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Old 02-15-2008, 05:23 PM   #221
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Myth #8: The "cave man" diet was low-fat and/or vegetarian. Humans evolved as vegetar

Our Paleolithic ancestors were hunter-gatherers, and three schools of thought have developed as to what their diet was like. One group argues for a high-fat and animal-based diet supplemented with seasonal fruits, berries, nuts, root vegetables and wild grasses. The second argues that primitive peoples consumed assorted lean meats and large amounts of plant foods. The third argues that our human ancestors evolved as vegetarians.

The "lean" Paleolithic diet approach has been argued for quite voraciously by Dr.'s Loren Cordain and Boyd Eaton in a number of popular and professional publications (91). Cordain and Eaton are believers in the Lipid Hypothesis of heart disease--the belief (debunked in myth number six, above) that saturated fat and dietary cholesterol contribute to heart disease. Because of this, and the fact that Paleolithic peoples or their modern equivalents did/do not suffer from heart disease, Cordain and Eaton espouse the theory that Paleolithic peoples consumed most of their fat calories from monounsaturated and polyunsaturated sources and not saturated fats. Believing that saturated fats are dangerous to our arteries, Cordain and Eaton stay in step with current establishment nutritional thought and encourage modern peoples to eat a diet like our ancestors. This diet, they believe, was rich in lean meats and a variety of vegetables, but was low in saturated fat. The evidence they produce to support this theory is, however, very selective and misleading. (92) Saturated fats do not cause heart disease as was shown above, and our Paleolithic ancestors ate quite a bit of saturated fat from a variety of plant and animal sources.

From authoritative sources, we learn that prehistoric humans of the North American continent ate such animals as mammoth, camel, sloth, bison, mountain sheep, pronghorn antelope, beaver, elk, mule deer, and llama (93). "Mammoth, sloth, mountain sheep, bison, and beaver are fatty animals in the modern sense in that they have a thick layer of subcutaneous fat, as do the many species of bear and wild pig whose remains have been found at Paleolithic sites throughout the world." (94) Analysis of many types of fat in game animals like antelope, bison, caribou, dog, elk, moose, seal, and mountain sheep shows that they are rich in saturates and monounsaturates, but relatively low in polyunstaurates. (95)

Further, while buffalo and game animals may have lean, non-marbled muscle meats, it is a mistake to assume that only these parts were eaten by hunter-gatherer groups like the Native Americans who often hunted animals selectively for their fat and fatty organs as the following section will show.

Anthropologists/explorers such as Vilhjalmur Stefansson reported that the Innuit and North American Indian tribes would worry when their catches of caribou were too lean: they knew sickness would follow if they did not consume enough fat (96). In other words, these primitive peoples did not like having to eat lean meat.

Northern Canadian Indians would also deliberately hunt older male caribou and elk, for these animals carried a 50-pound slab of back fat on them which the Indians would eat with relish. This "back fat" is highly saturated. Native Americans would also refrain from hunting bison in the springtime (when the animals' fat stores were low, due to scarce food supply during the winter), preferring to hunt, kill and consume them in the fall when they were fattened up (97).

Explorer Samuel Hearne, writing in 1768, described how the Native American tribes he came in contact with would selectively hunt caribou just for the fatty parts:

On the twenty-second of July, we met several strangers, whom we joined in pursuit of the caribou, which were at this time so plentiful that we got everyday a sufficient number for our support, and indeed too frequently killed several merely for the tongues, marrow, and fat. (98)

While Cordain and Eaton are certainly correct in saying that our ancestors ate meat, their contentions about fat intake, as well as the type of fat consumed, are simply incorrect.

While various vegetarian and vegan authorities like to think that we evolved as a species on a vegan or vegetarian diet, there exists little from the realm of nutritional anthropology to support these ideas.

To begin with, in his journeys, Dr Price never once found a totally vegetarian culture. It should be remembered that Dr. Price visited and investigated several population groups who were, for all intents and purposes, the 20th century equivalents of our hunter-gatherer ancestors. Dr. Price was on the lookout for a vegetarian culture, but he came up empty. Price stated:

As yet I have not found a single group of primitive racial stock which was building and maintaining excellent bodies by living entirely on plant foods. (99)

Anthropological data support this: throughout the globe, all societies show a preference for animal foods and fats and our ancestors only turned to large scale farming when they had to due to increased population pressures (100). Abrams and other authorities have shown that prehistoric man's quest for more animal foods was what spurred his expansion over the Earth, and that he apparently hunted certain species to extinction. (101)

Price also found that those peoples who, out of necessity, consumed more grains and legumes, had higher rates of dental decay than those who consumed more animal products. In his papers on vegetarianism, Abrams presents archaeological evidence that supports this finding: skulls of ancient peoples who were largely vegetarian have teeth containing caries and abscesses and show evidence of tuberculosis and other infectious diseases (102). The appearance of farming and the increased dependence on plant foods for our subsistence was clearly harmful to our health.

Finally, it is simply not possible for our prehistoric ancestors to have been vegetarian because they would not have been able to get enough calories or nutrients to survive on the plant foods that were available. The reason for this is that humans did not know how to cook or control fire at that time and the great majority of plant foods, especially grains and legumes, must be cooked in order to render them edible to humans (103). Most people do not know that many of the plant foods we consume today are poisonous in their raw states (104).

Based on all of this evidence, it is certain that the diets of our ancestors, the progenitors of humanity, ate a very non-vegetarian diet that was rich in saturated fatty acids.
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Old 02-15-2008, 05:24 PM   #222
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Myth #9:

Meat and saturated fat consumption have increased in the 20th century, with a corresponding increase in heart disease and cancer.

Statistics do not bear out such fancies. Butter consumption has plummeted from 18 lb (8.165 kg) per person a year in 1900, to less than 5 lb (2.27 kg) per person a year today (105). Additionally, Westerners, urged on by government health agencies, have reduced their intake of eggs, cream, lard, and pork. Chicken consumption has risen in the past few decades, but chicken is lower in saturated fat than either beef or pork.

Furthermore, a survey of cookbooks published in America in the last century shows that people of earlier times ate plenty of animal foods and saturated fats. For example, in the Baptist Ladies Cook Book (Monmouth, Illinois, 1895), virtually every recipe calls for butter, cream or lard. Recipes for creamed vegetables are numerous as well. A scan of the Searchlight Recipe Book (Capper Publications, 1931) also has similar recipes: creamed liver, creamed cucumbers, hearts braised in buttermilk, etc. British Jews, as shown by the Jewish Housewives Cookbook (London, 1846), also had diets rich in cream, butter, eggs, and lamb and beef tallows. One recipe for German waffles, for example, calls for a dozen egg yolks and an entire pound of butter. A recipe for Oyster Pie from the Baptist cookbook calls for a quart of cream and a dozen eggs, and so forth and so on.

It does not appear, then, that people ate leaner diets in the last century. It is true that beef consumption has risen in the last few decades, but what has also risen precipitously, however, is consumption of margarine and other food products containing trans-fatty acids (106), lifeless, packaged "foods", processed vegetable oils (107), carbohydrates (108) and refined sugar (109). Since one does not see chronic diseases like cancer and heart disease in beef-eating native peoples like the Maasai and Samburu, it is not possible for beef to be the culprit behind these modern epidemics. This, of course, points the finger squarely at the other dietary factors as the most likely causes.
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Old 02-15-2008, 05:25 PM   #223
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Myth #10: Soy products are adequate substitutes for meat and dairy products.

It is typical for vegans and vegetarians in the Western world to rely on various soy products for their protein needs. There is little doubt that the billion-dollar soy industry has profited immensely from the anti-cholesterol, anti-meat gospel of current nutritional thought. Whereas, not so long ago, soy was an Asian food primarily used as a condiment, now a variety of processed soy products proliferate in the North American market. While the traditionally fermented soy foods of miso, tamari, tempeh and natto are definitely healthful in measured amounts, the hyper-processed soy "foods" that most vegetarians consume are not.

Non-fermented soybeans and foods made with them are high in phytic acid (110), an anti-nutrient that binds to minerals in the digestive tract and carries them out of the body. Vegetarians are known for their tendencies to mineral deficiencies, especially of zinc (111) and it is the high phytate content of grain and legume based diets that is to blame (112). Though several traditional food preparation techniques such as soaking, sprouting, and fermenting can significantly reduce the phytate content of grains and legumes (113), such methods are not commonly known about or used by modern peoples, including vegetarians. This places them (and others who eat a diet rich in whole grains) at a greater risk for mineral deficiencies.

Processed soy foods are also rich in trypsin inhibitors, which hinder protein digestion. Textured vegetable protein (TVP), soy "milk" and soy protein powders, popular vegetarian meat and milk substitutes, are entirely fragmented foods made by treating soybeans with high heat and various alkaline washes to extract the beans' fat content or to neutralize their potent enzyme inhibitors (110). These practices completely denature the beans' protein content, rendering it very hard to digest. MSG, a neurotoxin, is routinely added to TVP to make it taste like the various foods it imitates (114).

On a purely nutritional level, soybeans, like all legumes, are deficient in cysteine and methionine, vital sulphur-containing amino acids, as well as tryptophan, another essential amino acid. Furthermore, soybeans contain no vitamins A or D, required by the body to assimilate and utilize the beans' proteins (115). It is probably for this reason that Asian cultures that do consume soybeans usually combine them with fish or fish broths (abundant in fat-soluble vitamins) or other fatty foods.

Parents who feed their children soy-based formula should be aware of its extremely high phytoestrogen content. Some scientists have estimated a child being fed soy formula is ingesting the hormonal equivalent of five birth control pills a day (116). Such a high intake could have disastrous results. Soy formula also contains no cholesterol, vital for brain and nervous system development.

Though research is still ongoing, some recent studies have indicated that soy's phytoestrogens could be causative factors in some forms of breast cancer (117), penile birth defects (118), and infantile leukemia (119). Regardless, soy's phytoestrogens, or isoflavones, have been definitely shown to depress thyroid function (120) and to cause infertility in every animal species studied so far (121). Clearly, modern soy products and isolated isoflavone supplements are not healthy foods for vegetarians, vegans, or anyone else, yet these are the very ones that are most consumed.
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Old 02-15-2008, 05:25 PM   #224
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SIG if you judge people by their appearance and hate them (people in general) what do you think your teaching your children, it seems to me that your closed minded.
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Old 02-15-2008, 05:26 PM   #225
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Myth #11: The human body is not designed for meat consumption.

Some vegetarian groups claim that since humans possess grinding teeth like herbivorous animals and longer intestines than carnivorous animals, this proves the human body is better suited for vegetarianism (122). This argument fails to note several human physiological features which clearly indicate a design for animal product consumption.

First and foremost is our stomach's production of hydrochloric acid, something not found in herbivores. HCL activates protein-splitting enzymes. Further, the human pancreas manufactures a full range of digestive enzymes to handle a wide variety of foods, both animal and vegetable. Further, Dr. Walter Voegtlin's in-depth comparison of the human digestive system with that of the dog, a carnivore, and a sheep, a herbivore, clearly shows that we are closer in anatomy to the carnivorous dog than the herbivorous sheep. (123)

While humans may have longer intestines than animal carnivores, they are not as long as herbivores; nor do we possess multiple stomachs like many herbivores, nor do we chew cud. Our physiology definitely indicates a mixed feeder, or an omnivore, much the same as our relatives, the mountain gorilla and chimpanzee who all have been observed eating small animals and, in some cases, other primates (124).
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Old 02-15-2008, 05:28 PM   #226
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Myth #12: Eating animal flesh causes violent, aggressive behavior in humans.

Some authorities on vegetarian diet, such as Dr Ralph Ballantine (125), claim that the fear and terror (if any, see myth #15) an animal experiences at death is somehow "transferred" into its flesh and organs and "becomes" a part of the person who eats it.

In addition to the fact that no scientific studies exist to support such a theory, these thinkers would do well to remember the fact that a tendency to irrational anger is a symptom of low vitamin B12 levels which, as we have seen, are common in vegans and vegetarians. Furthermore, in his travels, Dr Price always noted the extreme happiness and ingratiating natures of the peoples he encountered, all of whom were meat-eaters.
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Old 02-15-2008, 05:29 PM   #227
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Myth #13: Animal products contain numerous, harmful toxins.

A recent vegetarian newsletter claimed the following:

Most people don't realize that meat products are loaded with poisons and toxins! Meat, fish and eggs all decompose and putrefy extremely rapidly. As soon as an animal is killed, self-destruct enzymes are released, causing the formation of denatured substances called ptyloamines, which cause cancer. (126)

This article then went on to mention "mad cow disease" (BSE), parasites, salmonella, hormones, nitrates and pesticides as toxins in animal products.

If meat, fish and eggs do indeed generate cancerous "ptyloamines," it is very strange that people have not been dying in droves from cancer for the past million years. Such sensationalistic and nonsensical claims cannot be supported by historical facts.

Hormones, nitrates and pesticides are present in commercially raised animal products (as well as commercially raised fruits, grains and vegetables) and are definitely things to be concerned about. However, one can avoid these chemicals by taking care to consume range-fed, organic meats, eggs and dairy products which do not contain harmful, man-made toxins.

Parasites are easily avoided by taking normal precautions in food preparations. Pickling or fermenting meats, as is custom in traditional societies, always protects against parasites. In his travels, Dr Price always found healthy, disease-free and parasite-free peoples eating raw meat and dairy products as part of their diets.

Similarly, Dr Francis Pottenger, in his experiments with cats, demonstrated that the healthiest, happiest cats were the ones on the all-raw-food diet. The cats eating cooked meats and pasteurized milk sickened and died and had numerous parasites (127). Salmonella can be transmitted by plant products as well as animal.

It is often claimed by vegetarians that meat is harmful to our bodies because ammonia is released from the breakdown of its proteins. Although it is true that ammonia production does result from meat digestion, our bodies quickly convert this substance into harmless urea. The alleged toxicity of meat is greatly exaggerated by vegetarians.

"Mad Cow Disease," or Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (BSE), is most likely not caused by cows eating animal parts with their food, a feeding practice that has been done for over 100 years. British organic farmer Mark Purdey has argued convincingly that cows that get Mad Cow Disease are the very ones that have had a particular organophosphate insecticide applied to their backs or have grazed on soils that lack magnesium but contain high levels of aluminum (128). Small outbreaks of "mad cow disease" have also occurred among people who reside near cement and chemical factories and in certain areas with volcanic soils (129).

Purdey theorizes that the organophosphate pesticides got into the cows' fat through a spraying program, and then were ingested by the cows again with the animal part feeding. Seen this way, it is the insecticides, via the parts feeding (and not the parts themselves or their associated "prions"), that has caused this outbreak. As noted before, cows have been eating ground up animal parts in their feeds for over 100 years. It was never a problem before the introduction of these particular insecticides.

Recently, Purdey has gained support from Dr. Donald Brown, a British biochemist who has also argued for a non-infectious cause of BSE. Brown attributes BSE to environmental toxins, specifically manganese overload (130).
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Old 02-15-2008, 05:30 PM   #228
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Myth #14:

Eating meat or animal products is less "spiritual" than eating only plant foods.

It is often claimed that those who eat meat or animal products are somehow less "spiritually evolved" than those who do not. Though this is not a nutritional or academic issue, those who do include animal products in their diet are often made to feel inferior in some way. This issue, therefore, is worth addressing.

Several world religions place no restrictions on animal consumption; and nor did their founders. The Jews eat lamb at their most holy festival, the Passover. Muslims also celebrate Ramadan with lamb before entering into their fast. Jesus Christ, like other Jews, partook of meat at the Last Supper (according to the canonical Gospels). It is true that some forms of Buddhism do place strictures on meat consumption, but dairy products are always allowed. Similar tenets are found in Hinduism. As part of the Samhain celebration, Celtic pagans would slaughter the weaker animals of the herds and cure their meat for the oncoming winter. It is not true, therefore, that eating animal foods is always connected with "spiritual inferiority".

Nevertheless, it is often claimed that, since eating meat involves the taking of a life, it is somehow tantamount to murder. Leaving aside the religious philosophies that often permeate this issue, what appears to be at hand is a misunderstanding of the life force and how it works. Modern peoples (vegetarian and non-vegetarian) have lost touch with what it takes to survive in our world--something native peoples never lose sight of. We do not necessarily hunt or clean our meats: we purchase steaks and chops at the supermarket. We do not necessarily toil in rice paddies: we buy bags of brown rice; and so forth, and so on.

When Native Americans killed a game animal for food, they would routinely offer a prayer of thanks to the animal's spirit for giving its life so that they could live. In our world, life feeds off life. Destruction is always balanced with generation. This is a good thing: unchecked, the life force becomes cancerous. If animal food consumption is viewed in this manner, it is hardly murder, but sacrifice. Modern peoples would do well to remember this.
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Old 02-15-2008, 05:31 PM   #229
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Myth #15: Eating animal foods is inhumane.

Without question, some commercially raised livestock live in deplorable conditions where sickness and suffering are common. In countries like Korea, food animals such as dogs are sometimes killed in horrific ways, e.g., beaten to death with a club. Our recommendations for animal foods consumption most definitely do not endorse such practices.

As noted in our discussion of myth #1, commercial farming of livestock results in an unhealthy food product, whether that product be meat, milk, butter, cream or eggs. Our ancestors did not consume such substandard foodstuffs, and neither should we.

It is possible to raise animals humanely. This is why organic, preferably Biodynamic, farming is to be encouraged: it is cleaner and more efficient, and produces healthier animals and foodstuffs from those animals. Each person should make every effort, then, to purchase organically raised livestock (and plant foods). Not only does this better support our bodies, as organic foods are more nutrient-dense (131) and are free from hormone and pesticide residues, but this also supports smaller farms and is therefore better for the economy (132).

Nevertheless, many people have philosophical problems with eating animal flesh, and these sentiments must be respected. Dairy products and eggs, though, are not the result of an animal's death and are fine alternatives for these people.

It should also not be forgotten that agriculture, which involves both the clearance of land to plant crops and the protection and maintenance of those crops, results in many animal deaths (133). The belief, therefore, that "becoming vegetarians" will somehow spare animals from dying is one with no foundation in fact.
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Old 02-15-2008, 05:33 PM   #230
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A balance to any Debate

I will now post the conclusion to this article along with the references
This is scientific studies
Not Mishmash
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Old 02-15-2008, 05:34 PM   #231
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The Value of Vegetarianism

As a cleansing diet, vegetarianism is sometimes a good choice. Several health conditions (e.g., gout) can often be ameliorated by a temporary reduction in animal products with an increase of plant foods. But such measures must not be continuous throughout life: there are vital nutrients found only in animal foods that we must ingest for optimal health. Furthermore, there is no one diet that will work for every person. Some vegetarians and vegans, in their zeal to get converts, are blind to this biochemical fact.

"Biochemical individuality" is a subject worth clarifying. Coined by nutritional biochemist Roger Williams, PhD, the term refers to the fact that different people require different nutrients based on their unique genetic make-up. Ethnic and racial background figure in this concept as well. A diet that works for one may not work as well for someone else. As a practitioner, I've seen several clients following a vegetarian diet with severe health problems: obesity, candidiasis, hypothyroidism, cancer, diabetes, leaky gut syndrome, anemia and chronic fatigue. Because of the widespread rhetoric that a vegetarian diet is "always healthier" than a diet that includes meat or animal products, these people saw no reason to change their diet, even though that was the cause of their problems. What these people actually needed for optimal health was more animal foods and fats and fewer carbohydrates.

Further, due to peculiarities in genetics and individual biochemistry, some people simply cannot do a vegetarian diet because of such things as lectin intolerance and desaturating enzyme deficiencies. Lectins present in legumes, a prominent feature of vegetarian diets, are not tolerated by many people. Others have grain sensitivities, especially to gluten, or to grain proteins in general. Again, since grains are a major feature of vegetarian diets, such people cannot thrive on them. (134)

Desaturase enzyme deficiencies are usually present in those people of Innuit, Scandinavian, Northern European, and sea coast ancestry. They lack the ability to convert alpha-linolenic acid into EPA and DHA, two omega-3 fatty acids intimately involved in the function of the immune and nervous systems. The reason for this is because these people's ancestors got an abundance of EPA and DHA from the large amounts of cold-water fish they ate. Over time, because of non-use, they lost the ability to manufacture the necessary enzymes to create EPA and DHA in their bodies. For these people, vegetarianism is simply not possible. They MUST get their EPA and DHA from food and EPA is only found in animal foods. DHA is present in some algae, but the amounts are much lower than in fish oils. (135)

It is also apparent that vegan diets are not suitable for all people due to inadequate cholesterol production in the liver and cholesterol is only found in animal foods. It is often said that the body makes enough cholesterol to get by and that there is no reason to consume foods that contain it (animal foods). Recent research, however, has shown otherwise. Singer's work at the University of California, Berkeley, has shown that the cholesterol in eggs improves memory in older people (136). In other words, these elderly people's own cholesterol was insufficient to improve their memory, but added dietary cholesterol from eggs was.

Though it appears that some people do well on little or no meat and remain healthy as lacto-vegetarians or lacto-ovo-vegetarians, the reason for this is because these diets are healthier for those people, not because they're healthier in general. However, a total absence of animal products, whether meat, fish, insects, eggs, butter or dairy, is to be avoided. Though it may take years, problems will eventually ensue under such dietary regimes and they will certainly show in future generations. Dr. Price's seminal research unequivocally demonstrated this. The reason for this is simple evolution: humanity evolved eating animal foods and fats as part of its diet, and our bodies are suited and accustomed to them. One cannot change evolution in a few years.

Dr. Abrams said it well when he wrote:

Humans have always been meat-eaters. The fact that no human society is entirely vegetarian, and those that are almost entirely vegetarian suffer from debilitated conditions of health, seems unequivocally to prove that a plant diet must be supplemented with at least a minimum amount of animal protein to sustain health. Humans are meat-eaters and always have been. Humans are also vegetable eaters and always have been, but plant foods must be supplemented by an ample amount of animal protein to maintain optimal health.(137)
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Author's Notes:

The author would like to thank Sally Fallon, MA; Lee Clifford, MS, CCN; and Dr. H. Leon Abrams, Jr., for their gracious assistance in preparing and reviewing this paper.

This paper was not sponsored or paid for by the meat or dairy industries.

About the Author:

The late Stephen Byrnes was a nutritionist and naturopath.

Recommended Further Reading:

The Weston A. Price Foundation
Why I am Not a Vegetarian
Beyond Vegetarianism
The Cholesterol Myths
The Paleolithic Diet Page
The Great Fallacies of Vegetarianism
National Animal Interest Alliance
Animal Rights.net
References

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2. Breeds of Livestock. Oklahoma State University, Department of Animal Science.

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6. Ibid.

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8. S Fallon and M Enig, Nourishing Traditions, 6.

9. M Purdey, op cit.

10. Ibid.

11. (a) L Dunne. The Nutrition Almanac, 3rd ed. (McGraw Hill; New York), 32-33; (b) AL Rauma and others. Vitamin B-12 status of long-term adherents of a strict uncooked vegan diet ("living food diet") is compromised. J Nutr, 1995, 125:2511-5; c) MG Crane and others. Vitamin B12 studies in total vegetarians (vegans). J Nutr Med, 1994, 4:419-30; (d) I Chanarin and others. Megaloblastic anaemia in a vegetarian Hindu community. Lancet, 1985, Nov 2:1168-72 ; (e) M Donaldson. Vitamin B12 and the Hallelujah Diet.(f) MS Donaldson. Metabolic vitamin B12 status on a mostly raw vegan diet with follow-up using tablets, nutritional yeast, or probiotic supplements. Ann Nutr Metab, 2000, 44(5-6):229-234

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23. (a) Sullivan, op cit.; (b) LY Matsuoka and others. In vivo threshold for cutaneous synthesis of vitamin D3 in skin. Nutr Rev, 1989, 47:252-3.

24. Price, op cit, 256-281.

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27. J Groff and S Gropper, op cit, 317.

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30. WA Price, op cit.

31. (a) G Mann. Atherosclerosis and the Masai. Amer J Epidem, 1972, 95:6-37; (b) Diet and disease among the milk and meat eating Masai warriors of Tanganyika. Food Nutr, 1963, 24:104.

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33. (a) RG Munger and others. Prospective study of dietary protein intake and risk of hip fracture in postmenopausal women. Amer J Clin Nutr, 1999, 69:1:147-52; (b) MT Hannan and others. Effect of dietary protein on bone loss in elderly men and women: The Framingham Osteoporosis Study. J Bone & Min Res, 2000, 15:2504-2512; c) C. Cooper, and others. Dietary protein and bone mass in women. Calcif Tiss Int, 1996, 58:320-5.

34. (a) JF Chiu and others. Long-term vegetarian diet and bone mineral density in postmenopausal Taiwanese women. Calcif Tiss Int, 1997, 60:245-9; (b) EM Lau, T Kwok, J Woo, and others. Bone mineral density in Chinese elderly female vegetarians, vegans, lacto-vegetarians and omnivores. Eur J Clin Nutr, 1998,52:60-4.

35. J. Dwyer and others. Diet, indicators of kidney disease, and late mortality among older persons in the NHANES I Epidemiologic Follow-up Study. Amer J of Pub Health, 1994, 84:(8): 1299-1303.

36. (a) V Rattan and others. Effect of combined supplementation of magnesium oxide and pyrodoxine in calcium-oxalate stone formers. Urol Res, 1994, 22(3):161-5; (b) NJ Blacklock. Sucrose and idiopathic renal stone. Nutr Health, 1987, 5(1): 9-17.

37. (a) S Renauld and M DeLorgeril. Wine, alcohol, platelets, and the French paradox for heart disease. Lancet, 1992, 339:1523-6.; (b) TLV Ulbright and DAT Southgate. Coronary heart disease: seven dietary factors. Lancet, 1991, 338:985-992; (c) L Serra-Majem and others. How could changes in diet explain changes in coronary heart disease? The Spanish Paradox. Amer J Clin Nutr, 1995, 61:1351S-9S.

38. (a) W Willett and others. New Eng J Med, December 13, 1990, 323:1664-72; (b) E Giovannucci and others. Can Res, 1994, 54:(9):2390-7.

39. EL Wynder and others. J Natl Can Inst, 1975, 54:7.

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43. D. Forman. Meat and cancer: a relation in search of a mechanism. The Lancet, 1999, 353:686-7; JS Baghurst and others. Does red meat cause cancer? Aust J Nutr Diet, 1997, 54(4):S1-S44.

44. (a) HL Abrams. Vegetarianism: another view, in The Cambridge World History of Food. K Kiple and K Ornelas, editors. (Cambridge University Press; UK), 2000, vol. 2, 1567; (b) J Dwyer. Vegetarianism. Contemporary Nutr, 1979, 4:1-2.

45. JL Lyon and others. Cancer incidence in Mormons and non-Mormons in Utah, 1966-1970. New Eng J Med, 1976, 294:129.

46. MG Enig and others. Dietary fat and cancer trends--a critique. Fed Proc, 1978, 37:2215.

47. (a) Ibid.; (b) K Erikson and NE Hubbard. Dietary fat and tumor metastasis. Nutr Rev, 1990, 48:6-14.

48. J Mills and others. Cancer-incidence among California Seventh-day Adventists, 1976-1982. Am J Clin Nutr, 1994, 59 (suppl):1136S-42S; see also RL Phillips. Canc Res, 1975, 35:3513-3522 which showed that Seventh Day Adventist physicians had higher colon cancer rates than the general population.

49. (a) S. Francheschi and others. Intake of macronutrients and risk of breast cancer. Lancet, 1996, 347:1351-6; (b) W.J. Lutz. The colonisation of Europe and our Western diseases. Med Hypotheses, 1995, 45:115-120; (c) J. Witte and others. Diet and premenopausal bilateral breast cancer: a case control study. Breast Canc Res & Treat, 1997, 42:243-251; (d) S. Francheschi and others. Food groups and risk of colo-rectal cancer in Italy. Inter J Canc, 1997, 72:56-61; (e) S Seely, and others. Diet Related Diseases--The Modern Epidemic (AVI Publishing; CT), 1985, 190-200; (f) V. Stefansson. Cancer: Disease of Civilization. (Hill and Wang; NY), 1960. In this book, Stefansson reported on a presentation made by Stanislaw Tanchou in 1843 to the Paris Medical Society wherein he linked increasing grain consumption with increased cancer rates in major European cities at the time.

50. (a) J Yudkin. Sweet and Dangerous (Bantam Books; NY), 1972, 85-102; (b) L Pauling. How to Live Longer and Feel Better, (Avon Books, New York), 1985; (c) A Hoffer and M Walker, Putting It All Together: The New Orthomolecular Nutrition, (Keats Publishing, CT), 1995, 82-84; (d) R Smith and E Pinckney. The Cholesterol Conspiracy. (Warren Greene, Inc; IL), 1991; (e) G Mann (ed). Coronary Heart Disease: The Dietary Sense and Nonsense (Veritas Society; London), 1993; (f) MG Enig. Know Your Fats (Bethesda Press; MD), 2000, 76-80; g) U. Ravnskov. The Cholesterol Myths. (New Trends Publishing; Washington, DC), 2000; (h) WE Stehbens. Coronary heart disease, hypercholesterolemia, and atherosclerosis. I. False premises. Exp Mol Pathol, 2001, Apr;70(2):103-19. (i) WE Stehbens. Coronary heart disease, hypercholesterolemia, and atherosclerosis. II. Misrepresented data. Exp Mol Pathol, 2001, Apr;70(2):120-39.

51. CV Felton and others. Dietary polyunsaturated fatty acids and composition of human aortic plaques. Lancet, 1994, 344:1195.

52. (a) GV Mann, Metabolic consequences of dietary trans-fatty acids. Lancet, 1994, 343:1268-71; (b) MG Enig and others. Dietary fat and cancer trends--a critique. Fed Proc, 1978, 37:2215; (c) F Kummerow. Nutritional effects of isomeric fats. Dietary Fats and Health, Horisberger and Bracco, eds. (Amer Oil Chem Soc; IL), 1983, 391-402; (d) CM Oomen and others. Association between trans fatty acid intake and 10-year risk of coronary heart disease in the Zutphen Elderly Study: a prospective population-based study. Lancet 2001 Mar 10 357:9258 746-51.

53. A Wolk and others. A prospective study of the association of monounsaturated fat and other types of fat with risk of breast cancer. Arch of Inter Med,1998, 158:41.

54. W Castelli. Arch Int Med, 1992, 152:7:1371-2.

55. H Hubert and others. Circulation, 1983, 67:968.

56. Multiple Risk Factor Intervention Trial: Risk factor changes and mortality results. J Amer Med Assoc, 1982, 248:12:1465.

57. (a) The Lipid Research Clinics Coronary Primary Prevention Trial Results. I. Reduction in incidence of coronary heart disease. J Amer Med Assoc, 1984, 251:359; (b) BA Golomb. Choletserol and violence: Is there a connection? Ann Int Med, 1998, 128:478-87; (c) MF Muldoon and others. Lowering cholesterol concentrations and mortality: A quantitative review of primary prevention trials. Brit Med J, 1990, 301:309-14; (d) GN Stemmermann and others. Serum cholesterol and colon cancer incidence in Hawaiian Japanese men. J National Canc Inst, 1981, 67:1179-82; (e) DL Morris and others. Serum cholesterol and cancer in the hypertension detection and followup program. Cancer, 1983, 52:1754-9; (f) SJ Winawer and others. Declining serum cholesterol levels prior to diagnosis of colon cancer. A time-trend, case-control study. J Amer Med Assoc, 1990, 263:2083-5.

58. (a) D Jacobs and others. Report of the conference on low blood cholesterol. Circulation, 1992, 86:3:1046-60; (b) B Forette and others. Cholesterol as risk factor for mortality in older women. Lancet, 1989, 868-870.

59. IJ Schatz and others. Cholesterol and all-cause mortality in elderly people from the Honolulu Heart program: a cohort study. Lancet, 2001, 358: 351-55.
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I will now post the conclusion to this article along with the references
This is scientific studies
Not Mishmash
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Oh now Josiah, you sure you don't want to throw in just a little "mishmash".j/k LMAO
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60. (a) G Kerr. Babies who eat no animal protein fail to grow at normal rate. J Amer Med Assoc, 1974, 228:675-6; (b) D Erhard. The New Vegetarians, part one. Nutr Today, 1973, 8:4-12; (c) MM Smith and F Lif****z. Pediatrics, 1994, 93:3:438-443; (d) MJ lentze. [Vegetarian and outsider diets in childhood.] Schweiz Rundsch Med Prax, 1992, Feb 25;81 (9):254-8.

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65. BA Watkins and others. Importance of Vitamin E in Bone Formation and in Chondrocyte Function. Purdue University, Lafayette, IN, ACOS Proceedings, 1996; BA Watkins and MF Seifert. Food Lipids and Bone Health, in Food Lipids and Health, RE McDonald and DB Min, eds, (Marcel Dekker, Inc.; NY), 1996.

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71. Ellis, Path, Montegriffo. Veganism: Clinical findings and investigations. Amer J Clin Nutr, 1970, 32:249-255.

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74. (a) Herrmann, Schorr, Purschwitz, Rassoul, Richter. Total homocysteine, vitamin B (12), and total antioxidant status in vegetarians. Clin Chem, 2001, 47(6):1094-10; (b) D Mazzano and others. Cardiovascular risk factors in vegetarians. Normalization of hyperhomocysteinemia with vitamin B(12) and reduction of platelet aggregation with n-3 fatty acids. Thromb Res 2000 Nov 100:153-60.

75. (a) L Corr and M Oliver. The low-fat/low cholesterol diet is ineffective. Eur Heart J, 1997, 18:18-22; (b) G Taubes. The Soft Science of Dietary Fat. Science 2001 Mar 30 291:5513 2536-45; (c) DM Dreon and others. A very-low-fat diet is not associated with improved lipoprotein profiles in men with a predominance of large, low-density lipoproteins. Amer J Clin Nutr, 1999, 69:411-8.

76. (a) U Ravnskov. The Cholesterol Myths, 47-113, 79-80; (b) A Ascherio and others. Dietary fat and risk of coronary heart disease in men. Brit Med J, 1996, 313:84-90.

77. B McConville. The Parents' Green Guide. (London: Pandora), 1990.

78. C Fitzroy. The Great Fallacies of Vegetarianism. Accessed on December 27, 2001.

79. R Smith and E Pinckney. Diet, Blood Cholesterol, and Coronary Heart Disease: A Critical Review of the Literature--vol. 2. (Vector Enterprises; CA)., 1991. A shortened adaptation of Smith's section on vegetarianism and longevity was published in Jnl of PPNF, 1998, 22 27-29. See also S Fallon and M Enig. Wise Choices, Healthy Bodies. Wise Traditions, 2000, Winter, 15-21.

80. ML Burr and PM Sweetnam. Vegetarianism, dietary fiber, and mortality. Amer J Clin Nutr, 1982, 36:873.

81. HA Kahn and others. Association between reported diet and all-cause mortality. Amer J Epidem, 1984, 119:775.

82. DA Snowden and others. Meat consumption and fatal ischemic heart disease. Prev Med, 1984, 13:490.

83. R Smith and E Pinckney. Diet, Blood Cholesterol, and Coronary Heart Disease: A Critical Review of the Literature--vol. 2.

84. WA Price. Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, 163-187.

85. V. Stefansson. The Fat of the Land, (Macmillan; NY), 1956.

86. (a) G.Z. Pitskhelauri. The Long Living of Soviet Georgia. (Human Sciences Press; NY), 1982; (b) Thomas Moore. Lifespan: What Really Affects Human Longevity (Simon & Schuster; NY), 1990.

87. HL Abrams. The relevance of paleolithic diet in determining contemporary nutritional needs. J Appl Nutr, 1979, 31:1,2:43-59.

88. HL Abrams. Vegetarianism: An anthropological/nutritional evaluation. J Appl Nutr, 1980, 32:2:53-87.

89. WA Price. Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, 23-44, 129-163.

90. J Raloff. High Fat Diets Help Athletes Perform. Science News, 1996, 149:18:287.

91. (a) L Cordain and others. The paradoxical nature of hunter-gatherer diets: meat-based, yet non-atherogenic. Eur J Clin Nutr, 2002, 56, Suppl 1, S1-S11; (b) S. Boyd Eaton with M Shostak and M Konner. The Paleolithic Prescription: A Program of Diet & Exercise and a Design for Living, (Harper & Row Publishing; CA), 1986.

92. S Fallon and M Enig. Guts and Grease: The Diet of Native Americans. Wise Traditions, 2001, Spring, 40-47.

93. DJ Stanford and JA Day, eds. Ice Age Hunters of the Rockies. (University Press of Colorado; CO.), 1992.

94. S Fallon and MG Enig. Caveman Cuisine. Jnl of PPNF, 21:2:1-4.

95. USDA data, prepared by JL Wehrauch with technical assistance from J Borton and T Sampagna, presented as a reference table in S Fallon and M Enig, Guts and Grease: The Diet of Native Americans, op. cit.

96. V Stefansson. The Fat of the Land (MacMillan Company; NY), 1956. 93. (a) Ibid. (b) S Fallon and M Enig. The Cave Man Diet. Jnl of PPNF, 1997, Summer.

97. S Hearne. The Journals of Samuel Hearne, 1768.

98. WA Price. Nutrition and Physical Degeneration, 279.

99. (a) HL Abrams. The Preference for Animal Protein and Fat: A Cross-Cultural Survey. Food and Evolution: Toward a Theory of Human Food Habits. M Harris and EB Ross, eds. (Temple University Press; PA), 1987, 207-223; (b) HL Abrams. The relevance of paleolithic diet in determining contemporary nutritional needs. J Appl Nutr, 1979, 31:1,2:43-59; (c) MN Cohen. The Food Crisis in History. (Yale University Press; CT.), 1977.
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Old 02-15-2008, 05:39 PM   #235
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100. (a) Ibid. (b) J Bronowski. The Ascent of Man. (Little, Brown; MA.), 1972; (c) PS Martin. Pleistocene Overkill. Natural History, 1967, 76:32-8.

101. (a) HL Abrams. The Relevance of Paleolithic Diet in Determining Contemporary Nutritional Needs. J Appl Nutr, 31:1-2 (1979), 43-59; (b) Susan Allport. The Primal Feast. (Harmony Books; NY), 2000; (c) Human Skeletons in Human Society in Prehistoric Italy. University of Southampton, Dept. of Archaeology. Accessed on January 7, 2002.

102. HL Abrams. Fire and cooking as a major influence on human cultural advancement: An anthropological/botanical nutritional perspective. J Appl Nutr, 1986, 38:1,2:24-31.

103. WA House and RM Welch. Effects of Natural Antinutrients on the Nutritive Value of Cereal Grains, Potato Tubers, and Legume Seeds. Crops as Sources of Nutrients for Humans. (American Society of Agronomy; WI.), 1984.

104. S Rizek and others. Fat in Today's Food Supply. J Amer Oil Chem Soc, 1974, 51:244.

105. MG Enig. Trans Fatty Acids in the Food Supply: A Comprehensive Report Covering 60 Years of Research, 2nd edition. (Enig Associates; MD.), 1995.

106. Rizek and others, op cit. 107. CW Enns and others. Trends in Food and Nutrient Intakes by Adults: NFCS 1977-78, CSFII 1989-91, and CFSII 1994-95. Fam Econom Nutr Rev, 1997, 102-15.

108. (a) J Beasley and J Swift. The Kellogg Report. (Institute of Health policy and Practice; NY), 1989, 144-5;(b) J Yudkin and others. Ann Nutr Metab, 1986, 30261-6.

109. (a) E.H. Tiney. Proximate composition and mineral and phytate contents of legumes grown in Sudan. J Food Comp Analy, 1989, 2:67-78; (b) R Anderson and W Wolf. Compositional changes in trypsin inhibitors, phytic acid, saponins, and isoflavones related to soybean processing. J Nutr, 1995, 518S-588S.

110. (a) A Bedarova and others. [Comparison of nutrient intake and corresponding biochemical parameters in adolescent vegetarians and non-vegetarians]. Cas Lek Cesk, 2000, Jul 139:396-400; (b) JN Freeland-Graves and others. Zinc status in vegetarians. J Am Diet Assoc 1980 Dec 77:655-6; (c) AL Rauma and others. Antioxidant status in vegetarians versus omnivores. Nutrition 2000 Feb 16:111-9; (d) E Ginter and others. [Nutritional status in adults on an alternative or traditional diet]. Cas Lek Cesk, 2001, Mar 140:142-6; (e) R Simoncic and others. Influence of vegetarian and mixed nutrition on selected haematological and biochemical parameters in children. Nahrung 1997 Oct 41:311-4; (f) MR Lowik and others. Long-term effects of a vegetarian diet on the nutritional status of elderly people (Dutch Nutrition Surveillance System). J Am Coll Nutr 1990 Dec 9:600-9; (g) RD Bhattacharya and others. Copper and zinc level in biological samples from healthy subjects of vegetarian food habit in reference to community environment. Chronobiologia, 1985, Apr-Jun; 12(2):145-153; (h) JR Hunt and others. Zinc absorption, mineral balance, and blood lipids in women consuming controlled lactoovovegetarian and omnivorous diets for 8 wk. Amer J Clin Nutr, 1998, Mar;67(3):421-30; (i) M Krajcovicova-Kudlackova and others. [Nutritional risk factors of a vegetarian diet in adult lacto-ovo vegetarians]. Bratisl Lek Listy, 2000, 101:38-43.

111. (a) BF Harland and others. Nutritional status and phytate: zinc and phytate x calcium:zinc dietary molar ratios of lacto-ovo vegetarian Trappist monks: 10 years later. J Am Diet Assoc 1988; 88: 1562-6; (b) R Ellis. Phytate:zinc and phytate X calcium:zinc millimolar ratios in self-selected diets of Americans, Asian Indians, and Nepalese. J Am Diet Assoc, 1987, 87:1043-7; c) RS Gibson. Content and bioavailability of trace elements in vegetarian diets. Am J Clin Nutr 1994; 59(5 Suppl): 1223S-1232S.

112. (a) AS Sandberg. The effect of food processing on phytate hydrolysis and availability of iron and zinc. Adv Exp Med Biol, 1991, 289: 499-508; (b) U Svanberg and A-S Sandberg. Improved iron availability in weaning foods using germination and fermentation. In: Nutrient Availability: Chemical and Biological Aspects. Southgate DAT, Johnson IT, Fenwick GR, eds. (Cambridge University Press; UK), 1989, 179-81; c) Larsson M, Sandberg A-S. Phytate reduction in bread containing oat flour, oat bran or rye bran. J Cereal Sci 1991; 14: 141-9.

113. S Fallon and MG Enig. Tragedy and Hype: The Third International Soy Symposium. Townsend Letter for Doctors and Patients, 2000, July and August.

114. Ibid.

115. L. Dunne. The Nutrition Almanac, 3rd edition, 306.

116. M Fitzpatrick. Soy Isoflavones: Panacea or Poison? Jnl of PPNF, Fall 1998.

117. (a) N L Petrakis and others. Stimulatory influence of soy protein isolate on breast secretion in pre-and postmenopausal women. Cancer Epid Bio Prev, 1996, 5:785-794; (b) C Dees and others. Dietary estrogens stimulate human breast cells to enter the cell cycle. Env Health Perspec 1997, 105(Suppl 3):633-636.

118. Vegetarian diet in pregnancy linked to birth defect. Brit J Urology Int, January 2000, 85:107-113.

119. T Abe. Infantile leukemia and soybeans--a hypothesis. Leukemia, 1999, 13:317-20.

120. (a) Y Ishizuki and others. The effects on the thyroid gland of soybeans administered experimentally in healthy subjects. Nippon Naibunpi Gakkai Zasshi, 1991, 767: 622-629; (b) R L Divi and others. Anti-thyroid isoflavones from the soybean. Biochem Pharmac, 1997, 54:1087-1096.

121. (a) K D R Setchell and others. Dietary estrogens - a probable cause of infertility and liver disease in captive cheetahs. Gastroenterology, 1987, 93: 225-233; (b) A S Leopold. Phytoestrogens: Adverse effects on reproduction in California Quail. Science, 1976, 191:98-100; (c) HM Drane and others. Oestrogenic activity of soya-bean products. Food Cosm Tech, 1980, 18: 425-427; (d) S Kimura and others. Development of malignant goiter by defatted soybean with iodine-free diet in rats. Gann, 1976, 67:763-765; (e) C Pelissero and others. Estrogenic effect of dietary soy bean meal on vitellogenesis in cultured Siberian Sturgeon Acipenser baeri. Gen Comp End 83:447-457; (f) Braden and others. The oestrogenic activity and metabolism of certain isoflavones in sheep. Australian J of Agric Res, 1967, 18:335-348.

122. (a) Why Not Meat? (Part 2), Down to Earth News, (Honolulu; HI), Dec/Jan 1998, 1-4; (b) Ralph Ballantine. Transition to Vegetarianism. (Himalayan Institute Press; PA), 1994.

123. WL Voegtlin. The Stone Age Diet. (Vantage Press, Inc.; NY), 1975, 44-45.

124. (a) HL Abrams. A diachronic preview of wheat in homonid nutrition. J Appl Nutr, 1978, 30:41-55;(b) J Goodall. In the Shadow of Man. Boston: 1971.

125. R. Ballantine, op. cit.

126. Why Not Meat? (Part 3). Down to Earth News, (Honolulu; HI). Feb/March 1999, 1-3.

127. F Pottenger, Pottenger's Cats--A Study in Nutrition. (Price-Pottenger Nutrition Foundation, CA), 1997.

128. (a) M Purdey. Are Organophosphate Pesticides Involved in the Causation of Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy (BSE)? J of Nutr Med, 1994, 4:43-82; (b) Ecosystems supporting clusters of sporadic TSEs demonstrate excesses of the radical-generating divalent cation manganese and deficiencies of antioxidant co factors Cu, Se, Fe, Zn. Does a foreign cation substitution at prion protein's Cu domain initiate TSE? Med Hypotheses 2000 Feb 54:2 278-306; (c) High-dose exposure to systemic phosmet insecticide modifies the phosphatidylinositol anchor on the prion protein: the origins of new variant transmissible spongiform encephalopathies? Med Hypotheses 1998 Feb 50:2 91-111.

129. Ibid.

130. D Brown. BSE did not cause variant CJD: an alternative cause related to post-industrial environmental contamination. Med Hypotheses, 2001, 57:5.

131. V Worthington. Nutritional quality of organic versus conventional fruits, vegetables, and grains. J Altern Comp Med, 2001, 7:2:161-173.

132. S Fallon. Nasty, Brutish, and Short? The Ecologist, February 1999.

133. R Audette. Neanderthin, (St. Martin's Press; NY), 1999, 194-5.

134. (a) K Sullivan. The Lectin Report, accessed on January 2, 2002; (b) DL Freed. Do dietary lectins cause disease? Brit Med J, 1999, 318:1023-1024.

135. J Ross. The Diet Cure. (Penguin Books; NY), 1999, 102-113.

136. MG Enig. Know Your Fats, 56-57.

137. HL Abrams. The relevance of Paleolithic diet in detremining contemporary nutritional needs. J Appl Nutr, 1979, 1,2:43-59.

If you enjoyed this article, you may also like: The Blood Moon by Jessica Prentice
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Old 02-15-2008, 05:53 PM   #236
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Ok I'm on overload now so I'll just answer or address the few things I can remember after 7+ pages since I was last online LOL!!

1) EAgle Plumes... that was a just a joke I've always heard from Okie Indian boys up here that indin love was a hickey and a black eye...not that I would ever promote violence nor let any man hit me or he'd walk away without that hand and a few other body parts.... But it's kinda funny to joke about if you know the premise in which they say it. Think of the Man Song- " I don't take no crap!... from anybody else but you....


Josiah, I just wanted to note that all this myth about cattle taking up grain that could feed people is interesting since in Ethiopia, the foods they are trying to introduce to the people there are quick renewable meat sources like chickens and rabbits. Grains these groups send over sit in the customs areas so long they end up rotting and molding ...good for chicken feed but not human consumption anymore..


SIG..... Ok first off you can quit referring to me as a guy just because of the name blackbear... you see my signature? It's a pregnancy ticker and is the FIRST clue I'm a woman.

Second.. you're not fooling anyone with your phony peace talk because anyone who truly believes the cottage cheese you are spewing would'nt be telling anyone they look or sound "retarded". And given that I take care of the developmentally disabled it's extremly insulting that you used that word in the context that you despise people who are "retarded".

I'm beginning to believe you are nothing of what you say you are. I'm inclined to believe you are neither an older woman nor someone who follows the hare krishna, but that this is a phony persona because there is something very very disgenuine about the way you present yourself.

I have suggested this before and I encourage you to take my suggestion now that you need to leave your misconceptions about native american beliefs out of this conversation and start another thread about what YOU think.. and then see what others have to say, but as far as what WE ate... it's not something debateable or even a well kept secret. We ate what we got from the land and meat was a huge part of that.

One last thing... Angie, your comment was way out of line and considering it's the only thing you contributed to this thread in way of discussion looks like all you want to do is get a kick in. Please refrain from doing that again, and please refrain from the sexual innuendo especially used as an insult.
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Old 02-15-2008, 05:56 PM   #237
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Some authorities on vegetarian diet, such as Dr Ralph Ballantine (125), claim that the fear and terror (if any, see myth #15) an animal experiences at death is somehow "transferred" into its flesh and organs and "becomes" a part of the person who eats it.
You gotta be kidding! People actually believe this crap?!
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Old 02-15-2008, 06:04 PM   #238
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Josiah, I just wanted to note that all this myth about cattle taking up grain that could feed people is interesting since in Ethiopia, the foods they are trying to introduce to the people there are quick renewable meat sources like chickens and rabbits. Grains these groups send over sit in the customs areas so long they end up rotting and molding ...good for chicken feed but not human consumption anymore..
I am confused Blackbear where did this come from???
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Old 02-15-2008, 06:08 PM   #239
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North of Ada: Why not? Many of the native nations practiced the eating of heart or liver for honoring the kill and taking on it's strength, and in some cases mild cannabalism for the same reason... Not that I believe that about eating meat myself but if we can believe we take on someone or something strengths, why is is that much harder to believe we take on it's fears as well?


Josiah: It came out of left field... I read that part of the myth and it came to mind one of the documentaries I watched on Africa that was more recent and that came to mind. Sorry for the confusion.
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Old 02-15-2008, 06:11 PM   #240
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North of Ada: Why not? Many of the native nations practiced the eating of heart or liver for honoring the kill and taking on it's strength, and in some cases mild cannabalism for the same reason... Not that I believe that about eating meat myself but if we can believe we take on someone or something strengths, why is is that much harder to believe we take on it's fears as well?


Josiah: It came out of left field... I read that part of the myth and it came to mind one of the documentaries I watched on Africa that was more recent and that came to mind. Sorry for the confusion.
I reread the first Myth and put two and two together and now not confused
LOL
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