contributions us Canucks, I didn't really find a heap his material used in any of the Native Journals we produce up here.. I searched back to about 1980. I found one article by him in the Indigenous Portal that we use for FN research run by U of Sask. I understand this fellow died in about 1991. Which would have put him present around Canadian Indian politics after Meech Lake and Bill C31 and before Oka, RCAP and the Charlottetown Accord.

What I did find however, was a site created by his colleagues and friends to amass his collected scholarship. Seems a bit strange that a private group would be doing that rather than the educational institutions where he researched and taught. I also found a few articles about him by folks that have very strong ties with large religious organizations who appeared to have contracted this Thomas fellow to do some "seminars" in northern communities. Had this Thomas fellow lived into the late 90s and beyond, he would have found his old supporters in churches such as the Anglicans, embroiled in the Truth and Reconciliation Commission over the residential schools they operated. It appears that this Thomas' "contributions" to Canada were restricted to a few seminars for some churches up in the NWT. I haven't located any scholarship by him in this regard that is specific to Canada - Just an article by MacKenzie about their trip up north.

In my work with the repatriation of artifacts and ancestor remains, I read a ton of papers by anthropologists, historians and museum staff. I can't say this fellow's work topped my list of readings - up here in Canada at least. That doesn't mean he didn't contribute something in a scholarly manner just that he isn't as well known as ECSN would like us to believe. We have other scholars that are now the "go to" ones now.

Anyway, not sure where this apparent statute of this Thomas fellow is, don't recall seeing it in Trent, Sask, Manitoba, UNBC, UNB or UBC's Native studies departments (or any of the other 30 Dept's across Canada in our fine universities). Don't recall seeing anything like it in any of the law schools either. But I could have missed it if its size and location was not what one would expect - if ECSN could provide a location I'll contact the Dept head/Faculty Dean and ask them for a quick pic of it. I'm kind of wondering why we would put a statute up of an American (no offense to American scholars) when we have so many our our own prolific scholars here to cast in bronze.

I vote that we suggest to ECSN that he might want to loosen up his headband.. it appears to be cutting off the blood flow to his brain... (from http://www.saponitown.com/forum/show...1129#post31129 )
Check this link out you will have to download it:
Its Titled: ROBERT K. THOMAS SOME REFLECTIONS ON HIS CONTRIBUTIONS IN CANADA (2001)

http://works.bepress.com/cgi/viewcon...=robert_thomas
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Old 01-02-2012, 01:13 PM   #343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECSN View Post
Josiah posted the Saponi stuff first, he was calling the indians of person county fake and fraud indians. So I informed him of that name they are using today, which is "Sapony". Joe's dad and Timmy brought the Saponi stuff back to this thread after that.
Whats the Sapony of Person County???

Last edited by Josiah; 01-02-2012 at 01:16 PM..
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Old 01-02-2012, 01:15 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
Actually its about how the Federal Cherokee (All 3) are Oppressing the Non Recognized tribes sticking our nose where it don't belong dissing on elders of these groups and just being mean and ogre like... Its just recently morphed into a discussion about the Saponi
I did a nice side by side comparison about the Southern Cherokee in Oklahoma and the ones in Kentucky
Doing some research on the Lost Cherokee of Arkansas Missouri and I even found a Branch in Jersey apparently we were there also...
Actually cherokee was traveling thru New Jersey. This is proven thru various Court records. they was aquireing passes to travel up to New York to make peace treaties with the Northern tribes in order to move some of their Cherokee people to the more coastal areas of NC and Virginia.

Tribes in North Carolina and Virginia was making alot of trips up to New York in the 1700's.
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Old 01-02-2012, 01:20 PM   #345
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Old 01-02-2012, 01:21 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by ECSN View Post
Josiah posted the Saponi stuff first, he was calling the indians of person county fake and fraud indians. So I informed him of that name they are using today, which is "Sapony". Joe's dad and Timmy brought the Saponi stuff back to this thread after that.

OH no we did not. You might want to go and see the posts again in their correct order. You told Yaahl that you had already told her that the "Saponi tribe of OH" has invited you to become a member of their "Tribe" and I informed you that there are NO state tribes recognized in the state of OH. And then I remembered you were here before and that's when people were asking about you since you seem to be so judgemental of other's, well then you need to re-check before you make accusations that can be verified in the timeline that they actually happened.
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Old 01-02-2012, 01:23 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
LOL

You have a Fan Zeke!!
maybe you could autograph his headband make it "Authentic":
Maybe Zekie can get a matching headband!!! I'm f'ing with you Zeke! You know me better than that.

Personal IMs, eh?
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Old 01-02-2012, 01:25 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by ECSN View Post
Actually cherokee was traveling thru New Jersey. This is proven thru various Court records. they was aquireing passes to travel up to New York to make peace treaties with the Northern tribes in order to move some of their Cherokee people to the more coastal areas of NC and Virginia.

Tribes in North Carolina and Virginia was making alot of trips up to New York in the 1700's.
Passes? Court Documents?
Are you trying to say that Cherokees in the 1700's would go to Courts and get Passes to travel to New Jersey???

Ummm you know that the United States was not Formed till after 1783
So the 80 years prior to that it was a British Colony right?
And during that time we were an Ally of the British Crown

Sooooo....

WE DONT NEED NO STINKIN PASSES!
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Old 01-02-2012, 01:25 PM   #349
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And that's what your whole agenda for being here or on any site. You weren't coming in to debate the Cherokee's--you know nothing about the Cherokee's or the history, that's been proven here over and over again. It was about discrediting them so that you could vindicate (which means approve) yourself as being "All Indian and knowing", which you are NOT. Your knowledge of Cherokee history and facts doesn't even exist and I do have documents here to prove you don't know a thing. Don't need to post them 'cause everyone else already knows as well and I won't give you ammo for the next time you come creeping around to pull this same stunt all over again.
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Old 01-02-2012, 01:25 PM   #350
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Old 01-02-2012, 01:26 PM   #351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECSN View Post
Josiah posted the Saponi stuff first, he was calling the indians of person county fake and fraud indians. So I informed him of that name they are using today, which is "Sapony". Joe's dad and Timmy brought the Saponi stuff back to this thread after that.
I sure did. Now answer the John Jeffries passage that I enlarged and bolded. Or didn't you see it?
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Old 01-02-2012, 01:31 PM   #352
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Personal IMs, eh?
Yeah.

He got all clown threatening when I said "I don't care [about his garbage]."

I didn't realize what a single Oklahoma-to-Missouri Native transplant opinion would do to such a fragile ego.

Truly, I'm just indifferent to most of this stuff, it doesn't change who I am, you know?

But, wow, some people...
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Old 01-02-2012, 01:33 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by ECSN View Post
Actually cherokee was traveling thru New Jersey. This is proven thru various Court records. they was aquireing passes to travel up to New York to make peace treaties with the Northern tribes in order to move some of their Cherokee people to the more coastal areas of NC and Virginia.

Tribes in North Carolina and Virginia was making alot of trips up to New York in the 1700's.
Wait a min!

Dude did you ever read Robert K Thomas?
He actually wrote a History of the Cherokee in his writings he puts the Cherokee in North Carolina 5000 years ago

Sooooo what court would that be??
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Old 01-02-2012, 01:35 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by Toolbox View Post
Now I have scanned through this thread, all 4 pages that I missed being away for the New Years holiday, as I normally do as part of my "beat", like a cop. Again I will say thanks ESCN for attempting to give us some of your sources, but there is still a lot of room for improvement.

One thing I noticed that makes no sense to me what so ever is the mentioning that a member of one tribe has no right to come into a new state and call people out for trying forming tribes that have no recognition. Are you trying to say that someone like @Josiah cannot come into Philly and tell the people who started the "Southeastern Pennsylvania Cherokee Confederation" to stop it, that they have no right to form their own tribe? This of course is separate from whether or not these people have bloodlines or not.

Case in point, in PA there are several instances where people got together and attempted to form a derivative of the Delaware (Lenape) tribe. Barely any of them could prove that they had a drop of Delaware blood and those that did couldn't meet the requirements for enrollment into either the tribe as they exist in Oklahoma or Canada. The federal government and the Delaware from OK have told them to stop and threatened legal action against them if they continue. There are only like 3 people that I know of here that can actually prove their bloodline to the Delaware and one of them moved here from Oklahoma.

If they use the cherokee name then yes. That is two groups using the same name. However messing with people who do not use the Cherokee name is completely different. If two groups are using the same cherokee name then they are claiming same bloodlines at some point, same culture, same heritage, same language, etc. So any groups using the same names have more than enough right to go to the other and ask for proof.

There is a few Cherokee's such as the one in Kentucky who are not federal yet they have some backing as far as documentation.

Robert K Thomas tried to clear that mess up in North Carolina back int he 1970's when he noticed alot of people claiming cherokee in North Carolina so he went and did some heavy research into all the Native descent families there. That was the idea behind Cherokee communties of the south research document.

He did some research into the Newman's ridge people also during that research since "outsiders" kept calling them Cherokee even though the newman's ridge people never claimed to be cherokee.

The Cherokee communties of the south research is very important in understanding the North Carolina native communties, I've seen where several groups in NC do not even want people to know about it for obvious reasons.
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Old 01-02-2012, 01:35 PM   #355
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Yeah.

He got all clown threatening when I said "I don't care [about his garbage]."

I didn't realize what a single Oklahoma-to-Missouri Native transplant opinion would do to such a fragile ego.

Truly, I'm just indifferent to most of this stuff, it doesn't change who I am, you know?

But, wow, some people...
There is no way we would want you to change, Zeke.

You have my respect for your posts on this board.
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Old 01-02-2012, 01:41 PM   #356
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And while we're at it some more...

This is your Robert K. Thomas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_K._Thomas_%28BYU%29

So he came wet of the Mississippi, wasn't even Native...

AND WAS TRYING TO TELL THE EAST COAST TRIBES WHO WAS AND WASN'T INDIAN AND WHAT TRIBE THEY DID OR DIDN'T BELONG TO...

AND YOU WHOLEHEARTEDLY ACCEPT HIS WRITINGS?????

What a freaking contradiction of your beliefs!!!

Were is your credibility?
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Old 01-02-2012, 01:44 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by ECSN View Post
If they use the cherokee name then yes. That is two groups using the same name. However messing with people who do not use the Cherokee name is completely different. If two groups are using the same cherokee name then they are claiming same bloodlines at some point, same culture, same heritage, same language, etc. So any groups using the same names have more than enough right to go to the other and ask for proof.

There is a few Cherokee's such as the one in Kentucky who are not federal yet they have some backing as far as documentation.

Robert K Thomas tried to clear that mess up in North Carolina back int he 1970's when he noticed alot of people claiming cherokee in North Carolina so he went and did some heavy research into all the Native descent families there. That was the idea behind Cherokee communties of the south research document.

He did some research into the Newman's ridge people also during that research since "outsiders" kept calling them Cherokee even though the newman's ridge people never claimed to be cherokee.

The Cherokee communties of the south research is very important in understanding the North Carolina native communties, I've seen where several groups in NC do not even want people to know about it for obvious reasons.
HUH?

Have you even looked at a Federal Census record from the mid 1800's (1850 and up)? There were many who claimed to be Indian, not all claimed Cherokee and it's right on the census that way. And in case you don't know how the census works, I'll fill you in. A person working for the gov in (usually) a volunteer (or in some cases, now, they get paid) goes door to door to the individual's homes and asks them questions and they mark it on a sheet that they have and then put it all together and turn it in when they are done. Many times they didn't ask and the census taker would either just assume or leave it blank, but many times they did as and there are a lot of Indians in NC on the 1850's and on up to the 1900 Federal Census and not all of them claim to be Cherokee. You seem to be buying some of the propaganda that you are reading and not all of it is fact or accurate. You don't have a clue about some of this and it's really showing.
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Old 01-02-2012, 01:49 PM   #358
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Yeah.

He got all clown threatening when I said "I don't care [about his garbage]."

I didn't realize what a single Oklahoma-to-Missouri Native transplant opinion would do to such a fragile ego.

Truly, I'm just indifferent to most of this stuff, it doesn't change who I am, you know?

But, wow, some people...
LMAO

Dang Zeke, you'll never change. We all know that. That would be like me changing, oh NO WAY!!!HAHAHAHAHA Dang I don't think we'd recognize you if you did.LOL
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Old 01-02-2012, 01:49 PM   #359
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Wait a min!

Dude did you ever read Robert K Thomas?
He actually wrote a History of the Cherokee in his writings he puts the Cherokee in North Carolina 5000 years ago

Sooooo what court would that be??
New York and virginia court records of the 1700's.
In the 1700's we had 3 things going on basically, we had the virginia tributories, the North Carolina tributories, then we had the Northern indians which included the likes of the Cayuga which was pretty much headed by New York's government. A peace treaty was signed to make these all within peace with each other, these helped fight against the canada indians and the french. In order for the more southern tribes to travel to New York or really past Maryland they had to have a pass fromt he Virginia governor which would probally been by Spotswood or one of spotswood's people. If you was caught traveling without a pass, then you would be sold into slavery (probally sent to barbadoes island) or killed. You also had to put a stone inside your campfires to inform the people you was from the tributory tribes of that area. Anyway the cherokee (often wrote as cherikee in the court records) was making visits to New York to meet with the Northern tribes and to inform them they wanted peace as well. They also informed the virginia government they wished to move some of their cherokee people to the Roanoke river area and that they was calling the saponi and nottoway, etc their brothers (not blood brothers but showing they was at peace).

Here is just one of the many passages from the Virgina court records.


In the COURT-HOUSE Chamber at Lancaster, June 30, 1744, A. M.
P R E S E N T,
The Honourable the Commissioners of Virginia.
The Deputies of the Six Nations.
Conrad Weiser, Interpreter.

YOU charge as with not acting agreeable to our Peace with the Catawbas, we will repeat to you truly what was done. The Governor of New-York, at Albany, in Behalf of Assaragoa, gave us several Belts of Wampum from the Cherikees and Catawbas, and we agreed to a Peace, if those Nations would send some of their great Men to us to confirm it Face to Face, and that they would trade with us; and desired that they would appoint a Time to meet at Albany for that Purpose, but they never came.

Brother Assaragoa,
WE then desired a Letter might be sent to the Catawbas and Cherikees, to desire them to come and confirm the Peace. It was long before an Answer came; but we met the Cherikees, and confirmed the Peace, and sent some of our People to take care of them, until they returned to their own Country.

Brother Assaragoa,
WE have confirmed the Peace with the Cherikees, but not with the Catawbas. They have been treacherous, and know it; so that the War must continue till one of us is destroyed. This we think proper to tell you, that you may not be troubled at what we do to the Catawbas.
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Old 01-02-2012, 01:53 PM   #360
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Why wont you answer my questions, ecbm?
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