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Old 08-28-2007, 02:17 AM   #121
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Now, there are many people who have different outlooks on things. You said that you wanted to defind some of the people that you know. If they are truely who they are, why do you feel the need to defend them? I'm not trying to be offensive and you do not owe me an explaination, this was a question for you to answer for yourself. I don't feel the need to defend myself or anyone else who I believe is true to who they are and where they come from.

Let me ask you another question, can these people whose other relatives are on the rolls, can they name them and someone look them up and find the right ones? You see there are so many differences that it is more then most think.

There are those who know who their ancestors are and the names and the dates. So if they are asked by a person from either of the Cherokee nations that they can tell them. Many times once the person has a name and knows a relationship, it's then okay, in most of the cases that I have seen.

But then you have those who will say that they are Cherokee, but can't give you a name of an ancestor or a place that was ever truely Cherokee territory and that's where some problems are.

Then you have those who find a last name (like their's or might even be the same as their's) and they try to put the wrong pieces of the puzzle together to show that it is their and not look for what's real and that gets everyone confused and that's another problem.

But then everyone is different and there are those who totally believe that if you don't have a piece of paper stating it, then you are not it. But there are those who look and say "hey wait a minute". It's personal choices and opinions and everyone is entitled to theirs. We agree to disagree.

There were also many people who were taken from their people: divorce, government relocations, boarding schools, Indian Agencies and much more. A good example of this is the Carlisle Indian School: on the 1910 census record of the school all the children were listed as being "white" not "Indian".

With the last two groups that I had mentioned above, I have personally seen, they tend to do things in the way of "I'll make it up as I go and no one will know the difference" or they will learn from someone not of that nation and they take several different nations beliefs and throw them together to make it one big mish-mosh and that doesn't work either and they try to teach others based on all of that and that's when things go crazy. Or they have the "I read a book syndrome" or the "I got it off the internet" and that's a big problem as well.

There are many people who are decendents and are true to who they are, but that's not what's being talked about here really. It's the fake ones who go out just to get something out of it and don't really want to become a part of people who are real and who they have been for generations.
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Old 08-28-2007, 07:28 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by CHEROSAGE View Post
I have a problem with the new agers wannabeeeez telling me about their gggggggrandmother who was a Cherokee Princess. But, I want to defend some families who are truly NDN but can't be enrolled. I have known of families with Aunts/Uncles or Cousins (full family) and they can't enroll because Grandma/Grandpa didn't want or just didn't. Since the Dawes Roll was closed no one outside of these rolls were not able to enroll. Another reason mwy have been that the person enrolling may have lived outsied of the district. Ther were many reasons why a person wasn't enrolled.

Now many unenrolled Cherokee descendents are coming out of the woodwork because the laws in MO were changed in the late 1970's. It is no longer illegal for us to live in and own property in MO.

I have a gg...grandfather who signed the 1895 Cherokee Constitution of Moberly MO along with many notable Cherokees such as RedBird Smith who was also of relations just on another side of the family. I have tried to study about some of these Cherokees who aren't enrolled Cherokee. I found out that some of these groups(families) went to Iowa, Texas, Mexico, California, and even Origon not to mention the Cherokee strip and areas inside of OK. Then How about the Family groups who hid out in the Appalacian mountains, Hills of Tennessee, and Kentucky etc. Didn't these people finally get recognised as Cherokees by the Feds? I think that the Cherokees were able to assymilate well enough into any local society to be accepted, yet stay Cherokee. We have been so prolific and wide spread that many other Tribal members just can't understand and don't seem to want to accept the fact that there are actually more Cherokee descendants than in any other Tribe. We are able to intermarry and infiltrate other societies to create a greater and more numerous Tribal membership. And able to servive the tribulations of history.

How many of us are intermarried and/or descended of other Tribes? I know that I am descended of several different Tribes. I have been told of trials and tribulations within my family and other family.
I also know alot of non registered Indians due their requirements to meet tribal enrollment but they are NOT trying to say they hid out and now want to revive a tribe, clan, band, whatever they want to call their fabricated groups, didn't say there wasn't Indians that came thru but cherosage there are NO TRIBES STATE OR FEDERAL, headquarters in Missouri, if it was a law then why did they hide?...it a fabricated story to serve their personal gain... and show me the law LMAO my mom moved here in the 50's, in fact in 1957 a center for the relocation act was put into effect that get Indians off the rez, move them to urban areas to prosper and she had no problems in St. Louis, are you saying they ignored their own law??...and I heard of Indians living here before she got here...they didn't hide anything....story just don't add up, not saying they aren't Indian but a whole tribe hid out, held their "documents in a public school" come on give us more credit than that LOL....they all stop at the 1817 treaty with Missouri, not going to the truth of 1832 that a treaty made all Cherokee relinquish their rights to any land in Missouri, and move to tribal lands in Oklahoma, now the ones that didn't go, and I asked the CNO and The Keetowahs of Oklahoma and they say that they turned their backs on the tribe, so If it was the ggreat grandma or grandpas choice then who are these people to question their elders?....Missouri probably will always stay a non tribal state, these people that are "claiming" are also getting what can help legit Indians groups that are in Missouri that do help all tribes not just "their own"....seen it first hand...so what your saying is a bunch of non registered people can run around, claiming and taking from the legit Indians and innocent tax payers??, that they can over run a tribal card or documents??...my opinion it won't happen....
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Old 08-28-2007, 08:42 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by CHEROSAGE View Post
I have a problem with the new agers wannabeeeez telling me about their gggggggrandmother who was a Cherokee Princess. But, I want to defend some families who are truly NDN but can't be enrolled. I have known of families with Aunts/Uncles or Cousins (full family) and they can't enroll because Grandma/Grandpa didn't want or just didn't. Since the Dawes Roll was closed no one outside of these rolls were not able to enroll. Another reason mwy have been that the person enrolling may have lived outsied of the district. Ther were many reasons why a person wasn't enrolled.

Now many unenrolled Cherokee descendents are coming out of the woodwork because the laws in MO were changed in the late 1970's. It is no longer illegal for us to live in and own property in MO.

I have a gg...grandfather who signed the 1895 Cherokee Constitution of Moberly MO along with many notable Cherokees such as RedBird Smith who was also of relations just on another side of the family. I have tried to study about some of these Cherokees who aren't enrolled Cherokee. I found out that some of these groups(families) went to Iowa, Texas, Mexico, California, and even Origon not to mention the Cherokee strip and areas inside of OK. Then How about the Family groups who hid out in the Appalacian mountains, Hills of Tennessee, and Kentucky etc. Didn't these people finally get recognised as Cherokees by the Feds? I think that the Cherokees were able to assymilate well enough into any local society to be accepted, yet stay Cherokee. We have been so prolific and wide spread that many other Tribal members just can't understand and don't seem to want to accept the fact that there are actually more Cherokee descendants than in any other Tribe. We are able to intermarry and infiltrate other societies to create a greater and more numerous Tribal membership. And able to servive the tribulations of history.

How many of us are intermarried and/or descended of other Tribes? I know that I am descended of several different Tribes. I have been told of trials and tribulations within my family and other family.
I know there was alot of that then and yes I know there are Cherokees that are living in Mo and Arkansas
But for every One Legit one that can recite Family history there seems to be 50 that cant
And they also seem to tell everybody that will listen that they have Cherokee blood longggggggggggg ago
Sheesh
That is the problem
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:02 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by CHEROSAGE View Post
I have a problem with the new agers wannabeeeez telling me about their gggggggrandmother who was a Cherokee Princess. But, I want to defend some families who are truly NDN but can't be enrolled. I have known of families with Aunts/Uncles or Cousins (full family) and they can't enroll because Grandma/Grandpa didn't want or just didn't. Since the Dawes Roll was closed no one outside of these rolls were not able to enroll. Another reason mwy have been that the person enrolling may have lived outsied of the district. Ther were many reasons why a person wasn't enrolled.

Now many unenrolled Cherokee descendents are coming out of the woodwork because the laws in MO were changed in the late 1970's. It is no longer illegal for us to live in and own property in MO.

I have a gg...grandfather who signed the 1895 Cherokee Constitution of Moberly MO along with many notable Cherokees such as RedBird Smith who was also of relations just on another side of the family. I have tried to study about some of these Cherokees who aren't enrolled Cherokee. I found out that some of these groups(families) went to Iowa, Texas, Mexico, California, and even Origon not to mention the Cherokee strip and areas inside of OK. Then How about the Family groups who hid out in the Appalacian mountains, Hills of Tennessee, and Kentucky etc. Didn't these people finally get recognised as Cherokees by the Feds? I think that the Cherokees were able to assymilate well enough into any local society to be accepted, yet stay Cherokee. We have been so prolific and wide spread that many other Tribal members just can't understand and don't seem to want to accept the fact that there are actually more Cherokee descendants than in any other Tribe. We are able to intermarry and infiltrate other societies to create a greater and more numerous Tribal membership. And able to servive the tribulations of history.

How many of us are intermarried and/or descended of other Tribes? I know that I am descended of several different Tribes. I have been told of trials and tribulations within my family and other family.
Good points, Cherosage. I am descended from 2 tribes, Chickasaw and Cherokee. The Chickasaw side of the family enrolled and I can claim membership through them. My Cherokee maternal great-grandmother, though, was born and raised in Texas and not enrolled. Her family was originally from North Carolina, and some of her cousins were enrolled, but not her immediate family.

There are, I'm sure, any number or reasons why Cherokees seem more numerous than other tribes, wannabe organizations aside. For example, by 1898 there were only a total of 4,230 Chickasaws by blood listed on the Dawes Rolls, compared with (according to 1 source) over 36,000 Cherokees. This would naturally translate in a much greater number of descendents over time.
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:56 AM   #125
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I also know alot of non registered Indians due their requirements to meet tribal enrollment but they are NOT trying to say they hid out and now want to revive a tribe, clan, band, whatever they want to call their fabricated groups, didn't say there wasn't Indians that came thru but cherosage there are NO TRIBES STATE OR FEDERAL, headquarters in Missouri, if it was a law then why did they hide?...it a fabricated story to serve their personal gain... and show me the law LMAO my mom moved here in the 50's, in fact in 1957 a center for the relocation act was put into effect that get Indians off the rez, move them to urban areas to prosper and she had no problems in St. Louis, are you saying they ignored their own law??...and I heard of Indians living here before she got here...they didn't hide anything....story just don't add up, not saying they aren't Indian but a whole tribe hid out, held their "documents in a public school" come on give us more credit than that LOL....they all stop at the 1817 treaty with Missouri, not going to the truth of 1832 that a treaty made all Cherokee relinquish their rights to any land in Missouri, and move to tribal lands in Oklahoma, now the ones that didn't go, and I asked the CNO and The Keetowahs of Oklahoma and they say that they turned their backs on the tribe, so If it was the ggreat grandma or grandpas choice then who are these people to question their elders?....Missouri probably will always stay a non tribal state, these people that are "claiming" are also getting what can help legit Indians groups that are in Missouri that do help all tribes not just "their own"....seen it first hand...so what your saying is a bunch of non registered people can run around, claiming and taking from the legit Indians and innocent tax payers??, that they can over run a tribal card or documents??...my opinion it won't happen....
i know alot of the so called family historoes are bogus. i do believe that alot of people claim thier families hid out just heard the story from someone else and said 'hey,i like that.i'll use it too'. but its not uncommon for states to have ignored what was on the books. look back through the civil rights movement. the school desegregation issue wouldnt have been an issue if states had just enrolled black students in white public schools and offered an education of equal quality. blacks had the right to vote long before some states allowed it to happen and many simmilar issues with ndns happened the same way. i know in west virginia it wasnt untill 1964 ndns could leaglly owns land, 1973 before virginia put native american on birth certificates.1970 before virginia allowed inter racial marriages.just because its the law doesnt mean its followed by either the leaders or the lead.
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:57 AM   #126
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I also know alot of non registered Indians due their requirements to meet tribal enrollment but they are NOT trying to say they hid out and now want to revive a tribe, clan, band, whatever they want to call their fabricated groups, didn't say there wasn't Indians that came thru but cherosage there are NO TRIBES STATE OR FEDERAL, headquarters in Missouri, if it was a law then why did they hide?...it a fabricated story to serve their personal gain... and show me the law LMAO my mom moved here in the 50's, in fact in 1957 a center for the relocation act was put into effect that get Indians off the rez, move them to urban areas to prosper and she had no problems in St. Louis, are you saying they ignored their own law??...and I heard of Indians living here before she got here...they didn't hide anything....story just don't add up, not saying they aren't Indian but a whole tribe hid out, held their "documents in a public school" come on give us more credit than that LOL....they all stop at the 1817 treaty with Missouri, not going to the truth of 1832 that a treaty made all Cherokee relinquish their rights to any land in Missouri, and move to tribal lands in Oklahoma, now the ones that didn't go, and I asked the CNO and The Keetowahs of Oklahoma and they say that they turned their backs on the tribe, so If it was the ggreat grandma or grandpas choice then who are these people to question their elders?....Missouri probably will always stay a non tribal state, these people that are "claiming" are also getting what can help legit Indians groups that are in Missouri that do help all tribes not just "their own"....seen it first hand...so what your saying is a bunch of non registered people can run around, claiming and taking from the legit Indians and innocent tax payers??, that they can over run a tribal card or documents??...my opinion it won't happen....
if they arent recognized what is there to get that they arent already entitled to as american citizens?
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:59 AM   #127
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i was also wondering what is the acid test for wannabes? i know theres hundreds of unrecognized groups out there, it seems like everyone posting on this thred,myself included,has been approached by at least one. but whats the hard core acid test to conclusively lable a group as wannabe? i know the actions by the group metioned earlier in this thread are pretty bad,someones goin to hell for that stuff, but what about the innoquous guys who just lay low, really are of like herritage and culture getting together to help eachother improve thier lives and dont ask anyone for anything?
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Old 08-28-2007, 04:33 PM   #128
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if they arent recognized what is there to get that they arent already entitled to as american citizens?
well with 501c3 corporations (non profit status) they can get donations and grants, they are entitle to whatever these 501c3 groups are entitled to, food, housing, education...$178,000.00 grant went to the middle of Missouri , to a bogus tribe, and no American Indian benefitted from that...is that fair??...this same group was given grant money from the ANA (american Indian assoc) to become a recognized tribe, but that has now stopped this year finally...it all about how can they drain the system and make it worst for legit non profit groups....

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Old 08-28-2007, 05:40 PM   #129
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oops lol

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Old 08-28-2007, 05:41 PM   #130
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i need a mod to delete these two post LOL

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Old 08-28-2007, 05:44 PM   #131
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I had this thrown in my face about "well we'll just see what the DNA test says" LOL...this was posted in another thread...tell me your thoughts??....

by Eric Beckenhauer in Stanford Law Review.

Attempts to Genetically Define Indians - and Native American Reaction

Unsurprisingly, attempts to genetically define Native Americans have garnered the attention of not just anthropologists and geneticists. At least one Indian tribe seeking federal recognition has tried to use DNA technology to establish a genetic link to other tribes. And, in response, at least one state government has considered legislation that would enable hopeful Indians to "conclusively" establish their ethnic identities.

A. Vermont House Bill 809

The Western Mohegans, a band of about 330 Indians living on ancestral lands along the border of New York and Vermont, once declined to sign a recognition treaty with the U.S. government. Now seeking state and federal [*185] recognition, the Mohegans - like others in their shoes - have found that they lack adequate genealogical documentation to prove their ancestry to the government, and have been denied status as a recognized tribe - and the benefits that accompany such recognition. In an attempt to establish a genetic link to the Mohican Indians of Wisconsin, a federally recognized tribe to which they claim ancestral ties, the Mohegans privately contracted to undergo DNA testing, the results of which they claim demonstrate such a genealogical relationship. To further their case for recognition, and to help other Indians who lack genealogical documentation, the Mohegans lobbied Vermont legislators to endorse the reliability of DNA testing as a means of establishing ethnic identity.n96

In the Vermont Assembly, sympathetic Representative Fred Maslack in early 2000 sponsored a bill that would have authorized the state health commissioner to develop standards by which DNA testing could be used to "conclusively" identify those of Native American ancestry, at their request and personal expense.n97 In support of H. 809, Rep. Maslack commented, "It makes sense to me that science should have the last word," adding that, in the future, "this could be the definitive method." n98 It seems that few of his colleagues agreed: The bill, referred to the Committee on Health and Welfare in February 2000, has given him "nothing but grief" and is unlikely to be reintroduced. n99

Rep. Maslack might be well advised to let his bill die quietly, for two reasons. First, the science supporting the bill is, at best, sketchy. The measure would limit analysis to the DNA variants that code for the human leukocyte antigens (HLAs), proteins situated on the surface of white blood cells that mediate the immune response. Because of their direct relationship to immunity and disease, HLAs have been studied extensively to uncover correlations between particular HLA variants and specific diseases.n100 However, HLA testing has not been successfully used to define ethnic groups in genetic terms. Essentially, this is because HLA DNA, though highly variable, is not much different than other polymorphisms examined by variant analysis: Although certain HLA variants may be more common in some subpopulations than in [*186] others, unless a particular variant is unique to one population, it can yield no conclusive determinations about ethnicity.n101 Indeed, Dr. Patrick Beatty, who has studied the frequencies of HLA variants among North Americans as part of the National Marrow Donor Program, notes: "I know of no HLA markers which are unique to Native Americans, or for that matter, any other major racial [or] ethnic category." n102

Second, aside from the lackluster response of his Assembly colleagues to the proposed legislation, reaction from the community can fairly be characterized as nothing short of outrage. The Vermont Governor's Advisory Commission on Native American Affairs minced no words in its attack on H. 809, calling it "racist, unethical, and immoral."n103 Journalists warned that the proposal smacked of eugenics. n104 But by far, the loudest cries came from Native American activists. Their objections to Rep. Maslack's proposal - and to genetic testing in general - are surveyed in the balance of this Part.

B. Native American Objections to Genetic Definitions of Ethnicity

Rep. Maslack's proposal struck a chord with outspoken members of the Indian community. Their reactions, though often visceral rather than reasoned, ranged from confusion to anger, and highlight some of the most troubling aspects of Rep. Maslack's proposal and of the application of genetic testing to Indian populations in general. Indian objections to genetic testing are generally threefold: (1) The term "Indian" represents a cultural identity that defies biological definition; (2) genetic descriptions of the term "Indian" threaten to usurp tribal sovereignty; and (3) condoning the use of genetic testing in this context will legitimize its abusive use in other contexts.

1. "Indian" is a culture - not a genotype.

Native Americans commonly argue that Indian status should be a cultural determination, not a biological one. Ethnic groups, they insist, are merely social constructs, and we must avoid reinforcing the assumption that ethnic identity is biologically determined. In this struggle, Native Americans have garnered widespread support from both activists and scientists. The Vermont Governor's Advisory Commission on Native American Affairs has warned that genetic testing threatens to reduce being Indian to a "racial type," instead of a "spiritual [*187] identity."n105 Morris Foster, an anthropologist at the University of Oklahoma, cautions that "it is absurd to try to define what is essentially a social identity by using biological characteristics." n106 And one researcher with the International Institute for Indigenous Resource Management in Denver suggests that scientists and policymakers who propose genetic testing as a means of ethnic identification "equate culture with race and assume that the characteristics of both can be detected biologically." n107

However, insofar as genetic testing is criticized for attempting to define a social identity using biological characteristics, it differs remarkably little from the use of blood quantum standards: both are undeniably biological measures. In addition, such objections largely reflect confused terminology, and highlight the need to exercise caution with hot-button words like ethnicity, race, and culture.

Because it lacked careful language, H. 809 fueled the fears of Indian tribes. By proposing that the results of DNA-HLA testing would serve as "conclusive proof" of Native American ancestry, and further, that test results would "determine the identity of an individual as a Native American,"n108 Rep. Maslack erred in suggesting that ethnic identity could be determined by genetic testing alone. However, this was probably not the bill's intent.

Under the commonly accepted premise that race and ethnicity are social constructs, not biological ones, no serious scientist (and hopefully, no legislator) would conflate a genetic inquiry into an individual's ancestral roots with a description of his present-day cultural ties. The DYS199 mutation does not make a man Indian - it merely suggests that one of his progenitors had indigenous roots. Further, even if DNA evidence could reveal that an individual is a full-blooded Indian, he is only politically Indian - and thus eligible for federal benefits - if granted citizenship by a federally recognized tribe.

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(continued):

2. Genetic definitions of "Indian" will usurp tribal sovereignty.

The autonomy to determine their own citizenship requirements instills in Indian tribes a sense of self-determination that is closely guarded. Genetic techniques for authenticating Indian heritage, whether promulgated by scientists or sanctioned by state governments, threaten to displace tribal definitions of citizenship with genetic ones, and usurp the sovereignty of tribes. Indeed, there is a common fear that by acquiescence to genetic definitions, tribes will eventually relinquish the right to define their populations. However, such a consequence seems unlikely, given the well-settled principle that Indian [*188] tribes, as sovereign governments, have the inherent power to establish their own membership criteria. This principle of self-determination has been specifically recognized by the Supreme Court, which has noted that a tribe's right to define its own membership criteria "has long been recognized as central to its existence as an independent political community."n109 This principle seems unlikely to be challenged.

There is related concern that, although H. 809 offered genetic testing as an alternative method for establishing heritage, such testing may eventually become the sole method for doing so; thus an individual lacking the typical Native American genetic markers would be denied classification as Indian. Some of this worry stems from a simple misunderstanding of the proposal. One observer noted that the "ambiguity of the [proposed] legislation resulted in misinterpretations that the legislation was meant to require DNA analysis to prove an individual's tribal affiliation."n110 Other commentators feared that the alternative might evolve into a requirement, noting that although "the current proposal does not contain wording that would negate other acceptable methods of identifying one's heritage, future application could do just that." n111 This concern belies a misconception of the power of established methods of genetic analysis, and a lack of recognition of their limitations. Even the most accurate methods of genetic analysis of ethnicity - Y-chromosome and mtDNA private polymorphism analysis - cannot conclusively disprove Native American ancestry. And, despite their promise, statistical methods such as EAE will probably not be able to render more than an imperfect estimate of the degree of ethnic ancestry. The possibilities of genetics are not without limits, and these weaknesses will prevent genetic testing from becoming the sole indicator of ethnicity.

3. Condoning genetic testing in this context legitimizes scientific inquiry, and its consequences, in other contexts.

Several commentators have suggested that Indians have both a general aversion to the methods of scientific inquiry and a fear of its consequences. With respect to the methodology, observers have noted that this anti-science sentiment stems partly from feelings of intimidation engendered by the complexity of technology, partly from fear that scientific analysis is prone to error, and partly from traditionalist attitudes that characterize technology as the "anti-traditional, anti-spiritual ... earth-destroying work of the White man."n112

[*189] Further, the potential negative consequences of scientific inquiry have led many Indian communities to fear genetic research, and to distrust the motives of scientists. Anger abounds toward research perceived as an attempt to provide contrary answers to strongly held beliefs about the origin of Indian tribes, particularly when such questions are posed not by indigenous populations themselves, but by researchers. The assumption that Indian ancestry "will be "discovered' and scientifically "answered' is insulting to groups who already have strong beliefs regarding their origins."n113

Given the historically poor treatment of Native Americans at the hands of the U.S. government, these fears are not unfounded. Indeed, since traditional Indian claims to property - and to land, especially - have often been sacrificed in the name of progress, perhaps their skepticism of modern genetic testing is justified. Specifically, fears that revisionist theories of indigenous migration may contradict settled Indian territorial claims are likely to resonate with many Indians. These are fears to which scientists should be sympathetic.

However, far from evincing sympathy, scientists have an unfortunate history of marginalizing the "traditionalist" objections of Native Americans to research on their soil and ancestral remains; the recent controversy over the remains of "Kennewick Man" comes to mind. In 1996, researchers unearthed a set of human remains near Kennewick, Washington, that radiocarbon dating estimated to be 9000 years old. Challenging the power of Indians to claim the bones of their ancestors, a group of scientists sued to enjoin the return of the remains, alleging an interference with their "constitutional right to scientific inquiry."n114 So began a five-year legal battle, still not fully resolved, over the disposition of the Kennewick Man remains. n115 The following statement, issued by one tribe claiming ownership of the remains, illustrates well the tension between traditional Indian culture and modern scientific thought:



Our elders have taught us that once a body goes in the ground, it is meant to stay there until the end of time... . We do not believe that our people migrated here from another continent, as the scientists do... . Some scientists say that if this individual is not studied further, we, as Indians, will be destroying [*190] evidence of our history. We already know our history. It is passed on to us through our elders and through our religious practices.n116

When scientific inquiry frequently results in "truths" that contradict their traditions and religion, Indian tribes are naturally wary of condoning genetic research. Further, should they accept its validity for authenticating ancestral ties, they may be hard-pressed to reject its conclusions with respect to migration and evolution. Both scientists and policymakers should be responsive to these concerns.

Conclusion

Whether seeking tribal membership or federal recognition, welfare benefits or a sense of belonging, Indians in the United States face a bumpy road - one that is not becoming smoother. Federal acknowledgement is increasingly rare. Blood quantum requirements threaten to make enrollment plummet over the next century. And, for unenrolled Indians and Indians enrolled in unrecognized tribes, a lack of political affiliation can leave them feeling "less Indian."

Despite its mythical promises, genetic testing is no panacea. The reality is that genetic testing is of limited utility as an ethnic identifier: Because of the patterns of genetic inheritance, even the most advanced methods of genetic testing will fail to identify a huge proportion of those with Indian ancestry. And, the degree of Indian ancestry of those positively marked by rare polymorphisms is currently impossible to determine by genetic tests alone. Considering also the objections of Native Americans and the cost of genetic testing, one is left wondering whether, on balance, the prospect of genetic testing does Indians more harm than good.

However, though not useful as absolute indicators of ethnicity, genetic tests like mtDNA and Y-chromosome analysis will continue to uncover useful pieces of genealogical information that - in conjunction with anthropological studies and descendancy records - can help flesh out the nooks of Indian history. But to preserve and nurture even this measure of utility, scientists and legislators must tread lightly, use careful language, and be sensitive to the concerns of the ethnic and cultural groups they are trying to help.
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Old 08-28-2007, 05:52 PM   #133
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i need a mod to delete these two post LOL
did it to me too, thats why the last two of my posts were edited, i figured id make the best of it
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Old 08-28-2007, 06:03 PM   #134
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i didnt read the whole thing, i admit it. but i had been told a long time ago when the idea of dna testing to establish herritage was first being lauded as the holy grail of 'trace you ndn roots' that it wouldnt work. the best one could hope for was to be consistant with a known sample and that there was no way a dna test could say for sure,without a doubt that a person was cherokee, shawnee, lakota or what have you. only that they were or were not consistant with dna of a known genetic control group.
and still they advertise this, even on pw.com ive seen ads for it
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Old 08-28-2007, 06:12 PM   #135
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well with 501c3 corporations (non profit status) they can get donations and grants, they are entitle to whatever these 501c3 groups are entitled to, food, housing, education...$178,000.00 grant went to the middle of Missouri , to a bogus tribe, and no American Indian benefitted from that...is that fair??...this same group was given grant money from the ANA (american Indian assoc) to become a recognized tribe, but that has now stopped this year finally...it all about how can they drain the system and make it worst for legit non profit groups....
really? whered they get the 178K from,i got a mortgage payment commin up

but seriously,most of that they can get just for being american, anyone can apply for grant money claiming anything they want. im a paint contractor and i used to joke about applying for a grant to study why women put so dernd many nail holes in wall (i get tired of patching them before i paint) and ive been told if i sent the papers to the right office id probably get it.
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Old 08-28-2007, 06:29 PM   #136
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I had this thrown in my face about "well we'll just see what the DNA test says" LOL...this was posted in another thread...tell me your thoughts??....

by Eric Beckenhauer in Stanford Law Review.

Attempts to Genetically Define Indians - and Native American Reaction

Unsurprisingly, attempts to genetically define Native Americans have garnered the attention of not just anthropologists and geneticists. At least one Indian tribe seeking federal recognition has tried to use DNA technology to establish a genetic link to other tribes. And, in response, at least one state government has considered legislation that would enable hopeful Indians to "conclusively" establish their ethnic identities.

A. Vermont House Bill 809

The Western Mohegans, a band of about 330 Indians living on ancestral lands along the border of New York and Vermont, once declined to sign a recognition treaty with the U.S. government. Now seeking state and federal [*185] recognition, the Mohegans - like others in their shoes - have found that they lack adequate genealogical documentation to prove their ancestry to the government, and have been denied status as a recognized tribe - and the benefits that accompany such recognition. In an attempt to establish a genetic link to the Mohican Indians of Wisconsin, a federally recognized tribe to which they claim ancestral ties, the Mohegans privately contracted to undergo DNA testing, the results of which they claim demonstrate such a genealogical relationship. To further their case for recognition, and to help other Indians who lack genealogical documentation, the Mohegans lobbied Vermont legislators to endorse the reliability of DNA testing as a means of establishing ethnic identity.n96

In the Vermont Assembly, sympathetic Representative Fred Maslack in early 2000 sponsored a bill that would have authorized the state health commissioner to develop standards by which DNA testing could be used to "conclusively" identify those of Native American ancestry, at their request and personal expense.n97 In support of H. 809, Rep. Maslack commented, "It makes sense to me that science should have the last word," adding that, in the future, "this could be the definitive method." n98 It seems that few of his colleagues agreed: The bill, referred to the Committee on Health and Welfare in February 2000, has given him "nothing but grief" and is unlikely to be reintroduced. n99

Rep. Maslack might be well advised to let his bill die quietly, for two reasons. First, the science supporting the bill is, at best, sketchy. The measure would limit analysis to the DNA variants that code for the human leukocyte antigens (HLAs), proteins situated on the surface of white blood cells that mediate the immune response. Because of their direct relationship to immunity and disease, HLAs have been studied extensively to uncover correlations between particular HLA variants and specific diseases.n100 However, HLA testing has not been successfully used to define ethnic groups in genetic terms. Essentially, this is because HLA DNA, though highly variable, is not much different than other polymorphisms examined by variant analysis: Although certain HLA variants may be more common in some subpopulations than in [*186] others, unless a particular variant is unique to one population, it can yield no conclusive determinations about ethnicity.n101 Indeed, Dr. Patrick Beatty, who has studied the frequencies of HLA variants among North Americans as part of the National Marrow Donor Program, notes: "I know of no HLA markers which are unique to Native Americans, or for that matter, any other major racial [or] ethnic category." n102

Second, aside from the lackluster response of his Assembly colleagues to the proposed legislation, reaction from the community can fairly be characterized as nothing short of outrage. The Vermont Governor's Advisory Commission on Native American Affairs minced no words in its attack on H. 809, calling it "racist, unethical, and immoral."n103 Journalists warned that the proposal smacked of eugenics. n104 But by far, the loudest cries came from Native American activists. Their objections to Rep. Maslack's proposal - and to genetic testing in general - are surveyed in the balance of this Part.

B. Native American Objections to Genetic Definitions of Ethnicity

Rep. Maslack's proposal struck a chord with outspoken members of the Indian community. Their reactions, though often visceral rather than reasoned, ranged from confusion to anger, and highlight some of the most troubling aspects of Rep. Maslack's proposal and of the application of genetic testing to Indian populations in general. Indian objections to genetic testing are generally threefold: (1) The term "Indian" represents a cultural identity that defies biological definition; (2) genetic descriptions of the term "Indian" threaten to usurp tribal sovereignty; and (3) condoning the use of genetic testing in this context will legitimize its abusive use in other contexts.

1. "Indian" is a culture - not a genotype.

Native Americans commonly argue that Indian status should be a cultural determination, not a biological one. Ethnic groups, they insist, are merely social constructs, and we must avoid reinforcing the assumption that ethnic identity is biologically determined. In this struggle, Native Americans have garnered widespread support from both activists and scientists. The Vermont Governor's Advisory Commission on Native American Affairs has warned that genetic testing threatens to reduce being Indian to a "racial type," instead of a "spiritual [*187] identity."n105 Morris Foster, an anthropologist at the University of Oklahoma, cautions that "it is absurd to try to define what is essentially a social identity by using biological characteristics." n106 And one researcher with the International Institute for Indigenous Resource Management in Denver suggests that scientists and policymakers who propose genetic testing as a means of ethnic identification "equate culture with race and assume that the characteristics of both can be detected biologically." n107

However, insofar as genetic testing is criticized for attempting to define a social identity using biological characteristics, it differs remarkably little from the use of blood quantum standards: both are undeniably biological measures. In addition, such objections largely reflect confused terminology, and highlight the need to exercise caution with hot-button words like ethnicity, race, and culture.

Because it lacked careful language, H. 809 fueled the fears of Indian tribes. By proposing that the results of DNA-HLA testing would serve as "conclusive proof" of Native American ancestry, and further, that test results would "determine the identity of an individual as a Native American,"n108 Rep. Maslack erred in suggesting that ethnic identity could be determined by genetic testing alone. However, this was probably not the bill's intent.

Under the commonly accepted premise that race and ethnicity are social constructs, not biological ones, no serious scientist (and hopefully, no legislator) would conflate a genetic inquiry into an individual's ancestral roots with a description of his present-day cultural ties. The DYS199 mutation does not make a man Indian - it merely suggests that one of his progenitors had indigenous roots. Further, even if DNA evidence could reveal that an individual is a full-blooded Indian, he is only politically Indian - and thus eligible for federal benefits - if granted citizenship by a federally recognized tribe.
Well , Hmmmmmmmm!
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Old 08-28-2007, 06:30 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by kiowakat View Post
I had this thrown in my face about "well we'll just see what the DNA test says" LOL...this was posted in another thread...tell me your thoughts??....

by Eric Beckenhauer in Stanford Law Review.

Attempts to Genetically Define Indians - and Native American Reaction

Unsurprisingly, attempts to genetically define Native Americans have garnered the attention of not just anthropologists and geneticists. At least one Indian tribe seeking federal recognition has tried to use DNA technology to establish a genetic link to other tribes. And, in response, at least one state government has considered legislation that would enable hopeful Indians to "conclusively" establish their ethnic identities.

A. Vermont House Bill 809

The Western Mohegans, a band of about 330 Indians living on ancestral lands along the border of New York and Vermont, once declined to sign a recognition treaty with the U.S. government. Now seeking state and federal [*185] recognition, the Mohegans - like others in their shoes - have found that they lack adequate genealogical documentation to prove their ancestry to the government, and have been denied status as a recognized tribe - and the benefits that accompany such recognition. In an attempt to establish a genetic link to the Mohican Indians of Wisconsin, a federally recognized tribe to which they claim ancestral ties, the Mohegans privately contracted to undergo DNA testing, the results of which they claim demonstrate such a genealogical relationship. To further their case for recognition, and to help other Indians who lack genealogical documentation, the Mohegans lobbied Vermont legislators to endorse the reliability of DNA testing as a means of establishing ethnic identity.n96

In the Vermont Assembly, sympathetic Representative Fred Maslack in early 2000 sponsored a bill that would have authorized the state health commissioner to develop standards by which DNA testing could be used to "conclusively" identify those of Native American ancestry, at their request and personal expense.n97 In support of H. 809, Rep. Maslack commented, "It makes sense to me that science should have the last word," adding that, in the future, "this could be the definitive method." n98 It seems that few of his colleagues agreed: The bill, referred to the Committee on Health and Welfare in February 2000, has given him "nothing but grief" and is unlikely to be reintroduced. n99

Rep. Maslack might be well advised to let his bill die quietly, for two reasons. First, the science supporting the bill is, at best, sketchy. The measure would limit analysis to the DNA variants that code for the human leukocyte antigens (HLAs), proteins situated on the surface of white blood cells that mediate the immune response. Because of their direct relationship to immunity and disease, HLAs have been studied extensively to uncover correlations between particular HLA variants and specific diseases.n100 However, HLA testing has not been successfully used to define ethnic groups in genetic terms. Essentially, this is because HLA DNA, though highly variable, is not much different than other polymorphisms examined by variant analysis: Although certain HLA variants may be more common in some subpopulations than in [*186] others, unless a particular variant is unique to one population, it can yield no conclusive determinations about ethnicity.n101 Indeed, Dr. Patrick Beatty, who has studied the frequencies of HLA variants among North Americans as part of the National Marrow Donor Program, notes: "I know of no HLA markers which are unique to Native Americans, or for that matter, any other major racial [or] ethnic category." n102

Second, aside from the lackluster response of his Assembly colleagues to the proposed legislation, reaction from the community can fairly be characterized as nothing short of outrage. The Vermont Governor's Advisory Commission on Native American Affairs minced no words in its attack on H. 809, calling it "racist, unethical, and immoral."n103 Journalists warned that the proposal smacked of eugenics. n104 But by far, the loudest cries came from Native American activists. Their objections to Rep. Maslack's proposal - and to genetic testing in general - are surveyed in the balance of this Part.

B. Native American Objections to Genetic Definitions of Ethnicity

Rep. Maslack's proposal struck a chord with outspoken members of the Indian community. Their reactions, though often visceral rather than reasoned, ranged from confusion to anger, and highlight some of the most troubling aspects of Rep. Maslack's proposal and of the application of genetic testing to Indian populations in general. Indian objections to genetic testing are generally threefold: (1) The term "Indian" represents a cultural identity that defies biological definition; (2) genetic descriptions of the term "Indian" threaten to usurp tribal sovereignty; and (3) condoning the use of genetic testing in this context will legitimize its abusive use in other contexts.

1. "Indian" is a culture - not a genotype.

Native Americans commonly argue that Indian status should be a cultural determination, not a biological one. Ethnic groups, they insist, are merely social constructs, and we must avoid reinforcing the assumption that ethnic identity is biologically determined. In this struggle, Native Americans have garnered widespread support from both activists and scientists. The Vermont Governor's Advisory Commission on Native American Affairs has warned that genetic testing threatens to reduce being Indian to a "racial type," instead of a "spiritual [*187] identity."n105 Morris Foster, an anthropologist at the University of Oklahoma, cautions that "it is absurd to try to define what is essentially a social identity by using biological characteristics." n106 And one researcher with the International Institute for Indigenous Resource Management in Denver suggests that scientists and policymakers who propose genetic testing as a means of ethnic identification "equate culture with race and assume that the characteristics of both can be detected biologically." n107

However, insofar as genetic testing is criticized for attempting to define a social identity using biological characteristics, it differs remarkably little from the use of blood quantum standards: both are undeniably biological measures. In addition, such objections largely reflect confused terminology, and highlight the need to exercise caution with hot-button words like ethnicity, race, and culture.

Because it lacked careful language, H. 809 fueled the fears of Indian tribes. By proposing that the results of DNA-HLA testing would serve as "conclusive proof" of Native American ancestry, and further, that test results would "determine the identity of an individual as a Native American,"n108 Rep. Maslack erred in suggesting that ethnic identity could be determined by genetic testing alone. However, this was probably not the bill's intent.

Under the commonly accepted premise that race and ethnicity are social constructs, not biological ones, no serious scientist (and hopefully, no legislator) would conflate a genetic inquiry into an individual's ancestral roots with a description of his present-day cultural ties. The DYS199 mutation does not make a man Indian - it merely suggests that one of his progenitors had indigenous roots. Further, even if DNA evidence could reveal that an individual is a full-blooded Indian, he is only politically Indian - and thus eligible for federal benefits - if granted citizenship by a federally recognized tribe.
Well , Hmmmmmmmm!
__________________
I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





There's a chance you might not like me ,

but there's a bigger

chance I won't care
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Old 08-28-2007, 06:34 PM   #138
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Old 08-28-2007, 06:34 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by kiowakat View Post
(continued):

2. Genetic definitions of "Indian" will usurp tribal sovereignty.

The autonomy to determine their own citizenship requirements instills in Indian tribes a sense of self-determination that is closely guarded. Genetic techniques for authenticating Indian heritage, whether promulgated by scientists or sanctioned by state governments, threaten to displace tribal definitions of citizenship with genetic ones, and usurp the sovereignty of tribes. Indeed, there is a common fear that by acquiescence to genetic definitions, tribes will eventually relinquish the right to define their populations. However, such a consequence seems unlikely, given the well-settled principle that Indian [*188] tribes, as sovereign governments, have the inherent power to establish their own membership criteria. This principle of self-determination has been specifically recognized by the Supreme Court, which has noted that a tribe's right to define its own membership criteria "has long been recognized as central to its existence as an independent political community."n109 This principle seems unlikely to be challenged.

There is related concern that, although H. 809 offered genetic testing as an alternative method for establishing heritage, such testing may eventually become the sole method for doing so; thus an individual lacking the typical Native American genetic markers would be denied classification as Indian. Some of this worry stems from a simple misunderstanding of the proposal. One observer noted that the "ambiguity of the [proposed] legislation resulted in misinterpretations that the legislation was meant to require DNA analysis to prove an individual's tribal affiliation."n110 Other commentators feared that the alternative might evolve into a requirement, noting that although "the current proposal does not contain wording that would negate other acceptable methods of identifying one's heritage, future application could do just that." n111 This concern belies a misconception of the power of established methods of genetic analysis, and a lack of recognition of their limitations. Even the most accurate methods of genetic analysis of ethnicity - Y-chromosome and mtDNA private polymorphism analysis - cannot conclusively disprove Native American ancestry. And, despite their promise, statistical methods such as EAE will probably not be able to render more than an imperfect estimate of the degree of ethnic ancestry. The possibilities of genetics are not without limits, and these weaknesses will prevent genetic testing from becoming the sole indicator of ethnicity.

3. Condoning genetic testing in this context legitimizes scientific inquiry, and its consequences, in other contexts.

Several commentators have suggested that Indians have both a general aversion to the methods of scientific inquiry and a fear of its consequences. With respect to the methodology, observers have noted that this anti-science sentiment stems partly from feelings of intimidation engendered by the complexity of technology, partly from fear that scientific analysis is prone to error, and partly from traditionalist attitudes that characterize technology as the "anti-traditional, anti-spiritual ... earth-destroying work of the White man."n112

[*189] Further, the potential negative consequences of scientific inquiry have led many Indian communities to fear genetic research, and to distrust the motives of scientists. Anger abounds toward research perceived as an attempt to provide contrary answers to strongly held beliefs about the origin of Indian tribes, particularly when such questions are posed not by indigenous populations themselves, but by researchers. The assumption that Indian ancestry "will be "discovered' and scientifically "answered' is insulting to groups who already have strong beliefs regarding their origins."n113

Given the historically poor treatment of Native Americans at the hands of the U.S. government, these fears are not unfounded. Indeed, since traditional Indian claims to property - and to land, especially - have often been sacrificed in the name of progress, perhaps their skepticism of modern genetic testing is justified. Specifically, fears that revisionist theories of indigenous migration may contradict settled Indian territorial claims are likely to resonate with many Indians. These are fears to which scientists should be sympathetic.

However, far from evincing sympathy, scientists have an unfortunate history of marginalizing the "traditionalist" objections of Native Americans to research on their soil and ancestral remains; the recent controversy over the remains of "Kennewick Man" comes to mind. In 1996, researchers unearthed a set of human remains near Kennewick, Washington, that radiocarbon dating estimated to be 9000 years old. Challenging the power of Indians to claim the bones of their ancestors, a group of scientists sued to enjoin the return of the remains, alleging an interference with their "constitutional right to scientific inquiry."n114 So began a five-year legal battle, still not fully resolved, over the disposition of the Kennewick Man remains. n115 The following statement, issued by one tribe claiming ownership of the remains, illustrates well the tension between traditional Indian culture and modern scientific thought:



Our elders have taught us that once a body goes in the ground, it is meant to stay there until the end of time... . We do not believe that our people migrated here from another continent, as the scientists do... . Some scientists say that if this individual is not studied further, we, as Indians, will be destroying [*190] evidence of our history. We already know our history. It is passed on to us through our elders and through our religious practices.n116

When scientific inquiry frequently results in "truths" that contradict their traditions and religion, Indian tribes are naturally wary of condoning genetic research. Further, should they accept its validity for authenticating ancestral ties, they may be hard-pressed to reject its conclusions with respect to migration and evolution. Both scientists and policymakers should be responsive to these concerns.

Conclusion

Whether seeking tribal membership or federal recognition, welfare benefits or a sense of belonging, Indians in the United States face a bumpy road - one that is not becoming smoother. Federal acknowledgement is increasingly rare. Blood quantum requirements threaten to make enrollment plummet over the next century. And, for unenrolled Indians and Indians enrolled in unrecognized tribes, a lack of political affiliation can leave them feeling "less Indian."

Despite its mythical promises, genetic testing is no panacea. The reality is that genetic testing is of limited utility as an ethnic identifier: Because of the patterns of genetic inheritance, even the most advanced methods of genetic testing will fail to identify a huge proportion of those with Indian ancestry. And, the degree of Indian ancestry of those positively marked by rare polymorphisms is currently impossible to determine by genetic tests alone. Considering also the objections of Native Americans and the cost of genetic testing, one is left wondering whether, on balance, the prospect of genetic testing does Indians more harm than good.

However, though not useful as absolute indicators of ethnicity, genetic tests like mtDNA and Y-chromosome analysis will continue to uncover useful pieces of genealogical information that - in conjunction with anthropological studies and descendancy records - can help flesh out the nooks of Indian history. But to preserve and nurture even this measure of utility, scientists and legislators must tread lightly, use careful language, and be sensitive to the concerns of the ethnic and cultural groups they are trying to help.
Where have I heard this before ??? Certainly not from the one who says if you have no card you're not Indian !
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I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

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Old 08-28-2007, 06:37 PM   #140
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see?.....done it to him too
Hi Flute !
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I believe blood quantums are the governments way to breed us out of existance !


They say blood is thicker than water ! Now maple syrup is thicker than blood , so are pancakes more important than family ?

There are "Elders" and there are "Olders". Being the second one doesn't make the first one true !

Somebody is out there somewhere, thinking of you and the impact you made in their life.
It's not me....I think you're an idiot !





There's a chance you might not like me ,

but there's a bigger

chance I won't care
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