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Old 01-11-2005, 12:07 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jammer
Many ceremonies are gone and probably forever...and I wouldn't doubt many others will soon follow in the next few hundered years..how long before we loose the concept and meanings behind the feathers? How long before we kill out our own ways and as other races and cultures melt together in this melting pot of america.
I totally agree with this. All the more reason to protect what we now have. This is how the Anishinabe ceremonies stayed with our people. The keepers of these ways took them underground. No one but Anishinaabeg took part. They stayed hidden.
If it wasn't for this out of sight performing of the ancient ceremonies, they would have been lost.
It appears that it is time again to do this. There are far too many wannabes who are taking bits and pieces of different nations ceremonies and ( I'll use the phrase that Jammer used) melt them together. This is very wrong.
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Old 01-11-2005, 12:31 AM   #22
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just throwin in my two pennies again....if these two guys are stating their cases on a religious basis, what the heck is that one guy doing with 141 (?) eagle feathers? in many of the ceremonies i've been in, there has been usually one tail fan or a wing fan or even one single tail feather to fan the smudge coals. when i smudge with sweetgrass i personally dont use any feathers (i dont have any for this specific purpose - too hard to get a hold of eagle feathers to begin with) and just use my hand to fan the sweetgrass. what would be the need for this many feathers? a person can practise native american "religions" without eagle feathers...MAYBE these guys have something else going on....

besides imagine if somewhere along the way the government deemed crucifixes illegal to possess without the proper permits (show blood quantum/decendents/etc.)
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Old 01-11-2005, 12:54 AM   #23
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ok I see where this is going

Boozhoo niji,

If I had 141 feathers I would make a cool set of bustles for fancy dancing, but you know... fancy dancing is not really religious, well it sorta is for me, but its not traditional I guess is what I should say.

I could see someone having one or two, for doing whatever ceremony they have going on. You all do know there are eagles in England right? Saw an Englishman on TV, over in Britian, with a jar full of about 20 or so.

Anyway... its my belief the spirits take care of their own, if there is someone out there abusing something in someway, then something bad usually happens to them.

My view on someone not indiginous to this land, and maybe I dont have a say here or maybe I do, I am only 1/32 Ojibwe, but our traditions are trailing off, I dont like to use the work dieing because that sounds too final and negative, but someone has to keep the traditions alive. There are not all that many people out there really wanting to learn them, native or not native. There are too many natives on the reservations that go out and get drunk and gamble, and these people can not be in the right mind to learn traditional ways respectfully.

I know some people, white people that want to learn a particular tradition, or have learned it, because they were adopted or whatever term you will use, and they only practice the traditions for a single tribe, not mixing things up. And yet I have seen Natives going out and mixing things up, adopting traditions for outside their own tribe, I see that too often, and I see it from card carrying enrolled members.

So now where are we? It seems like that whereever you look someone is taking something good and turning it to something bad. I think this is largely because of the influx of europeans into this land. And they never understood us to begin with. But if there is one among them who does understand, who feels remorse for what their ancestors did (I curse my white ancestors, I can prove directly they fought with Seminoles), who is to say that he was born in the wrong place. Maybe some among them who seek understanding can find their way into a path, guided by the Great Spirit, that will lead more into that way of thinking. Who knows? Maybe one day we can trust the government? Not because they tell us we can, but because we voted for people that are competent enough to hold the office, and are friends of the Indian. I know what I would do if voted into office.

Funny thing is... I cant even vote for anyone on council on the rez. I can only vote for white people, in a white country full of white people and white issues. None of them effect me spiritually, they only take my money I pay out for taxes and put further restrictions on what I can and cant do.

I more like the idea of spirits affecting the direction of my life. So if I walk down a path someplace and see an eagle feather on the ground... pick it up or leave it lay? I like to think the manitoo take good care of me, and I honor them every day with asema, tobacco.

Derek
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Old 01-11-2005, 02:05 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwehnzii
I totally agree with this. All the more reason to protect what we now have. This is how the Anishinabe ceremonies stayed with our people. The keepers of these ways took them underground. No one but Anishinaabeg took part. They stayed hidden.
If it wasn't for this out of sight performing of the ancient ceremonies, they would have been lost.
It appears that it is time again to do this. There are far too many wannabes who are taking bits and pieces of different nations ceremonies and ( I'll use the phrase that Jammer used) melt them together. This is very wrong.
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Old 01-11-2005, 11:11 AM   #25
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Thumbs down Fence Sitter....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwehnzii
If an individual is so chosen by the manitou's to be honoured with an eagle feather (no matter how many), than no "white eyed"/"anishinabek" so-called law, should strike down that honour

Giving away or already did give a whole bunch to your non-Indian in-laws? Are they making a bustle?

Whatever happened to our anishinabek family

Mine is still intact.

without a thought of your stupidity

Is this judgemental?

Singing Eagle - I'm with you.

Rather big difference of opinion between 3 generations. The younger the person is the softer they are.

Your anishinabek family is no longer yours, you must have forgotten about residential schools and the 60's scoop ehh ???

I know your type well, they call you fence sitters. You are the type to join other arm chair politicians and astound us with
verbal Bee Ess. Your type invades nations who are trying to amass for the time of the seventh fire. You are not nation builders,
you are nation destroyers.

Imagine how many rights of anishinabek would be left by the wayside, if we waited on arm chair politicians to stand and walk
their oh jibberish talk ???

The anishinabek talk of sharing, honour and respect of mother earth and all of her living things, you talk of elitism.

Your oh jibberish reminds me of another one time elitist race, remember how that turned out ???

No, I have no time for you in this age, when we are approaching what is "good" again.

One nation for all...no matter what generation you come from, what opine you have or what age you are, you cannot
ill define this path.
I'm with no one, who sits on the fence
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Old 01-11-2005, 11:26 AM   #26
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You sound like a Shaman.
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Old 01-11-2005, 03:43 PM   #27
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Lol!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwehnzii
You sound like a Shaman.
I could just see you saying that.....Funny! This is too dam much for me...I'm heading back 2 da Rez.....Ki...Your comical!
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Old 01-11-2005, 04:28 PM   #28
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Some Thoughts

This a really nice thread and a great discussion. This is a subject that obviously has no one answer and it creates many double standards. At best it is an example of the perfect "Catch 22."

Here are a few things to really think about:

1. Religion and Race and Culture are all very different! If there can be Christian Converts, Jewish Converts, Muslim Converts, Hindu Converts, Buddist Converts (and so many, many more) then why can there not be Native American Converts? We seem to constantly want others to know our faith, respect our faith and even learn from our faith. Then who is to say that they can not believe our faith? History clearly tells us that there have been many non-Native Americans converted to the life and religious faiths of Native America. Heck even some of our great leaders were only part Native American and some where even White - yet they were accepted by their Nation and their Nation's Spiritual Leaders. But is not the acceptance from The Creator the real issue?

2. The right to have Eagle Feathers is not a Native American issue only. Eagle Feathers have been used around the Globe by many Cultures and Races and Religions since the dawn of time and are still being used by many Cultures and Races and Religions around the Globe. Granted there are only a few species of Eagles in the Americas and the world in general. Do we really want to open that Pandora's Box and have to DNA test every Ealge Feather to see if it is indigenous to the Americas?

3. There are many other ways to legally have Eagle Feathers and other Feathers of Protected Birds. This includes but is not limited to Research, Rehabilitation, Falconry, etc. here in the United States and across the Globe. And in some countries there are no laws concerning possession of Eagle Feathers whatsoever.

So just because one has Eagle Feathers does not mean they are this or that or the other. And when it comes to Religion and Spirituality - that is very subjective. As one person already said, should not that desicion be from The Creator?
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Old 01-11-2005, 09:31 PM   #29
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Wow, good thread. Ruffling some feathers here ( literally ).

I am torn with this issue. I donít participate very much in these threads because I usually have too much to say, and I donít want to bore anyone with my thoughts. I do feel compelled to write something on this so here goes.

I do not like wanna-beís (I hate that word) or people that play Indian. It is an embarrassment to American society, for people who do not understand the true meanings, to feel they need to be of a certain race or culture when they are not. However, we all know many non-native people that have done more for Indian culture than most bloods. I am so glad that Tom Iron Eagle took the time to post what he did. Very well said and I must say that the majority of Native People feel this way. Having the white race become part of our culture ( IF DONE IN A GOOD WAY ) can only help with many aspects of the problems that we still face.

"Change comes with numbers, information, and understanding"
An example is my own family. My Grandmother is Miami and my Grandfather is part Santee. They are both in heaven now, but while they were with us, they took no part in the recognition of their heritage. Thank God that my parents threw me into the dance arena when I was 5 and pushed me to bring forth our heritage. Donít get me wrong, I loved both my Grandparents. They just decided not to live as Indians in their heart.

ďIN THEIR HEARTĒ

Whether we believe this has anything to do with our heritage or not, I believe it does. I know many people of Native American heritage, and different races in general, that do nothing to contribute to their heritage. In fact, many disregard their culture as nothing more than happenstance of birth. It is not in their heart to participate, acknowledge, understand, or help in anyway their culture/people. It is not in their hearts!

With this said, I hate the word WANNA-BE. It is racist and does nothing but promote the gap between the white people and Natives. I, unfortunately have run across this first hand. You see, I received the majority of my looks from the genes of my 100% German Father. While my Mother, & Sister look like they could be from the Cozad Family, I am white skinned and blue eyed.
I have received some negative looks from a few Native people over the years. However after being in the circle for 40 years now, and all that I have given to the community and our culture in general, most people know me and don't think twice about my skin color. Even if they do not know for sure of my percentage of Indian blood, they know that MY HEART is there.

I know I have not addressed the issue of Feathers ( I'm just glad I have my papers for the ones I have ). However, this discussion seemed to be turning into something different and I felt compelled to comment. Sorry if I have strayed. I have strong comments on the feather issue which I may address later, but my post is too long already.
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Old 01-12-2005, 10:12 AM   #30
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Very Nice

Very Nice post there DrippinWithBeads. Extremely well written and clear to your viewpoint.

You seem to understand the word Wannabe more than others. It seems strange that so many complain about Native Wannabes when they are out being Wannabes in another culture or another society.

Now before anyone shoots this down start really thinking about how many Natives are Wannabe Black Hip Hoppers, Hoods, Pimps, etc. and then think about the Natives that are Wannabe White High Society, Upety Country Club Members, etc. And lets not forget back in the 80's when so many Natives were Wannabe Asian Martial Arts Masters.

Wannabe is not all inclusive to our culture only! It spans all races and cultures - unfortunately.
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Old 01-12-2005, 06:16 PM   #31
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I think this problem with the term "wanna-be" and not enrolled having fearthers walk hand in hand. We give or use the term "wanna-be" to those that try to act like or seem like they know a little something about the ndn life and culture. Those that don't know very many things about any one nation but takes from many. Though they could very much have the blood, they aren't considered anything but until they prove them selfs within the community or arena. This feather issue walks right along side them. We usually have a problem with the same people possesing feathers. Because they have no concept on what it is to posses one or even why many of us have them. I believe these people and people who aren't enrolled and posses feathers are looked at differently when they follow or know about a single people more then they know of another. As well as knowing the reasons for having feathers and the ways they are used, not only in ceremony but in everyday life. I think these two issues come down to a more single problem. I might be going out on a limb here, but in my opinion it would seem that the problem comes down to knowledge. If a person is not enrolled, yet posses a feather/s and is knowledgable in a nations ways they are usually overlooked as being true in their heart, hence being true in their intentions. It is usually only when a person is without knowledge that we label them as trying to be something their not.
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Old 01-13-2005, 11:58 AM   #32
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Well Said.

Nice post Jammer.

The issure of who can and who can not posses feathers in Our Cutlure is one thing - the issure of who can and who can not posses feathers in general is a complete and very complicated issue. All to often we combine the two issues but they need to be kept separate.

This thread has hit upon both at the same time because the case itself hits both. I fear that regardless of what the case comes out to be it will only create more cases and create more loopholes on both sides of the issue(s).
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Old 01-13-2005, 12:28 PM   #33
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Please, refer to the thread "White Noise".

Am I being paranoid or what? This is the result of these people visiting native communities and "just want to learn". Don't take my word for it. Go to this thread and click on the link.
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Old 01-13-2005, 07:50 PM   #34
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[QUOTE=Tom Iron Eagle]

Now before anyone shoots this down start really thinking about how many Natives are Wannabe Black Hip Hoppers, Hoods, Pimps, etc. and then think about the Natives that are Wannabe White High Society, Upety Country Club Members, etc. And lets not forget back in the 80's when so many Natives were Wannabe Asian Martial Arts Masters.

QUOTE]
Ok not exactly shooting you down. I felt the same way once before but found that this is not exactly true. Hip hop is youth culture and changes every decade. Fashion and music are'nt true cultures, they are fads and will dissappear when the next decade comes around and everyone is dressing in whatever and listening to whatever and the slang changes again. Also if a native becomes rich and wants to experience having a car that is nice and going to some nice clubs, that means he's a wannabe rich dude now? Naw, that's just something he can do cause he now has the money. And in the 80's everyone wanted to be a martial artist thanks to karate kid. If this is a culture at all it's American Culture and our youth should be able to participate in it if they like.

Ours are cultures based on spirituality and tradition. It's not a passing fad, it is much more than that. There are folks out there that recognize that now and wannabe a part of it cause to them it makes them special. Everyone likes to feel special, but there's always those that go overboard.
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Old 01-13-2005, 11:04 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drippin With Beads
With this said, I hate the word WANNA-BE. It is racist and does nothing but promote the gap between the white people and Natives.
This is very true... Your whole post was very well written...

Being unable to possess an eagle feather due to other people abusing the privilage would be very sad.... I sure hope this day will never come.
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Old 01-14-2005, 12:19 AM   #36
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"Blackbear" is correct in that there are quite a few people of other races, who are curious about the Native culture. Lets face it, the past decade has brought a new awareness to our culture. Movies, Art, TV Shows, Casinos, High Pay-Out Powwows, The new NA Museum opening in Washington ... All of these things have played a part in having more and more people become aware that we are here and growing stronger. You are right, "Blackbear", when you say that the Indian culture is not a fad. However, what I believe "Tom Iron Eagle" is addressing is that other races are taking notice of our culture. Some are just curious. Some are very interested. Some also, would like to participate to gain knowledge. This is where many have a problem.

We all must surely know that "people seeking knowledge, empowers those that have it". I believe that this can only enrich our culture and make us stronger. This is what "Jammer" is eluding to. I know that we have along way to go in our efforts with regards to knowing where to draw the line in letting other people into our "world". This is just something that patience, and confidence in who we are, will help us find that middle ground without prejudice.

** I still have not addressed the feathers issue. I real would like to. However like I previously said, there is a whole other issue surfacing in this topic of discussion.
Lets keep it going because I really do want to get to my thought on the "owning feathers" topic.

***** Kiwehnzii-- I would like to read the thread "White Noise", but I can't seem to find it. Please point me in the right direction (Forum and page #). Thanks.
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Old 01-14-2005, 02:23 AM   #37
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Hi DWB
Here is the thread for you to look at White Noise Thread
Chi Migwetch, WPD
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OK Niji we are running a train with red over yellow at this powwow.
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Old 01-14-2005, 11:03 AM   #38
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Thanks WPD for posting that.

To all you doubters that think there are no thieves, need I say more?
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Old 01-14-2005, 11:19 AM   #39
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Nope...that pretty well covers it! bizzare!
C
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Old 01-14-2005, 04:06 PM   #40
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More Explaination

BlackBear, that is good and I see exactly what you are saying. And you right in the concept of American Culture, which is always evolving - also known as Pop Culture.

But I was not addressing Fads and Fashion and Pop Culture. I am talking about the Natives that are really and true Wannabe Blacks or they are really and true Wannabe African Americans (if you so choose that term). I am also talking about the Natives that are Wannabe White Rich People (why can't they just be Rich Natives). And I am talking about the Natives that are Wannabe Asians. And so forth.

Just as White Wannabes are trying to be Native, we have examples of Natives trying to be White or Black or Asian and wanting to be (Wannabe) part of the White Culture (whether it be American, German, French, Italian, etc.) or Asian Culture and even African Culture.

Of course all people should be themselves, but that is not what all people want.

As far as this Thread:
We may never know what the people in this Feather Case want as there can always be hidden agendas. While we are very protective of our Culture we also know that Religion is not all inclusive to a Race (close but not 100 percent). I for one am rather excited to see what happens in this case and what it creates in the future.
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