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Old 01-02-2012, 01:58 PM   #361
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Why wont you answer my questions, ecbm?
And are you really comparing eyes, nose and cheekbones to an old photo????

That is soooo Maury Povich!
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Old 01-02-2012, 01:58 PM   #362
Ugh. As. If.
 
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who wants cake? lol
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Old 01-02-2012, 02:03 PM   #363
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I have not seen anything saying the Cherokee established any large groups of their people to stay living in the Northern areas. So it would be quite interesting to see what those Northern people use for their basis for claims to the Cherokee name. From all I seen, their travels up there was for peace meetings and to trade with them. Also these passes was only being given to people in groups of 10 or less, you was not allowed to have a pass if you had more than 10 people traveling with you, if you was caught with more than 10 then your pass would be void. If you actually wanted to go past Maryland to live then you had to meet with the govrnor of New York and get permission, and this would have been recorded in New York's court records. When the saponi and tutelo went to live there, it was well documented, there is even a tutelo park in new york today which we get invite to once a year. I have not seen Cherokee listed as those who went into Canada from New York either. So again would be interesting to see how the Northern tribes who use the cherokee name descend from Cherokee.
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Old 01-02-2012, 02:08 PM   #364
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I have not seen anything saying the Cherokee established any large groups of their people to stay living in the Northern areas. So it would be quite interesting to see what those Northern people use for their basis for claims to the Cherokee name. From all I seen, their travels up there was for peace meetings and to trade with them. Also these passes was only being given to people in groups of 10 or less, you was not allowed to have a pass if you had more than 10 people traveling with you, if you was caught with more than 10 then your pass would be void. If you actually wanted to go past Maryland to live then you had to meet with the govrnor of New York and get permission, and this would have been recorded in New York's court records. When the saponi and tutelo went to live there, it was well documented, there is even a tutelo park in new york today which we get invite to once a year. I have not seen Cherokee listed as those who went into Canada from New York either. So again would be interesting to see how the Northern tribes who use the cherokee name descend from Cherokee.
Yeah they are called fakes and Frauds the Cherokee Task Force has contacted them to Cease and desist
Hell the one group Cherokees of New Jersey showed up to the NMAI and was educating them on Cherokee History!!!
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Old 01-02-2012, 02:11 PM   #365
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Actually I found several papers he wrote back in the 70's and his Thesis paper back in 1961 on Redbird Smith. It appears he was living in Michigan in those days...

Does not appear he was widely published and most of his work was in the 60's and 70's he also wrote some children stories in the 80's under a pseudonym: G.P. Horsefly


http://works.bepress.com/robert_thomas/doctype.html
Thanks Josiah, I saw that site as well. From up this way, he wasn't that well known.
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Old 01-02-2012, 02:14 PM   #366
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I have not seen anything saying the Cherokee established any large groups of their people to stay living in the Northern areas. So it would be quite interesting to see what those Northern people use for their basis for claims to the Cherokee name. From all I seen, their travels up there was for peace meetings and to trade with them. Also these passes was only being given to people in groups of 10 or less, you was not allowed to have a pass if you had more than 10 people traveling with you, if you was caught with more than 10 then your pass would be void. If you actually wanted to go past Maryland to live then you had to meet with the govrnor of New York and get permission, and this would have been recorded in New York's court records. When the saponi and tutelo went to live there, it was well documented, there is even a tutelo park in new york today which we get invite to once a year. I have not seen Cherokee listed as those who went into Canada from New York either. So again would be interesting to see how the Northern tribes who use the cherokee name descend from Cherokee.




You are so funny and this is just unreal. You have turned it back to the Cherokee's now 'cause someone has asked you a question that you don't want to answer. Oh you were all about how Saponi you are and how you are all better and more knowledgeable then those in NC and VA and now someone flat out asks you your connection and you are running. OH by the way you have a major "tell". Do you know what a "tell" is? Well, I'm going to tell you.HAHAHAHA A "tell" is term usually, many times, used when people play poker and it is where a person, not knowingly, will give the cards in their hand away by a look on their face or their reactions. And you have a major tell. When you get called on something or are proven to be not as knowledgeable as you think you are your written words change and your speech pattern changes.

So how about an answer to JD's question?


KEEP GOING JD!!!!!!!
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Old 01-02-2012, 02:18 PM   #367
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So that's 7 yeas now?

Dude, take the headband off... your brain is atrophying from the lack of blood.
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Old 01-02-2012, 02:20 PM   #368
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ECSN keeps ignoring me. I'm not done with her yet.

I have many more questions as she provides answers for my questions.
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Old 01-02-2012, 02:25 PM   #369
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Nah, Toolbox, that was just his rouse to everyone. The thread may have been about that but he has no real nowledge of Cherokee's and he proves that every time he opens his mouth. His real agenda was to come in, blast the Cherokee thread and then make a plea (again, 4 years later) how he's really Saponi but the Actual State Recognized tribes that are in the homelands don't recognize him so he's going to another state and he was using this thread and site to boast it up and make it something that it wasn't. That's what his purpose was really all about and so when it started to come up, yeah we jumped on it.HAHAHAHA Like we did 4 years ago.



Hey, I wanna be a beanie babie.

Those 3 Saponi tribes is NOT in Saponi homeland. Saponi never had ANY homeland in North Carolina. You'll never find any Eastern Siouans listed in the same exact area for more than like 10-30 years except for the Catawba. Eastern Siouans was always migrating. Even Virginia is not their homeland, they was invited to live there from Ohio, Before Ohio they was at Cahokia. Cahokia is the ONLY place that can be called homeland for Eastern Siouans. Halifx and warren county was Tuscarora homeland and is home to their reservation. Person county has never had a Saponi listed there, the indians of person county claim their indian descent thru a school in Person county, this school was for ANY indians and never once is the name Saponi listed for this school nor has the county ever been associated with the name Saponi. the Occaneechi and Eno had a town near Granville, NC next to the Sara/Cheraw. However the Occaneechi abandoned that town and was listed in many other locations after it was abandoned. They even lived on a island with the Saponi in Virginia but that island was destroyed in what was called Bacon's rebeliion (hopefully I spelled the name right). In the 1750's there was Saponi recorded at Granville, NC but they left that area soon after. The families that was listed as living in Granville, NC at the time Saponi was listed as being there was also the same families being tried in court in Virginia as "indians" along side the Saponi indians, so it is clear who them 1750 granville, NC Saponi records was talking about, the number of Saponi listed there also match the same number of the families there that was also in those Saponi indian court records of Virginia.

In the 1970's the same families that was in granville, nc in the 1750's are also the same families being called Saponi in the 1970's. It was not til after the late 1970's that these 3 groups in NC started using the Saponi name, and they had already aquired State recognigtion in NC under different names. They never aquired State recognigtion withthe name Saponi, all they did was get state recognigtion then later changed their name.

The earliest record for the Saponi was by John smith who called them monasukapanough and living at the Saponi burial mound in the Louisa county, NC area. Thomas Jefferson comfirmed this later. The families who moved to Granville, NC in the early 1700's had bee listed as indians in Louisa county, NC. Their surnames are also listed in the Saponi records at fort Christianna.
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Old 01-02-2012, 02:25 PM   #370
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There is no way we would want you to change, Zeke.

You have my respect for your posts on this board.
Thanks, I appreciate it.

What I -- still -- don't understand is why anyone cares this much?

If you know who YOU are, you don't really worry about what anyone ELSE is...
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Old 01-02-2012, 02:26 PM   #371
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Yeah, I'm about to break out my websites and start going through census records and stuff myself and posting it here as well since the door was opened a few years back. That might answer some questions as well. And for those who don't know, when I get into Census records, yeah I can find all kinds of interesting information.HAHAHAHA
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Old 01-02-2012, 02:33 PM   #372
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Those 3 Saponi tribes is NOT in Saponi homeland. Saponi never had ANY homeland in North Carolina. You'll never find any Eastern Siouans listed in the same exact area for more than like 10-30 years except for the Catawba. Eastern Siouans was always migrating. Even Virginia is not their homeland, they was invited to live there from Ohio, Before Ohio they was at Cahokia. Cahokia is the ONLY place that can be called homeland for Eastern Siouans. Halifx and warren county was Tuscarora homeland and is home to their reservation. Person county has never had a Saponi listed there, the indians of person county claim their indian descent thru a school in Person county, this school was for ANY indians and never once is the name Saponi listed for this school nor has the county ever been associated with the name Saponi. the Occaneechi and Eno had a town near Granville, NC next to the Sara/Cheraw. However the Occaneechi abandoned that town and was listed in many other locations after it was abandoned. They even lived on a island with the Saponi in Virginia but that island was destroyed in what was called Bacon's rebeliion (hopefully I spelled the name right). In the 1750's there was Saponi recorded at Granville, NC but they left that area soon after. The families that was listed as living in Granville, NC at the time Saponi was listed as being there was also the same families being tried in court in Virginia as "indians" along side the Saponi indians, so it is clear who them 1750 granville, NC Saponi records was talking about, the number of Saponi listed there also match the same number of the families there that was also in those Saponi indian court records of Virginia.

In the 1970's the same families that was in granville, nc in the 1750's are also the same families being called Saponi in the 1970's. It was not til after the late 1970's that these 3 groups in NC started using the Saponi name, and they had already aquired State recognigtion in NC under different names. They never aquired State recognigtion withthe name Saponi, all they did was get state recognigtion then later changed their name.

The earliest record for the Saponi was by John smith who called them monasukapanough and living at the Saponi burial mound in the Louisa county, NC area. Thomas Jefferson comfirmed this later. The families who moved to Granville, NC in the early 1700's had bee listed as indians in Louisa county, NC. Their surnames are also listed in the Saponi records at fort Christianna.

Wow did you type that right out of a history book? 'Cause that's sure not the way your speech pattern has been going all day, so far.LOL

So it's not their homelands for the last 2,000 years, they've still been in the area for over 200 years and are documented all along in that state and on census records. The ones you claim are the only right ones---AREN'T documented back that far. One person here or one person there--AGAIN DOES NOT MAKE A TRIBE!!!!!
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Old 01-02-2012, 02:39 PM   #373
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ECSN keeps ignoring me. I'm not done with her yet.

I have many more questions as she provides answers for my questions.
I've been waiting for you to actually ask a question, all you did was copy and paste a entire Wikipedia article. Say the question. Posting a entire wikipedia article is not asking a question.


I seen Paul's name in there, Paul is a white guy who married a black lady and is now trying to disprove ALL indian descendants on the entire east coast. If I remember right he one time even tried to say alot of the Eastern band of cherokee was really black people who mixed with whites and had no indian blood lol. He actually omitted ALOT of records. The dude even claims alot of the people who was accepted into the Oklahoma Cherokee was just black people mixed with whites. He even claimed the people living on the Pamunkey reservation in Virginia (oldest reservation I know of) is whites mixed with blacks. The guy will not go into details, and what he does is find a surname associated to a indian community, then look thru records to find that surname listed as black or mulatto and then claim they are the same family and that the entire indian community is just black people lol. That is Paul Heinng sumed up in the nushell.

Now say what your question is.
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Old 01-02-2012, 02:44 PM   #374
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Now say what your question is.
Will you cease embarrassing yourself?
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Old 01-02-2012, 02:47 PM   #375
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That's not gonna happen.

Hey, where's the pie? I'm getting ready.
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Old 01-02-2012, 03:01 PM   #376
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Originally Posted by timmy tiger View Post
Wow did you type that right out of a history book? 'Cause that's sure not the way your speech pattern has been going all day, so far.LOL

So it's not their homelands for the last 2,000 years, they've still been in the area for over 200 years and are documented all along in that state and on census records. The ones you claim are the only right ones---AREN'T documented back that far. One person here or one person there--AGAIN DOES NOT MAKE A TRIBE!!!!!

umm, no they have not been listed there for 200 years. Alot of them only moved to them areas around the 1840-1850's.

And, the ones I claim is documented have been documented much longer than those claiming to be Saponi, and there is a ton more documentation on them. You may want to look at Newman's ridge records. They have been documented as a tribe older than the name of tennesse. The newman's ridge melungeons are ones who moved into Tennesse from the Saponi lands and have been called a tribe since the creation of tennesse to today, and not once have they sought any recognigtion lol.


So timmy without you knowing it, your actually backing these cherokee groups who are using the Cherokee name without being listed once as cherokee. You see, these 3 groups in north carolina, one has used numerous names, even trying to claim they was cherokee. I believe the Occaneechi and Person county idians only called themself Saponi in like the last 12 years or less.

So Timmy, your saying just being indian gives the people a right to use any tribe name they wish huh? Just being indian does not give people the right to pick any tribe name they want to. So since the cherokee was moved out of Georgia, then a indian from new york should be allowed to move to Georgia and claim he cherokee just because he moved onto land that once was recorded as having cherokee live there. There actually is 2 groups who has done this lol This one group in Georgia uses the name Cherokee and is state recognized in Georgia yet their enrollment states you do not have to be cherokee to enroll, all you have to be is indian descent. Thats basically the same exact enrollment those 3 saponi groups in nc use, they say to show indian descent and show your family has been living in those areas (areas that is has been shown the Sapni either never lived there or had moved out of that area back in the mid 1700's).

The Ohio band of Saponi actually tries to work out a middle ground.
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Old 01-02-2012, 03:25 PM   #377
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Will you cease embarrassing yourself?
You mean how you do by making women cry and then go around bragging about it? lol

move along.
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Old 01-02-2012, 03:32 PM   #378
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umm, no they have not been listed there for 200 years. Alot of them only moved to them areas around the 1840-1850's.

And, the ones I claim is documented have been documented much longer than those claiming to be Saponi, and there is a ton more documentation on them. You may want to look at Newman's ridge records. They have been documented as a tribe older than the name of tennesse. The newman's ridge melungeons are ones who moved into Tennesse from the Saponi lands and have been called a tribe since the creation of tennesse to today, and not once have they sought any recognigtion lol.


So timmy without you knowing it, your actually backing these cherokee groups who are using the Cherokee name without being listed once as cherokee. You see, these 3 groups in north carolina, one has used numerous names, even trying to claim they was cherokee. I believe the Occaneechi and Person county idians only called themself Saponi in like the last 12 years or less.

So Timmy, your saying just being indian gives the people a right to use any tribe name they wish huh? Just being indian does not give people the right to pick any tribe name they want to. So since the cherokee was moved out of Georgia, then a indian from new york should be allowed to move to Georgia and claim he cherokee just because he moved onto land that once was recorded as having cherokee live there. There actually is 2 groups who has done this lol This one group in Georgia uses the name Cherokee and is state recognized in Georgia yet their enrollment states you do not have to be cherokee to enroll, all you have to be is indian descent. Thats basically the same exact enrollment those 3 saponi groups in nc use, they say to show indian descent and show your family has been living in those areas (areas that is has been shown the Sapni either never lived there or had moved out of that area back in the mid 1700's).

The Ohio band of Saponi actually tries to work out a middle ground.

HAHAHAHA Okay, do you know what year this is? It just turned 2012. So even giving it as 2011, you are saying that the "Saponi's" went to OH in 1840's-1850's, that's still 171 years, how much close to 200 do you anally want it to be? And they are not on the 1850 federal Census in OH listed as Indian's. And are you aware that there was an Indian Agent that covered the OH territory in the 1800's and his records do not state Saponi, he mentions other tribes, but I have never seen Saponi, I will get out my list and post what the National Archives has on the OH Ndn's back then and you can see it for yourself, but it will take me a little bit to get it all.

And another point of fact that is mentioned in all the records is that Saponi's mixed with former slaves, um you are aware that the former slaves were not set free until after 1865, in most cases. Also, have you seen the OH Saponi's? All of them that I've seen are of the mixed as mentioned above, again not to say that some don't have some back ground, but not all are.

And by their own website, and yes I did read it, and I can comprehend what I read too, they only became a "tribe" in 1998, that's only 13-14 years ago. Geez, where were they before. They sure weren't hiding or in fear of being removed then. No, they found out the some considered it "cool" to be Indian and the Casino's came out and they wanted to get some of that "free" money that doesn't really exist other then in jealous people's small minds.

Don't be foolish or childish enough to try to put words in my mouth, I'll puke them back on you if you do!!!! I never said anyone could use any name they wish. But you are trying to discredit a group simple 'cause they won't let you play with them. That's your problem. The OH group is NOT State Recognized and so they are NOT a "Tribe", just a club. And you know I have to agree with Zeke about why you are trying to fight it so hard, they can't get Federally recognized anyway 'cause of the Federal law of Blood Quantum having to be 1/4 to be considered Tribal and recognized by the Federal Gov and the BIA. So you get NOTHING out of it either way and all your boasting of being better or more then another is just you on a major ego trip trying to prove something, um only to yourself.

Okay, so what's your problem with the GA tribe? Oh wait, they rejected you too, didn't they.LOL I'm not a part of or descended through them, so I don't have to bother with that at all and they are recognized by the state they reside in, anything further goes federal. That's why you have to go to another State.LOL But the one you are claiming isn't even recognized in the state that they now live and weren't together as a tribe prior to (by the way that means before) 1998. So it's all a bunch of smoke and mirrors.
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Old 01-02-2012, 03:35 PM   #379
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1830 INDIAN REMOVAL

The Indian Removal Act became law. This law made it legal to remove Native Americans from their land in the southeast. Indians were rounded up by soldiers and forced to march long distances to reservations. Many Indians died on these journeys.

Because of the Indian Removal Act, many Native Americans began to refer to themselves as "colored" or "mulatto" to avoid removal. Therefore, the former Saponi were forced to take English names. The descendents of the Ohio River Valley Sioux are now called Blackfoot Band of the Saponi Nation of Ohio, Inc.

Can we insert 'white' and 'Cherokee' here and go read about the Kentucky group and the white Ohio group and the Pennsylvania group, blah, blah, blah.

Blackfoot Band?

Point made. Case closed.

The Saponi have not had their native names since 1720, long before the removal acts, The Saponi never was included in the Removal acts due to them having already signed their lands away in Virginia and having entered the indian boarding schools in the early 1700's. After the 1720's all the saponi children and most of the adults had taken english names due to their christaning. This was done by Lt.gov spotswood at fort Christianna. Some of this was done at the William and Mary school also.

Last edited by ECSN; 01-02-2012 at 03:38 PM..
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Old 01-02-2012, 03:49 PM   #380
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The Saponi have not had their native names since 1720, long before the removal acts, The Saponi never was included in the Removal acts due to them having already signed their lands away in Virginia and having entered the Indian boarding schools in the early 1700's. After the 1720's all the Saponi children and most of the adults had taken English names due to their christening. This was done by Lt.gov spotswood at fort Christiana. Some of this was done at the William and Mary school also.
So they assimilated and ceased to be a tribe, the individuals became a part of the society around them intermarried and became citizens of the State they lived in?
And then Several Centuries Later they are resurrected with all the language and culture intact ready to became a tribe???
You mean that way?

That is not a Tribe! That is a Heritage Group at best a Group that meets and discusses 300 year old culture.
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