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Old 02-15-2008, 06:28 PM   #241
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North of Ada: Why not? Many of the native nations practiced the eating of heart or liver for honoring the kill and taking on it's strength, and in some cases mild cannabalism for the same reason... Not that I believe that about eating meat myself but if we can believe we take on someone or something strengths, why is is that much harder to believe we take on it's fears as well?


Josiah: It came out of left field... I read that part of the myth and it came to mind one of the documentaries I watched on Africa that was more recent and that came to mind. Sorry for the confusion.
Sorry Blackbear - I hadn't intended to offend any natives who believe that way. I apologize.

Josiah - that was a really great article with some very well-thought and coherent points made. I'm convinced after reading it that there will no longer be margarine or shortening used in our house, but plain old butter.

I guess bottom line is there are many merits to eating meat, I will continue to eat meat and enjoy it, but if others feel differently, to each their own.

I do take exception to SiG's campaign to make me feel guilty or less spiritual for eating the way that my people have for centuries..
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Old 02-15-2008, 06:44 PM   #242
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Ok I'm on overload now so I'll just answer or address the few things I can remember after 7+ pages since I was last online LOL!!

1) EAgle Plumes... that was a just a joke I've always heard from Okie Indian boys up here that indin love was a hickey and a black eye...not that I would ever promote violence nor let any man hit me or he'd walk away without that hand and a few other body parts.... But it's kinda funny to joke about if you know the premise in which they say it. Think of the Man Song- " I don't take no crap!... from anybody else but you....


Josiah, I just wanted to note that all this myth about cattle taking up grain that could feed people is interesting since in Ethiopia, the foods they are trying to introduce to the people there are quick renewable meat sources like chickens and rabbits. Grains these groups send over sit in the customs areas so long they end up rotting and molding ...good for chicken feed but not human consumption anymore..


SIG..... Ok first off you can quit referring to me as a guy just because of the name blackbear... you see my signature? It's a pregnancy ticker and is the FIRST clue I'm a woman.

Second.. you're not fooling anyone with your phony peace talk because anyone who truly believes the cottage cheese you are spewing would'nt be telling anyone they look or sound "retarded". And given that I take care of the developmentally disabled it's extremly insulting that you used that word in the context that you despise people who are "retarded".

I'm beginning to believe you are nothing of what you say you are. I'm inclined to believe you are neither an older woman nor someone who follows the hare krishna, but that this is a phony persona because there is something very very disgenuine about the way you present yourself.

I have suggested this before and I encourage you to take my suggestion now that you need to leave your misconceptions about native american beliefs out of this conversation and start another thread about what YOU think.. and then see what others have to say, but as far as what WE ate... it's not something debateable or even a well kept secret. We ate what we got from the land and meat was a huge part of that.

One last thing... Angie, your comment was way out of line and considering it's the only thing you contributed to this thread in way of discussion looks like all you want to do is get a kick in. Please refrain from doing that again, and please refrain from the sexual innuendo especially used as an insult.
I got you part of that hickie thing but I diddnt get her part of it alot of it hurts mah head lol
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Old 02-15-2008, 06:47 PM   #243
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being Cheyenne ive seen men take bites off the liver and heart "cant say it diddnt make my tummy queezy" but ive seen it and it was a real moving thing to see.
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Old 02-15-2008, 08:35 PM   #244
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oh, Joe you just stirred the hornets nest.....LOL!!!!......

I do have a question......if SIG is a stolen navajo, and practicing the hindu religion......what does that make her??? Obviously not a tipi indian or a red-dot indian....hmmm.....
a Hinjo? a Navadu?
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Old 02-15-2008, 09:03 PM   #245
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Both of my Grammas lived to be over 100 years old. Both avoided oleo (what they called margarine) and non-dairy creamers like they were poison. Both ate meat, used real butter, put heavy cream in their coffee, avoided alcohol and were physically active until about a year before they passed.

My Grampa Russell passed at age 70 - an accident while working the barges on Lake Michigan. My Dad is 85, my Mom is 82 and both are still mentally alert. My Dad still hunts, fishes, chops his own firewood.

Diet and exercise have a lot to do with the quality and quantity of life. We ate mostly the meat we got by hunting or fishing when I was young. After Dad moved us to town, we still mostly had fresh or home preserved food. Food came from family members who still lived in the country or (when we lived too far away from our extended family) from going to farms outside the city and getting it direct from the farmer. Even in town, we always had a garden. Our meals were "from scratch" and a bottle of "red pop" was a rare treat.

Reading the labels of store bought food (besides trans-fat) you'll also see that many, many foods contain high-fructose corn syrup. This stuff (according to what I've read) is very bad and causes a lot of health problems too.
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Old 02-16-2008, 08:49 PM   #246
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looks can be deceiving over the computer.i thought you were a great man warrior from alaska..nice picture of the bear in front of the cpomputer.after the shock that you are a woman not a man,im disgusted wuith you and your lucky that we never met face to face and i hope we never do.when a person speaks then its obvious that hey are actually a fool sometinmes. thats how i feel about you,after your last comment. you were way up there as my friend before you r last comment....i sure did laugh ayt the comment about the posting,for hours i couldnt stop.now i think you atre a total frekin fool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 02-16-2008, 08:52 PM   #247
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a Hinjo? a Navadu?
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Old 02-16-2008, 08:52 PM   #248
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looks can be deceiving over the computer.i thought you were a great man warrior from alaska..nice picture of the bear in front of the cpomputer.after the shock that you are a woman not a man,im disgusted wuith you and your lucky that we never met face to face and i hope we never do.when a person speaks then its obvious that hey are actually a fool sometinmes. thats how i feel about you,after your last comment. you were way up there as my friend before you r last comment....i sure did laugh ayt the comment about the posting,for hours i couldnt stop.now i think you atre a total frekin fool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dang, simmer down Obviously you are NOT living up to your handle
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Old 02-16-2008, 09:33 PM   #249
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The Double Danger of High Fructose Corn Syrup

The Double Danger of High Fructose Corn Syrup

By Bill Sanda, BS, MBA

For many years, Dr. Meira Fields and her coworkers at the US Department of Agriculture investigated the harmful effects of dietary sugar on rats. They discovered that when male rats are fed a diet deficient in copper, with sucrose as the carbohydrate, they develop severe pathologies of vital organs. Liver, heart and testes exhibit extreme swelling, while the pancreas atrophies, invariably leading to death of the rats before maturity.

Sucrose is a disaccharide composed of 50 percent glucose and 50 percent fructose. Dr. Fields repeated her experiments to determine whether it was the glucose or fructose moiety that caused the harmful effects. Starch breaks down into glucose when digested. On a copper-deficient diet, the male rats showed some signs of copper deficiency, but not the gross abnormalities of vital organs that occur in rats on the sucrose diet. When the rats were fed fructose, the fatal organ abnormalities occured.

Lysl oxidase is a copper-dependent enzyme that participates in the formation of collagen and elastin. Fructose seems to interfere with copper metabolism to such an extent that collagen and elastin cannot form in growing animals--hence the hypertrophy of the heart and liver in young males. The females did not develop these abnormalities, but they resorbed their litters.(1)

These experiements should give us pause when we consider the great increase in the use of high fructose corn syrup during the past 30 years, particularly in soft drinks, fruit juices and other beverages aimed at growing children, children increasingly likely to be copper deficient as modern parents no longer serve liver to their families. (Liver is by far the best source of copper in human diets.)

"The bodies of the children I see today are mush," observed a concerned chiropractor recently. The culprit is the modern diet, high in fructose and low in copper-containing foods, resulting in inadequate formation of elastin and collagen--the sinews that hold the body together.

BINGEING ON FRUCTOSE

Until the 1970s most of the sugar we ate came from sucrose derived from sugar beets or sugar cane. Then sugar from corn--corn syrup, fructose, dextrose, dextrine and especially high fructose corn syrup (HFCS)--began to gain popularity as a sweetener because it was much less expensive to produce. High fructose corn syrup can be manipulated to contain equal amounts of fructose and glucose, or up to 80 percent fructose and 20 percent glucose.(2) Thus, with almost twice the fructose, HFCS delivers a double danger compared to sugar.

(With regards to fruit, the ratio is usually 50 percent glucose and 50 percent fructose, but most commercial fruit juices have HFCS added. Fruit contains fiber which slows down the metabolism of fructose and other sugars, but the fructose in HFCS is absorbed very quickly.)

In 1980 the average person ate 39 pounds of fructose and 84 pounds of sucrose. In 1994 the average person ate 66 pounds of sucrose and 83 pounds of fructose, providing 19 percent of total caloric energy.(3) Today approximately 25 percent of our average caloric intake comes from sugars, with the larger fraction as fructose.(4)

High fructose corn syrup is extremely soluble and mixes well in many foods. It is cheap to produce, sweet and easy to store. It’s used in everything from bread to pasta sauces to bacon to beer as well as in "health products" like protein bars and "natural" sodas.

FRUCTOSE FOR DIABETICS?

In the past, fructose was considered beneficial to diabetics because it is absorbed only 40 percent as quickly as glucose and causes only a modest rise in blood sugar.(5) However, research on other hormonal factors suggests that fructose actually promotes disease more readily than glucose. Glucose is metabolized in every cell in the body but all fructose must be metabolized in the liver.(6) The livers of test animals fed large amounts of fructose develop fatty deposits and cirrhosis, similar to problems that develop in the livers of alcoholics.

Pure fructose contains no enzymes, vitamins or minerals and robs the body of its micronutrient treasures in order to assimilate itself for physiological use.(7) While naturally occurring sugars, as well as sucrose, contain fructose bound to other sugars, high fructose corn syrup contains a good deal of "free" or unbound fructose. Research indicates that this free fructose interferes with the heart’s use of key minerals like magnesium, copper and chromium. Among other consequences, HFCS has been implicated in elevated blood cholesterol levels and the creation of blood clots. It has been found to inhibit the action of white blood cells so that they are unable to defend the body against harmful foreign invaders.(8)

Studies on the Maillard reaction indicate that fructose may contribute to diabetic complications more readily than glucose. The Maillard reaction is a browning reaction that occurs when compounds are exposed to various sugars. Fructose browns food seven times faster than glucose, resulting in a decrease in protein quality and a toxicity of protein in the body.(9) This is due to the loss of amino acid residues and decreased protein digestibility. Maillard products can inhibit the uptake and metabolism of free amino acids and other nutrients such as zinc, and some advanced Maillard products have mutagenic and/or carcinogenic properties. The Maillard reactions between proteins and fructose, glucose, and other sugars may play a role in aging and in some clinical complications of diabetes.(10)

Fructose reduces the affinity of insulin for its receptor, which is the hallmark of type-2 diabetes. This is the first step for glucose to enter a cell and be metabolized. As a result, the body needs to pump out more insulin to handle the same amount of glucose.(21)

OTHER EFFECTS

Nancy Appleton, PhD, clinical nutritionist, has compiled a list of the harmful effects of fructose in her books Lick the Sugar Habit, Healthy Bones, Heal Yourself With Natural Foods, The Curse Of Louis Pasteur and Lick the Sugar Habit Sugar Counter. She points out that consumption of fructose causes a significant increase in the concentration of uric acid; after ingestion of glucose, no significant change occurs. An increase in uric acid can be an indicator of heart disease.(12) Furthermore, fructose ingestion in humans results in increases in blood lactic acid, especially in patients with preexisting acidotic conditions such as diabetes, postoperative stress or uremia. Extreme elevations cause metabolic acidosis and can result in death.(13)

Fructose is absorbed primarily in the jejunum before metabolism in the liver. Fructose is converted to fatty acids by the liver at a greater rate than is glucose.(14) When consumed in excess of dietary glucose, the liver cannot convert all of the excess fructose in the system and it may be malabsorbed. The portion that escapes conversion may be thrown out in the urine. Diarrhea can be a consequence.(19) A study of 25 patients with functional bowel disease showed that pronounced gastrointestinal distress may be provoked by malabsorption of small amounts of fructose.(26)

Fructose interacts with oral contraceptives and elevates insulin levels in women on "the pill."(17)

In studies with rats, fructose consistently produces higher kidney calcium concentrations than glucose. Fructose generally induces greater urinary concentrations of phosphorus and magnesium and lowered urinary pH compared with glucose.(18)

In humans, fructose feeding leads to mineral losses, especially higher fecal excretions of iron and magnesium, than did subjects fed sucrose. Iron, magnesium, calcium, and zinc balances tended to be more negative during the fructose-feeding period as compared to balances during the sucrose-feeding period.(19)

There is significant evidence that high sucrose diets may alter intracellular metabolism, which in turn facilitates accelerated aging through oxidative damage. Scientists found that the rats given fructose had more undesirable cross-linking changes in the collagen of their skin than in the other groups. These changes are also thought to be markers for aging. The scientists say that it is the fructose molecule in the sucrose, not the glucose, that plays the larger part.(20)

Because it is metabolized by the liver, fructose does not cause the pancreas to release insulin the way it normally does. Fructose converts to fat more than any other sugar. This may be one of the reasons Americans continue to get fatter. Fructose raises serum triglycerides significantly. As a left-handed sugar, fructose digestion is very low. For complete internal conversion of fructose into glucose and acetates, it must rob ATP energy stores from the liver.(21)

Not only does fructose have more damaging effects in the presence of copper deficiency, fructose also inhibits copper metabolism--another example of the sweeteners double-whammy effect. A deficiency in copper leads to bone fragility, anemia, defects of the connective tissue, arteries, and bone, infertility, heart arrhythmias, high cholesterol levels, heart attacks, and an inability to control blood sugar levels.(22)

Although these studies were not designed to test the effects of fructose on weight gain, the observation of increased body weight associated with fructose ingestion is of interest. One explanation for this observation could be that fructose ingestion did not increase the production of two hormones, insulin and leptin, that have key roles in the long-term regulation of food intake and energy expenditure.(23)

HYPERSENSIVITY

The magnitude of the deleterious effects of fructose varies depending on such factors as age, sex, baseline glucose, insulin, triglyceride concentrations, the presence of insulin resistance, and the amount of dietary fructose consumed.(24) Some people are more sensitive to fructose. They include hypertensive, hyperinsulinemic, hypertriglyceridemic, non-insulin dependent diabetic people, people with functional bowel disease and postmenopausal women.(25)

Everyone should avoid over-exposure to fructose, but especially those listed above. One or two pieces of fruit per day is fine, but commercial fruit juices and any products containing high fructose corn syrup aremore dangerous than sugar and should be removed from the diet.

REFERENCES

1. Fields, M, Proceedings of the Society of Experimental Biology and Medicine, 1984, 175:530-537.

2. Appleton, Nancy, PhD, Fructose is No Answer For a Sweetener, http://www.mercola.com/2002/jan/5/fructose.htm.

3. Beatrice Trum Hunter, Confusing Consumers About Sugar Intake, Consumer’s Research 78, no 1 (January 1995): 14-17.

4. Fallon, Sally and Mary Enig, Nourishing Traditions, New Trends Publishing, Washington DC, 2001, p. 23.

5. Hallfrisch, Judith, Metabolic Effects of Dietary Fructose, FASEB Journal 4 (June 1990): 2652-2660.

6. American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, November 2002 Vol. 76, No. 5, 911-922.

7. Appleton, Nancy Ph.D., Fructose is No Answer For a Sweetener, http://www.mercola.com/2002/jan/5/fructose.htm.

8. High Fructose Corn Syrup.

9. H. F. Bunn and P. J. Higgins, Reaction of Nonosaccharides with Proteins; Possible Evolutionary Significance, Science 213 (1981):2222-2244.

10. William L Dills Jr., Protein Fructosylation: Fructose and the Maillard Reaction, American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 58 (suppl) (1993): 779S-787S.

11. Hunter.

12. J. MacDonald, Anne Keyser, and Deborah Pacy, Some Effects, in Man, of Varying the Load of Glucose, Sucrose, Fructose, or Sorbitol on Various Metabolites in Blood, American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 31 (August 1978)): 1305-1311.

13. Hallfrisch, Judith, Metabolic Effects of Dietary Fructose, FASEB Journal 4 (June 1990): 2652-2660.

14. D. Zakim and R. H. Herman, Fructose Metabolism II, American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 21: 315-319, 1968.

15. A. E. Bender and K. B. Damji, Some Effects of Dietary Sucrose, World Review of Nutrition and Dietetics 15 (1972): 104-155.

16. J. J. Rumessen and E. Gudmand-Hoyer, Functional Bowel Disease: Malabsorption and Abdominal Distress After Ingestion of Fructose, Sorbitol, and Fructose-Sorbitol Mixtures, Gastroenterology 95, no. 3 (September 1988): 694-700.

17. Hunter,Beatrice Trum,Confusing Consumers About Sugar Intake, Consumers’ Research 78, no 1 (January 1995): 14-17.

18. A. E. Bergstra, A. G. Lemmens, and A. C. Beynens, Dietary Fructose vs. Glucose Stimulates Nephrocalcinogenesis in Female Rats, Journal of Nutrition 123, no. 7 (July 1993): 1320-1327.

19. R. Ivaturi and C. Kies, Mineral Balances in Humans as Affected by Fructose, High Fructose Corn Syrup and Sucrose, Plant Foods for Human Nutrition 42, no. 2 (1992): 143-151.

20. Roger B. Mc Donald, Influence of Dietary Sucrose on Biological Aging, American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 62 (suppl), (1995): 284s-293s.

21. H. Hallfrisch, et al.,The Effects of Fructose on Blood Lipid Levels, American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, 37: 5, 1983, 740-748.

22. Klevay, Leslie, Acting Director of the U.S. Agriculture Department’s Human Nutrition Research Center, Grand Forks, N.D.

23. Observation by Nancy Appleton, PhD.

24. Hollenbeck, Claire B., Dietary Fructose Effects on Lipoprotein Metabolism and Risk for Coronary Artery Disease, American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 58 (suppl), (1993): 800S-807S.

25. Appleton, Nancy Ph.D., Fructose is No Answer For a Sweetener, http://www.mercola.com/2002/jan/5/fructose.htm
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Old 02-16-2008, 11:10 PM   #250
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looks can be deceiving over the computer.i thought you were a great man warrior from alaska..nice picture of the bear in front of the cpomputer.after the shock that you are a woman not a man,im disgusted wuith you and your lucky that we never met face to face and i hope we never do.when a person speaks then its obvious that hey are actually a fool sometinmes. thats how i feel about you,after your last comment. you were way up there as my friend before you r last comment....i sure did laugh ayt the comment about the posting,for hours i couldnt stop.now i think you atre a total frekin fool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well You have now Crossed the Line
You no longer need to post in this Thread and as far as I am concerned you can ...

LOL
too funny
Those words have the same effect as what you told Blackbear
Only thing different is what you said can get you banned from the website and that would not break my heart
Have a nice day
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Old 02-17-2008, 01:04 AM   #251
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looks can be deceiving over the computer.i thought you were a great man warrior from alaska..nice picture of the bear in front of the cpomputer.after the shock that you are a woman not a man,im disgusted wuith you and your lucky that we never met face to face and i hope we never do.when a person speaks then its obvious that hey are actually a fool sometinmes. thats how i feel about you,after your last comment. you were way up there as my friend before you r last comment....i sure did laugh ayt the comment about the posting,for hours i couldnt stop.now i think you atre a total frekin fool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You know one of my favorite sayings and I tell people all the time "Watch what you say, 'cause you never know who you are speaking to or infront of." Many people don't listen or wont try to understand that. Then it hits them right between the eyes and they always say "Why didn't you tell me?" Well, guess what---we all did, and you were so much better then the rest of us you just don't care about anything or anyone other then your own self and that is very apparent here with all your jiborish that you continue to throw out at all of us.
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Old 02-17-2008, 09:14 AM   #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silence is golden View Post
looks can be deceiving over the computer.i thought you were a great man warrior from alaska..nice picture of the bear in front of the cpomputer.after the shock that you are a woman not a man,im disgusted wuith you and your lucky that we never met face to face and i hope we never do.when a person speaks then its obvious that hey are actually a fool sometinmes. thats how i feel about you,after your last comment. you were way up there as my friend before you r last comment....i sure did laugh ayt the comment about the posting,for hours i couldnt stop.now i think you atre a total frekin fool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OH now you've done it don't you know never cross a Bear. If your such a spiritual person then why are you making threats? seems to me your nothing more than a Hypocrite
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Old 02-17-2008, 11:07 AM   #253
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Instant Karma, Or Instant Breakfast??

Some people are nice, some are not. Some are smart some are dumb, but then there is a separate category for some, as attached.
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Old 02-17-2008, 11:53 AM   #254
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We all should go on Tanka Bar diets! We want Tanka Bars!
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Old 02-17-2008, 12:02 PM   #255
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Some people are nice, some are not. Some are smart some are dumb, but then there is a separate category for some, as attached.
or it could be loopy fruits
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Old 02-18-2008, 10:35 AM   #256
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Quote:
looks can be deceiving over the computer.i thought you were a great man warrior from alaska..nice picture of the bear in front of the cpomputer.after the shock that you are a woman not a man,im disgusted wuith you and your lucky that we never met face to face and i hope we never do.when a person speaks then its obvious that hey are actually a fool sometinmes. thats how i feel about you,after your last comment. you were way up there as my friend before you r last comment....i sure did laugh ayt the comment about the posting,for hours i couldnt stop.now i think you atre a total frekin fool!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How about double dumb? Don't know nothin'; don't know that she don't know nothin'!

Something about SIG is seriously pathological.

That's a great post about high-fructose corn syryp! Start reading your food labels...it is everywhere in processed food.
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Old 02-18-2008, 12:48 PM   #257
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Cool Guts & Grease Diets

Josiah,

Wow! I read through that, and found it very interesting. I personally am not Native American, but have always been fascinated with the culture and way of life of the Indians when the Whites first came over to North America.

I am working on my teaching degree and one of the things that I am hoping to teach in Arizona on one of the reservations there. My mother just retired from working for the State of Arizona and we were talking about how the Hopi and Navaho Reservations are always in need of a good teacher, and they provide living quarters on the reservation for the teachers. When I lived in Arizona, I went to the pow wows that they held at the community college campuses any chance I got.

This is just one of the things that I hope to learn more about, and perhaps find a way to incorporate a more natural diet that the Native Americans had/have into my diet.
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Old 02-18-2008, 01:42 PM   #258
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Thanks for posting all that Josiah! It was ALL very interesting and it all supports my low carb lifestyle....which has been going on in this part of the country for THOUSANDS of years.
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Old 02-18-2008, 02:32 PM   #259
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Thanks for posting all that Josiah! It was ALL very interesting and it all supports my low carb lifestyle....which has been going on in this part of the country for THOUSANDS of years.
I plan on continueing to post this message onto this thread
Although it was sidetracked a few times I was looking for a healthy dicussion about the state of our Health!
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Old 02-18-2008, 02:54 PM   #260
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buffalo meat is the way to go!!!
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