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Old 11-28-2009, 11:54 PM   #61
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Simple as this : It is the inevitable result of the lack of natives to wake-up and take control of their fate. The native youth don't want to be NDN 'cause being NDN is boring and painful .... they want to be Gangsters and thugs... 'cause that makes them feel strong..

"All beings seek, above all else, to discharge their strength..."

They are "proving to the world their abilities" by "discharging their strength" via gang activities...

Pine Ridge has gangs BECAUSE they refused to settle the Black Hills lawsuit for the tens of millions of dollars...

.. they never used the money to set up programs and infa-structures...

... in short, the very "traditionalism" which these gangsters threaten is the very thing which MADE THEM...

Pan-Indianism makes gangsters... because young people, especially young men, NEED to discharge their strength...

... and the native community (read: the Rez) FAILED them...


So, now that it has happened--- you have to accept them as they are : Gangsters.

If the community actually gets around to FIXING its problems, then maybe the next generation will become "The Red Hope" and not another batch of thugs.

My take ?

I treat them a they are... Thugs and Gangsters..... and I won't pull any punches or make any excuses for them..

Their communities and reservations have FAILED and IGNORED them...

... I won't disrespect them in the same way..

I will acknowledge them as gangsters (an attempt at being a warrior, albeit a sad one) and I will treat them as that.

You failed to implant "native ways" into their mind stream (and thus they became Blindians (NDNs who want to be black gangsters) ----

---- don't disrespect them even more by trying to un-gangster them...

This is the result of our actions...

... take a good look... a LONG good look..

... WE failed them...

and now they fail us.

The circle is unbroken.
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Old 11-29-2009, 01:17 PM   #62
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The circle is unbroken? Concur. Those without Vision own this.

There's a great thread on this site, somewhere, where this radical guy named "Zeke" made a strong case in reference to what should be done with the Black Hills $$$ offer. I seem to recall it had something to do with accepting the $$$, sending kids to school -- a real school, not the black hole that is Haskell -- and/or using funds to manufacture some self-sufficiency.

If I recall, this guy was soundly met with a chorus of self-righteous "boo's."

It's hard to see outside of your cage, even harder to convince your children there's an outside world, when you cannot perceive it, yourself.

So, in a way, these thugs were "failed." But lets understand something. When a poor Master creates a dog that bites humans, it is the Master's fault: but you still have to shoot the dog.

Those without Vision own what has occurred and their offspring pay the price.

No sympathy. This was a choice, not fate.

Last edited by Zeke; 11-29-2009 at 01:34 PM..
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Old 11-29-2009, 08:25 PM   #63
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Concur... this is what I meant by "I will acknowledge and treat the gangsters AS gangsters"....

... meaning that I won't pull punches nor will I give away rights/properties to them in some confused effort to "make things right"...

no.. its too late for that.

The gangster mentality CAN be over-come, but that choice...that path... has to be taken and walked by the person themselves... you can never force or trick someone into leaving the gang life...

Why ? Because it was their CHOICE that got them in ... and it takes their CHOICE to get them out. And this choice was supported and fed by the community.

But yea.... I was directly refering to the Blackhills postings... and how the Lakota need to take the money and use it to keep this kind of bullshyt from happening.

Don't sit there and FORCE your kids to live through the child-abuse known as "Growing up on Pine Ridge" and then wonder why they gang-bang and don't give a phuk ....

So yea.. we have to shoot the dog, but we should never forget who was suppose to be in control of the dog.
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Old 11-29-2009, 08:27 PM   #64
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The sick and sad part of this all is that I am half-convinced that the elders and communtity leaders might actually SUPPORT the gangster lifestyle coming to the reservation so they can use it to further their "poor us" mentality.

That is child abuse in the most purest form.

If they truly don't support it... and they want it gone.. then they need to eliminate the causes that produce it..


Chief among those causes is : POVERTY and LACK OF EDUCATION

This can be solved easily : Take the Money and use it to bring Pine Ridge into the modern era and provide PROPER education and resources for your kids.

What is more important ? The "image of the last indians holding out" or welfare of your children?

Last edited by IlnuSoldier; 11-29-2009 at 08:29 PM..
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Old 11-29-2009, 10:51 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IlnuSoldier View Post
What is more important ? The "image of the last indians holding out" or welfare of your children?
Careful with the intelligent pragmatism, as you're likely to anger a "Traditionalist."
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Old 11-30-2009, 10:11 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IlnuSoldier View Post
Concur... this is what I meant by "I will acknowledge and treat the gangsters AS gangsters"....

... meaning that I won't pull punches nor will I give away rights/properties to them in some confused effort to "make things right"...

no.. its too late for that.

The gangster mentality CAN be over-come, but that choice...that path... has to be taken and walked by the person themselves... you can never force or trick someone into leaving the gang life...

Why ? Because it was their CHOICE that got them in ... and it takes their CHOICE to get them out. And this choice was supported and fed by the community.

But yea.... I was directly refering to the Blackhills postings... and how the Lakota need to take the money and use it to keep this kind of bullshyt from happening.

Don't sit there and FORCE your kids to live through the child-abuse known as "Growing up on Pine Ridge" and then wonder why they gang-bang and don't give a phuk ....

So yea.. we have to shoot the dog, but we should never forget who was suppose to be in control of the dog.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
Careful with the intelligent pragmatism, as you're likely to anger a "Traditionalist."
Maybe you two would like to go to the 'zoo' known as Pine Ridge with a Bic lighter and a can of gas and volunteer to burn this place down to get rid of the animals known as gangsters.

This is the bull**** I was talking about, Zeke. You and Igloo soldier get on here, belittle Indian people with your condescending remarks...

AND YOU AIN'T GONNA DO ANYTHING ABOUT THE PROBLEM EXCEPT RUN YOUR MOUTHS!

If both of you are such badassses, get your lighter and gas, start at Big Bat's, head out towards Wolf Creek, turn around, head up to Oglala, past Loneman and up to Cuny Table and Redshirt leaving this trail of burning destruction behind you. Wait, it's already been tried...

By the Fvcken white man!


You two heroes make me sick.

P.S. There are no gangsters in Pine Ridge. Just undisciplined children and young adults. SPANK THE **** OUT OF THEM! It works.
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Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


"When I was young man I did some dumb things and the elders would talk to me. Sometimes I listened. Time went by and as I looked around...I was the elder".

Mr. Rossie Freeman

Last edited by Joe's Dad; 11-30-2009 at 10:14 AM..
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Old 11-30-2009, 12:52 PM   #67
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AND YOU AIN'T GONNA DO ANYTHING ABOUT THE PROBLEM EXCEPT RUN YOUR MOUTHS!
You miss the point.

It's not my job to do anything about this -- beyond specifically stating that such waiting-for-Natural-Selection troglodytes need be eradicated for the common good -- as they've chosen this path.

My job, if I must take on a social coat-of-arms, is to make obvious the fact that their path is a POOR CHOICE.

Think real hard about what your saying. Why do you find my remarks, "condescending?" Oh, yeah, because they're true. If they weren't, were there no dichotomy, were there nothing for you to defend, if Pine Ridge were not a zoo, you wouldn't care.

What irks you is not what occurs there, what irks your appears to be an individual with the willingness to openly call a spade a spade, air our internal laundry, and try to DRAG us into an era of even the LEAST bit of accountability by reporting that the ongoing -- since 1890? -- incarnation of a specific geographic area is a total cesspool.

Can you even argue, otherwise?

"There are no gangsters in Pine Ridge?" Now, you're not even dealing in reality.

Finally, I assure you, I am plenty baddass to do whatever I perceive is worth my effort to deal with. Criminals, criminals-in-training, "poor me" types, the closeted, short-sighted fools and those that blindly worship Traditionalism just aren't.

I don't make you sick, The Truth does.
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Old 12-08-2009, 11:02 AM   #68
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Giving tourists a look at gang culture -- latimes.com

By Scott Gold December 5, 2009


A group of civic activists, united by faith and a belief that the poor economy in the interior of Los Angeles is a social injustice, is preparing to offer bus tours of some of the grittiest pockets of the city, including decayed public housing, sites of deadly shootouts and streets ravaged by racial unrest.

After a VIP preview last weekend, L.A. Gang Tours expects to open to the public in January, giving tourists a look at the cradle of the nation's gang culture -- the birthplace of many of the city's gangs, including Crips and Bloods, Florencia 13 and 18th Street.

"This is ground zero for a lot of the bad in this city. It could be ground zero for a lot of the good too," said Alfred Lomas, a former Florencia member who has become a leading gang intervention worker in South Los Angeles and is spearheading the tours. "This is true community empowerment."

The nonprofit group plans to offer two-hour tours at an initial cost of $65 per adult, with profits funneled back into the community through jobs, "franchised" tours in new areas and micro-loans to inner-city entrepreneurs. Early routes will focus largely on South L.A., with forays through Watts and Florence-Firestone.

The concept appears to have no equal in L.A. -- for good reason, some might argue. It seems to echo, more than anything, the "slum tours" of such sites as India's Dharavi township and Rio de Janeiro's favelas. Those operations have been lauded as innovative economic tools and mechanisms for humanizing poverty -- and also attacked as exploitative and voyeuristic.

The L.A. tour comes after months of planning, and is offered in a spirit of education and public service. Lomas, who will lead tours at first, plans to talk about important chapters in the development of the city's core, such as how racist housing restrictions shaped ethnic enclaves and the formation of gangs.

Other aspects may raise eyebrows. Selling shirts painted on the spot by a graffiti "tagger" is one thing. But one backer said he also hopes to stage dance-offs between locals; tourists would pick a winner and fork over a cash prize. It wasn't long ago that organizers decided against a plan to have kids shoot tourists with water pistols, followed by the sale of T-shirts that read: "I Got Shot in South-Central."

"It's going to be fascinating -- but really controversial," said Francisco Ortega, a field staffer with the Los Angeles Human Relations Commission and a respected mediator and neighborhood advisor in South L.A. Ortega said there could be great value in "sensitizing people, connecting them to the reality of what's on the ground."

"But the other side is that it could come across like a zoo or something," Ortega said. "You're being carted about: 'Look at that cholo over there!' It could be perceived as demeaning for the people who are living in these conditions. I don't know how they're going to manage those perceptions."

City Councilwoman Jan Perry said she has offered bus tours of South L.A. herself -- but those were for real estate leaders she was trying to persuade to invest in the neighborhood. She said South L.A. could benefit from an effort to demonstrate "the potential of the community." But she said some aspects of this kind of tourism could go too far.

"It's not right to put people on display," she said.

"It depends on their intent and how they balance it," said Councilman Bernard C. Parks.

Organizers, however, say they've been careful to plan tours that are respectful and neither glorify gangs nor exploit the poor.

"What matters to me is that kids get fed and families get help," Lomas said.

The organization is bolstered by business leaders and gang experts who are contributing start-up capital and advice.

Several are connected to the Dream Center, the L.A. church ministry where Lomas directs a food bank. Lomas credits the organization with helping him to turn his life around.

Kevin Malone, a former Dodgers general manager, sits on the board of the Dream Center's charitable arm and has become one of Lomas' chief supporters. Malone said he has become involved in human-rights causes, such as combating human trafficking. He said the possibility of introducing self-sustaining economic development into the city's poorest neighborhoods is no less of a human rights issue.

"I believe in this," he said.

Other backers include Ron Noblet, a leading gang expert and an early proponent of using gang intervention to augment traditional police tactics. Noblet dismissed any potential for criticism or controversy.

"There will be a lot of people who will be delighted if he fails," Noblet said of Lomas. "But there is clarity in the dream."
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Old 12-08-2009, 11:05 AM   #69
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Another backer is Terry Jensen, an owner of Seattle-based Duninger Corp., which has subsidiaries in engineering and real estate investment. Jensen is the inventor of the "Jakpak," a jacket that turns into a tent with a built-in sleeping bag. It was designed for the homeless and communities hit by natural disasters.

Jensen, also a minister, has allowed Lomas to use his accountants and marketers. The team, he said, believes the tours could generate $1 million in profit in the first year, and that it would compete for customers with operators of celebrity-home tours in Hollywood.

"I think this will be a destination tour," Jensen said. "I think people will come to Los Angeles to take this tour."

Jensen acknowledged that customers will have to sign a watertight legal waiver. He said that's why it's important to spread the word through affected neighborhoods that the tour is coming -- and, eventually, generating jobs, grants and loans. For example, Jensen said he'd like to see some early profits send a graffiti "tagger" to art school.

"We all know that the day somebody gets hurt, it's over," he said. "We're counting on the fact that the gangs aren't going to mess in their own beds."

There is another reason to spread the gospel: Lomas hopes to use the tours to foster peace on the streets.

In recent weeks, The Times was granted access to a series of "sit-downs" -- meetings -- seeking understandings between gangs that have historically warred: Florencia, 18th Street and Grape Street, the dominant gang in the Jordan Downs public housing development.

Other gangs are being added to the talks and will shape tour routes down the road. Lomas, for instance, hopes to include the South L.A. bus stop where five children and three adults were shot in gang crossfire last year, but needs the local gangs to sign off, giving him "safe passage."

One "sit-down" took place in a Jordan Downs apartment that serves as the hub of the small nonprofit empire of Fred "Scorpio" Smith. The 38-year-old Smith said he joined Grape Street when he was 11 and recently completed a 13-year prison term on drug charges. Influential in Jordan Downs, he now runs a charitable organization, including a program for kids who have dropped out or have been kicked out of local schools.

A small group, led by Lomas, went to the apartment seeking approval to run the tour through Jordan Downs. At first, Smith sounded skeptical.

"A tour?" he asked incredulously. "Of the 'hood?"

Lomas offered to hire two teens from the housing development as part-time tour employees.

"I'm not saying you have to stop shooting each other," Lomas said. "Just allow me a certain time in the day. . . . Just let the bus go through."

"Safe passage is a guarantee," Smith said.

Lomas and Smith discussed a host of delicate issues: tension between African Americans and Latinos; a recent skirmish between Florencia and Grape Street. They discussed building a phone tree to open new lines of communication between their neighborhoods.

But the long-term goal, Lomas explained, is economic viability.

"People around the world have stereotyped us," Lomas said. "I'm talking about sustainable change. But it won't work unless we have unity."

"The people on the ground doing doing the work," Smith replied. "That's cool. That'd be cool."

scott.gold@latimes.com

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Old 12-08-2009, 07:11 PM   #70
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This is a SWEET irony find! (We've, literally, turned the "zoo," into a Zoo.)

At least, someone wants to see this one? At $65 per human?

If this works, how long until other Third World areas, within the confines of America, are so displayed for $$$?

This is incredible. The delicious satire... They even want the local "Natives" to dance for the tourists...

Perfect symbolism...
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Old 12-08-2009, 09:41 PM   #71
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......

.....

..... no way.
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Old 12-08-2009, 10:25 PM   #72
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I wonder if those Los Angeles folks know any history; besides sports, hollywood, and fashion....?

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In creating the Wild West Show, Cody also created the myth of the adventuresome, exciting, and outright wild western frontier. Cody helped pitch-in to give the West its image as we see it today. The legend he fathered became a permanent part in America’s history and is still present today. He also was the first to establish the format and content of Wild West shows. The shows consisted of reenactments of history combined with displays of showmanship, sharp-shooting, hunts, racing, or rodeo style events. Each show was 3–4 hours long and attracted crowds of thousands of people daily. The show began with a parade on horseback. The parade was a major ordeal, an affair that involved huge public crowds and many performers, including the Congress of Rough Riders. The Congress of Rough Riders was composed of marksman from around the world, including the future President Theodore Roosevelt, who marched through the parade on horseback.

Among the composition of the show were “historical” scenes. “The exact scenes changed over time, but were either portrayed as a ‘typical’ event such as the early settlers defending a homestead, a wagon train crossing the plains, or a more specific event such as the Battle of the Little Bighorn”. (Bowling Green State University) In both types of events, Buffalo Bill used his poetic license to both glorify himself or others while heightening the villainous mischievousness of the “bad guys” (outlaws or Indians) and to embellish each situation for theatrical enhancement. “Typical” events included acts known as Bison Hunt, Train Robbery, Indian War Battle Reenactment, and the usual grand finale of the show, Attack on the Burning Cabin, in which Indians attacked a settler’s cabin and were repulsed by Buffalo Bill, cowboys, and Mexicans.

A more specific historical event in the show might have been a reenactment of the Battle of Little Bighorn also known as “Custer’s Last Stand”. This event was made into a famous act performed in the show, with Buck Taylor starring as General George Armstrong Custer. In this battle, Custer and all men under his direct command were killed. After Custer is dead, Buffalo Bill rides in, the hero, but he is too late. He avenges Custer by killing and scalping Yellow Hair (also called Yellowhand) which he called the “first scalp for Custer”. (Sorg 26) This reenactment is exciting for the audience and also stresses Buffalo Bill’s importance, as it suggests that were he to ride in on time, Custer and his men may have been saved.

The Native Americans who took part in the show were mostly Plain Indians like the Pawnee and Sioux. They participated in staged “Indian Races” and historic battles, and often appeared in attack scenes attacking white in which their savagery and wildness was played up. They also performed talented dances, such as the Sioux Ghost Dance. In reality the performance of the ghost dance meant that trouble was brewing and about to break out, but it wasn’t portrayed as such in the show. The Native Americans always wore their best costumes and full war paint. Cody treated them with great respect and paid them adequately. The extent of his respect was demonstrated when named the Native Americans as “the former foe, present friend, the American” (Wikipedia) Audiences were impressed by the presence of Native Americans in the show because they were extraordinarily “simultaneously exotic and accessible people” (Kasson 162)

Native Americans in the show also had their claim to fame, the most reputable being Chief Sitting Bull. Sitting Bull joined the show for a short time and was a star attraction alongside Annie Oakley. It was said that he only agreed to join the show because he was fascinated with Annie Oakley and Buffalo Bill assured him that if he joined, he could see her perform all the time. During his time at the show, Sitting Bull was introduced to President Grover Cleveland, which he thought proved his importance as chief. He was friends with Buffalo Bill and highly valued the horse that was given to him when he left the show. Other familiar Native Americans names who performed in the show were Chief Joseph, Geronimo, and Rains in Face (who reportedly killed Custer).
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Old 12-09-2009, 01:38 AM   #73
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This is a SWEET irony find! (We've, literally, turned the "zoo," into a Zoo.)

At least, someone wants to see this one? At $65 per human?

If this works, how long until other Third World areas, within the confines of America, are so displayed for $$$?

This is incredible. The delicious satire... They even want the local "Natives" to dance for the tourists...

Perfect symbolism...
Don't worry. Zeke. People will shoot their lily white *** out of there.

When you live/work in an area like L.A. and surrounding cities, Pine Ridge and the word 'gang' in the same sentence just doesn't sound too threatening.
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Old 12-09-2009, 03:11 AM   #74
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When you live/work in an area like L.A. and surrounding cities, Pine Ridge and the word 'gang' in the same sentence just doesn't sound too threatening.
Except, of course, LA-type gangs are -- at heart -- businessmen. Corrupt? Brutal? Even murderous?

"Yes."

But businessmen. (With their own code, values, ethics, etc.)

If they can make $65 per head from busloads of legal tourists, merely by guaranteeing their safety, areas of Compton will become as safe as any gated community on Martha's Vineyard.

Reality is that the Pine Ridge Zoo isn't even advanced enough to make good fodder. I doubt we could pay people $65 per day to come watch: beyond the folk that choose to remain there -- for much less wages -- proffered in government cheese.
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Old 12-10-2009, 02:07 PM   #75
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Zeke - Its a self sustaining business.

Check this :

All the gangster agree to "go easy" when the tourist come around, so that the money can be made. However, some young "baby gangster" decides to get all up-n-arms and cause some shyt. (This is guaranteed to happen). Well, they just have a good ol' drive-by or shoot out... and get rid of his ***.... and while that is happening, the tourist are watching, which even furthers the business.

Its like the problems with the business become the fuel for the business.

Nice.
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Old 12-16-2009, 02:43 PM   #76
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The fix.

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gangs are for itty bitty weenies with no brains
You are wrong. I know people who are in gangs on the White Earth reservation in Minnesota. I used to work for a Boys and Girls club and in so doing, learned a lot about gang culture and also what is going on in that small village of White Earth.

There are four "gangs" in WE. They are all based on families, so depending on what family you are born into, you are part of that gang. Most of these people go on just hating on each other. This kid hates that kid just because his last name is *P* and her last name is *T*. Its been that way for a long time, and probably no one remembers the original incident on why the families started hating each other.

I have had to deal with some of those kids too. Some of them are extremely intelligent, not itsy bitsy weenies with no brains. If they could get it together, they could go on to college or make a decent life for themselves.

What we are dealing with here is a cycle, nothing more. The cycle is alcoholism. The people drink, period. A lot of people drink while they are pregnant. Then the kids are born, sometimes with fetal alcohol syndrome. These kids have it the worst. More often than not the parents neglect their kids because they are too drunk to take care of them. The kids then fall into a cycle of drinking and the circle is complete. The kids of parents who get arrested and then raised by and auntie or uncle or grandparent are usually the lucky ones because usually the guardian is a responsible person.

To fix this problem we need to break the alcoholic cycle. Banning beer off the rez will not fix the problem. Like it was said before, they can go over the boarder and get their brew. What needs to be done is intervention. Find those responsible people to take care of the children of broken and alcoholic families. Give them a reason to live by teaching them their culture. Use the money offered by the whites to start after school programs like Boys and Girls clubs or dance organisations.

Give these kids a reason or a place to belong before they go and find their own places to belong. If the population for gang membership dries up then the gangs will die out.

I would also stress to increase law enforcement and crack down on drug traffiking and meth production, but I think everyone kinda already knows that. Law enforcement is a kind of double edged sword. A lot of the kids at the club I used to work at viewed the police as the enemy. There were times I had to call the cops because of an unruley child that would not leave, and we could not get the parents to come and pick up. Therefore myself and the staff were labeled as "cop callers". You try to keep the kids safe. A lot of times that is harder than people say it is though.

Derek
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Old 12-16-2009, 04:08 PM   #77
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Right on! It's tough love, or no love...because standing by with our hands in our pockets is useless.

These kids are growing up in THEIR generation, the older folks can't relate to Meth and Ecstacy, all they had was booze and maybe pot. Kids are pushed by peer pressure, and without intervention by responsible adults they can permanently ruin their lives.

The workers such as yourself get much closer to the kids, law enforcement needs better liaison with you to address community problems, work within.

An ounce of medicine is worth a pound of cure.

We need to "gang up" our resources and clean up the streets.

Peace,

AK
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Old 12-16-2009, 04:15 PM   #78
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Right on! It's tough love, or no love...because standing by with our hands in our pockets is useless.
In sum, we need to burn Pine Ridge.

Which is what I said, before.
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Old 12-16-2009, 04:42 PM   #79
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It's already burning with "toxicity". Like a virus, it spreads from one person to the next.
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