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Old 08-29-2007, 07:49 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by timmy tiger View Post
KK--I do agree that they do need their "tokens". This is what makes things hard for everyone. There are some who won't have anything to do with it, there are other's who eat it up like candy and it makes a big mess out of things, and then there are other's who say that they don't want any part of things like that and then they get sucked in (sometimes without knowing until it's too late and the damage is done). I have seen many of these. Shoot, you know my little history and some of these groups come after me to hook up with some of my family on the rez, I won't have any part of that and I tell them "no, thank you". And I tell my family that as well, they know that I won't do that to them. But we are seen together when we go to pow wow's and then some idiot gets this idea to make "friends" with me and that would be their way in, nope wrong answer. I have no way into anything. I am just who I am and my family is just who they are and we take care of each other, that's what it's all about. Not the hype and ego crazy.
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Old 08-29-2007, 07:51 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
Wow
I went to work at 4 PM and came home at 700 PM to all this
Holy Crap

Ok let me get this straight
1) DNA testing can not tell if your NDN or not
2) The NDN Center in Kansas City is not ran to the best interest of NDN's but favors wannabes who are not NDN
3) St Louis does not want just another "Ndn center"
4) The Thunderbirds are out of the Powwow business in Cahokia Mounds
5) Calling ones grandchildren anything in an "Adult Conversation" is ground for a *** whooping where I come from Leave the Children out of the conversation period!
6) Oh yeah It is best to know what your doing when it comes to set up a 501c3 including have lots of Lawyers standing around in case the fur flays
7) Stand back
Ready break

Just updating myself on where we are did I miss anything?
Excellent observation Josah, especially #5 and #7 LMAO....you left nothing out.....
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Old 08-29-2007, 08:41 AM   #183
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ya know what sad here josiah? i half agree with one of 'em and half agree with the other. while dont see having a card as the be all end all of ndn existance. the fact that someone has a federal card ,to me, only means that they have a federal card. i call them paper ndns,not as an insult, to illuminate thier obvious greater connection to thier card than thier people.
but i do feel that blood is nessesary. being ndn is more than just the cultural aspect of life.its more than just taking part in the powwow culture.
i like to think myself a strong individual, i once watched faces of death 1,2 and3 while eating little ceaser's pizza. but the phrase 'im indian in spirit' still makes me want to hurl
Too funny "I'm Indian in spirit" I think I would join you

I thought Faces 123 was kinda sad, that they felt they could make money off of that...

My father in the early 70's felt it was time to get a CDIB because as he said it then, "too many yo-ne-ga's running around trying to run our tribe"
Back then it was a piece of paper 8x11 you didnt excatly carry with you but he felt we should have one so he went into the BIA office in Tahlequah and got us all ones, I was like 10. They were issued first by the BIA and then you went to the tribal office and they enrolled you in the tribe
Up to that moment we were not even enrolled in the tribe according to the cherokee nation because the tribal government was just starting up again after essentially being disbanded since 1907.
Here is the point
He was still Fullblood Cherokee before all of this, spoke the language as all our kinfolks
It did not change anything as far as tribal identy he did it because he saw the tribal government forming and wanted to get fullbloods involved with it again.
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Old 08-29-2007, 10:14 AM   #184
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"#2 is crap." It does appear to not be run in the best interests of Kathy Dickerson.

"#6 requires professional leadership, a non single-family dwelling, a Board of Directors, By-Laws, State registration, open meetings, etc." None of these things appear to be associated with Kathy Dickerson.

"#7 isn't necessary." Unless truth is painful. I seem to recall, during an academic meeting -- in person -- wherein her self-serving agenda was laid bare, such was painful (tears) to Kathy Dickerson.

It was never my desire to report how she crumbles under scrutiny, but I am tired of her annoyance...

I adore the Ignore Feature.
# 6 is a good one for you to remember too zekey...i doubt highly you have been envolved in the beginning 501c3 process,i have many times and while you are correct in a base sense ,you also have left out a few key points such as any 501c3 is under public and private scrutiny,your books have to be open for anyone to see upon request...a 501c3's mission statement must be followed..and if theres a complaint about a 501c3,it results in an investigation...for an "indian" center as close to the fake tribe (thats selling tribal memberships)as yours is,id expect some scrutiny...would seem that the fake tribe also follows your own line of thinking,sell it to anyone and say theyre indian...HMMMMMMMMM
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Old 08-29-2007, 12:17 PM   #185
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nice words about Haskell zeke...and unbeleivable that anyone would stoop that low and bad mouth them that way. its disgusting and abhorent that he would belittle anyone who furthered their education,no matter where ... anyone associated with Haskell should be greatly offended and outraged by zekes comments...
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Old 08-29-2007, 01:14 PM   #186
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Skillet--You are right about the aweful stuff he said about Haskell. I don't offend easily, but I am now and I didn't go to Haskell.

I have some very very good friends who went to Haskell. And let me tell you a thing or two about Haskell and their graduates. There graduates are some of the most educated people that I know and can talk with anyone on that other person's own level.

A person very close to me went to Haskell and they were here in my home one day. Now, I know many who think that they are educated and all that (we all know someone like that), the person who went to Haskell doesn't look at themself like that, but there was another person here who does and she got her eyes wide opened. The woman graduated a State College years ago and has looked down on most people who don't finish college. Well, the person who is close to me was here and he never said one way or the other whether he had gone to college or not and I sure didn't say anything---it wasn't my place. Well, they got into a couple of little conversations and she very much surprised me. After the person close to me left, the woman looked at me and said "Wow, you can tell that he's a VERY WELL educated man. What does he do for a living?" Now, that told me volumes and should tell others. Haskell is a very good college and their graduates are some of the most well educated people that I have ever met.
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Old 08-29-2007, 01:54 PM   #187
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i think we've kinda drifted away from the original issue just a wee bit. its plain to see that both sides are rather passionate in thier views and opinions on the matter of whats best for people in youre immediate area. personally i think youre both just a bit tetched in the head so im gonna try to stear back on the road.....

the topic was going after federal recognition to get funding for education,housing etc.....
what makes the difference? if a non-rec gets recognition from the feds are they no longer wannabes? what is that one atribute that marks a group as being wannabe? is the line as thin as a document.....or what
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Old 08-29-2007, 02:06 PM   #188
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FM--I had sent a post pretty much saying the same thing right after the last one that I sent, but for some reason it didn't go through.

My questions here are:

How do we stop it?
Where do we start?


We are pretty much all saying the same things but in different ways:

1. Indian is Indain
2. You don't have to have a card to be Indian
3. But you do need to have blood

So, how do we know who's who? I have my family and have taken them back, but what about those who don't or haven't? Does that make them any less? And does a piece of paper or a little card make you more so then the person standing next to you?
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Old 08-29-2007, 02:18 PM   #189
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FM--I had sent a post pretty much saying the same thing right after the last one that I sent, but for some reason it didn't go through.

My questions here are:

How do we stop it?
Where do we start?


We are pretty much all saying the same things but in different ways:

1. Indian is Indain
2. You don't have to have a card to be Indian
3. But you do need to have blood

So, how do we know who's who? I have my family and have taken them back, but what about those who don't or haven't? Does that make them any less? And does a piece of paper or a little card make you more so then the person standing next to you?
that i'll buy.
ive never understood connecting ones identity more through a card than through ones culture and herritage. i was born and raised in chicago and there are fierce ethnic enclaves there. people who are 5th and 6th generation born americans who have an intense link to thier cultural identity through community and no card of any kind in sight. in contrast we have people who would like to take part in community but without a card theyre shown the door and labled wannabe.
to me it just doesnt make sense to bicker amongst ourselves and waste all that energy that could otherwise be spent fostering our own communites and strengthening our own hereditary and cultural ties
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Old 08-29-2007, 03:06 PM   #190
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Now, I can agree with you there.

But, here's the problem that I am seeing with these "Fake" tribes and the ones that many call "Wannabe's", it's not about people not being able to prove or dis-prove their heritage (in my way of thinking) so much as it is that many people now a days are going around fabricating a heritage to "fit" into something and then they get other's (who are innocent) involved with their version of what the trueth is and then it escilates from there and it takes forever for the trueth to come back out. People who are of Indian decent are known by other's, it's the ones who run around causing trouble and trying to "take over" or come in and change things to what they think that it should be. When these stories hit the papers (and many of them do) they look at Indian people as idiots or fools and that's a problem.

Here's a good example of what I'm saying:

When my son was in school a few years ago. There was a health teacher who said (in front of the whole class) "All Indian Tribes smoke Marijuana in their Peace Pipes", now doesn't this make a whole nation of people look stupid to have that said to a class of young children? Then when one of the students told her that my son was Indian and to ask him, she turned away and went on with something else. Who knows how many young children that she told that too. My son told me and I was furious, he said that he wanted to handle it, so I let him and I told him that if she didn't listen this time that I was going to talk to her. The next day one of the students brought it up again and she totally agreed with what she had said the day before. Then my son spoke up and do you know what she told him. She said "(his name) you go home and dry out a tobacco leaf and crumple it up, put it in your pipe and smoke it and then I will believe you." Oh that was it. My son didn't have a pipe and was about 12 years old at the time. I called the office and I did speak to her. She said that there's not enough known now about Indian people and that she had heard that from someone somewhere. This is a problem.

Then there are the ones who hear something, that's not true, but they believe it and a couple of people have almost died. Now, this isn't a problem? To me it is and can be moreso if we aren't careful about what is going out there about our ancestors and the people that we care about.
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Old 08-29-2007, 03:18 PM   #191
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those kind of teachers have no business in a classroom. and i hear ya one the outright fakes, but i never thought of that somuch as wanabe as criminal.fraud is fraud. i was more wondering about the little guys, the people who are of a genuine like herritage but for whatever reason arent recognized by state or federal governments. why is it such a bad thing for these people to get together in a tribal format?
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Old 08-29-2007, 03:18 PM   #192
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In my way of thinking this is all part of fostering our community and strengthening our ties.

But in the post that didn't go through. I did say that to argue with the same people about the same things is like a dog chasing his tail. It gets us no where fast.

To strenghten our communities, we have to protect our family and the ones that we care about from harm and that's what these "fake" tribes do---they bring harm to those who are true to who they are. They do this by making up a history that didn't exist. If it's history, then it's history. But there are so many who want to make a name---just for themselves----and get their names in the paper and on the TV and then people (many of whom are truely Indian people) fall for it and believe them and that's when all this other mess happens.
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Old 08-29-2007, 03:26 PM   #193
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See I could agree with you there, but the problem (again) lies with the con-man (or woman) who shows up and pushes or cons their way in and takes it over saying that they are something that they are not and that's where all these stories come from. It only takes one idiot to ruin what could be, would be or was a good thing. That's pretty bad: one idiot out of 100 good people, you know that's a scary thought.

That's what I think has happened here as well. One or two of these "Fake" tribes started up and were going around getting all this press based on lies and fabrications and it ruined it for the ones who might be real. But where do we end it? How do we know the good ones from the bad ones? And how can we say: Okay, Johnny your group can go on without resistance, but Beckey's over there can't? What would be the criteria for that? Who would make that kind of decision? Or who would want to? That's my bigger question, the one that would volunteer to police the whole Indian community---that's one I want to stay away from.

So for some it's just easier to fight them all and be on the safe side.
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Old 08-29-2007, 03:48 PM   #194
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thanks for turning this around, Okay well it's obivous that we are butting heads, we are a few hours away from each other (smiles) Anyways I can proudly say that we as a ndn and non ndn community, we are being self sufficient and not relying on social services. as it has been in the past, you would think that we would want that for our own communities...and yes wannabe's do hurt the American Indian culture, my question is would you want to go see a new ager talking about the moon and planets, shaking rattles and mumbling??..or go see a non native that researched his or hers subject to the point that they sometime can be reconized by that Tribe of choice?....

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Old 08-29-2007, 03:48 PM   #195
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Old 08-29-2007, 03:53 PM   #196
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See I could agree with you there, but the problem (again) lies with the con-man (or woman) who shows up and pushes or cons their way in and takes it over saying that they are something that they are not and that's where all these stories come from. It only takes one idiot to ruin what could be, would be or was a good thing. That's pretty bad: one idiot out of 100 good people, you know that's a scary thought.

That's what I think has happened here as well. One or two of these "Fake" tribes started up and were going around getting all this press based on lies and fabrications and it ruined it for the ones who might be real. But where do we end it? How do we know the good ones from the bad ones? And how can we say: Okay, Johnny your group can go on without resistance, but Beckey's over there can't? What would be the criteria for that? Who would make that kind of decision? Or who would want to? That's my bigger question, the one that would volunteer to police the whole Indian community---that's one I want to stay away from.

So for some it's just easier to fight them all and be on the safe side.
how do you stop it? stand up and expose fakes/wannabees,the more people that say this is wrong and we wont tolerate it,the faster it will help stop it.It will never be completely stopped but it can be slowed down.Hold fakes and wannas accountable for their actions...for every fake you hear about theres more you dont hear about unless people share information...this isnt about john doe who knows hes part indian and doesnt have a card...this is about people who are knowingly deceiving people for personal gain on any level...i think people get confused with the two groups..yes there are many people for what ever reason,cannot be enrolled and that doesnt diminish the fact they are indian...it does mean however that they cannot sell what they make(if it applies) as Indian made...what has been posted is in reference to groups of people who play indian and then as seems the natural progression that timmy mentioned,it prgresses from knowing they have an indian in the past family history,to being from a specific tribe,to being a medicine man or elder etc...and yup theres legit indians who play off these people as well,Sun Bear was a biggie and created that whole bear tribe of crystal indians...
one of the issues that cards does affect is if a person is an artist/craftsperson...the arts and crafts bill clearly states who can and cannot claim that their art is indian made etc....the bill was passed to help indian artists from fake indian art and imports...
again,i am not for cards but rather for each tribe determining for themselves their enrollment requirements...
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Old 08-29-2007, 05:51 PM   #197
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KK--you have me a little bit thrown off (not really a bad thing). You asked a question. That depends too. I have no interest or use for crystals, but for me (personally) I go to my family who have lived it all their lives. And I think that people should find their families and ask. But to someone who learned from them, I can answer that one too---I had the opportunity to see someone like that, of course I didn't go. I know a person who goes to a man who used to live with a Cherokee family and went out and wrote some books, now that's it again---they are capatalizing on the Indian way's and isn't that what these "fake" Tribes do that was the original post in the first place. But to get to the bottom of it and correct or keep it from happening again is to understand or think that we understand where they are coming from and stop them before they get to the point of where they are now. Making claims in the paper that are just ridiculous.

The post was about fake tribes, but it turns into who does or doesn't have a card. I have a friend whose father is Tribally enrolled and so is she, but her kids can not be, does that make them any less Indian? They go to pow wow's, dance and live their lives totally as Indian. My own father was known by people in Cherokee and so was my grandfather and now I am, but does that make me any less either---with or without a card? I've told many people (both in the Tribe and out of it) that if I have a card or not---it's no one elses business, that's between me, my family, the tribe and my ancestors. My blood line is there and verifiable by anyone who wants to look and that's the point with others. But these fake tribe's are they able to do that? If they can't---why not? And where are they getting their info to be putting things in the newpaper and changing history or making it something else?
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Old 08-29-2007, 06:12 PM   #198
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Back on Track

The is a whole other thread about Traditional vs Pan-Indianism
we can go over there and discuss that

Back to matter at Hand

The CDIB
Think about why it was created in the first place!
It became necessary when people that did not look Indian actually Claimed to be Indian for the Services that Indian get.
Before that time nobody in there right mind claimed to be Indian I mean look at all the Indians that did not claim anything that are left off the rolls

When ever Land and Money are being handed out there will be people that have no right to it standing in line wanting it

So out of necessity was born the Certificate Degree Of Indian Blood so that the BIA could hand out benefits to people that actually were entitled to them period.
Of course now the document means other things but that was the original intent.

So now we have a document that right wrong or indifferent allows some access to benefits and others with none...
So if you were a person that had no claim to a legitimate tribe what would you do?
Of course Make one!!!

Look at history People it will tell the story

Who would have thought to make a fake tribe 100 years ago
Well for one thing you would have been hunted down

How about 50 years ago
still nothing

How about 30 years ago
Well now things are heating up, There is money to be had Lots of Tribes are winning Court Cases and money is flowing toward the Tribes
How about 20 years ago
Casinos!!!

How about Crafts, Jewelry, Dance Clothes
Has anyone looked on line?? on Ebay for instance???
We are talking some major bucks here baby
I remember when I was a kid and we lived in Kayenta AZ
Look that up on a map you will see it is in the middle of the Navajo Rez
Anyway it was biggggggg business for the Navajos to make and sell Navajo rugs and Silver smiths abounded making there Jewelry
Have you seen the prices on line for some that stuff
Holy crap

It comes down to this
MONEY
There is so much money to be made it is worth the risk!!! That will always motivate the Con man or Woman

Besides

Being Indian is cool again
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Old 08-29-2007, 06:32 PM   #199
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Josiah:

In a round about way, that was what I was talking about as well. Was the CDIB---those children that I talked about have theirs, but they didn't have enough quantium to enroll in the Tribe itself. I have seen the papers and know for sure that that is what it was.

At times the CDIB and Tribal enrollement are two different things, believe this or not---I know this is going to start a heated discussion---it's not meant to be (seriously).

It is about money for many---capatalizing on the Indian's to fill their pockets. Whatever is the "in" thing at the time will bring out the con-persons to try to make money from it. Many people where who they were before all of this and many will be long after, it's the ones who are in it just to make a name or money for themselves.

I checked into the CDIB's and a few years back when they were run by the gov through the DOI and yes, those who were tribally enrolled members it was (many times) done automatically through the tribe. But I have known many who have gotten them with no Tribal enrollement---now alot of people will argue this point, but it did and has happened. I, also, know of a young man who got his CDIB through the BIA, but didn't get enrolled through the tribe and he went to college through that. But, again, people argue about it. He used to work with my Uncle and my Uncle is the one who told me about him.
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Old 08-29-2007, 07:28 PM   #200
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Tulsa World

Some illegals seek tribal cover

By S.E. RUCKMAN World Staff Writer
8/26/2007

Some illegal immigrants are seeking membership in nonfederally recognized Indian groups as a way to protect themselves from deportation.

Federal prosecutors charged a Mexican couple in Wichita, Kan., last week with making false claims of U.S. citizenship after the two allegedly purchased membership from the Kaweah Indian Nation.

Local federally recognized tribes said the likelihood of that occurring in Oklahoma is slim because obtaining membership or citizenship in a tribal nation involves intricate measures.

"It's up to the applicant to prove to us they're Osage," said Peaches
Cooper, Osage Nation tribal enrollment officer.

"We don't have to prove anything to them."

Tribal membership criteria must be documented by the applicant, and
federally recognized tribes in the area require that potential members trace their kinship to someone on the Dawes Roll, a federal census of American Indians taken in the early 1900s.

Tribes across the area enroll new members almost daily, particularly
newborns who are born to current tribal citizens, officials said.

However, there are those who have only recently learned
of their Indian status and want to belong to a tribe.

"We have had people call us who say, 'I have taken a DNA test, and I found out I am Indian, but I don't know what kind. Can I get a membership card?' "Cooper said. "The second question is usually, 'What do I get?' "

With the United Keetoowah Band of Cherokee Indians in Oklahoma, based in Tahlequah, there is no substitute for tribal lineage, said Tim Goodvoice, tribal administrator.

"Anyone who cares to enroll in a federally recognized tribe is going to have to prove it," he said.

"Anyone can lay claim to being Indian, but I suppose there could be
imposters. . . . It would take a lot of trouble, though."

The requirements for obtaining a tribal citizenship card differ with the tribes. Some tribes, such as the UKB, require that applicants have a specific degree of Indian blood to qualify.

Others, including the Five Civilized Tribes, have a descendency
requirement.

Those applicants need only prove lineal descendency to an original Dawes Roll enrollee.

The process is lengthy in either requirement, said one Osage tribal
official.

"Sometimes it takes years to verify a person's lineage," said Julia
Lookout, who established Constituent Services in her tribe to assist with such issues.

"We are the only group of people in the world that has to have a card to prove who we are."

Federal officials have issued warnings about tribal card "scams" used on unsuspecting and desperate immigrants.

Christopher Bentley, a U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services spokesman, said illegal immigrants have used cards from Indian groups in the Midwest recently because of the immigration issues in those states.

"Those (cards) absolutely, positively impart no authority. They mean
absolutely nothing," he said.

When law enforcement officials stop immigrants and conduct status checks, they regard the Law Enforcement Support Center database run by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security as the last word, Bentley said.

"Having a card issued by a tribe, recognized or not, doesn't imply any legal immigrant status to the bearer. Only a green card can do that," he said.

Oklahoma has 37 federally recognized tribes. Two other tribes are currently seeking official federal Indian status. Those two, listed by the Oklahoma Indian Affairs Commission, are the Delaware Tribe of Indians in Bartlesville and the Euchee (Yuchi) Tribe of Indians in Sapulpa.

Last edited by kiowakat; 08-29-2007 at 07:31 PM..
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