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Old 01-02-2012, 04:12 PM   #381
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Criteria For Federal Recognition

(a) The petitioner has been identified as an American Indian entity on a substantially continuous basis since 1900. Evidence that the group's character as an Indian entity has from time to time been denied shall not be considered to be conclusive evidence that this criterion has not been met. Evidence to be relied upon in determining a group's Indian identity may include one or a combination of the following, as well as other evidence of identification by other than the petitioner itself or its members.


(1) Identification as an Indian entity by Federal authorities.


(2) Relationships with State governments based on identification of the group as Indian.


(3) Dealings with a county, parish, or other local government in a relationship based on the group's Indian identity.


(4) Identification as an Indian entity by anthropologists, historians, and/or other scholars.


(5) Identification as an Indian entity in newspapers and books.


(6) Identification as an Indian entity in relationships with Indian tribes or with national, regional, or state Indian organizations.


----------------------------------

A Tribe must meet alllll these criteria!




List of Tribes that are currently seeking Recogniton
http://www.bia.gov/idc/groups/xofa/d.../idc013623.pdf
(BTW This is a complete list of Tribes, even those that have recieved rejection letter many years ago)

List of the 564 Federally Recognized Tribes
http://www.bia.gov/idc/groups/xraca/.../idc011463.pdf
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Old 01-02-2012, 04:21 PM   #382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
(a) The petitioner has been identified as an American Indian entity on a substantially continuous basis since 1900. Evidence that the group's character as an Indian entity has from time to time been denied shall not be considered to be conclusive evidence that this criterion has not been met. Evidence to be relied upon in determining a group's Indian identity may include one or a combination of the following, as well as other evidence of identification by other than the petitioner itself or its members.


(1) Identification as an Indian entity by Federal authorities.


(2) Relationships with State governments based on identification of the group as Indian.


(3) Dealings with a county, parish, or other local government in a relationship based on the group's Indian identity.


(4) Identification as an Indian entity by anthropologists, historians, and/or other scholars.


(5) Identification as an Indian entity in newspapers and books.


(6) Identification as an Indian entity in relationships with Indian tribes or with national, regional, or state Indian organizations.


----------------------------------

A Tribe must meet alllll these criteria!




List of Tribes that are currently seeking Recogniton
http://www.bia.gov/idc/groups/xofa/d.../idc013623.pdf
(BTW This is a complete list of Tribes, even those that have recieved rejection letter many years ago)

List of the 564 Federally Recognized Tribes
http://www.bia.gov/idc/groups/xraca/.../idc011463.pdf
Thanks Josiah, I knew this would come up soon.

And that leaves the OH Saponi group out right off the top in the first few criteria. They don't fit, match or relate in any way. And that's a fact!!!

So there goes your fantasy again. They are not a "tribe" they are a club!!!
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Old 01-02-2012, 04:22 PM   #383
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timmy tiger View Post
HAHAHAHA Okay, do you know what year this is? It just turned 2012. So even giving it as 2011, you are saying that the "Saponi's" went to OH in 1840's-1850's, that's still 171 years, how much close to 200 do you anally want it to be? And they are not on the 1850 federal Census in OH listed as Indian's. And are you aware that there was an Indian Agent that covered the OH territory in the 1800's and his records do not state Saponi, he mentions other tribes, but I have never seen Saponi, I will get out my list and post what the National Archives has on the OH Ndn's back then and you can see it for yourself, but it will take me a little bit to get it all.

And another point of fact that is mentioned in all the records is that Saponi's mixed with former slaves, um you are aware that the former slaves were not set free until after 1865, in most cases. Also, have you seen the OH Saponi's? All of them that I've seen are of the mixed as mentioned above, again not to say that some don't have some back ground, but not all are.

And by their own website, and yes I did read it, and I can comprehend what I read too, they only became a "tribe" in 1998, that's only 13-14 years ago. Geez, where were they before. They sure weren't hiding or in fear of being removed then. No, they found out the some considered it "cool" to be Indian and the Casino's came out and they wanted to get some of that "free" money that doesn't really exist other then in jealous people's small minds.

Don't be foolish or childish enough to try to put words in my mouth, I'll puke them back on you if you do!!!! I never said anyone could use any name they wish. But you are trying to discredit a group simple 'cause they won't let you play with them. That's your problem. The OH group is NOT State Recognized and so they are NOT a "Tribe", just a club. And you know I have to agree with Zeke about why you are trying to fight it so hard, they can't get Federally recognized anyway 'cause of the Federal law of Blood Quantum having to be 1/4 to be considered Tribal and recognized by the Federal Gov and the BIA. So you get NOTHING out of it either way and all your boasting of being better or more then another is just you on a major ego trip trying to prove something, um only to yourself.

Okay, so what's your problem with the GA tribe? Oh wait, they rejected you too, didn't they.LOL I'm not a part of or descended through them, so I don't have to bother with that at all and they are recognized by the state they reside in, anything further goes federal. That's why you have to go to another State.LOL But the one you are claiming isn't even recognized in the state that they now live and weren't together as a tribe prior to (by the way that means before) 1998. So it's all a bunch of smoke and mirrors.

The reason I don't enroll in the state recognized Cherokee tribes is...ummmm I do not claim Cherokee...umm ever thought of that. Why would I want to enroll in a tribe named cherokee when I do not claim cherokee? The state recognized cherokee actually asked me to enroll with them, however that is not groups I wish to enroll in.


Ohio was the Eastern Siouan's home before they entered into virginia. What part of that do you do not get? They came from Cahokia, to Ohio, then to virginia. Cahokia being the homeland.

As for the people enrolled in the Ohio band of Saponi not being called a tribe Earlier, I have already proved that as false. A large chunk of the Collins Melungeons of Newman's ridge is enrolled in the Ohio Band of Saponi.

We've been called everything from Aztec's, to ancient egyptians, to aliens, to Melungeons. Melungeon basically means mixed race people, The Collins family is where the saponi blood comes into play for the Melungeons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zl_eLJWx2n0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESNfNSqBNvA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxPxaXn5oIg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WO0UOsp-NZ8


umm yeah, they just recently became a tribe lol

The Melungeons was started by Chief Vardy Collins who came there with his fellow indian friend Shepard Gibson. They started a community on Newman's ridge, a few other families who was non native migrated there with them and vardy and shep invited them to live there with ther families, over time they became mixed. The descendants of Vardy Collins is the saponi ones, some people on the ridge do not have vardy or shepard's blood. The saponi lived with Portugesse people, often times Portugesse men was found i the saponi tribes, the same happened at Newman's ridge, these same portugesse men also came to live with Vardy and Shepard. Shepard gibson did not come from the saponi, he was from another tribe. Instead of putting their dead in mounds, they tried something else since they was on mountain ridges, they actually buried their dead and then built little wooden houses over each grave (not houses you live in), this is probally the last form of indians of the south east trying to keep the burial mound style contiued. The ones who migrated off the mountain ridge entered into Ohio in 1850's and they moved toard the Serpant mound in Ohio. Before the collins moved onto Newman's ridge, they was living at the saponi mound in virginia. The collins broke off into 2 fractions, Newman's ridge migration and the group that migrated to the Catawba and Lumbee areas.

Will allen Dromgole in the late 1800's tried to sneak up onto the ridge to do stories on them from first hand accounts. Here is a link to her writings.

http://historical-melungeons.com/wad.html

So your story about the Ohio saponi not being called a tribe until recently is totally untrue.

so there goes your fantasy Timmy.

Last edited by ECSN; 01-02-2012 at 04:24 PM..
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Old 01-02-2012, 04:23 PM   #384
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Oh and one person's court records a long time ago does NOT make a whole tribe, just his descendants. Using one person as a basis for a whole tribe is totally wacked and worthless.
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Old 01-02-2012, 04:26 PM   #385
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The Point

So I gave you some time to read through the Documents that I posted from the Gov website

Erase your points about the 1700 or 1800

Come into the 20th Century
The 1st criteria is: The petitioner has been identified as an American Indian entity on a substantially continuous basis since 1900
Bamm end of story

Documents from 1700's Not allowed
Docuemts from the 1800's Nope

So at best is hope for State Recognition
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Old 01-02-2012, 04:32 PM   #386
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECSN View Post
The reason I don't enroll in the state recognized Cherokee tribes is...ummmm I do not claim Cherokee...umm ever thought of that. Why would I want to enroll in a tribe named cherokee when I do not claim cherokee? The state recognized cherokee actually asked me to enroll with them, however that is not groups I wish to enroll in.


Ohio was the Eastern Siouan's home before they entered into virginia. What part of that do you do not get? They came from Cahokia, to Ohio, then to virginia. Cahokia being the homeland.

As for the people enrolled in the Ohio band of Saponi not being called a tribe Earlier, I have already proved that as false. A large chunk of the Collins Melungeons of Newman's ridge is enrolled in the Ohio Band of Saponi.

We've been called everything from Aztec's, to ancient egyptians, to aliens, to Melungeons. Melungeon basically means mixed race people, The Collins family is where the saponi blood comes into play for the Melungeons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zl_eLJWx2n0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESNfNSqBNvA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxPxaXn5oIg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WO0UOsp-NZ8


umm yeah, they just recently became a tribe lol

The Melungeons was started by Chief Vardy Collins who came there with his fellow indian friend Shepard Gibson. They started a community on Newman's ridge, a few other families who was non native migrated there with them and vardy and shep invited them to live there with ther families, over time they became mixed. The descendants of Vardy Collins is the saponi ones, some people on the ridge do not have vardy or shepard's blood. The saponi lived with Portugesse people, often times Portugesse men was found i the saponi tribes, the same happened at Newman's ridge, these same portugesse men also came to live with Vardy and Shepard. Shepard gibson did not come from the saponi, he was from another tribe. Instead of putting their dead in mounds, they tried something else since they was on mountain ridges, they actually buried their dead and then built little wooden houses over each grave (not houses you live in), this is probally the last form of indians of the south east trying to keep the burial mound style contiued. The ones who migrated off the mountain ridge entered into Ohio in 1850's and they moved toard the Serpant mound in Ohio. Before the collins moved onto Newman's ridge, they was living at the saponi mound in virginia. The collins broke off into 2 fractions, Newman's ridge migration and the group that migrated to the Catawba and Lumbee areas.

Will allen Dromgole in the late 1800's tried to sneak up onto the ridge to do stories on them from first hand accounts. Here is a link to her writings.

http://historical-melungeons.com/wad.html

So your story about the Ohio saponi not being called a tribe until recently is totally untrue.

so there goes your fantasy Timmy.
I don't have a fantasy, I live in the real world and the real world is is that the Attorney General of the state of OH has publicly and on their official Website stated that "There are no Indian tribes in the State of Ohio." Now that blows your fantasy. They are NOT recognized by the state, not listed on any of the Federal Census' of the state as being Indian or a tribe, not even on the 1900, 1910, 1920 or 1930. So that's all that needs to go to say "um no way".LMAO They are NOT a TRIBE. You can produce all the books and letter's you want, but so can the State and federal gov proving that they have never been recognized by the entities that they now, since 1998, are trying to be recognized by.

Loosen up that headband!!!!
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Old 01-02-2012, 04:39 PM   #387
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECSN View Post
The reason I don't enroll in the state recognized Cherokee tribes is...ummmm I do not claim Cherokee...umm ever thought of that. Why would I want to enroll in a tribe named Cherokee when I do not claim Cherokee? The state recognized Cherokee actually asked me to enroll with them, however that is not groups I wish to enroll in.


Ohio was the Eastern Siouan's home before they entered into Virginia. What part of that do you do not get? They came from Cahokia, to Ohio, then to Virginia. Cahokia being the homeland.

As for the people enrolled in the Ohio band of Saponi not being called a tribe Earlier, I have already proved that as false. A large chunk of the Collins Melungeons of Newman's ridge is enrolled in the Ohio Band of Saponi.

We've been called everything from Aztec's, to ancient Egyptians, to aliens, to Melungeons. Melungeons basically means mixed race people, The Collins family is where the Saponi blood comes into play for the Melungeons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zl_eLJWx2n0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESNfNSqBNvA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxPxaXn5oIg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WO0UOsp-NZ8


umm yeah, they just recently became a tribe LOL

The Melungeons was started by Chief Vardy Collins who came there with his fellow Indian friend Shepard Gibson. They started a community on Newman's ridge, a few other families who was non native migrated there with them and Vardy and shep invited them to live there with ther families, over time they became mixed. The descendants of Vardy Collins is the Saponi ones, some people on the ridge do not have vardy or Shepard's blood. The Saponi lived with Portuguese people, often times Portuguese men was found i the Saponi tribes, the same happened at Newman's ridge, these same Portuguese men also came to live with Vardy and Shepard. Shepard Gibson did not come from the Saponi, he was from another tribe. Instead of putting their dead in mounds, they tried something else since they was on mountain ridges, they actually buried their dead and then built little wooden houses over each grave (not houses you live in), this is probably the last form of Indians of the south east trying to keep the burial mound style continued. The ones who migrated off the mountain ridge entered into Ohio in 1850's and they moved toward the Serpent mound in Ohio. Before the Collins moved onto Newman's ridge, they was living at the Saponi mound in Virginia. The Collins broke off into 2 fractions, Newman's ridge migration and the group that migrated to the Catawba and Lumbee areas.

Will Allen Dromgole in the late 1800's tried to sneak up onto the ridge to do stories on them from first hand accounts. Here is a link to her writings.

http://historical-melungeons.com/wad.html

So your story about the Ohio Saponi not being called a tribe until recently is totally untrue.

so there goes your fantasy Timmy.
So they are Portuguese ummm that dont make them Indian at best they intermarried with natives around them but that dont make a tribe that makes a Mix Race Community that eventually loses all there Indian Language and culture...
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Old 01-02-2012, 04:39 PM   #388
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http://historical-melungeons.com/articles.html

Alot more historical articles.


Hmm... this is kinda blowing your fantasy away huh timmy.


The name Melungeon is actually a racial slur, it's what the white settlers would yell before throwing rocks. Outsiders actually think Melungeon is a real tribe name, but it is nothing more than a racial slur for the mixed race indian tribe that live on newman's ridge which was headed by chief vardy collins.
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Old 01-02-2012, 04:52 PM   #389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ECSN View Post
http://historical-melungeons.com/articles.html

Alot more historical articles.


Hmm... this is kinda blowing your fantasy away huh timmy.


The name Melungeon is actually a racial slur, it's what the white settlers would yell before throwing rocks. Outsiders actually think Melungeon is a real tribe name, but it is nothing more than a racial slur for the mixed race indian tribe that live on newman's ridge which was headed by chief vardy collins.




Not even close. I don't fantasize about you or your fake tribe. That is NOT a tribe in the stat of OH!!

As for the name Melungeon, I can remember just a few years ago reading about the history and at that time they said that they were European descents that had some native appearances but were not NATIVE. So now that's changed. Well, wait a few years, it will change again. Doesn't prove a thing.LOL

And you keep bring up TN, that's still not OH and still doesn't mean a thing when you are talking about being state recognized in OH, which your club is not!!!

You want to come on here, argue with us, get us to see your point and agree with you so that you can then Join your club stating that YOU helped them to be recognized by NDN's. That's so wacked and not gonna happen.LOL They are not, will not and never have been a tribe and never will be. They are a club and that's all they are.
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Old 01-02-2012, 04:59 PM   #390
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LMAO--I can't stop laughing, I have tears rolling down my face. This is just too comical and unbelieveable.

What's there to fantasize about? A bunch of people running around at pow wow's wearing plastic poney beads saying "The colors mean something, but I don't know what they mean. Let me ask my wife. She knows." :Hysterica


That really happened too guys, see why I'm laughing so hard. And it was said right to a tribal member of the EBC while I was standing right there. Funniest thing I ever saw. The Tribal member just looked and went "Huh?".LMAO I was loosing it and still am every time I think of them.HAHAHAHAHA
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Old 01-02-2012, 05:09 PM   #391
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
So they are Portuguese ummm that dont make them Indian at best they intermarried with natives around them but that dont make a tribe that makes a Mix Race Community that eventually loses all there Indian Language and culture...
Hmm, that is not what them articles says now is it???

No that is not what that article says, it actually says the opposite lol.

Portugesse lost their language and culture by being around us lol. I'm sure alot of people tell you that you have a selective memory lol.

Portugsse men was documented with the saponi tribes as well. Portugesse men was documented as living among the Hatteras tribe also, and many other tribes. Those portugesse men lost their culture and their culture was replaced with the indian tribes they lived with.
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Old 01-02-2012, 05:25 PM   #392
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You mean how you do by making women cry and then go around bragging about it? lol

move along.
Factually stating that an obnoxious woman cried because I publicly eviscerated her argument doesn't strike me as bragging. (Same is happening -- except we can only sense your tears -- in this very thread.)

If you were at all secure in who you are, you'd not ineffectually whine so much.

Truth is that I don't care what you are or think you are, it doesn't impact me at all.

But your whining is lame.

You were given both a public and personal opportunity to be rational and intelligent, you're just not.
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Old 01-02-2012, 05:26 PM   #393
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Hmm, that is not what them articles says now is it???

No that is not what that article says, it actually says the opposite lol.

Portugesse lost their language and culture by being around us lol. I'm sure alot of people tell you that you have a selective memory lol.

Portugsse men was documented with the saponi tribes as well. Portugesse men was documented as living among the Hatteras tribe also, and many other tribes. Those portugesse men lost their culture and their culture was replaced with the indian tribes they lived with.

Are you absolutely sure I can't get you some Dr. Shoals for your mouth? I'd be more then happy to get it and ship it to you.

Keep going Josiah, I know you have more to copy and post here.LOL
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Old 01-02-2012, 05:30 PM   #394
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Factually stating that an obnoxious woman cried because I publicly eviscerated her argument doesn't strike me as bragging. (Same is happening -- except we can only sense your tears -- in this very thread.)

If you were at all secure in who you are, you'd not ineffectually whine so much.

Truth is that I don't care what you are or think you are, it doesn't impact me at all.

But your whining is lame.

You were given both a public and personal opportunity to be rational and intelligent, you're just not.

^^^^^ what he said.LOL

DAng it there's no like button on here. Sometimes some really good ones come out from everyone and we can only use the reps and not that often.LOL
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Old 01-02-2012, 05:33 PM   #395
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LMAO--I can't stop laughing, I have tears rolling down my face. This is just too comical and unbelieveable.

What's there to fantasize about? A bunch of people running around at pow wow's wearing plastic poney beads saying "The colors mean something, but I don't know what they mean. Let me ask my wife. She knows." :Hysterica


That really happened too guys, see why I'm laughing so hard. And it was said right to a tribal member of the EBC while I was standing right there. Funniest thing I ever saw. The Tribal member just looked and went "Huh?".LMAO I was loosing it and still am every time I think of them.HAHAHAHAHA
the funnier part is, federal native Americans wearing glass beads and saying those beads are native american. Glass beads was brought here from european areas. The REAL beads native americans used was shell. And for North Carolina, and Virginia, the only 2 colors we really used was Red and blue.

Or here is a even funnier thing, Federal tribes saying they have lived in the one area they are in for over 6000 years, that one always makes me laugh so hard, since the the bones found in their areas that are older than 6000 years do not show any resemblence to them, that one always cracks me up LMAO.
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Old 01-02-2012, 05:41 PM   #396
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the funnier part is, federal native Americans wearing glass beads and saying those beads are native american. Glass beads was brought here from european areas. The REAL beads native americans used was shell. And for North Carolina, and Virginia, the only 2 colors we really used was Red and blue.

Or here is a even funnier thing, Federal tribes saying they have lived in the one area they are in for over 6000 years, that one always makes me laugh so hard, since the the bones found in their areas that are older than 6000 years do not show any resemblence to them, that one always cracks me up LMAO.
I don't know what you are saying, 'cause everyone I know calls them chek beads.LOL And you aren't the only one who knows that stuff.HAHAHAHAHA And you are speaking for two states, there were a lot of actual tribes in that area, you might want to re-think that again. See what I mean, are you sure I can't send you that package.

Never heard that one, but if you are such a great History person, what tribe says they were in that particular area 6,000 years ago that you can prove they weren't? And what do you base a "resemblence" on. Didn't know they had photography 6,000 years ago.LOL

Are you absolutely sure here?LMAO
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Old 01-02-2012, 05:46 PM   #397
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Factually stating that an obnoxious woman cried because I publicly eviscerated her argument doesn't strike me as bragging. (Same is happening -- except we can only sense your tears -- in this very thread.)

If you were at all secure in who you are, you'd not ineffectually whine so much.

Truth is that I don't care what you are or think you are, it doesn't impact me at all.

But your whining is lame.

You were given both a public and personal opportunity to be rational and intelligent, you're just not.
I've proven I actually know the subject I speak on.

Actually I'm quite laughing along with alot of others over the little knowledge some of these people actually have on the subject they "attempt" to jump in on, that is hillarious. Even more hillarious is how you like to play both sides of the fence lol

The truth is when it comes to real life if it's not a woman you shut up quick, unless its running back to a "message board" to spout off little insecure comments. It's quite funny how Men have encouraged you to try what you did with KiowaKat with them and you always run away. How come you only spout off behind a message board but in real life you'll only spout off to women? Hillarious

Point made, case closed.
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Old 01-02-2012, 05:52 PM   #398
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Hmm, that is not what them articles says now is it???

No that is not what that article says, it actually says the opposite lol.

Portugesse lost their language and culture by being around us lol. I'm sure alot of people tell you that you have a selective memory lol.

Portugsse men was documented with the saponi tribes as well. Portugesse men was documented as living among the Hatteras tribe also, and many other tribes. Those portugesse men lost their culture and their culture was replaced with the indian tribes they lived with.
Ummm Yeah
I told you need to read what your spewing
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Old 01-02-2012, 05:57 PM   #399
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I don't know what you are saying, 'cause everyone I know calls them chek beads.LOL And you aren't the only one who knows that stuff.HAHAHAHAHA And you are speaking for two states, there were a lot of actual tribes in that area, you might want to re-think that again. See what I mean, are you sure I can't send you that package.

Never heard that one, but if you are such a great History person, what tribe says they were in that particular area 6,000 years ago that you can prove they weren't? And what do you base a "resemblence" on. Didn't know they had photography 6,000 years ago.LOL

Are you absolutely sure here?LMAO
Florida bog bones

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2LbIE7juOw

Kenniwick man

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KlWSA70Vp0


Just 2 examples out of many. Bones older than 6,000 years ago look nothing like modern TV Indians, they actually resemble more of these non recognized tribes which you call fake and frauds. Interesting stuff.
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Old 01-02-2012, 06:00 PM   #400
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Ummm Yeah
I told you need to read what your spewing
You may actually want to fully read that stuff again before making comments back on it lol just saying lol
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