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Old 08-28-2007, 08:09 PM   #161
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If this were a true statement , I would endeavor to answer it , but it's not , so I won't.
H.A.I.C. has the entire boards info.....ask some of them.
"Our Mission is To deliver support and educational services, while incorporating traditional and cultural values."
well thats the mission statement and zekes views have been widely posted on here about anything traditional....so it would seem that youre dodging a question...is that cuz it makes you look bad and validates what i said? hmmmmmmmmmmm and thats a very good idea about asking the board...im sure zekes comments will raise more than a few eyebrows,i know they have in the rest of indian world...might be a good idea to change the "H" in your centers name to "HYPOCRITE"
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Old 08-28-2007, 08:15 PM   #162
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"Our Mission is To deliver support and educational services, while incorporating traditional and cultural values."
well thats the mission statement and zekes views have been widely posted on here about anything traditional....so it would seem that youre dodging a question...is that cuz it makes you look bad and validates what i said? hmmmmmmmmmmm and thats a very good idea about asking the board...im sure zekes comments will raise more than a few eyebrows,i know they have in the rest of indian world...might be a good idea to change the "H" in your centers name to "HYPOCRITE"
yeah right,,pffft...and I asked them if they would help me put on this pow-wow but Zeke had other motives...oh yeah thats right we said no Zeke we are not running it like you want to, so he took his toys and went home to KC...thats okay Zeke we still have the pow-wow and not giving it up...but you should LMAO...oh yeah I was promised the 2008 Cahokia pow-wow from Cahokia mounds directors, they are getting it away from the Thunderbird society=wannabe's finally, back into the hands of the American Indian Educational Resources of St. Louis...wooohooo!!, and people know what I'm talking about.....
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Old 08-28-2007, 08:37 PM   #163
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post zeke missed.....

oh yeah and one more thing and then I'm done with zeke..
this sounds like him and his actions, the guy who wrote this, well thats his opinion...well zeke if the shoe fits.......

KC Indian Center Director Says Indians Will Be Saved By Wannabes

Word is making the rounds in the Indian communities of Missouri that a new onslaught is being mounted against them. This time it comes from part of the Indian community itself, Heart of America Indian Center in Kansas City, Missouri. The Center comes into suspect as being a genuine American Indian supporter by the very fact that it links to one of the worst organizations in existence that maligns American Indian histories and traditions - Manataka. Manataka is a New Age organization headquartered in Hot Springs, Arkansas, that pretends to be American Indian and believes that aliens built crystal power structures in caves that they blasted into the mountains surrounding the area. This is the least weird claim.The 35 year old executive director of the Heart of America Indian Center stresses that tribes are worthless relics of the past and that there never has been such a thing as tribal sovereignty. He views anyone who wishes to preserve their tribal culture and traditions as racist cultural police. Seeing tribal sovereignty as being genocidal, he welcomes wannabe tribes and wannabe ?Indians? as saviors to American Indian existence. In other words, plastic Indians and their non-profit corporate ?tribes? will fill in and take the place of real ones - thereby saving the American Indian.A 2003 Masters Graduate in Public Affairs from Parks University, a branch of the St. Louis University, he believes that Haskell is inferior to any other college in the nation. Graduates of Haskell, he has written, have a divisive mindset. This is apparently based on that Haskell promotes American Indian cultures and traditions. On the other hand, we do know that SLU has a watered American Indian studies program that conducts activities that are not exactly pro-Indian.The centers plan is to establish Indian Centers throughout Missouri to service the wannabe tribes, completely ignoring the damage they do through fabricated history and making up traditions. Part of the services will be to gain funding originally intended for legitimate American Indians and use it for the plastic Indians instead. Although resistance to this plan is starting in the St. Louis Indian community, other areas in the state will be wide open for this travesty. Unfortunately, this is not an isolated case where Indian centers have not performed in the best interest of their constituents. One example is the 2005 attempt by the ?Red Nation of the Cherokee? to take over the Mid-American All-Indian Center in Kansas City, Kansas, and rename it the Red Nation of the Cherokee Mid-America All Indian Center.
Fortunately, ?Chief Randy Two Bears Standing Tate? of the Red Nation of the Cherokee, failed in his takeover attempt. Whether or not the Executive Director of the Heart of America Indian Center fails or
succeeds in his plans is not as certain. It will depend on the
reactions and actions by legitimate American Indians in Missouri that are taken against this insult. Either way, the Heart of America Indian Center has lost all of its credibility.


why do you live off of 501c3's and grants again Zeke?? oh that's right it pays your pockets, at least I can say the money I drum up for the area Indians are going to help the community Indians here and the money goes in their pockets and I can sleep at night knowing I'm not following past corruption that our center had for years.....end of story...
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Old 08-28-2007, 09:56 PM   #164
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Wow
I went to work at 4 PM and came home at 700 PM to all this
Holy Crap

Ok let me get this straight
1) DNA testing can not tell if your NDN or not
2) The NDN Center in Kansas City is not ran to the best interest of NDN's but favors wannabes who are not NDN
3) St Louis does not want just another "Ndn center"
4) The Thunderbirds are out of the Powwow business in Cahokia Mounds
5) Calling ones grandchildren anything in an "Adult Conversation" is ground for a *** whooping where I come from Leave the Children out of the conversation period!
6) Oh yeah It is best to know what your doing when it comes to set up a 501c3 including have lots of Lawyers standing around in case the fur flays
7) Stand back
Ready break

Just updating myself on where we are did I miss anything?
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Old 08-28-2007, 10:05 PM   #165
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i find it very interesting that at zekes little meeting in st louis,one of the old queens of fakes and wannbees was invited to attend and solicited for support...gotta love those "genuine ndn puppet " stories of hers
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Old 08-28-2007, 10:08 PM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
Wow
I went to work at 4 PM and came home at 700 PM to all this
Holy Crap

Ok let me get this straight
1) DNA testing can not tell if your NDN or not
2) The NDN Center in Kansas City is not ran to the best interest of NDN's but favors wannabes who are not NDN
3) St Louis does not want just another "Ndn center"
4) The Thunderbirds are out of the Powwow business in Cahokia Mounds
5) Calling ones grandchildren anything in an "Adult Conversation" is ground for a *** whooping where I come from Leave the Children out of the conversation period!
6) Oh yeah It is best to know what your doing when it comes to set up a 501c3 including have lots of Lawyers standing around in case the fur flays
7) Stand back
Ready break

Just updating myself on where we are did I miss anything?
"#2 is crap." It does appear to not be run in the best interests of Kathy Dickerson.

"#6 requires professional leadership, a non single-family dwelling, a Board of Directors, By-Laws, State registration, open meetings, etc." None of these things appear to be associated with Kathy Dickerson.

"#7 isn't necessary." Unless truth is painful. I seem to recall, during an academic meeting -- in person -- wherein her self-serving agenda was laid bare, such was painful (tears) to Kathy Dickerson.

It was never my desire to report how she crumbles under scrutiny, but I am tired of her annoyance...

I adore the Ignore Feature.
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Old 08-28-2007, 10:35 PM   #167
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in other words the status quo is unmoved in ndn country this fine evening
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Old 08-28-2007, 10:37 PM   #168
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"#2 is crap." It does appear to not be run in the best interests of Kathy Dickerson.

"#6 requires professional leadership, a non single-family dwelling, a Board of Directors, By-Laws, State registration, open meetings, etc." None of these things appear to be associated with Kathy Dickerson.

"#7 isn't necessary." Unless truth is painful. I seem to recall, during an academic meeting -- in person -- wherein her self-serving agenda was laid bare, such was painful (tears) to Kathy Dickerson.

It was never my desire to report how she crumbles under scrutiny, but I am tired of her annoyance...

I adore the Ignore Feature.

Thanks for the compliment, I don't have any power or nothing to do with your meetings here, thanks, that you give me more power than what I have, I don't have any influence on anybody.
Zeke I'm just not interested in what or who you are, or what your representing, good luck in your endevours...
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Old 08-28-2007, 10:39 PM   #169
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in other words the status quo is unmoved in ndn country this fine evening
Erosion, my friend. Erosion and Natural Selection.
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Old 08-28-2007, 10:58 PM   #170
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in other words the status quo is unmoved in ndn country this fine evening
What is that old saying?
Oh yes...
What happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object???
Such as this debate. Its a paradox
ahh but it does have a solution...
When the two meet an inconceivable event will occur!
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Old 08-28-2007, 10:58 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
"#2 is crap." It does appear to not be run in the best interests of Kathy Dickerson.

"#6 requires professional leadership, a non single-family dwelling, a Board of Directors, By-Laws, State registration, open meetings, etc." None of these things appear to be associated with Kathy Dickerson.

"#7 isn't necessary." Unless truth is painful. I seem to recall, during an academic meeting -- in person -- wherein her self-serving agenda was laid bare, such was painful (tears) to Kathy Dickerson.

It was never my desire to report how she crumbles under scrutiny, but I am tired of her annoyance...

I adore the Ignore Feature.
care to comment on the fake that was invited to your meeting zeke? or going to sidestep that as is status quo with you? oh thats right,people dont have to be indian to join up with you...granny coyote is a perfect example of the types you solicit and validate and i would bet that alot closer scrutiny is paid to centers etc now that the 2 stories about fakes selling tribal memberships and license plates has had national coverage...seems you did a bit of whining too after that blog was posted about you,so more of your ongoing blithering hypcracies...and wrong again,a 501c3 does not require professional leadership...and better to get your facts straight before spewing them zeke...it was reported by several people in attendence at the meeting you reference that it seems you have a real problem with women who are strong and in an attempt to belittle them you used rude and condescending coments...im sure kk is an annoyance to you because shes upsetting your agenda and people arent buying what youre selling...too bad
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:14 PM   #172
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ya know what sad here josiah? i half agree with one of 'em and half agree with the other. while dont see having a card as the be all end all of ndn existance. the fact that someone has a federal card ,to me, only means that they have a federal card. i call them paper ndns,not as an insult, to illuminate thier obvious greater connection to thier card than thier people.
but i do feel that blood is nessesary. being ndn is more than just the cultural aspect of life.its more than just taking part in the powwow culture.
i like to think myself a strong individual, i once watched faces of death 1,2 and3 while eating little ceaser's pizza. but the phrase 'im indian in spirit' still makes me want to hurl
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:33 PM   #173
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ya know what sad here josiah? i half agree with one of 'em and half agree with the other. while dont see having a card as the be all end all of ndn existance. the fact that someone has a federal card ,to me, only means that they have a federal card. i call them paper ndns,not as an insult, to illuminate thier obvious greater connection to thier card than thier people.
but i do feel that blood is nessesary. being ndn is more than just the cultural aspect of life.its more than just taking part in the powwow culture.
i like to think myself a strong individual, i once watched faces of death 1,2 and3 while eating little ceaser's pizza. but the phrase 'im indian in spirit' still makes me want to hurl
FM ive stated this before and ill do so once again i am not for a crd system or blood quantums,i am rather for self-determination and i am traditional which seems to be a sever thorn in zekes side,for reasons posted above...my personal favorite phrase is"i was ndn in a past life"
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:39 PM   #174
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and thats fully understandable. quantum doesnt always mean a whole lot either. as far as i care a person is either a skin or not. but i do feel there should be blood
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Old 08-29-2007, 01:05 AM   #175
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Wow, I'm in the same position as Josiah, he pretty much hit it right on the head for me. Especially with "Leave the kids alone and out of it"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm surprised, but then I agree totally with Flute Maker, you don't need a card to be Indian, but I do think that you should have some blood. I am seeing what happens when non-blood people start saying that they are Indian, LLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOKKKKKKKKKKKKKKOOOOOOOOOOOOOOU UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT, and I'm not kidding. It gets very ugly to those who are just trying to live their lives in peace knowing who they are and where they come from. I am a very big and firm believer in honor your ancestors and what's in your spirit---which comes from your ancestors---hence blood in the end. It all goes into one in the end.

But, I also don't think that a card is all that important, it can be for somethings---but it doesn't make or break a person from who they are---that comes from inside ones own self.

I, also, have seen many problems with the "self-determination" thing as well. I have heard many people say "I'm not Indian at all, but I like (this way or that)". Okay, that sounds very nice and many people that I talk to say the same thing "I'd respect more the person who admits that they have none, then to hear them say that they are Indian and then find out that they are not." Well, let's look at some of that as well. Most of the ones who say that they are not today----in two years will suddenly be this Tribe or That an an "Elder" or a "Medicine person", oh and that is usually done at a pow wow infront of people where an "Elder" of the Tribe makes them that. Okay---is it just me or is this a big problem? So then what takes most people all their lives of learning, a non-Indian can come in and within two years be all of that with a wave of a hand? Okay, if that's what you want, but not me. I'll go where I know and where I belong---with my family.

We have a joke here (some of my friends and I)--what Tribe do you want to be this month?LOL We have known some people so long that years ago they were of (say for arguments sake) Cheyenne and now they are saying that they are Choctaw, or were Cherokee two years ago---Now Apache and not only Apache but a "Medicine" person at that, or was Kiowa and now Sioux. This happens way too much and that's what needs to be stopped. Not those who know who they are even if they do or don't have a card.
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Old 08-29-2007, 01:40 AM   #176
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Hey KK, I know that my Dads Mother was sent to a Catholic boarding school in Springfield MO about the time of the WWI period. I am in belief that one of Christopher(Kit) Bonds last deeds as Govnr of MO when Walking Joe Teasdale was elected Govnr was to sign some old Horse and Buggy laws out of existance. One of these laws was the law prohibiting NDNs from being citizens of MO. This law as I understood it was to prohibit NDNs from owning land, voting or holding any public office. I believe that many of the mixed bloods were able to get by with living the 2 worlds.

I can site family both on the Dawes and those off the Dawes. Naturally I can't call each and every relation but I can name at least sirnames. I can do this for each of the Tribes I am descended from though I'm not papered in all of these other Tribes. I know what you are refering to and I am not promoting the fakes but rather trying to explain some of the reasons for historically not stepping forward and telling everyone who would listen that I'M NDN as we do now. My Grandma was so shamed of being NDN when she was in the school that she would not admit that she was NDN 'til the day she died. It was OK with her that my Grandpa was NDN just not her. She had more blood quantum than my grandpa did, not much more though. This is just an example. I learned of NDN things from grandmas brothers and sisters, and grandpas brothers( whom I lived with often throughout my life) as I stayed with many of my relations throughour my life. I was not able to learn anything from my Moms mother since she died during my Moms birth. She was NDN as was my Moms dad. He died when I was very young. I just know of this family and not all in person. Does this make me no longer NDN. I think if asked most of my family and friends would agree that I could be called NDN as is my Wife though she wasnt raised in the NDN ways. Her Parents(full bloods) thought it best to raise their children in the dominant world, though they spoke Spanish in the home. Many things taught in the home could be thought of as NDN such as the food eaten and how it is prepared etc..

I think I could go to most anywhere in OK and other NDN country and be NDN. They don't even ask me for my ID(papers). I believe this is the kind of thing these others are wanting to be able to do and just don't know how to go about it. I'm not real sure but I would think that Fed. Tribes are experiencing a vast no. of enrollment request. This is a time of revitalization and resurgance of the people. This time has been prophesied from our elders several generations ago. Lets be proud to be NDN instead of being holier than thou.
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Old 08-29-2007, 02:19 AM   #177
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Wow, I'm in the same position as Josiah, he pretty much hit it right on the head for me. Especially with "Leave the kids alone and out of it"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm surprised, but then I agree totally with Flute Maker, you don't need a card to be Indian, but I do think that you should have some blood. I am seeing what happens when non-blood people start saying that they are Indian, LLLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOKKKKKKKKKKKKKKOOOOOOOOOOOOOOU UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT, and I'm not kidding. It gets very ugly to those who are just trying to live their lives in peace knowing who they are and where they come from. I am a very big and firm believer in honor your ancestors and what's in your spirit---which comes from your ancestors---hence blood in the end. It all goes into one in the end.

But, I also don't think that a card is all that important, it can be for somethings---but it doesn't make or break a person from who they are---that comes from inside ones own self.

I, also, have seen many problems with the "self-determination" thing as well. I have heard many people say "I'm not Indian at all, but I like (this way or that)". Okay, that sounds very nice and many people that I talk to say the same thing "I'd respect more the person who admits that they have none, then to hear them say that they are Indian and then find out that they are not." Well, let's look at some of that as well. Most of the ones who say that they are not today----in two years will suddenly be this Tribe or That an an "Elder" or a "Medicine person", oh and that is usually done at a pow wow infront of people where an "Elder" of the Tribe makes them that. Okay---is it just me or is this a big problem? So then what takes most people all their lives of learning, a non-Indian can come in and within two years be all of that with a wave of a hand? Okay, if that's what you want, but not me. I'll go where I know and where I belong---with my family.

We have a joke here (some of my friends and I)--what Tribe do you want to be this month?LOL We have known some people so long that years ago they were of (say for arguments sake) Cheyenne and now they are saying that they are Choctaw, or were Cherokee two years ago---Now Apache and not only Apache but a "Medicine" person at that, or was Kiowa and now Sioux. This happens way too much and that's what needs to be stopped. Not those who know who they are even if they do or don't have a card.
Timmy...self determination as in,tribes determining for themselves their own enrollment requirements...not individual self determination as you spoke of...
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Old 08-29-2007, 02:35 AM   #178
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Okay, well that's a little different because I have heard it both ways. When I was in Cherokee last, I was talking with a very good friend of mine from the OK Cherokee's and we were talking about the gov. intruding with Tribal affairs, I am against that totally. The Tribes are Soverign for a reason and I believe in that. Not to hurt anyone, but because this is the way that it's been and the way that it should be to protect the people and the homelands from certain distruction.

It does make it hard on the person who really does have ancestors way back who really were on the Rolls, sometimes. But then sometimes you have to look at the many more then just the one. Even if that one is me or a friend of mine, I will stand for what I believe in. There are truely people out there who are Indian and they know it, but for many different reasons they can't connect. That's sad. But then there are those who are just plain lazy and want to claim something that they have never really looked into and that's what makes it hard on the few who really are who they are. To know your ancestors is what's important, not a piece of paper. That's just my opinion.
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Old 08-29-2007, 07:04 AM   #179
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Hey KK, I know that my Dads Mother was sent to a Catholic boarding school in Springfield MO about the time of the WWI period. I am in belief that one of Christopher(Kit) Bonds last deeds as Govnr of MO when Walking Joe Teasdale was elected Govnr was to sign some old Horse and Buggy laws out of existance. One of these laws was the law prohibiting NDNs from being citizens of MO. This law as I understood it was to prohibit NDNs from owning land, voting or holding any public office. I believe that many of the mixed bloods were able to get by with living the 2 worlds.

I can site family both on the Dawes and those off the Dawes. Naturally I can't call each and every relation but I can name at least sirnames. I can do this for each of the Tribes I am descended from though I'm not papered in all of these other Tribes. I know what you are refering to and I am not promoting the fakes but rather trying to explain some of the reasons for historically not stepping forward and telling everyone who would listen that I'M NDN as we do now. My Grandma was so shamed of being NDN when she was in the school that she would not admit that she was NDN 'til the day she died. It was OK with her that my Grandpa was NDN just not her. She had more blood quantum than my grandpa did, not much more though. This is just an example. I learned of NDN things from grandmas brothers and sisters, and grandpas brothers( whom I lived with often throughout my life) as I stayed with many of my relations throughour my life. I was not able to learn anything from my Moms mother since she died during my Moms birth. She was NDN as was my Moms dad. He died when I was very young. I just know of this family and not all in person. Does this make me no longer NDN. I think if asked most of my family and friends would agree that I could be called NDN as is my Wife though she wasnt raised in the NDN ways. Her Parents(full bloods) thought it best to raise their children in the dominant world, though they spoke Spanish in the home. Many things taught in the home could be thought of as NDN such as the food eaten and how it is prepared etc..

I think I could go to most anywhere in OK and other NDN country and be NDN. They don't even ask me for my ID(papers). I believe this is the kind of thing these others are wanting to be able to do and just don't know how to go about it. I'm not real sure but I would think that Fed. Tribes are experiencing a vast no. of enrollment request. This is a time of revitalization and resurgance of the people. This time has been prophesied from our elders several generations ago. Lets be proud to be NDN instead of being holier than thou.

Again I didn't say there wasn't ndns in MO....but no tribal lands...anyways I believe in tribal registeration, ndns that aren't registered but they have a strong connection (documnetation,desendency) to their tribe, I also believe in non natives knowing the knowledge of some ndn stuff, but I don't believe all these so called groups here in Missouri all the sudden popped up in the 70's because they were hiding as a tribe,clan,band etc...they still have to be registered with a tribe to do what they are doing and thats calling themselves a tribe, band, clan, again whatever they feel like LOL ......., and all of these groups are not that.....TT I can relate to that question "who are you this week", OH and using wannabe's to gain personal gain is not honorable either...my opinion

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Old 08-29-2007, 07:18 AM   #180
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personal observation... all these guys that are smug about their heritage, behind them is an American Indian woman that is being controlled, used for status in a group, also makes the guy think they have a right, give them validation somehow, who knows, but I think its sick lol ........glad I didn't find a non native guy like that.....whew...my opinion....

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