Register Groups Members List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Forum Home - Go Back > General > Native Life > Native Issues Fight focuses on who can use eagle feathers Fight focuses on who can use eagle feathers

Reply LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 05-18-2008, 09:58 PM   #81
its to cold up here
 
legalstraight's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
legalstraight has a reputation beyond reputelegalstraight has a reputation beyond repute
legalstraight has a reputation beyond reputelegalstraight has a reputation beyond reputelegalstraight has a reputation beyond reputelegalstraight has a reputation beyond reputelegalstraight has a reputation beyond reputelegalstraight has a reputation beyond reputelegalstraight has a reputation beyond reputelegalstraight has a reputation beyond reputelegalstraight has a reputation beyond reputelegalstraight has a reputation beyond reputelegalstraight has a reputation beyond reputelegalstraight has a reputation beyond reputelegalstraight has a reputation beyond reputelegalstraight has a reputation beyond reputelegalstraight has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 341
Credits: 599.56
Savings: 0.00
Let me update this for everyone now. The 9th and 10th Circuits have both ruled on this issue now. The 9th Circuit case involved non-indians who were arrested for possessing eagle feathers. They were busted because DNR/Fish and Game were following up leads about eagles from a Zoo who had been killed and removed from the zoo.
The 10th Circuit case involved an enrolled Arapahoe (my apologies on spelling it is not a tribe I deal with regularly). In that case the gentleman involved had shot an eagle to use as part of their sundance. They presented evidence that the repository system could not have provided them with an eagle which had been taken in a "proper" way. (I am paraphrasing the case).
In both cases the courts held that the Religious Freedom Restoration Act would not prevent the prosecution. The reasoning behind this is long and somewhat drawn out but end result:

If you don't have an eagle card (this is above and beyond a tribal ID) don't possess feathers.
legalstraight is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 05-16-2010, 07:15 PM   #82
Tiny Tot Dancer
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Oldernighthawk has a reputation beyond repute
Oldernighthawk has a reputation beyond reputeOldernighthawk has a reputation beyond reputeOldernighthawk has a reputation beyond reputeOldernighthawk has a reputation beyond reputeOldernighthawk has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Mossy Head Florida
Posts: 63
Credits: 0.00
Savings: 0.00
What Tribe is alowed the Eagle Feather?

In my blood line is a tribe that to my knowledge hass no full bloods left. It was for the most part killed of by both the US and Mexican governments. Also as near as I can tell the US government does not reconisze this branch of the Apache family though it was in the Big Bend area of Texas and south into Mexico. For this reason and the fact that the government has only told the Natives the truth on time ," We are going to take your land," I feel that they should take a long walk off of a short pier!
Oldernighthawk is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 05-19-2010, 04:55 AM   #83
Pow Wow Visitor
 
Corvid's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Corvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond repute
Corvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 51
Credits: 614.40
Savings: 0.00
I'm just beginning to learn a lot of things about native(Ojibwe) culture, not having been raised this way, so I can't put a whole lot into this conversation, but I was told all birds are messengers... that makes a turkey's feathers just as useful as an eagle's. I'm not tribally registered so I can't have eagle/hawk/etc feathers, so I use other feathers. I made a smudge feather with a turkey feather, and if I were to ever make anything else I'd either use turkey or parrot feathers. Not a big deal. I don't know why other people- non-natives- can't just do the same and be content with it. I know the eagle is a very sacred bird, and feathers are sought and needed for ceremonies, and they have always been used and held sacred in Native culture, so I can understand wanting them within the tribes... but why go through all this nonsense if you're not Native? Why not just use other feathers?

That said, if I ever came across a hawk or an eagle feather while just wandering around, I'd be tempted to leave tobacco and pick it up. A gift is a gift, if you find it in nature, why refuse it because some old guys in suits say you should? But that's the only exception in my opinion... I'm against illegal trading or selling and, god forbid, poaching, just to possess feathers.

Last edited by Corvid; 05-19-2010 at 05:02 AM..
Corvid is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 05-19-2010, 04:56 AM   #84
Pow Wow Visitor
 
Corvid's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Corvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond repute
Corvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 51
Credits: 614.40
Savings: 0.00
-

Last edited by Corvid; 05-19-2010 at 05:07 AM.. Reason: double-posted
Corvid is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 05-20-2010, 01:14 AM   #85
Tiny Tot Dancer
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Oldernighthawk has a reputation beyond repute
Oldernighthawk has a reputation beyond reputeOldernighthawk has a reputation beyond reputeOldernighthawk has a reputation beyond reputeOldernighthawk has a reputation beyond reputeOldernighthawk has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Mossy Head Florida
Posts: 63
Credits: 0.00
Savings: 0.00
The government is out of line.

Corvid , I am with you , but again what right does some government hack have in steping on a persons religion? SingingDeer in your case neither you nor your mother is being treated fairly in that some government hack decides that you do not have pure enough blood to have certain feathers. I wore my countrys military uniform for 20+ because I believed in your rights! The blood purity is a reminder of what Hitler was about! No I do not advocate just letting every one go kill , but by the same token if I find a feather that is a natural molt I feel that The Creater gifted that feather to me and that my rights are being treated the same as many of our ancesters tribes and are being eradicated! Standingbull yours is a case in point you did no damage yet again some government hack wants to step on your rights. If some one is killing to make money they are wrong and should be punished. I have 1 Eagle feather that was gifted to my yonger son who gifted it to me. Both he and a Game warden near Fort Drum saw the Eagle hit by a car that did not stop . The game warden was also going to school to become a vetanerian and the two of them worked for over a hour to save the bird ,when they failed 1 feather was gifted to my son . The rest was turned in as required , why should this be a crime? The game warden was of , but would not specify which native tribe because of the law.
Oldernighthawk is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 05-20-2010, 11:41 PM   #86
Self-Righteous Injun
 
Zeke's Avatar
 
Items Treasure ChestPresentTreasure ChestPresent
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Zeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond repute
Zeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lewiston, ID
Posts: 2,447
Credits: 17,980.51
Savings: 1.00
Reality is that the entire eagle feather farce is hypocritical.

Why?

Statement One: We're a sovereign nation! I don't want no Federal government up in my business. We run things! Etc.

Statement Two: The Feds have the ability to determine both who is Native and -- for the purpose of offering rights -- what they can possess or obtain.

Seems an oxymoron, to me.

It may hack some Natives off that "white folks" have feathers. It would hack me off, significantly more, to believe that I looked to the Great White Father to regulate them.

BAH.
Zeke is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 05-21-2010, 04:07 AM   #87
Pow Wow Visitor
 
Corvid's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Corvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond repute
Corvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond reputeCorvid has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 51
Credits: 614.40
Savings: 0.00
Then as sovereign nations it's up to the people to make the law, and decide who can and can't possess eagle feathers and other things. You could give away feathers to whoever you felt like, Native or not, and the government technically couldn't do anything about it. But anyone try that, and see what happens... the term 'sovereign' seems to be a joke to the US government where Natives are concerned.
Corvid is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 05-21-2010, 10:36 AM   #88
Pow Wow Committee
 
OLChemist's Avatar
 
Items ElephantPresent
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
OLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond repute
OLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,370
Credits: 72,451.22
Savings: 0.00
With all due respect Zeke your argument is facile. My non-lawyer understanding is:

The reality is the legal gymnastics of "domestic dependent nations" definition restricts tribal sovereignty, placing it at a level similar to the states. The MBTA usurps the states rights to regulate the taking of species listed in the act. Same for tribes. The feds have effectively prohibited everyone from taking feathers.

In order to attempt to accommodate Native religious requirements, they have extended an exception to the tribes. Rather than become the religious police determining whose beliefs are legitimate, they have decided tribal membership and tribal religious practice go hand in hand. So to get a permit, you have to be an enrolled member of a federally recognized. Tribes control their enrollment criteria. The BIA controls who gets a CDIB but not who is enrolled. A CDIB won't get you a permit.

The issuing of permits only to tribal members is acknowledging the right of tribes to determine who is a citizen of the tribe.

Now, we can debate the fairness of the system, or whether American conceptions of religion are biased toward orthodoxy vs orthopraxy. We can argue about federal recognition or the fairness of tribal enrollment requirements. Or even enculturation vs blood. But feather access should not be confounded with these issues.
OLChemist is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 05-21-2010, 01:57 PM   #89
Self-Righteous Injun
 
Zeke's Avatar
 
Items Treasure ChestPresentTreasure ChestPresent
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Zeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond repute
Zeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lewiston, ID
Posts: 2,447
Credits: 17,980.51
Savings: 1.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
With all due respect Zeke your argument is facile.
With all due respect, you're missing the point. (And playing the lapdog.)

Who controls whether tribes are recognized?

The foundational mantra of our legalized existence is based in the pre-supposition that the Great White Father will grant us status: which can be rescinded at any time.

Look at your own statement, for example. "They have decided tribal membership and tribal religious practice go hand in hand." (We all know who they are, right? Do you appreciate them deciding, anything?)

Seriously? Whose argument is facile?

Because you don't seem to have a problem with that.

I DO.

Last edited by Zeke; 05-21-2010 at 02:01 PM..
Zeke is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 05-21-2010, 03:53 PM   #90
One more push-up,Please!
 
lostsalt's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
lostsalt has a reputation beyond reputelostsalt has a reputation beyond repute
lostsalt has a reputation beyond reputelostsalt has a reputation beyond reputelostsalt has a reputation beyond reputelostsalt has a reputation beyond reputelostsalt has a reputation beyond reputelostsalt has a reputation beyond reputelostsalt has a reputation beyond reputelostsalt has a reputation beyond reputelostsalt has a reputation beyond reputelostsalt has a reputation beyond reputelostsalt has a reputation beyond reputelostsalt has a reputation beyond reputelostsalt has a reputation beyond reputelostsalt has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: where the missouri & kaw rivers meet
Posts: 492
Credits: 3,730.53
Savings: 0.00
I guess i'll get called an *** for this or worse but......
Quite frankly, this whole thing is a farce!
Only Fed Enrolled NDNs can be in possession of eagle feathers... why/ only them?
So an enrolled Seminole can have a full double golden eagle bustle to compete at Gathering or wherever. To my knowledge, pretty sure the Seminoles never used the Golden Eagle in their religious practices. (Insert other examples here,).

If it is truly about the religious part of it, then I as an American, with the right to freedom of religon, should be able to apply for a permit for possession of eagle feathers as well.

I can feel the blood boiling in all you legitimate eagle owners bellies. That is sacrilege!!!!!!!!!!
Whiteman with eagles

Some will say "we have shared the powwow culture with all native tribes, therefore they have the right"

Well.... you have shared them with all races to, whites included.

Now ... some of ya' ll will hate me for saying this stuff... but you know its true!
How many of the legally owned eagle feathers are actually used for religious purposes.

My $0.02
LS
__________________
"Now remember, things look bad and it looks like you're not gonna make it, then you gotta get mean. I mean plumb, mad-dog mean. 'Cause if you lose your head and you give up then you neither live nor win. That's just the way it is." JW
lostsalt is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 05-21-2010, 04:21 PM   #91
Self-Righteous Injun
 
Zeke's Avatar
 
Items Treasure ChestPresentTreasure ChestPresent
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Zeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond repute
Zeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lewiston, ID
Posts: 2,447
Credits: 17,980.51
Savings: 1.00
Lostsalt: Preach it, brother!!

"AMEN."
Zeke is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 05-21-2010, 04:26 PM   #92
crazywolf
 
crazywolf's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
crazywolf has a reputation beyond reputecrazywolf has a reputation beyond reputecrazywolf has a reputation beyond reputecrazywolf has a reputation beyond reputecrazywolf has a reputation beyond reputecrazywolf has a reputation beyond reputecrazywolf has a reputation beyond reputecrazywolf has a reputation beyond reputecrazywolf has a reputation beyond reputecrazywolf has a reputation beyond reputecrazywolf has a reputation beyond reputecrazywolf has a reputation beyond reputecrazywolf has a reputation beyond reputecrazywolf has a reputation beyond reputecrazywolf has a reputation beyond reputecrazywolf has a reputation beyond reputecrazywolf has a reputation beyond reputecrazywolf has a reputation beyond reputecrazywolf has a reputation beyond reputecrazywolf has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Detroit Lakes, MN
Posts: 908
Blog Entries: 7
Credits: 338.47
Savings: 1.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLChemist View Post
With all due respect Zeke your argument is facile. My non-lawyer understanding is:

The reality is the legal gymnastics of "domestic dependent nations" definition restricts tribal sovereignty, placing it at a level similar to the states. The MBTA usurps the states rights to regulate the taking of species listed in the act. Same for tribes. The feds have effectively prohibited everyone from taking feathers.

In order to attempt to accommodate Native religious requirements, they have extended an exception to the tribes. Rather than become the religious police determining whose beliefs are legitimate, they have decided tribal membership and tribal religious practice go hand in hand. So to get a permit, you have to be an enrolled member of a federally recognized. Tribes control their enrollment criteria. The BIA controls who gets a CDIB but not who is enrolled. A CDIB won't get you a permit.

The issuing of permits only to tribal members is acknowledging the right of tribes to determine who is a citizen of the tribe.

Now, we can debate the fairness of the system, or whether American conceptions of religion are biased toward orthodoxy vs orthopraxy. We can argue about federal recognition or the fairness of tribal enrollment requirements. Or even enculturation vs blood. But feather access should not be confounded with these issues.
This kind of thing is in heated debate in our nation today. They are going through constitution reform and waiting to see if the new constitution is ratified by the voters. I am afraid it will not be. One of the things in the new constitution will determine who has the right to be enrolled. It basically does away with blood quantum on our reservation. But there are other things in the constitution that many of the members of the tribe disagree with. If this constitution is not passed then my hopes of legally possessing eagle feathers goes poof with it.

I have spoken with many enrolled members, many of whom disagree with blood quantum, and also disagree with who has the right to possess eagle feathers. Many of them do not recognize the government laws.

So here it is, that I am at a pow wow, and I pass tobacco to ask an elder to take me on a fast so that I can determine exactly who I am. He accepts, and I go to Canada to go fast. He takes me out to an island, and gives me an eagle feather to pray with. I go on my fast and return, but I stated I must leave the eagle feather behind because they will search me at the border. In addition to not having tribal enrollment, I also do not have a passport, so am subject to being searched. Yeah, you see where this is going, federal officers searching my car. So he went ahead of me, with the feather, and I followed, got searched and released, and we met out of sight where he returned the feather.

Now myself, I live off res, and with no card or credentials or anything and until I do, I have to wait and have someone hold onto these feathers for me.

Life sucks if your an ndn and cant prove it. Oh and btw, for those that do not know me, my mother was an enrolled member. Blood quantum sucks too.

Derek
__________________
I believe in something I want to believe, not what someone wants me to believe.
crazywolf is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 05-21-2010, 04:30 PM   #93
Self-Righteous Injun
 
Zeke's Avatar
 
Items Treasure ChestPresentTreasure ChestPresent
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Zeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond repute
Zeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lewiston, ID
Posts: 2,447
Credits: 17,980.51
Savings: 1.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazywolf View Post
Life sucks if your an ndn and cant prove it.
Life sucks that we have to.

Of course, do you know why we have to? Other Indians.

In truth, the Federales don't give a d-a-m-n about ~0.5% of the general population or crappy Reserve Land in South Dakota or Arizona...

I'm serious. If other Natives weren't whining about spoils, there'd be no whining: or quantum.
Zeke is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 05-21-2010, 04:51 PM   #94
crazywolf
 
crazywolf's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
crazywolf has a reputation beyond reputecrazywolf has a reputation beyond reputecrazywolf has a reputation beyond reputecrazywolf has a reputation beyond reputecrazywolf has a reputation beyond reputecrazywolf has a reputation beyond reputecrazywolf has a reputation beyond reputecrazywolf has a reputation beyond reputecrazywolf has a reputation beyond reputecrazywolf has a reputation beyond reputecrazywolf has a reputation beyond reputecrazywolf has a reputation beyond reputecrazywolf has a reputation beyond reputecrazywolf has a reputation beyond reputecrazywolf has a reputation beyond reputecrazywolf has a reputation beyond reputecrazywolf has a reputation beyond reputecrazywolf has a reputation beyond reputecrazywolf has a reputation beyond reputecrazywolf has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Detroit Lakes, MN
Posts: 908
Blog Entries: 7
Credits: 338.47
Savings: 1.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Life sucks that we have to.

Of course, do you know why we have to? Other Indians.

In truth, the Federales don't give a d-a-m-n about ~0.5% of the general population or crappy Reserve Land in South Dakota or Arizona...

I'm serious. If other Natives weren't whining about spoils, there'd be no whining: or quantum.
You would know that is not true if you knew more about our history. The Ojibwe fought blood quantum a lot longer that other tribes. The government sent a team of scientists and archaeologists to ask us questions about hair color, eye color and skin color. They considered people that had a lighter tone of skin to have a lesser blood quantum that the rest. The Ojibwe became very evasive after the government started to ask these questions, they wanted to force out an answer that was to their liking, and a lot of people that were full bloods ended up being called half or quarter instead. The idea of blood quantum was not passed into law for our people until the late 60's, sorry, cannot remember the exact year.

And if what you say is true, then why is our nation trying to pass a new constitution to abolish blood quantum? How come most of the people I speak to on the reservation do not agree with blood quantum, including the ones that do receive federal benefits.
__________________
I believe in something I want to believe, not what someone wants me to believe.
crazywolf is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 05-21-2010, 04:57 PM   #95
Ugh. As. If.
 
Grits & Beans's Avatar
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Grits & Beans has a reputation beyond reputeGrits & Beans has a reputation beyond reputeGrits & Beans has a reputation beyond repute
Grits & Beans has a reputation beyond reputeGrits & Beans has a reputation beyond reputeGrits & Beans has a reputation beyond reputeGrits & Beans has a reputation beyond reputeGrits & Beans has a reputation beyond reputeGrits & Beans has a reputation beyond reputeGrits & Beans has a reputation beyond reputeGrits & Beans has a reputation beyond reputeGrits & Beans has a reputation beyond reputeGrits & Beans has a reputation beyond reputeGrits & Beans has a reputation beyond reputeGrits & Beans has a reputation beyond reputeGrits & Beans has a reputation beyond reputeGrits & Beans has a reputation beyond reputeGrits & Beans has a reputation beyond reputeGrits & Beans has a reputation beyond reputeGrits & Beans has a reputation beyond reputeGrits & Beans has a reputation beyond reputeGrits & Beans has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: minneapolis
Posts: 32,535
Credits: 9,552.42
Savings: 1.00
i have no idea why some go against their natural instincts and go swimming with sharks...this is getting interesting lol
Grits & Beans is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 05-21-2010, 05:25 PM   #96
Self-Righteous Injun
 
Zeke's Avatar
 
Items Treasure ChestPresentTreasure ChestPresent
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Zeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond repute
Zeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lewiston, ID
Posts: 2,447
Credits: 17,980.51
Savings: 1.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by crazywolf View Post
The idea of blood quantum was not passed into law for our people until the late 60's, sorry, cannot remember the exact year.
The point being, it was passed. Willingly. For spoils.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazywolf View Post
And if what you say is true, then why is our nation trying to pass a new constitution to abolish blood quantum?
Because now, after making such a foolish decision to begin with, based in spoils, you're running out of it.

Really, am I the only person seeing this?

Do you not know your own history or are you just unwilling to logically scrutinize it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by crazywolf View Post
How come most of the people I speak to on the reservation do not agree with blood quantum, including the ones that do receive federal benefits.
Because their spoils are based in being a reservation lapdog, tied to their "yard," and quantum isn't a determinative factor.

Last edited by Zeke; 05-21-2010 at 05:39 PM..
Zeke is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 05-21-2010, 10:29 PM   #97
Tiny Tot Dancer
 
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Oldernighthawk has a reputation beyond repute
Oldernighthawk has a reputation beyond reputeOldernighthawk has a reputation beyond reputeOldernighthawk has a reputation beyond reputeOldernighthawk has a reputation beyond reputeOldernighthawk has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Mossy Head Florida
Posts: 63
Credits: 0.00
Savings: 0.00
Can we find a comon ground?

Zeke you have some very good strong points , how ever I have to look at the points made by ,Corvid , OlChemist , lostsalt , crazywolf , legalstraight , and SingingDeer . As I have previously stated I am against a government hack deciding what I can or can not have . Several from diferent tribal nations have seen my feather and knowing the story behind aprove or at least seem to aprove of my keeping it. Also during the 20+ that I wore the uniform of my country I was repeatedly told we are about the rights of the people . If we the people have our rights stricken from us by some government hack the they are wrong then they are wrong . I would not be happy but if I were told by an NDN elder that I was violating their belief then I would feel that I had to surender the feather to them . NOT SOME GOVERNMENT HACK !
Oldernighthawk is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 05-21-2010, 10:47 PM   #98
Pow Wow Committee
 
OLChemist's Avatar
 
Items ElephantPresent
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
OLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond repute
OLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,370
Credits: 72,451.22
Savings: 0.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
With all due respect, you're missing the point.
Missing it, no. I'll concede that I explained it poorly. What I was trying to say is discussion of feather law is separate from -- although related to -- discussions of tribal sovereignty. Feather law gives a passing, albeit probably accidental, acknowledgement of a tribes right to determine it's own membership.

Feather access devolves for the feds and how they define it. That isn't going to change as long as they are hunted for gain -- by anyone regardless of race -- killed as predators, lost to power lines, or restricted by habitat loss. Until that day the feds are going to be in the religion business. If you have come up with a unexploitable system which wouldn't impede free exercise please share.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
The foundational mantra of our legalized existence is based in the pre-supposition that the Great White Father will grant us status: which can be rescinded at any time.
But isn't that the foundational mantra of any political entity that has a reciprocal relationship with federal and/or state powers? My state was recognized by the federal government -- albeit by a convoluted process which I'm sure any real Texan on this board can explain to you in far more detail than you could ever want. Counties, municipalities, towns, cities, townships, etc are all recognized by the states and feds. They are legal definitions of households, families and marriages. All of these entities have various criteria for recognition. And with recognition comes benefits and obligations of various sorts. How is this different?

Sure the feds can disrupt or suspend the relationship with tribes or cites or states. They can and have interfered with a state or two's sovereignty; as I recall there was one war fought over differing interpretations of states rights. Rights of organizations, individuals, states, etc can be suspended. We could be nuked by Al Quaida. Are you planning on renouncing your citizenship over rights lost to the Patriot Act or Obamacare?

You seem to blame tribes for taking advantage the system. They didn't ask to be invaded. Our past leaders tried to make the best decisions they could when they entered into treaty relationships with the US. They felt they offered the best chance for physical and spiritual survival.

Yes, its half a loaf. But, I'm going to take that half a loaf and make peanut butter sandwiches for my nieces and nephews. I'm going teach, pray, and work for a better day. I'm going to support tribal business initiatives, infrastructure development, cultural preservation, education, and anything else that will build us into a economic base that can stand on something other than ancient paper. And when we buy back parts of our Black Hills and drive a bulldozer through the middle of Whiteclay, I'll gladly watch the cards torn to pieces. (I'll also throw down a five to have my picture taken outside Mt Rushmore with an endangered white farmer.)

Now, I do agree that blood quanta is a poor reed. It wasn't my people's way of reckoning membership before the white man. It poses a real risk to the political survival of tribes. I don't see exactly how to structure a system which would keep out those just looking for the free ride they imagine Indians have. But, I do think other methods of determining citizenship deserves serious consideration by the tribes. But once they decide, if we really believe in tribal sovereignty, then the whining is done even if we're out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
...crappy Reserve Land in South Dakota or Arizona...
I'd ask that you quit attacking tribal lands. That "crappy" land in SD, is the land where my ancestor's bones reside. It's geography, fora, and fauna is woven into the very stories that are part of the culture and language that, if I am understanding correctly, you'd use to determine membership. My culture teaches powers are attached to places. I can't be who I am without that land. This does not mean, I have to stay in the "yard", but it does mean the land needs to not be a car park or strip mine. Tribal political power -- imperfect and tenuous as it may be -- prevents that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lostsalt View Post
How many of the legally owned eagle feathers are actually used for religious purposes.
Sadly, you do have to ask.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
(And playing the lapdog.)
Ahh, I can always count on Zeke for a dog reference. Not lapdog. Please, grouchy female pit bull -- and we all know that is spelled with five letters.
OLChemist is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 05-21-2010, 11:54 PM   #99
Self-Righteous Injun
 
Zeke's Avatar
 
Items Treasure ChestPresentTreasure ChestPresent
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
Zeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond repute
Zeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond reputeZeke has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Lewiston, ID
Posts: 2,447
Credits: 17,980.51
Savings: 1.00
Good post, no issues.

But let's understand something and deal in the Real World: what you claim as "tribal land," isn't. It's Federal Reserve land, it IS crappy, and the only true connection, there, is defeat.

When we cease to let 1876 define us, we'll grow.

The only "bones" that matter are ours. What we do with them is not predicated upon what came before, the Old Ones are gone. The Old Way, is gone. It's NOT coming back.

As for blaming tribes for "taking advantage of the system?" Uh, no. I blame them for falling prey and not REJECTING it.

Last edited by Zeke; 05-22-2010 at 12:00 AM..
Zeke is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Old 05-22-2010, 12:47 AM   #100
Pow Wow Committee
 
OLChemist's Avatar
 
Items ElephantPresent
User InfoThanks / Tagging InfoGifts / Achievements / AwardsvBActivity Stats
OLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond repute
OLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond reputeOLChemist has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 3,370
Credits: 72,451.22
Savings: 0.00
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Good post, no issues.
Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
What we do with them is not predicated upon what came before, the Old Ones are gone. The Old Way, is gone. It's NOT coming back.
How gone are the ancestors depends on your take on the fate and location of soul after death.

The old economy is indeed gone, never to return. But the old values are not. There is much in our traditional values to use as tools in the modern world. In my opinion, much of the dysfunction that afflicts our communities results from confounding poverty culture and familial dysfunction with traditional Native culture and family structure. We need to look to our traditions to rebuilt the barriers that protected our woman and children. Are there ideas that are outmoded and pathological under modern circumstances? Yes and it is our responsibility to discard those. But to throw the whole thing away, would destroy the tribes faster than the government ever could.

Last edited by OLChemist; 05-22-2010 at 10:21 AM.. Reason: Yikes, if I could type, I'd be dangerous.
OLChemist is offline   Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Sponsored Links
Reply

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Using eagle feathers as hackle bustle spikes? grayback Fancy Feather Dancing 14 06-25-2013 09:45 PM
Eagle feathers, how do you clean them? eaglevoice.net Pow Wow Singing 5 11-24-2002 03:14 PM
CAN WE BRING EAGLE FEATHERS 'CROSS BORDER??? BigBearStyle Archives 6 06-06-2001 04:19 AM
dropped eagle feathers snoochiebooches Pow Wow Singing 1 04-04-2001 12:25 PM
Finding straight feathers Majii Archives 16 07-06-2000 08:21 PM

    

Join the online community forum celebrating Native American Culture, Pow Wows, tribes, music, art, and history.

Join PowWows.com Today!

Your Guide to Native American Pow Wows Since 1996

Register For Free

Enjoy the benefits of being a member of PowWows.com!

Join our Native American online community focused on Pow Wow singing, dancing, crafts, Native American music, Native American videos, and more.

Add your Pow Wow to our Calendar

Share your photos and videos

Play games, enter contests, and much more!






New Threads

Pow Wow Calendar Search

 
Month: Year:

Location:

Videos

Featured Articles

Dance Styles

Crafts

Gallery