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Old 08-29-2007, 07:28 PM   #201
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being indian always was cool, just now it popular too
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Old 08-29-2007, 07:49 PM   #202
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timmy tiger View Post
Josiah:

In a round about way, that was what I was talking about as well. Was the CDIB---those children that I talked about have theirs, but they didn't have enough quantium to enroll in the Tribe itself. I have seen the papers and know for sure that that is what it was.

At times the CDIB and Tribal enrollement are two different things, believe this or not---I know this is going to start a heated discussion---it's not meant to be (seriously).

It is about money for many---capatalizing on the Indian's to fill their pockets. Whatever is the "in" thing at the time will bring out the con-persons to try to make money from it. Many people where who they were before all of this and many will be long after, it's the ones who are in it just to make a name or money for themselves.

I checked into the CDIB's and a few years back when they were run by the gov through the DOI and yes, those who were tribally enrolled members it was (many times) done automatically through the tribe. But I have known many who have gotten them with no Tribal enrollement---now alot of people will argue this point, but it did and has happened. I, also, know of a young man who got his CDIB through the BIA, but didn't get enrolled through the tribe and he went to college through that. But, again, people argue about it. He used to work with my Uncle and my Uncle is the one who told me about him.
as far as i knew the cdib and enrollment had nothing to do with each other at all. they come from two totally different agencies altogether. enrollment comes from the tribal entity which may or may not require a cdib. the cno does(i think)
require one others do not. in applying for a cdib enrollment is not a rquirement just herritage.
its kinda like having a visa AND a mastercard in your wallet, they both kinda do the same thing,just some places dont accept visa and some places dont accept mastercard.
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Old 08-29-2007, 07:55 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by timmy tiger View Post
KK--you have me a little bit thrown off (not really a bad thing). You asked a question. That depends too. I have no interest or use for crystals, but for me (personally) I go to my family who have lived it all their lives. And I think that people should find their families and ask. But to someone who learned from them, I can answer that one too---I had the opportunity to see someone like that, of course I didn't go. I know a person who goes to a man who used to live with a Cherokee family and went out and wrote some books, now that's it again---they are capatalizing on the Indian way's and isn't that what these "fake" Tribes do that was the original post in the first place. But to get to the bottom of it and correct or keep it from happening again is to understand or think that we understand where they are coming from and stop them before they get to the point of where they are now. Making claims in the paper that are just ridiculous.

The post was about fake tribes, but it turns into who does or doesn't have a card. I have a friend whose father is Tribally enrolled and so is she, but her kids can not be, does that make them any less Indian? They go to pow wow's, dance and live their lives totally as Indian. My own father was known by people in Cherokee and so was my grandfather and now I am, but does that make me any less either---with or without a card? I've told many people (both in the Tribe and out of it) that if I have a card or not---it's no one elses business, that's between me, my family, the tribe and my ancestors. My blood line is there and verifiable by anyone who wants to look and that's the point with others. But these fake tribe's are they able to do that? If they can't---why not? And where are they getting their info to be putting things in the newpaper and changing history or making it something else?
yup this thread was about fakes/frauds/scams etc and not about cards but it seems to be a continuing card issue...
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Old 08-29-2007, 07:59 PM   #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timmy tiger View Post
Josiah:

In a round about way, that was what I was talking about as well. Was the CDIB---those children that I talked about have theirs, but they didn't have enough quantium to enroll in the Tribe itself. I have seen the papers and know for sure that that is what it was.

At times the CDIB and Tribal enrollement are two different things, believe this or not---I know this is going to start a heated discussion---it's not meant to be (seriously).

It is about money for many---capatalizing on the Indian's to fill their pockets. Whatever is the "in" thing at the time will bring out the con-persons to try to make money from it. Many people where who they were before all of this and many will be long after, it's the ones who are in it just to make a name or money for themselves.

I checked into the CDIB's and a few years back when they were run by the gov through the DOI and yes, those who were tribally enrolled members it was (many times) done automatically through the tribe. But I have known many who have gotten them with no Tribal enrollement---now alot of people will argue this point, but it did and has happened. I, also, know of a young man who got his CDIB through the BIA, but didn't get enrolled through the tribe and he went to college through that. But, again, people argue about it. He used to work with my Uncle and my Uncle is the one who told me about him.
Actually back in the 70's it was not necessary to be enrolled in your tribe
You went to the BIA first then your tribe and at the time the only thing the Blue card gave you was the right to vote in tribal elections...
The benefits came from the BIA!!!
I had a CDIB before i was enrolled in the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma
It was through the BIA that the benefits for College was administered anyway
That has changed with the Cherokee Nation since they now have taken that over starting in the 80's
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Old 08-29-2007, 08:02 PM   #205
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Actually FM--it used to be that way. I have recently (in the last two months) talked to the BIA in Washington and then talked to three different offices through three different nations and so far they are saying the same thing. That each Tribe now has it's own BIA office that works closely with Tribal enrollement and that Tribal Enrollment now does the CDIB automatically. Like I said---I found that out recently through three Tribes and the main office. Actually, I think that it was 4 because I had another discussion with a friend who checked it out for me based on something else that I was saying before. And actually some of them talked to me--they didn't hang up on me.LOL

KK--that's just it. They are fake and what do we do to stop these people from selling "fake" memberships. It seems to me that when one pops up and gets caught, I have to ask how many others are out there doing the same thing and not getting caught. As I've said before in this post that I have seen so many people come to me saying that they are tribally enrolled through a tribe that is not State or Federally recognized. And they have "Tribal Membership" cards to show for it, one woman just pulled it out to show me. I didn't care, but she was saying that it was a "Cherokee" card and I happened to have known better. This goes on all the time.
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Old 08-29-2007, 08:08 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by Skillet View Post
yup this thread was about fakes/frauds/scams etc and not about cards but it seems to be a continuing card issue...
Actually I think the issue goes hand in hand
We are the only group in America that requires a card to prove our Heritage

Why is that???

Money

If Money was not involved this would not be an issue

So If I was a scam artist
1) I will start me a tribe and sell these cards to Illegals and say to them they are now citizens (Hey that is already happening)

2) Make myself a tribe and get federal aid (In progress)

3)Sell my stuff that I got from China (hmmmmmm Can anyone say EBAY) And then if someone was to call me on it
I would flip out my card from the So and So group of Missouri
and instant Legit!
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Old 08-29-2007, 08:32 PM   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
Actually I think the issue goes hand in hand
We are the only group in America that requires a card to prove our Heritage

Why is that???

Money

If Money was not involved this would not be an issue

So If I was a scam artist
1) I will start me a tribe and sell these cards to Illegals and say to them they are now citizens (Hey that is already happening)

2) Make myself a tribe and get federal aid (In progress)

3)Sell my stuff that I got from China (hmmmmmm Can anyone say EBAY) And then if someone was to call me on it
I would flip out my card from the So and So group of Missouri
and instant Legit!
i couldnt agree more...now with casinos theres an added bonus...personally im glad the BIA is getting tougher on recognition....look at the number of tribes going for recognition prior to casinos and look now...and when fakes sell on ebay theyre very clever to not violate the arts law...they list things as "native american STYLE" or im from a tribe but cant prove it type wording...theres a palce on line where you can get "tribal id cards" for a fee of course and that card entitles you to be a "TRIBALLY listed member" of thatorganization...a bit decepetive in the wording but how many people actually know what a real enrollment card looks like? Joe wannabee flashes a card he bought for 25 bucks with tribal on it and most non-indians will take that as proof..theres an author named lynn andrews who wrote these hokey new age books,theres a bunch of them....back 20 years ago i did a corporate search on her..her net worth that year was over 3 million from the sale of her books and lectures...all from these books that she claimed were true stories about her and a medicine woman...then you get the ones who play medicine man and run sweats and the like...and this happens from indians and non-indians alike...big bucks involved with ceremonies,ive heard of people being charged 300-400 per person but of course the money is "just to help with expenses"...i could go on and on,ive been dealing with scams and frauds etc for over 20 years now and managed to expose and shut down a few...and like weeds ,if you pull one,5 more grow back...
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Old 08-29-2007, 08:44 PM   #208
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Here is the lawsuite Texas has filed against Kaweah Group.

http://www.oag.state.tx.us/newspubs/...007kin_pop.pdf

thanks KWB!!
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Old 08-29-2007, 08:47 PM   #209
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how do you stop it? stand up and expose fakes/wannabees,the more people that say this is wrong and we wont tolerate it,the faster it will help stop it.It will never be completely stopped but it can be slowed down.Hold fakes and wannas accountable for their actions...for every fake you hear about theres more you dont hear about unless people share information...this isnt about john doe who knows hes part indian and doesnt have a card...this is about people who are knowingly deceiving people for personal gain on any level...i think people get confused with the two groups..yes there are many people for what ever reason,cannot be enrolled and that doesnt diminish the fact they are indian...it does mean however that they cannot sell what they make(if it applies) as Indian made...what has been posted is in reference to groups of people who play indian and then as seems the natural progression that timmy mentioned,it prgresses from knowing they have an indian in the past family history,to being from a specific tribe,to being a medicine man or elder etc...and yup theres legit indians who play off these people as well,Sun Bear was a biggie and created that whole bear tribe of crystal indians...
one of the issues that cards does affect is if a person is an artist/craftsperson...the arts and crafts bill clearly states who can and cannot claim that their art is indian made etc....the bill was passed to help indian artists from fake indian art and imports...
again,i am not for cards but rather for each tribe determining for themselves their enrollment requirements..
that's a start....making consumer awareness is not playing militant cultural police...
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Old 08-29-2007, 08:52 PM   #210
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Yes!!!!!!!! Absolutely, I agree with both of you and that's what I've been saying all along as well. The fake tribes.

But what about a person (I know someone right now and got in his face about it---too) who knowingly gets this card, he knows is not a "Tribal Enrollment" card and says that that is just one more thing that will prove his heritage and then goes around telling everyone that he meets that he is a member of that Tribe. Now, that's a big problem as well. People who do have a background, but still try to push it farther just to PROVE something.

But the thing is is that the "money" there is money out there for all (listed as) "Minority" groups and many people can get it other ways if they would just look and stop thinking that there is more for Indian people then anyone else. That's not even the case either. Many people think that because a Tribe has a casino that they are all millionaires, this is just totally stupid. There was only one tribe (that I know of) whose enrolled members got alot of money and I believe that they were the first ones to get a casino. All the other's that I know of don't get all that much. If these people would look at it, they would find that the money that goes to the tribal members is way below the poverty level that the gov. says that a family of 3 should live on and that's if both parents get a check each. So where is all this money that all these people are talking about? Grants? Shoot, There are Grants out there for just about anything all you have to do it look, so that's it----it's easier to claim to be Indian then to look into other Grants, so it's also about laziness.LOL (that is Sarcasim on my part)
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Old 08-29-2007, 09:13 PM   #211
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I have been speaking up for years. But for the most part, in this area I am the only one who does. And that makes it hard. Most of the people that I know of here from the Rezs' would rather just stay away from them then to go head to head. Although many have said to me or my husband (yes, I'm female) that they are glad that I do speak out. But so many people (as with anyone else) think that they know better and they fall for the con-person so easily. I have warned and warned people for years about other people and organizations that I hear about and know about and they are not listening. But we have to be careful too, sometimes the info that we get that a person is a "fake" or a "fraud", you have to be very careful that it's not sour grapes. These organizations, well this can be proven based on what they do, but they started somewhere. Where? Well, I think that we have hit that already here with how many of them get started. By one person or a couple of people and what about that one person who spoke up about these "fakes" and "frauds" way back when they first got started. I'll bet that if people checked into this one organization, back to where they started---you'd find out that there was someone who was speaking out against them. The problem with that is that they get the uninformed or the innocent who is just looking for where they come from and it snowballs from there. It takes numbers to stop this, if it could be stopped before it starts, that would be even better. But the one person who stands up for what's right becomes an outcast. But if it's right does that matter? I've been an outcast many places and I'm not done, yet. Believe me, I'm still going.
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Old 08-29-2007, 09:24 PM   #212
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LOL I am female as well, and a loud mouth I'm told but I get my point across, what we are doing here in St. Louis is educating the public, let them make the decision, good facts are better than just yanking it out of your arse...lol...like you said be darn sure you got your ducks in a row, I went as far as getting the media involved, the consumer doesn't like to be taken..it takes alot of time and patience...lol one I seem to always forget, but if they are conning in the long run they'll just shut down and go away or take on a different name...blogs to local new stations helps get the word out believe it or not....you don't need masses behind you thats for sure once you educated the consumer about American Indian issues....
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Old 08-29-2007, 09:26 PM   #213
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before computers and when i was doing this more than full time,we had a loose group of concerned indians around the country who would pass info on fakes back and forth...it worked pretty well too and it was all before computers...my own feeling is,that unless there are laws inacted and more so enforced,little can and will be done...if a person impersonates a priest,theyre charged with fraud,so why now if someones impersonating an Indian?
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Old 08-29-2007, 09:36 PM   #214
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Quote:
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before computers and when i was doing this more than full time,we had a loose group of concerned indians around the country who would pass info on fakes back and forth...it worked pretty well too and it was all before computers...my own feeling is,that unless there are laws inacted and more so enforced,little can and will be done...if a person impersonates a priest,theyre charged with fraud,so why now if someones impersonating an Indian?
again I agree this works, here is a two state support group

American Indian Heritage Support Center

they keep on top of these fake groups, with a beware lists, we need more groups to form to make a network throughout the states...what about that guy who impersonated a veteran..OMG he got thrown the book..lol...so what is the difference?...we are suppose to be the "National Treasure"....
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Old 08-29-2007, 09:47 PM   #215
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Yes, I am a very loud mouth too. I have and am speaking up on alot of things and about alot of people. I do have people behind me and pushing me to keep me going (all in a good way). Just in the past month I have done a few things and set a few people on their ears. My one Uncle from Cherokee called me and said "Now, Timmy don't go beating up on those women this week." That's a joke, I don't hit anyone, but I do get mad and speak my mind wether they like it or not. What tends to happen with that is that they walk away and go off with a group of people and I get pointed at, and that's okay. They aren't smart enough for me not to hear about it and it does make me laugh. I must be making them nervous if they go that way. But they never come near me again---one did and she got nailed and I guess that she got told about it too.LOL That's what was told to us. But, the thing is is that what I am seeing with many of the ones that as long as you speak up TO them, they go underground and then totally disappear. It's not just informing the people, but that is very very important---had I not been informed, I couldn't have gone up against them myself. My family supports me on this, shoot actually they encourage me to do this and it's drilled into my head on (almost) a daily basis. I forget about patience as well, I think that it's a mother thing.LOL

But what about the ones who are learning from a true Elder of a Tribe, but they are not Indian and everyone knows it and they are out there running and talking ceramony? I know a few of these as well. Actually, I think that they are handling that one themselves as well. Many of the Indian's in this are are getting sick of hearing it from them to the point that everyone is about to puck, so no one goes near that person much anymore. But this, again, has been going on for years and until I knew for sure and started speaking up, you should have heard the people who kept coming to me telling me that this person was running a ceramony for them or something along those lines.

Now, Skillet, truethfully (not to be offensive---I am being polite) if we were to go the way that you are saying for Indians as with the Priests, what about all those "White" kids out there who dress black and Rap? I do agree that something needs to be done about peole who claim that they are something that they are not. But, my family teaches me that to embarrass them is even better. Because then they will go away and never come back. It really works. I have gone place where someone was there that we had a confrontation and that person was embarrassed and they left shortly after seeing me there and many people tell me that they don't see them much anymore. That might work for some.
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Old 08-29-2007, 09:59 PM   #216
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Great, I looked at it a little bit, but the don't cover most of the states that I know of. But I do know of a couple of places in TN that are not on their list. I will look into it a little more in a few and see what they have to say. There are so many out there and so many of them are trying to recruit and I'm not interested. As I said before, if it's not the right way, then it doesn't need to be done. That's just my feeling on this.
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Old 08-29-2007, 10:01 PM   #217
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KK---who threw the book at him? How did they find out? I know of two personally out there claiming to be Vets who we know aren't and one of them claimed to be a (hold on to your hat) member of AIM and Indian and he is not the last two things at all.
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Old 08-29-2007, 10:02 PM   #218
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Great, I looked at it a little bit, but the don't cover most of the states that I know of. But I do know of a couple of places in TN that are not on their list. I will look into it a little more in a few and see what they have to say. There are so many out there and so many of them are trying to recruit and I'm not interested. As I said before, if it's not the right way, then it doesn't need to be done. That's just my feeling on this.
like I said its a 2 state list only but they might put up TN groups if you ask and help lol....
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Old 08-29-2007, 10:02 PM   #219
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Texas vs. Kaweah fakes

That a way texas! suite on the grounds of Consumer Protection Act and Deceptive Trade Practices~~

Glad to see state laws are being applied to protect consumers against these groups. Most of the groups realize they have to offer something in exchange for membership such as "federal recognition is right around the corner" or most of their memberships would not sell.

More and more of these groups are being very brave in their actions, more and more of these groups are being prosecuted for their actions.
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Old 08-29-2007, 10:06 PM   #220
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That a way texas! suite on the grounds of Consumer Protection Act and Deceptive Trade Practices~~

Glad to see state laws are being applied to protect consumers against these groups. Most of the groups realize they have to offer something in exchange for membership such as "federal recognition is right around the corner" or most of their memberships would not sell.

More and more of these groups are being very brave in their actions, more and more of these groups are being prosecuted for their actions.
hey Wesho lol, you said it!!
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