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Old 08-29-2007, 10:12 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
Actually I think the issue goes hand in hand
We are the only group in America that requires a card to prove our Heritage

Why is that???

Money

If Money was not involved this would not be an issue

So If I was a scam artist
1) I will start me a tribe and sell these cards to Illegals and say to them they are now citizens (Hey that is already happening)

2) Make myself a tribe and get federal aid (In progress)

3)Sell my stuff that I got from China (hmmmmmm Can anyone say EBAY) And then if someone was to call me on it
I would flip out my card from the So and So group of Missouri
and instant Legit!
the arts and crafts law is just a little harder than that to get around.....but not by much. i was at a powwow in PA once where a vendor had 4 bags of bells marked 'cherokee bells'. but if you flipped the bag over it was printed 'product of thailand' that in itself is a violation by the original distributor. but theres a second violation because the retailer knowingly put those bells out as 'cherokee bells' knowing they were from thailand. some of the law is a bunch of doublespeak but most is fairly clear espescially as it defines who is and who isnt covered under the law.

theres another thread called the cherokee thread where a post contained a link.... State-Tribal Relations: Indian Tribe States

this page lists both of KKs favorite groups as being recognized by MO. so are they fakes or what...and ....would they quit being fakes if the recognition was on the level?
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Old 08-29-2007, 10:15 PM   #222
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Kidnapping

Does anyone know the update on the wannabes who kidnapped Raven Laws (5 years old) in Maricopa County Arizona? Wonder if they were prosecuted or not. For those who don't know about this case they can view some information at:


On The Wings Of Eagles » Alabama Self Proclaimed “Indian” Community Kidnaps A Four Year Old Arizona Girl.
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Old 08-29-2007, 10:28 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by FluteMaker View Post
the arts and crafts law is just a little harder than that to get around.....but not by much. i was at a powwow in PA once where a vendor had 4 bags of bells marked 'cherokee bells'. but if you flipped the bag over it was printed 'product of thailand' that in itself is a violation by the original distributor. but theres a second violation because the retailer knowingly put those bells out as 'cherokee bells' knowing they were from thailand. some of the law is a bunch of doublespeak but most is fairly clear espescially as it defines who is and who isnt covered under the law.

theres another thread called the cherokee thread where a post contained a link.... State-Tribal Relations: Indian Tribe States

this page lists both of KKs favorite groups as being recognized by MO. so are they fakes or what...and ....would they quit being fakes if the recognition was on the level?
I noticed this lol I'm going to check it out.....
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Old 08-29-2007, 10:36 PM   #224
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well from being taught and experience that website is an organization not a government site....
I tend to believe .gov rather than .org
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Old 08-29-2007, 10:41 PM   #225
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Now, see that's a bunch of crap and that's where these problems come from. The "Indian child Welfare Act" does NOT include a dispute between parents. I just went through that a few months ago with a very good friend of mine. This wasn't about her own children, but the BIA handles that and they talked to her and we got the ruling and she even got a whole book on the Act. I know for a fact from experience that this does not fall into this category under any circumstances. This act was just about protecting the Indian children who were taken from their parents for whatever reason, that they would be put into an Indian home and not that of another culture. And it MUST BE a Federally Recognized Tribe, not a 501c3 or anything like that. They won't even get into State Recognized Tribe issues. The BIA was going to step into the one that we were involved with, if she had needed them, but she didn't in the end and it was all taken care of. She is a member of a Federally Recognized Tribe. These guys should go to jail for kidnapping and if they took her accross state lines, anything that they can get them on including fraud for falsifying court documents. Oh, they are in big trouble.

FM--check with the Attorney General's office of that state. Because there are several who claim to be State Recognized here and I know of a few in other places and when you look on the State registry through the Attorney general's office, they are not there. Also, the DOI web site has a listing of Federally recognized Tribes and (I believe) a listing of State Recognized Tribes as well.
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Old 08-29-2007, 10:48 PM   #226
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Kidnapping/ICWA

Well hopefully there won't be too much of a backlash from this inccident when it comes to groups who are against ICWA. I can see them using this inccident as a way to further do away with ICWA. ICWA has been loosing ground in court over the years, each judge seems to define the act according to their understanding.
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Old 08-29-2007, 10:50 PM   #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FluteMaker View Post

theres another thread called the cherokee thread where a post contained a link.... State-Tribal Relations: Indian Tribe States

this page lists both of KKs favorite groups as being recognized by MO. so are they fakes or what...and ....would they quit being fakes if the recognition was on the level?
I had to post this.....this is a comment from a friend that went to that website....AIHSC

"The list contains errors, and pretty much validates
the lack of intelligence in all levels of government".....

anybody can make a website look like its official thats for sure.....
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Old 08-29-2007, 10:52 PM   #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timmy tiger View Post
Yes, I am a very loud mouth too. I have and am speaking up on alot of things and about alot of people. I do have people behind me and pushing me to keep me going (all in a good way). Just in the past month I have done a few things and set a few people on their ears. My one Uncle from Cherokee called me and said "Now, Timmy don't go beating up on those women this week." That's a joke, I don't hit anyone, but I do get mad and speak my mind wether they like it or not. What tends to happen with that is that they walk away and go off with a group of people and I get pointed at, and that's okay. They aren't smart enough for me not to hear about it and it does make me laugh. I must be making them nervous if they go that way. But they never come near me again---one did and she got nailed and I guess that she got told about it too.LOL That's what was told to us. But, the thing is is that what I am seeing with many of the ones that as long as you speak up TO them, they go underground and then totally disappear. It's not just informing the people, but that is very very important---had I not been informed, I couldn't have gone up against them myself. My family supports me on this, shoot actually they encourage me to do this and it's drilled into my head on (almost) a daily basis. I forget about patience as well, I think that it's a mother thing.LOL

But what about the ones who are learning from a true Elder of a Tribe, but they are not Indian and everyone knows it and they are out there running and talking ceramony? I know a few of these as well. Actually, I think that they are handling that one themselves as well. Many of the Indian's in this are are getting sick of hearing it from them to the point that everyone is about to puck, so no one goes near that person much anymore. But this, again, has been going on for years and until I knew for sure and started speaking up, you should have heard the people who kept coming to me telling me that this person was running a ceramony for them or something along those lines.

Now, Skillet, truethfully (not to be offensive---I am being polite) if we were to go the way that you are saying for Indians as with the Priests, what about all those "White" kids out there who dress black and Rap? I do agree that something needs to be done about peole who claim that they are something that they are not. But, my family teaches me that to embarrass them is even better. Because then they will go away and never come back. It really works. I have gone place where someone was there that we had a confrontation and that person was embarrassed and they left shortly after seeing me there and many people tell me that they don't see them much anymore. That might work for some.
Timmy the white kids who dress black and rap arent doing so to commit fraud...and i would think to anyone who was observing them,it would be easy to see that they were in fact white and not black...theres a legal case on the books in VA were a known fake testified as an indian expert witness in a court case concerning non-enrolled indians possessing feathers...the "expert witness"perjuried himself under oath and wasnt challenged because most people including law enforcement types dont have a clue about cards and legit enrollments...i spoke with the states attorney who handled the case and she confessed that they have no way of knowing or checking...i think too most people are some what timid or trying to be "PC" and dont want to challenge someone...now you might say well thats one case...yes but it also set precidents...his testimony was filled with blatant inaccuries and out right lies and hopefully he will be charged with perjury at the least and the case will be re-tried....if someones claiming to be indian and theres any doubt ,then yes people need to stand up and challenge them...if theyre legit then they have nothing to hide...
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Old 08-29-2007, 11:00 PM   #229
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The only thing that I've ever heard about the ICWA were complaints by non-federally recognized Indians who try to use them for their own gains. That is a problem, but the one thing that I was told and I still remember is this: "Federal trumps state."

We had the same issue with a person over Eagle Feather's and I got the DOI ruling on them and several Judges tried to make rulings on them, but they were stopped. It was said that it has to go to Federal Court or be dropped. That's the way that it is. Too many people are trying to claim a standing on things that really are not theirs to rule or judge or say anything on. I had no problem then or now of going to either Tribal Court or Federal Court of this issue and feel the same way about the ICWA. This was a different issue, but again someone tried to use something for their own gain and that's not right.

Again, these still tie into the fakes and frauds trying to get away with something. The latter was Indian and thought that he could get away with something just because he was dark skin and that didn't work either. He actually tried to throw skin color around and it back fired on him.
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Old 08-29-2007, 11:01 PM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kiowakat View Post
I had to post this.....this is a comment from a friend that went to that website....AIHSC

"The list contains errors, and pretty much validates
the lack of intelligence in all levels of government".....

anybody can make a website look like its official thats for sure.....
im wondering who provided the information to that website... this wikipedia entry lists NO state recognized tribes in MO...
List of State Recognized American Indian Tribal Entities - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
this link from the National Congress of American indians lists no state recognized tribe in mo:
National Congress of American Indians: State Recognized Indian Tribes
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Old 08-29-2007, 11:15 PM   #231
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Skillet:

Okay, you are right about the kids thing. This is true.

But you are misunderstanding me if (I mean this respectfully) you think that I would think that it was just one case. I was posting something as you were posting this. As with I don't know you or your experiences, you also don't know mine and I am very aware of some of these issues. I don't remember that particular case persay, but I do agree totally with you that he should get all that's coming to him including, Fraud. Now, was he saying that he was an Indian Expert because he was Indian or because he read a book? There are many people that the courts will put on the stand as "expert Witenesses" in a case just to make their case. Many of whom are teacher's or that. Not an expert in anyway.

Anyway, I have been involved with a couple of court cases, just as a suporter and I spoke up loudly in court when a judge made a decision that he had no right to make. The lawyer was affraid to say anything to him, but I kept pushing it.

I totally 100% agree with you that if a person is true to who they are then they have nothing to hide. I am one of those. I was in Cherokee for the 4th at the pow wow and was talking to a man from the OCN and he was asking me questions and I told him. He had me sit down with him and I did and I told him again. I'm not offended in anyway if someone questions me or my background, I say the way it is wether they like it or not. I'm not trying to hide anything or be anything that I am not. He looked at me and smiled and I told him that he was free to check out anything that I told him that he wants to. However, I will not put my personal business out on an open forum, it doesn't belong there.
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Old 08-29-2007, 11:15 PM   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timmy tiger View Post
The only thing that I've ever heard about the ICWA were complaints by non-federally recognized Indians who try to use them for their own gains. That is a problem, but the one thing that I was told and I still remember is this: "Federal trumps state."

We had the same issue with a person over Eagle Feather's and I got the DOI ruling on them and several Judges tried to make rulings on them, but they were stopped. It was said that it has to go to Federal Court or be dropped. That's the way that it is. Too many people are trying to claim a standing on things that really are not theirs to rule or judge or say anything on. I had no problem then or now of going to either Tribal Court or Federal Court of this issue and feel the same way about the ICWA. This was a different issue, but again someone tried to use something for their own gain and that's not right.

Again, these still tie into the fakes and frauds trying to get away with something. The latter was Indian and thought that he could get away with something just because he was dark skin and that didn't work either. He actually tried to throw skin color around and it back fired on him.
Religion, Arts and Crafts, Feathers etc...they all have loopholes in the government system, I believe not one was convicted, lots of slaps on the wrist...I deal with the Arts and Crafts Board and they say that they can only send out a letter, but shortly they will have agents....woohooo...but in the mean time a heafty fine to the dealer or vendor is good enough I guess ..lol..when you see vendors selling arts and crafts from china, or a vendor that is claiming native american products and you tend to believe (which I just ask) if they are not American Indians, we do have people that are non native that sell native products bought from legit American Indians but still the vendor claims no American Indian Heritage. we also have non native vendors that do, do the work themselves but again they don't clainm to be American Indian or sell their stuff as Native made.... call this number give name of person or place, phone number, address, website, report them and they have a file of these groups or individuals..
1-888-ART-FAKE
Department of the Interior Indian Arts and Crafts Board

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Old 08-29-2007, 11:17 PM   #233
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Tennessee/ICWA

IN THE COURT OF APPEALS OF TENNESSEE

WESTERN SECTION AT JACKSON





IN RE: JEFFREY THOMAS MORGAN )

)

) Shelby Chancery No. 106077 )

) Appeal No. 02A01-9608-CH-00206

)






APPEAL FROM THE CHANCERY COURT OF SHELBY COUNTY

AT MEMPHIS, TENNESSEE




THE HONORABLE D. J. ALISSANDRATOS, CHANCELLOR



For the Appellee, United Methodist For the Appellees,

Adoption Services: Adopting Couple:


Diana L. Schmied Kevin W. Weaver

Bartlett, Tennessee Cordova, Tennessee


For the Appellant, The Tohono For Jeffrey Thomas Morgan By His

O’odham Nation: Court-Appointed Attorney Ad Litem:


Mark E. Curry Kay F. Turner

Sells, Arizona Attorney Ad Litem

Memphis, Tennessee

Russell C. Winston

Memphis, Tennessee







AFFIRMED







HOLLY KIRBY LILLARD, J.




CONCUR:



W. FRANK CRAWFORD, P.J., W.S.



DAVID R. FARMER, J.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


OPINION

This is an adoption case in which the Tohono O’odham Indian Nation seeks to intervene pursuant to the federal Indian Child Welfare Act. The trial court denied the motion to intervene, finding the Act inapplicable under the “existing Indian family doctrine.” In a case of first impression in Tennessee, we affirm the decision of the trial court.

Jeffrey Thomas Morgan (“Jeffrey”), was born on July 13, 1994 to Gloria Saraficio Morgan, (“Mother”). Jeffrey was Mother’s fourth child. Both Jeffrey and Mother are non-domiciliary members of the Tohono O’odham Indian Nation (“Nation”), a federally recognized American Indian tribe. Mother has lived away from reservation lands for the past 15 years, and has lived in Dyersburg, Tennessee for the past twelve years. Mother was unmarried at the time of Jeffrey’s birth, but identified Jeffrey Manners, a Caucasian, as the father. No father, however, was named on the birth certificate or on the response to the Putative Father Registry request, and no one has claimed paternity or attempted to legitimate or acknowledge the child.
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Old 08-29-2007, 11:28 PM   #234
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KK--yahoooooooooooo, that's great. You know where I stand on that one--I told you that myself. That's wonderful and I might have a list for you on that one.

Weshomenom: actually that is pretty much the way that it happens. Here again, the mother didn't register her child as Indian but she claimed him "white" therefore, they will not do anything. The only way for someone to change that (from my experience) is for one of her blood relatives who IS a tribal member to come forward and claim that they wish to give this child a home and his heritage. Now, in doing that they will need to take the steps in order for them to Enroll him themselves in the Tribe. Until that time, the BIA and the FEDERAL gov. will not get involved because he is listed as "White". Again as KK said, there are loopholes in most of these and that's what's going on here. A family blood member must come forward for it to change.
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Old 08-29-2007, 11:41 PM   #235
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Manner/Morgan

What? I know it's confusing but the babie's name is jeffrey Morgan and the babie's father name is Jeffrey Manner who was caucasin. ICWA say it covers a child who is "eligible" to be enrolled. Even talking with someone who is well reversed in ICWA was shocked to hear about this case. ICWA should of been covered in this situation other than the courts defining it the way they want to instead of the original intent.


So when wannabes use the ICWA and then kidnap a child cuz they didn't get their way, this is amunition(sp) for the anti-ICWA people.
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Old 08-30-2007, 12:07 AM   #236
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Honestly Weshomenom I don't know who you talked to, but my friend who actually went through this for 6 months and I got the calls and emails about this the whole time that she was going throug it as to who she talked to and what was going on and I went on all the trips with her to court. The BIA will NOT get involved until the paperwork gets started, this was told to her. There is a particular branch that is something (I forget exactly who it is, she was a wreck) Inter State, or something along those lines. They will only step in if a family member wishes to come forward. I do know about other children from other Nations who go straight through the ICWA and no one who is a Non Tribal member can get custody of them. Again, the loopholes are crazy. In many of those cases they are in a State that is well versed (such as OK or DK) with the ICWA, but when you are in a state that is not, it gets crazy and there is a fight. Wethere anyone wants to face it or not, not all legal systems are aware of the legalities of Indian issues and you must call it to their attention and then many times the Judge acts as if he believes that these laws and rules don't apply to him until the Gov. steps in or the law is actually shown to him and then in the end (believe this or not---I got in a woman's face on this one and really got her mad---she walked away studdering--LOL) he acts as if it was his decision all along and that you didn't need that law in the first place. I about hurled. I could have screamed after all of that. So, yes, they don't all know. Anymore then Civil court judges know anything about Eagle Feather's and that case went on for almost 2-3 years and never should have even been there. They think that they are all knowing and the don't know Jack.

But is it the Judge who did this or the states version of Childrens Services (What ever that state calls it) fighting this?
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Old 08-30-2007, 07:11 PM   #237
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plain language

The point of the ICWA post was to show how federal laws continue to be twisted into something to suit the non-native world and how the actions of those who are not indian who try to use the very same laws to benefit their agenda will give those who are anti-indian in any way the cases to show why something that is for indians should be reduced to nothing.

Who cares if someone wants to say their great great great granny is an Indian but stay to heck out of the way when it comes to federal/state/local laws, aid and heritage-history of those who are actual Indians.
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Old 09-03-2007, 09:49 PM   #238
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Weshomenom--Okay, you were talking about the kidnapping, but then you went on to the other case about the child who wasn't enrolled and that's the confusion. The child who was kidnapped, those people should be in prison. Someone needs to get ahold of the actual tribe (if she is Tribally enrolled through her mother, if not---that's fraud and should be reported to the BIA and DOI) and then it should be taken care of from there. The other one where the young boy wasn't enrolled, well that's another and totally different story. The tribe needed to be notified and it should have gone that way.
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Old 09-03-2007, 09:58 PM   #239
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Wesh--I agree with you about running as well. If someone isn't going to stand up for who they claim that they are for the right then they need to just shut up. That's my opinion.

I spent the weekend with my Family and I was talking to my one Uncle and I told him about a conversation that I had with another person. This is my question: "All these people who are claiming to be Indian right now. If the gov. walked in the door tomorrow how many do you think would still claim to be Indian?" I'm right here if they want to come and get me. And I was willing to go to Federal or Tribal court over a fool who dishonored Eagle Feather's. His attorney said to (all of us--not just me) "If this matter doesn't get settled now. Then we have no other choice but to take it to Federal Court." I threw my hands up in the air and yelled "Let's go. I'm ready" I thought that she was going to mess herself. I had the DOI rules and Regs about Eagle Feather's in my hand at that moment and knew that he had violated the law. I don't care who it is or who they think that they are, but these laws are to protect the Indian people, not to be used to control and dominate people just because you get mad at them or want their attention. He tried to take it 1st. through domestic relations court, then civil court (where he put a price tag on the feathers) and then through county court. He was finally told that he either had to take it to Federal Court where it belonged or drop it. This was his own doing, no one did this person wrong in any way, but in his own selfish warped mind.
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Old 09-06-2007, 02:46 PM   #240
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heard thru the grapevine that CNO lost it's housing fund.......if the government can do this to their tribe that means our tribes are in line for the same thing......anybody?
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