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Old 01-13-2012, 06:29 AM   #681
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaahl View Post
Let me give you my opinion on why folks on here often refer to a former user with very opinionated comments.

Kathy Dickerson made the choice to take up the battle of ramping up an existing American legislation on Indian Arts and Crafts. She went public with her support and by the very nature of her advocacy, she became the face and synonymous of the beefed up IACA. She has by her own volition and appearances in numerous websites, news clippings and in public, become a public figure and as such can and should expect to draw fire for those who simply don't agree with her. She also should expect to attract supporters with her advocacy.

Here's the thing about legislation and laws... in order for them to be competent and valid they must be able to bring about debate. Laws that do not are simply void for vagueness. There will always be those who oppose legislation and whether it is opinion or for constitutional reasoning, it is their right to do so. Those who support such laws, must also be able to vigorously defend their opinions and constitutional rights as we see fit in a free and democratic society.

Kathy Dickerson has drawn her proverbial line in the sand and now must accept that she is the face of this legislation and will be the focal point of any discussion on the subject. If she would rather be anonymous then she also has the choice to take a step into oblivion. Like any public figure, she should expect to take her lumps if she's going to put herself out there. She shouldn't expect to be given a buy by those who oppose her advocacy, actions or methods.

That's why I've allowed references to her to stand. I think it's pretty clear that her position has been argued to the point that the IACA is still up and running and perhaps it should be left to stand on its own merits now. If you are seriously contending that we silence the critics of both Kathy Dickerson and the IACA, then perhaps you need to remind yourself that we haven't quite got to practising oligopoly and living in an oligarchy state yet.
Actually she is not the only voice, but many she just has voiced her opinion on here, David Cornsilk who is a strong advocate of the IACA from the early 90's is also a voice he just does not express it on here.

But she was not banned for this and by the way the Two people that were involved were both banned.

This Thread is about the Federal Cherokee and yes that is where the arts and crafts fight began in the 90's or was pushed into the limelight. For there were so many so-called Cherokee Heritage groups labeling there "stuff" as Native made it was hard to determine if that was so.
The Fight began with Arts and Crafts but has spilled over into can these groups call themselves Cherokee???
If you look up the History of this issue you will see that the Cherokee Nation was right there in the middle of it in Missouri and Arkansas.
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Old 01-13-2012, 06:55 AM   #682
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so it come down to etiquette or moral property and where it feels wrong to say something hard about a female unless of course the woman has acted out side of her basics form of what a woman is ie not nurchers her babies or did something unworthy of woman in general.. least that is where my comments come from, when some one says something in a wrong or hard way against this woman. even if she was the Presz i would think that it wouldn't cause me a good feeling in using some one in this way to win a argument or make a point because not only is it a attack it also a allowance to miss treat a female because of different of opinions
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Old 01-13-2012, 07:43 AM   #683
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaahl View Post
Let me give you my opinion on why folks on here often refer to a former user with very opinionated comments.

Kathy Dickerson made the choice to take up the battle of ramping up an existing American legislation on Indian Arts and Crafts. She went public with her support and by the very nature of her advocacy, she became the face and synonymous of the beefed up IACA. She has by her own volition and appearances in numerous websites, news clippings and in public, become a public figure and as such can and should expect to draw fire for those who simply don't agree with her. She also should expect to attract supporters with her advocacy.

Here's the thing about legislation and laws... in order for them to be competent and valid they must be able to bring about debate. Laws that do not are simply void for vagueness. There will always be those who oppose legislation and whether it is opinion or for constitutional reasoning, it is their right to do so. Those who support such laws, must also be able to vigorously defend their opinions and constitutional rights as we see fit in a free and democratic society.

Kathy Dickerson has drawn her proverbial line in the sand and now must accept that she is the face of this legislation and will be the focal point of any discussion on the subject. If she would rather be anonymous then she also has the choice to take a step into oblivion. Like any public figure, she should expect to take her lumps if she's going to put herself out there. She shouldn't expect to be given a buy by those who oppose her advocacy, actions or methods.

That's why I've allowed references to her to stand. I think it's pretty clear that her position has been argued to the point that the IACA is still up and running and perhaps it should be left to stand on its own merits now. If you are seriously contending that we silence the critics of both Kathy Dickerson and the IACA, then perhaps you need to remind yourself that we haven't quite got to practising oligopoly and living in an oligarchy state yet.
the debate over IACA happened before the law was passed...and those who would profit from it not having passed continue to try to have it tossed...the main problem was,there was no money allocated for enforcing the law,so it was up to individuals and groups to report violators...now the law is being enforced thankfully...
by your own rational,zeek has also put himself in the spotlight in his former job as director of an Indian Center,so the same rules should apply to him as they do to KK...
i am not contending silencing anyone,only that any and all rules apply EQUALLY to those involved...and there have been other instances here that zeek has name-called people who are NOT in the spotlight nor public figures but simply stating their own opinions...but zk was not warned and has continued unchecked...thats a double standard...
as far as US/Canadian Indegenous Peoples,we do face many of the same problems and issues but we also face differnt ones...i know there is not the plague of fake tribes and groups in Canada that we face in the US,and i hope you consider yourselves very lucky!
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Old 01-13-2012, 07:45 AM   #684
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
Actually she is not the only voice, but many she just has voiced her opinion on here, David Cornsilk who is a strong advocate of the IACA from the early 90's is also a voice he just does not express it on here.

But she was not banned for this and by the way the Two people that were involved were both banned.

This Thread is about the Federal Cherokee and yes that is where the arts and crafts fight began in the 90's or was pushed into the limelight. For there were so many so-called Cherokee Heritage groups labeling there "stuff" as Native made it was hard to determine if that was so.
The Fight began with Arts and Crafts but has spilled over into can these groups call themselves Cherokee???
If you look up the History of this issue you will see that the Cherokee Nation was right there in the middle of it in Missouri and Arkansas.
thank you Josiah :-)
what people dont seem to realize is,all of these issues and problems are inter-twined,they are not cubbyholed and packaged in little boxes...
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Old 01-13-2012, 07:47 AM   #685
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Originally Posted by 2lineCarrandMorgan View Post
so it come down to etiquette or moral property and where it feels wrong to say something hard about a female unless of course the woman has acted out side of her basics form of what a woman is ie not nurchers her babies or did something unworthy of woman in general.. least that is where my comments come from, when some one says something in a wrong or hard way against this woman. even if she was the Presz i would think that it wouldn't cause me a good feeling in using some one in this way to win a argument or make a point because not only is it a attack it also a allowance to miss treat a female because of different of opinions
Sadly, when one aligns them self with a prominent cause and enters into the public realm of advocacy and debate, gender is something that one should not hide behind because the debates get heated. I think that what one should attempt to obtain in a debate is a strong position rather than relying on finding the vulnerable areas of the person... as we often see in political opponents. That said, once one steps into the public arena and demonstrates a manner and demeanor that is combative and adversarial, then one can not expect to cry foul at having the same traits volleyed back at them by their opponents...

As my gran used to say, "If you don't want to get dirty with the hogs in the sty, stay out of the sty."

Now, back to the Cherokee debate... Josiah, what do you think would happen if rather than trying to dispense with heritage groups all together that the Cherokee Nation - as part of their public education programs were to control them and make them subject to agreements on names, roles and responsibilities - limit their activity to certain areas and numbers?

I only say this because we have had a rush on our culture up here by non-native folks - not so much that they want to be us or wannabes but they have a genuine interest in our history and the way we do things. They have historically ignored us for so long that now that we are part of the decisions that take place in our territory, non-natives have come to learn they know nothing about us. We have a dance group that is open to anyone in the community... native or non and they can come and learn the dances, songs and even how to make an outfit... but we control where they perform and what they perform. We're seeing more non-native kids in schools taking the language classes because their parents know that when they grown up, our languages will probably be the language of business up here.

We've reconciled that we simply can't keep up the pace of a them v us anymore and have asked the nons to join us in learning who we are... taught by us and not some fancy named guy from Hoboken Noo Joosey.
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Old 01-13-2012, 08:03 AM   #686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sokoki_wolf View Post
the debate over IACA happened before the law was passed...and those who would profit from it not having passed continue to try to have it tossed...the main problem was,there was no money allocated for enforcing the law,so it was up to individuals and groups to report violators...now the law is being enforced thankfully...
by your own rational,zeek has also put himself in the spotlight in his former job as director of an Indian Center,so the same rules should apply to him as they do to KK...
i am not contending silencing anyone,only that any and all rules apply EQUALLY to those involved...and there have been other instances here that zeek has name-called people who are NOT in the spotlight nor public figures but simply stating their own opinions...but zk was not warned and has continued unchecked...thats a double standard...
as far as US/Canadian Indegenous Peoples,we do face many of the same problems and issues but we also face differnt ones...i know there is not the plague of fake tribes and groups in Canada that we face in the US,and i hope you consider yourselves very lucky!
Yup, and you're are being afforded your opportunity to speak on your opinion of Zeke as equally and robustly as he on his opinions. If he decides to rebut your comments he will but as I have suggested, if you have personal issues with him, you might be better served by taking it to the PM feature.

I do want you to take note that you fired the first shot over the bow with your first post upon your return. Even after being asked by myself to take whatever your personal disagreement with Zeke is to PM, you have continued to remain in the public thread and you have been afforded a large latitude so far. Please read the little saying my lovely Haida Grandmother was often heard to mutter when we complained to her that the fight we were in wasn't going as we had hoped.

As for your comment on considering ourselves lucky here, I'll mention that sentiment when we meet in Ottawa over the abysmal conditions in our northern communities. I'm sure we'll be happy to know our brothers and sisters in the south are worse off than we are. Please, with all due respect, give your head a shake brother.
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Old 01-13-2012, 09:10 AM   #687
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Wow.

I must have struck a nerve...(sigh)

Note: when someone replies emotionally to scrutiny, it's because they are aware their argument doesn't hold up, rationally.

1. I don't care why/if/whether KiowaKat was banned.
2. I don't mind if she's here or elsewhere for strict analysis.
3. But her own stance makes her grandkids, by definition, non-Native.

Think about that.

There's a powerful motive there and it's NOT anything related to protecting or furthering Native people: it's related to protecting and furthering KiowaKat.

Ask yourself, "What motive could she, or anyone else, have for such a race baiting position?"

Nearly universally, the answer is $$$.
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Old 01-13-2012, 09:23 AM   #688
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For Citizenship yes
Culture No
Two Different things

Too often people that are searching for the answer to the question who am I??
Think that once they get that magic card that the Whole NDNness will follow, like they belong to a secret society that only they can belong to.

Culture is learned from your Kinfolks...

Citizenship is something entirely different!!!
No arguement there Josiah, I mean I'm a Cherokee raised and living in Pima country, so I'm not nor have I ever debated anyone's culture

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Then you're supporting a trait that -- by definition -- becomes extinct over time or another that brokers the sort of individuals you've spent dozens of posts denigrating?

It's neither of these, it has to be culture: which means that race Nazis like KiowaKat are the bane of true Natives, growth, intelligence and/or the future.

They're just protecting their own financial best interest by placing fear filled tariffs on competing trinkets...

Sad.
Zeke, you know you get me all hot and bothered when you get all pot calling the kettle black. My level of activity of questioning someone, or even lambasting is solely in response to their ignorance and lack of respect of that of which they claim. I mean, I found my Animal Totem, do we really need to go there as to the level of ignorance and lack of respect that is? by someone who initially claim NDN blood, but then later retracted and said that it wasn't true! Well then why did we get all froggy and jump to the NDN board to post your new discovery. Or what about the person who PROVED Blackfoot. And as far as the infamous HistoryStudent/ECSN/(insert multiple personalities here) does that even really need to be analyzed I mean come on. How many people on this board am I friends with or even talk to frequently that are 1/2 or less in quantum? So your comment is once again ill informed and asinine.

Culture means nothing on a forum board when you are claiming blood. Culture can NOT be debated, you either have it or you dont. plain and simple. No argument there.

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Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
It's neither of these, it has to be culture: which means that race Nazis like KiowaKat are the bane of true Natives, growth, intelligence and/or the future.

They're just protecting their own financial best interest by placing fear filled tariffs on competing trinkets...

Sad.
So then you are willing to give some wannabe your "Native Entitled" free education you are a loted at Ottawa University because you are Ottawa?

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Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
They're just protecting their own financial best interest by placing fear filled tariffs on competing trinkets...
Sad.
And she has that right here in America, although I don't know why anyone would want to protect there work or even profit from it rather than let major corporation mass produce it in China and label it "Authentic Indian Made." Filthy hypocrite, glad she got run outta here, how dare her stand up for NDN folks and there children, whether it benefited her or not.


...and in 3, 2, 1, ...

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Old 01-13-2012, 09:41 AM   #689
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Old 01-13-2012, 11:20 AM   #690
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Yup, and you're are being afforded your opportunity to speak on your opinion of Zeke as equally and robustly as he on his opinions. If he decides to rebut your comments he will but as I have suggested, if you have personal issues with him, you might be better served by taking it to the PM feature.

I do want you to take note that you fired the first shot over the bow with your first post upon your return. Even after being asked by myself to take whatever your personal disagreement with Zeke is to PM, you have continued to remain in the public thread and you have been afforded a large latitude so far. Please read the little saying my lovely Haida Grandmother was often heard to mutter when we complained to her that the fight we were in wasn't going as we had hoped.

As for your comment on considering ourselves lucky here, I'll mention that sentiment when we meet in Ottawa over the abysmal conditions in our northern communities. I'm sure we'll be happy to know our brothers and sisters in the south are worse off than we are. Please, with all due respect, give your head a shake brother.
my comment about considering yourselves lucky,was only about the lack of fakes and frauds you have in canda,nothing else...honestly,i do not consider any of us lucky with what we have to deal with as Indigemous Peoples...and i said we face similar and different problems...we are all worse and better in different areas..
and i dont have a ''personal'' problem with zeeque,i dont agree with his opinions nor he mine...and we do have that right..i will ALWAYS defend what i do think and feel and those who cannot defend themselves,ive been doing it in real life for way too long to change now,and certainly wont stop out here in cyberland...
and if youre from the Pacific NW in Canada,you live in some great country,spent the last 10 years before i left the US just south of you...ask yourself this please...how would you feel if a non-Indian person suddenly started wearing a button blanket with a hello kitty design on it? i think you might be a bit insulted...
Black People in America were offended by ''black face''in the minstral shows in the early 1900's..is it wrong then for Indian People to be offended by non-Indians sterotyping what they believe to be Indian and dis-respecting our customs and spirituality?
i see so much of it here in Europe,people think that we still live in ''tents'',wear feathers,furs and leather clothing,as we did in the 1700 and 1800's...i spend alot of time talking with people here and trying to educate them as to what we are really like..i cant fault them because the only exposure they have for the most part,are the ''shamans'' who invade the european countries,making huge amounts of money of the people here..

all the questionable groups,cherokee and others, that are now trying to become recognized didnt exist until the casinos started to pop up...

as Homer Simpson said''first you dont want me to get a pony,now you want me to take it back-make up your mind Marge!''
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Old 01-13-2012, 11:23 AM   #691
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Wow.

I must have struck a nerve...(sigh)

Note: when someone replies emotionally to scrutiny, it's because they are aware their argument doesn't hold up, rationally.

1. I don't care why/if/whether KiowaKat was banned.
2. I don't mind if she's here or elsewhere for strict analysis.
3. But her own stance makes her grandkids, by definition, non-Native.

Think about that.

There's a powerful motive there and it's NOT anything related to protecting or furthering Native people: it's related to protecting and furthering KiowaKat.

Ask yourself, "What motive could she, or anyone else, have for such a race baiting position?"

Nearly universally, the answer is $$$.
you obviously do care.or you wouldnt continue to bring it up month after month,post after post....
and KK is very aware of what her Tribes criteria is for enrollment...so,even tho she it would affect her grandkids and their enrollment, she still stands by what her tribes rules are regarding enrollment...
perhaps thats because shes not a hypocrite?????

what motive do YOU have for race baiting? power? money???? over inflated ego???
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Old 01-13-2012, 11:39 AM   #692
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Now, back to the Cherokee debate... Josiah, what do you think would happen if rather than trying to dispense with heritage groups all together that the Cherokee Nation - as part of their public education programs were to control them and make them subject to agreements on names, roles and responsibilities - limit their activity to certain areas and numbers?
In one word
Sovereignty...

The Cherokee Nation has no control over these groups even if they were Cherokee!
All Three Federally Recognized Tribes are their own Sovereign Nation with a Government to Government Relationship with the Federal Government.

That is why these groups seek State Recognition because they can't meet that Requirement Nor have they been in existence continuously since 1900.
So they use State Recognition as a way to gain sovereignty and its working! Two more States: Tennessee and Kentucky are in the process of Writing Legistaltion to be able to grant recognition. This would grant these groups Education Grants and other Monies that would have gone to Federally Recongized tribes...

http://wapp.capitol.tn.gov/apps/Bill...lNumber=SB2177
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Old 01-13-2012, 11:54 AM   #693
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i want to say something about this in a light that been said but looking at a different groups of ppl
bikers that ride motorcycles have clubs called 1% there are other ppl forming clubs that want to have some of the same things the 1% have, there were wars and other problem going on concerning this also money was becoming more hard to come by as the clubs became more main stream ...wait a Minuit ... heres what happened the 1% clubs made umbrella groups that could fly the same colors but reversed and payed dues to the club that offers said chose, also was invite to some meeting and other group events and concerned brothers.. what it did was to control the up and coming ppl that wanted to belong but did not have what it took to be a 1% and added money and support in some activities ..im sorry to bring this comparison to the thread but its a view to how to look at a model of what some are saying might help
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Old 01-13-2012, 01:38 PM   #694
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what motive do YOU have for race baiting? power? money???? over inflated ego???
Wanting MY grandkids to be legally Native?

It's not my fault that KiowaKat is her own Prime Example of why her ideas are singularly dumb...
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Old 01-13-2012, 01:46 PM   #695
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Zeke, you know you get me all hot and bothered when you get all pot calling the kettle black.
Well, I live for that.

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How many people on this board am I friends with or even talk to frequently that are 1/2 or less in quantum? So your comment is once again ill informed and asinine.
And, In other news, "some of my best friends are black." (sigh) You're STILL espousing a failed doctrine.

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Culture means nothing on a forum board when you are claiming blood. Culture can NOT be debated, you either have it or you dont. plain and simple. No argument there.
Were there it would be a losing one.

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So then you are willing to give some wannabe your "Native Entitled" free education you are a loted at Ottawa University because you are Ottawa?
I didn't go to Ottawa, but I don't see the issue with anyone receiving education. The Ottawa go by lineage because we're 100 years ahead on the Manifest Destiny curve. If you are 1/∞ Ottawa? Go fo it. What's the problem, another kid in class?

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And she has that right here in America, although I don't know why anyone would want to protect there work or even profit from it rather than let major corporation mass produce it in China and label it "Authentic Indian Made." Filthy hypocrite, glad she got run outta here, how dare her stand up for NDN folks and there children, whether it benefited her or not.


...and in 3, 2, 1, ...
If you're not producing trinkets, you're not concerned with foreign competition.

She's standing up for nobody but herself, if you call "poor me protectionism" standing up.

I don't.
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Old 01-13-2012, 02:19 PM   #696
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Well, I live for that.




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And, In other news, "some of my best friends are black." (sigh) You're STILL espousing a failed doctrine.
Is that the History Student mentality of inserting what you think you here VS. what was actually said. You seem to forget I'm a half breed, unregistered by choice, with a not because I don't meet qualifications, with a white father a white wife, grew up in Pima country, and live in the pot of Arizona, surrounded by Mexicans, Blacks, and a whole lot of middle easterners, many in my neighborhood I like, many I don't. Want to call me a racist again you milk toast piece of crap?



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Were there it would be a losing one.
Again hearing only what you want, culture has never been the argument, because, you either have it or you don't. You are either Native or you are not, plain and simple stop playing monkey and the football.



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I didn't go to Ottawa,
Blood quantum too low?



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If you're not producing trinkets, you're not concerned with foreign competition.
So then how about transferring your bank account into mine, after all it's only Your hard earned money

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She's standing up for nobody but herself, if you call "poor me protectionism" standing up.

I don't.
Let's set the record straight, I don't know this woman and I don't care who she is, whether she aligned to it for her own personal gain or not, she has that right, and even if she toted it for personal gain, I don't really care. Was it intended to keep Natives from getting ripped off by anyone and everyone who wanted to make "NDN Arts and Crafts" or not?
 
Old 01-13-2012, 02:28 PM   #697
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Want to call me a racist again you milk toast piece of crap?
Why should I re-state your own verbiage? You are what you are.

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You are either Native or you are not, plain and simple stop playing monkey and the football.
Who decides? You're just,as per usual, showing an inability to critically think.

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Blood quantum too low?
Now, you're just -- weakly -- flailing.

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So then how about transferring your bank account into mine, after all it's only Your hard earned money
That I earn without protectionism.

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Let's set the record straight, I don't know this woman and I don't care who she is, whether she aligned to it for her own personal gain or not, she has that right, and even if she toted it for personal gain, I don't really care. Was it intended to keep Natives from getting ripped off by anyone and everyone who wanted to make "NDN Arts and Crafts" or not?
No.
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Old 01-13-2012, 02:44 PM   #698
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Why should I re-state your own verbiage? You are what you are.
I sure hope you come to Phoenix one day, I'd love to introduce you to my size 12D snakeskins



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Who decides?
The blood you possess and the culture you are a part of, not want to be. As far as your critical thinking, to quote you, That is nothing more than mental masterbation



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Now, you're just -- weakly -- flailing.
I wonder, is that why you are so bitter about blood quantum and scream Native entitlement? You weren't able to access it so there for your pissed?



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hat I earn without protectionism.
Could care less how you earned it, are you willing to turn it over? Yes or No



Put your money where your BIG mouth is or close it
 
Old 01-13-2012, 02:50 PM   #699
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I sure hope you come to Phoenix one day, I'd love to introduce you to my size 12D snakeskins
You'd be looking up at them.


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The blood you possess and the culture you are a part of, not want to be. As far as your critical thinking, to quote you, That is nothing more than mental masterbation
Actually, that's "intellectual masturbation" and learn to spell. If you can't form a cohesive thought, at least allow yourself to not INSTANTLY be deemed an idiot.

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I wonder, is that why you are so bitter about blood quantum and scream Native entitlement? You weren't able to access it so there for your pissed?
I had choices -- NOT based in entitlement -- and went another direction. You see, when you're not bound by entitlement, you can do that...

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Could care less how you earned it, are you willing to turn it over? Yes or No
Where/how/doing what, matters. Unless you're an entitlement dog?

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Put your money where your BIG mouth is or close it
I have.

You, clearly, just don't know me, do you?

How upset and threatened you are is amusing to me.
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Old 01-13-2012, 03:10 PM   #700
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You'd be looking up at them.
Actually they would be so far up your @$$ you'd have athletes throat.

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How upset and threatened you are is amusing to me.
you give yourself way to much credit. You are not a threat, merely an irritation, kinda like a rash.

Tell me Einstein what would be my motivation for preaching entitlement and quantum as you assume I do?
 
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