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Old 01-19-2005, 03:24 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackwatercreek2005
Before anyone can accuse anyone of being a wannabe you should take the time to talk to and understand the reasons for their beliefs. Many white people that I have talked to have told me that "NATIVE BELIEFS ARE BEAUTIFUL". With that said I do believe on the other hand that Non-Natives or White people (zaginashes in the north) should not be given these powerful tools of our culture, without first testing these individuals.

Try giving them a test.

I would get them to learn our beliefs and our launguage. After they mastered this test then they would be able to recieve the feathers, from our people. I believe if we do this we may in fact open the white man's eyes to what it's like to be a native person. This also may help out with the Racism and Discrimination that our people deal with in a dayly basis.

One last question.......who on this discussion really understands why we carry feathers?.....or practice our culture the way we do?......maybe we have to learn more also.....

I KNOW I HAVE ALOT OF LEARNING TO DO....

MEEGWETCH
Very wise words also... we cannot just exclaim others as wannabes cause thats makes us just as bad as the rest.. and if we were to do that then does that give White people the right to say that NdNs are wannabe Cowboys and ranchers? NO because its an interest and a way of life one has chosen to adopt... I see alot of them CB's running around reservations but have never ridden a bull..LOL.. people this issue works both ways...we are Not expemt as Natives...we are only exempt in regards to tax on cigs and Gas.. LMAO.. But ya get muh point.
We ALL have alot of learning to do Blackwater...
hehe I like your name its my hubbys family name.. on his Great Grandmothers side..

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Old 01-19-2005, 04:08 PM   #62
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by AngelFeather
Very wise words also... we cannot just exclaim others as wannabes cause thats makes us just as bad as the rest.. and if we were to do that then does that give White people the right to say that NdNs are wannabe Cowboys and ranchers? NO because its an interest and a way of life one has chosen to adopt... I see alot of them CB's running around reservations but have never ridden a bull..LOL.. people this issue works both ways...we are Not expemt as Natives...we are only exempt in regards to tax on cigs and Gas.. LMAO.. But ya get muh point.
We ALL have alot of learning to do Blackwater...
hehe I like your name its my hubbys family name.. on his Great Grandmothers side..
LOL good point about the cowboys.
Yes there is alot of native people running around with cowboy hats on....I like to think of that as a way to blend our two very different cultures...

to tell you the truth i own a cowboy hat myself
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Old 01-19-2005, 06:03 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blackwatercreek2005
LOL good point about the cowboys.
Yes there is alot of native people running around with cowboy hats on....I like to think of that as a way to blend our two very different cultures...

to tell you the truth i own a cowboy hat myself

Yeah I do too But ya got my point tho... lol so it doesnt make sense for any of us to be running around calling anyone wannabes.. we live in a world of borrowing and sharing and yes even stealing.. just how the human race has evolved..
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Old 01-20-2005, 12:17 AM   #64
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The eagle as it means to the Anishinaabe

Boozhoo niji,

This is the legend that I know about migizi, the bald eagle, and the Anishinaabe. It is something that I read out of a book about eagles. I do not remember it verbatum, but I remember the important parts, and I feel that it brings up some very important ideas.

Gitchie Manitoo, the Creator made the earth and all that is upon it. He made the sky, the stars, the water, the four leggeds, the winged ones and the finned ones. He made the trees, the rocks and most important, the Anishinaabe. There was a time when everything was working according to the plan that Gitchie Manitoo set in motion with all his creations. But there came a time in which this balance was threatened, the Anishinaabe were doing some disrespectful things. This upset the Creator greatly, and he considered destroying the Anishinaabe.

Migizi, the eagle heard of this, and wanted to do something about it. Migizi loved the Anishinaabe greatly, and told them that Gitchie Manitoo was planning to destroy them, because of the bad things they had done. The Anishinaabe pleaded with Migizi to travel to the house of Gitchie Manitoo, to plead with him and find out what must be done to be saved. So Migizi few up towards the sun. She flew higher and higher, until she was just a speck in the sky. She flew close to the sun and risked being scorched by its heat, and then flew around the sun and into the house of Gitchie Manitoo.

Gitchie Manitoo heard the eagle land and called out, who is it, that has come to my house here by the sun?

It is I, Migizi, and I have come on behalf of the Anishinaabe. I have heard that you want to destroy them, and I want to know what must be done to save them.

Gitchie Manitoo pondered this and then spoke. You were very brave to come up here and ask for these things. I will not destroy the Anishinaabe, because you care enough for them to come here and ask for me not to do so. Tell them that they must respect all living things, and offer asema, tobacco for the things they must take. Tell them what it means to live the good life.

Migizi turned to go. I will tell them these things.

Gitchie Manitoo thought for another moment and spoke again. Wait. There is one other thing, because you were so brave in comming here to ask me these things, let it be known that you are a teacher and an elder. Those that you fly over will be protected by me. Let it be known also, that have your feathers, your claws, and your visage, or any symbol thereof, are sacred. Any who posess these things will be protected by me. Now go, and teach the Anishinaabe of the good life.

And so, Migizi flew back home, back to the Anishinaabe, and taught them of the good life. And once again, all was in balance. Ho.

I think this legend speaks for itself, and also answers the question as to what the feathers mean, if you carry or wear them, at least as far as the Anishinaabe are concerned.

Miigwech
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Old 01-21-2005, 11:38 PM   #65
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Thumbs down If all you have to do is fight for feathers....get a life!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Singing Eagle
What would you think of all this if you needed a feather and couldn't get one because every crystal-carrying, new-age, wannabe Tom, Dick and Harriet who said it's their "right" had one instead of you.

And one other thing - you told us all not to judge anyone and then you go and judge us for our beliefs and opinions - going so far as to call it stupidity - so as for me, if the "white-eyed" come looking for feathers to give away to non-NDNs like the ones in the court case - I recommend they get your share - seeing as how you like to share so much! If you like you can go ahead and give it all away just don't expect the rest of us to do the same - as a people, we've had enough taken from us already and I'm willing to fight to keep what I have left!
Give me a break.

If thats all you can resort to, is fighting for eagle feathers, you have already forgotten to respect "Mother Earth" and all of her creatures. They aren't "our" feathers, they are the "eagles" feathers. If old white eyes wants to further degrade his so called belief in ecology action, let him do so, give him the 6 feet of rope he so desparately deserves. Why waste energies over this? Choose your battles wisely, this isn't one of them.
There are bigger and better battles to wage war in......
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Old 01-22-2005, 12:02 AM   #66
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Thankyou

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazywolf
Boozhoo niji,

This is the legend that I know about migizi, the bald eagle, and the Anishinaabe. It is something that I read out of a book about eagles. I do not remember it verbatum, but I remember the important parts, and I feel that it brings up some very important ideas.

Gitchie Manitoo, the Creator made the earth and all that is upon it. He made the sky, the stars, the water, the four leggeds, the winged ones and the finned ones. He made the trees, the rocks and most important, the Anishinaabe. There was a time when everything was working according to the plan that Gitchie Manitoo set in motion with all his creations. But there came a time in which this balance was threatened, the Anishinaabe were doing some disrespectful things. This upset the Creator greatly, and he considered destroying the Anishinaabe.

Migizi, the eagle heard of this, and wanted to do something about it. Migizi loved the Anishinaabe greatly, and told them that Gitchie Manitoo was planning to destroy them, because of the bad things they had done. The Anishinaabe pleaded with Migizi to travel to the house of Gitchie Manitoo, to plead with him and find out what must be done to be saved. So Migizi few up towards the sun. She flew higher and higher, until she was just a speck in the sky. She flew close to the sun and risked being scorched by its heat, and then flew around the sun and into the house of Gitchie Manitoo.

Gitchie Manitoo heard the eagle land and called out, who is it, that has come to my house here by the sun?

It is I, Migizi, and I have come on behalf of the Anishinaabe. I have heard that you want to destroy them, and I want to know what must be done to save them.

Gitchie Manitoo pondered this and then spoke. You were very brave to come up here and ask for these things. I will not destroy the Anishinaabe, because you care enough for them to come here and ask for me not to do so. Tell them that they must respect all living things, and offer asema, tobacco for the things they must take. Tell them what it means to live the good life.

Migizi turned to go. I will tell them these things.

Gitchie Manitoo thought for another moment and spoke again. Wait. There is one other thing, because you were so brave in comming here to ask me these things, let it be known that you are a teacher and an elder. Those that you fly over will be protected by me. Let it be known also, that have your feathers, your claws, and your visage, or any symbol thereof, are sacred. Any who posess these things will be protected by me. Now go, and teach the Anishinaabe of the good life.

And so, Migizi flew back home, back to the Anishinaabe, and taught them of the good life. And once again, all was in balance. Ho.

I think this legend speaks for itself, and also answers the question as to what the feathers mean, if you carry or wear them, at least as far as the Anishinaabe are concerned.

Miigwech
I have heard this story before. It is beautiful and youre right, it speaks for itself. Thankyou crazywolf. Thats what I love about our native culture, our belief and love for mother earth and her creatures.
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Old 01-25-2005, 10:38 AM   #67
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So what is everyones thought on collected eagle feather pick up off the ground with ceromonie. Under nests. and treated as our fallen Brothers
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Old 01-25-2005, 10:55 AM   #68
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I was thinking about that. There was this person on this website, Riverwoman I think was her name, that said she went down by the dump where she lives and would pick up eagle feathers. Would she have to take four veterans with her and a drum group in order to pick up those feathers? Just kidding.
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Old 01-25-2005, 10:59 AM   #69
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Lightbulb Finding Feathers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Standingbull
So what is everyones thought on collected eagle feather pick up off the ground with ceromonie. Under nests. and treated as our fallen Brothers
In my opinion, finding feathers in a natural setting is an older and more preferred method of gathering feathers of any kind. However, many tribes have certain ceremonial traditions, prayers, rituals, or songs associated with the collection of feathers when they are found, especially if the feathers are still attached to a bird after being zapped by high-tension wires or hit by a truck, etc. This is why I never leave home without taking some loose tobacco with me, because I never know what I may find.
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Old 01-25-2005, 01:28 PM   #70
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This Is A Topic That Is A Comon One.one Can Become Very Confused Reading All This.everyone Has Very Good Points And All Are Entitled To Their Own.all That I Have To Say Is That The Path That We Are All On Is One That Has Been Embeded In Our Blood From The Begining,granted That There Are Alot Of People Out There That Are Just Now Learning About Who They Are And Were They Came From.we All Must Remember To Keep Our Traditions Alive Before They Are Wiped Out Forever.im Reminded Of A Saying That A Dear Friend Of Mine Told Me"we Cant Do Anything About The Past,but We Can Do Eveything That Is Humanly Possible To Preserve What Is Left.and Keep It From Happening Again"(cheif Joe Running Bear)
In My Opinion(every Body Has One) This Is Not A White Way. If They Want To Practace Our Religion Then I Personally Dont Have A Problem With That,but They Donot Deserve The Right To Wear Something That Is So Sacred To Us.we Hold The Eagle In The Highest Regards.he Takes Our Prayers To Wakan-tanka.if They Want Eagle Feathers Then They Need To Buy The Painted Ones.the Waiting List Is Long Enough As Is.i Just Got My I.d Card And The Registry Told Me That It Would Be 4years To Receive My Bird.that Is A Long Time.we Need Them Not The Non-ndns
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Old 01-25-2005, 11:33 PM   #71
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I got dizzy reading that Hop. Capital letters al the way thru.
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Old 01-25-2005, 11:40 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwehnzii
I was thinking about that. There was this person on this website, Riverwoman I think was her name, that said she went down by the dump where she lives and would pick up eagle feathers. Would she have to take four veterans with her and a drum group in order to pick up those feathers? Just kidding.
Ewww! Picking at the dump?? Really??? Talk about desperate!
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Old 01-26-2005, 11:45 AM   #73
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Some Other Points

Everybody is making great points and adding wonderful posts.
As I was reading them and going over the case again a few things struck me.

One was that regardless of what we feel and think we are in a land that "supposedly" protects religious freedom (most of the time that is). Unfortunatley, this Freedom that we have always creates uproar and always will. It was mentioned that perhaps one could take a test - well that reminded me that in some state cases involving Religious Freedom there is a step like "test" - meaning through various evidence (witnesses, etc.) the faith of the person(s) must be shown to be a dire hard part of their life and not just a philosophy, or hobby, or interest, etc. This varies greatly from State to State that uses this concept.

Another, when we speak of Feathers being Sacred and Very Important we must be ready to know that other Faiths will make comparisons about Sacred and Very Important Items. For Example: While we want them to honor and respect our beliefs in the Feathers they would say then why can't we respect and honor their Sacred Items (from living and non living things). Of course this creates a very heated debate on both sides and the law sees it as being very subjective instead of objective.

And I stress again, we all know how Important and Sacred Feathers are to us - but we must always know this varies from Tribe to Tribe and person to person.
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Old 01-26-2005, 10:39 PM   #74
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other feathers

Boozhoo niji,

I just remembered this, reading Toms post. Down here pow wows in Florida are frequented by a well known Tlinget story teller, and there was a heated debate over eagle feathers. I am not sure exactly what the debate was about, but the elder got sick and tired of hearing about it, walked in between the two aruging people and grabbed the eagle feathers and threw them on the ground.

It would seem, that the Tlinget hold the Raven in high regard, more so than either one of the other eagles, so they used the raven feathers as we use eagle feathers, and dont use the eagle feathers for anything.

Just an interesting tidbit I thought I would share.

Derek
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Old 01-27-2005, 12:41 PM   #75
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Other sacred birds.

You are correct, there are many other "sacred" birds among different tribes, and many other Northwest Coast tribes besides the Tlinget, consider the Raven sacred.

Some tribes in the northeast and others in the southeast, hold the Great Blue Heron as a sacred bird. In addition, I'm sure many people know that the Anhinga (aka Water Bird, Water Turkey, or Peyote Bird), as well as the Scissortail Flycatcher, and the Yellowhammer (aka Yellow-Shafted Flicker), are sacred birds amongst NAC (Native American Church) members. Let's not forget the Hawk family of birds either. Many Hawk species are sacred to different tribes for different reasons.

However, I would not condone throwing feathers of any bird on the ground in anger. That's just wrong.
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Old 01-27-2005, 04:22 PM   #76
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Reading with interest the thread. Some points about this case. 141 eagle feathers in possession is not for religious purposes but more of a defense issue to try to find a way out of the charges. Speaking as someone who works on Navajo Nation and has patroled eagle gathering season in past years, Hopi can never get enough eagle feathers for their cerimonies. That this man claims it was given to him by a Hopi elder does not sound authentic. I have seen many persons poach eagles and sell the feathers on the black market. Have seen anglo people go into eagle nests and kill the eaglets for their down feathers. Many have taken pictures of themselves in the act wearing arm length leather gloves and hanging on a rope. It sounds like this guy was caught with a lot of feathers and is trying to find a technicality to lessen or eliminate the charges. There are many anglos who reside near reservations looking for objects of culture to buy or steal because owning and selling on the black market with the right connections can net much $$$. I would like to see this gentelman prosecuted because eagle feathers are scarce. I absoulutely cherish each feather that I have for society use and each one is like a personal friend to me. Just my opnion.
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Old 01-28-2005, 10:13 AM   #77
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I spend alot of time in the woods running my sleddogs in northern Michigan, I know where there is alot of Eagle nest, In all the years of whatching them and their nests I have only collected 6 wing feathers off the ground. I have found allot of hawks allong side the road that are killed from them trying to eat road kill but not Eagles.These are speacle moments finding these few feathers like looking for gold. I have to say to have many more feathers seems like it would be impossible with out killing them. But I feel very blessed to have my 6 in 43 years.
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Old 02-07-2005, 04:23 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazywolf
Boozhoo niji,

I posted what I did, because I had a question on the facts of the laws and I also wanted to hear what the elders teach us. Me being in Florida, which stinks, I dont get to hear much from Elders, because most of them are in the North. So I take what I can get, when I go up there every year for a couple of weeks.

I didnt want this to become a heated debate. I really didnt and I am sorry for starting it. We should come together as nations instead of spreading further apart and drawing lines in the sand. I mean that is more like the motto of the white man, to divide and conquer. Well from where I sit I can clearly see we are divided but at least we are not yet conquered.

If we could all figure out how to come together then it would indeed be a strength our people could use. What better a way than to come together under Migizi, the eagle.

Derek
i agree we all should start using turkey feathers before this gets out of hand on the other side this issue is a good heat vent did the govt do this so we could turn on each other think about this were starting to gossip and talk **** due to some ****ing idiots lets move on and live life to the fullest
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Old 02-08-2005, 09:56 AM   #79
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Isn't it nice that we bow down to the feds to set the laws that govern our way of life. I guess we should all send Uncle a thank you card for taking such good care of us. And I guess the Great Eagle doesn't know where to leave a feather and who to leave it to. I am so glad the government can measure our blood and tell us who is and who isn't. I'm sure we will look someone up and ask to see their Fed Card to make sure they are INDIAN then give them and Eagle feather that was given to them. Bow if you like. I won't
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Old 06-30-2005, 03:56 PM   #80
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Unhappy I hear you crazywolf....

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazywolf
... I... on the other hand, do not have a high enough blood quantum to be an enrolled member...

She can apply for these feathers as mentioned in the thread, I cannot, but I am her son. Now if she did apply for them, and she dies then what is to become of the feathers?
...
Also, what are you supposed to do if an elder offers to give you a feather, and I am not just talking about an elder as in older than you, I mean someone that is a legitimate spiritual advisor of the tribe.
...
I'm in the same boat with the blood quantum, but I don't expect any special considerations on my part. I don't expect any spiritual elders to go offering me any feathers of protected species (eagles are not the only ones), and if offered any, I will pass them on to someone who is more entitled to have them than me.

You have a good question about about your mother's feathers and what to do if a spiritual elder offers you a feather. And I see that no one has really addressed that issue here. Personally I cannot advise you about what you should do in either situation. I think it depends on your tribe; your spiritual elders should help you in that matter.

I am proud of my native heritage, but I am also saddened by the misuse of native culture by non-natives and natives alike. Unfortunately misuse of any ceremonies and practices is not endemic to native culture, it is universal.

As for picking up any feathers in a natural situation, I offer them to the Creator and thank Creator and the bird for sharing them with me.... a blessing ceremony. So far I haven't found feathers of any protected species in a natural situation.

May our peoples learn to get along with each other and learn our peoples' cutural traditions as they should be. Koshe kakwa aho
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