[lilred4220]

Here's My DNA certificate, I finally got it to upload. I am a Mowa Choctaw and proud of it. My great grandmother is Valley Ann Weaver, she is the daughter of Rev. William M. Weaver "Tete" and Annie Reed. Theresa Franks Vann

[ugidali]

I saw a couple of Mowas at the choctaw fair this year.
How did I know they were Mowa band?
They were wearing T-Shirts that said it! he hee.

[LaughingWaterWI]

Originally Posted by veritasxl

I feel you Cherosage, in away the whole enrollment process has become a sham. There's a girl in Cali that's straight up White, but her mom married a full blood with connections who adopted her (I think) and had her in enrolled. She competes in carded powwows and stands out like a 3 -legged mule. It's amazing, especially when there are full bloods who for whatever reason can't get enrolled, and they usually really need help like from IHS (not that it's anything to write home about due to their lack of proper funding.), while a person that doesn't have 1 drop of Ndn blood prances around.

People are always telling me 'I've got lots of Indian blood', then I ask 'what's on your birth certificate?" So it's just like this girl in Cali, her birth records would show white, but she's enrolled as an Indian with full benefits. So unless you want to open a Casino, what is really the benefit of Fed. Recognition, especially since they can continue to take our lands whenever they please? With the shortage of reasonable housing areas like L.A., I believe they will start take more land back in the future.

My great grandparents were on the original Choctaw rolls in OK, but that and $4.00 will buy me a cup of Starbucks.

Here is ......
What I can't understand why?... now everyone who has a drop of NDN in them all of a suddenly wants to be enrolled.....

I think this is getting way out of hand... if you have a relative on the rolls and three generations down the road that same family has lived off of the reservation for those three generations,…… and now all of a sudden they want to be enrolled that does not set right with me or a lot of NDN people.

Do you truly expect these non enrolled people to have the same views as the ones who have been voting, and active in tribal affairs… I doubt it and to add to the confusion of the tribes traditional culture…..So then you go to the pow wows and see people in regalia that is so far from the traditional way it’s more like a new created do what you want as long as it looks pretty….I stopped going to certain pow wows because it for one was to commercial..vendors selling Japan made items this is a disgrace….I know this is a bit off topic but it’s back to Identity and enrollment issues…I mean if you’re not NDN and other tribes say you’re not how do you expect to win in congress????

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by LaughingWaterWI

if you have a relative on the rolls and three generations down the road that same family has lived off of the reservation for those three generations,…… and now all of a sudden they want to be enrolled that does not set right with me or a lot of NDN people.

Why not, because they grew?

Let's cut to your most INCREDIBLE erroneous fallacy: that -- somehow -- being attached to a parcel of land, that is owned by the Federal government, that is (most likely) NOT your ancestral homeland, in any way shape, form or fashion has a DAMNED thing to do with innate Nativeness.

IT DOESN'T.

Now, of course, neither does being enrolled, so why are you threatened/concerned about it? That would be because, to YOU, it DOES mean something: you enjoy being defined by your Master.

Seriously, are my dogs canines because they come from a yard or because the American Kennel Association says that they are? NO! It's because they ARE dogs.

Originally Posted by LaughingWaterWI

Do you truly expect these non enrolled people to have the same views as the ones who have been voting, and active in tribal affairs?

Probably not. And?

Originally Posted by LaughingWaterWI

I know this is a bit off topic but it’s back to Identity and enrollment issues…

Well, I certainly don't find the two to be so erroneously intertwined as those with no Vision that refuse to grow (see above).

Originally Posted by LaughingWaterWI

I think this is getting way out of hand...

What, precisely, would "this" be?

[LaughingWaterWI]

Originally Posted by Zeke

Why not, because they grew?

How? How did they grow? Their parents weren’t enrolled because they were never
into being with their reservation . Next generation...those people knew they had some Indian in them and said things like Hell no Id never live on a reservation all there is is drunks....Next generation... Oh yeah my great great great great Grandmother was part Indian and now maybe I should see if I can become one .... give me a break.
These people have no desire to live among there people or really want to be Indian only for the bennys...
Sincerely I don't know too many who would do it for any other reason than that.. it's not about that they want to know about there culture any more than some of the ones who are enrolled that don't know or practice there culture and traditions that is not the definition of preserving your culture...
Though there are a handful of people who have a drop in them that live on the reservations who really have it in their hearts that want to be accepted and that's where adoption comes into the issue. Because there are girls who have spouses that are NDN and they have children who desire to know their culture but just because you have an ancestor way back does not qualify you to be an enrolled NDN.

.

Let's cut to your most INCREDIBLE erroneous fallacy: that -- somehow -- being attached to a parcel of land, that is owned by the Federal government, that is (most likely) NOT your ancestral homeland, in any way shape, form or fashion has a DAMNED thing to do with innate Nativeness.

Well you are right about that we traveled from place to lace because we never in our minds knew the word OWNERSHIP like the gov. did. and there is a reason why that we went from place to place. when the Removal act took place we were forced to relocate and seeings that we were on these reserves it became the homeland of our ancestors... throiugh agreements that we made in our treatys. This is where we lived called home...because we had a desire to live among our own people ie the term APPLE red on the outside white on the inside...

IT DOESN'T.

Now, of course, neither does being enrolled, so why are you threatened/concerned about it? That would be because, to YOU, it DOES mean something: you enjoy being defined by your Master.
I am not threatend but I hear that a lot of others are... and why is that ? because they want to be enrolled
Are you enrolled? or are you trying to be? and if so what is your reason for wanting to be?

Seriously, are my dogs canines because they come from a yard or because the American Kennel Association says that they are? NO! It's because they ARE dogs.

Your dogs are canines because they wernt created by a kennel association they were created by the creator.



Probably not. And?



Well, I certainly don't find the two to be so erroneously intertwined as those with no Vision that refuse to grow (see above).

My growth was achieved by living among my people. Preserving and Protecting our culture, language and traditions.


What, precisely, would "this" be?

Thats why lowering the blood quantum will never work ... because of false reasons to just be INDIAN in name only.

[DarbyWeaver]

Originally Posted by LaughingWaterWI

Here is ......
What I can't understand why?... now everyone who has a drop of NDN in them all of a suddenly wants to be enrolled.....

I think this is getting way out of hand... if you have a relative on the rolls and three generations down the road that same family has lived off of the reservation for those three generations,…… and now all of a sudden they want to be enrolled that does not set right with me or a lot of NDN people.

Do you truly expect these non enrolled people to have the same views as the ones who have been voting, and active in tribal affairs… I doubt it and to add to the confusion of the tribes traditional culture…..So then you go to the pow wows and see people in regalia that is so far from the traditional way it’s more like a new created do what you want as long as it looks pretty….I stopped going to certain pow wows because it for one was to commercial..vendors selling Japan made items this is a disgrace….I know this is a bit off topic but it’s back to Identity and enrollment issues…I mean if you’re not NDN and other tribes say you’re not how do you expect to win in congress????

I guess I'm late.

Hmmm...

Have you ever seen any of the folks from Mt. Vernon...

If you had you might consider some folks from other tribes... if you just want to consider looks.

For example: My mothers grandfather on her mother's side was a full-blood Commanche and the picture I recall had a lot of feathers in it. It's been a while... but that's what I recall.

Now the name of my grandmother was "White". Strange enough but true. Now as far as I know most of my people on that side lived outside of any reservation in Oklahoma. They just got by as it were.

Now the only daughter of the union between the two was named Ruth, as it were. She married the son of a Texas Ranger and that's how that went.

Now take me and my brother and sister... Hmmm..

Well my dad is from Mt. Vernon and he got no breaks from being there and he's kin to ever Weaver listed in this thread.

His father had green eyes and a lighter tanned skin. My dad has brown eyes, straight black hair and what is probably a full terracotta skin tone.

I guess you could say he's about as "Indian" lookng as you might expect down to the nose and body type.

All of family are similar in appearance.

Now over the past 40-60 years these natives have inter-married a bit. Let's face it the world has become a melting pot.

If you think differently - what planet are you from again?

Anyway - Our people in Mt. Vernon, McIntosh, and all those little towns in between... are there because they were not really allowed to go and be anywhere else.

It's only in the past 35-40 years they were allowed to either live in the "White" towns or the "Black" towns...

But you would say they are not Indians...

Why?

Because they didn't have a school like some of the tribes on reservations back in the pre-1900's?

Because it was a big deal for any Cajun aka Mowa to even have gotten past the 6th grade down in Mt. Vernon... cause that's all the Indian School there had at the time...

Even though many did not get that far and the ones that did (like my dad) still tells stories of waling to school - about 5+ miles through the mud and trails to get to school...

Did you think for a moment that the "White Man" let our folks have anything?

Maybe you ain't been to South Alabama...

They don't call it racism cause it was some kind of "race"...

No, the people now using the term Mowa... managed to keep some of the land.

Recently I called up Regions Bank and made an inquiry about the adjacent land next to my grandmother's heir land where I still own a small parcel.

I asked if they would sell me land. The immediate answer was "No".

The answer changed when I explained my name and why I wanted to buy property immediately adjacent to my own property...

I was told that the Moore Estate would sell the land to my family/people since as it were... the land that Dr. Moore originally had acquired from those same people during his lifetime. I think there are over 25,000 acres immediately surrounding my own land that I currently hold the title too.

See some people remember who we are and how things came to be this way.

It might not be advertised or easily available, but our history is known to some and some of it is recorded.

We just don't have immediate access to every piece of the puzzle.

Not yet.

FYI - My grandfather alone had 7 children and each of them had about an average of 6+ childern and mostly all of them have children now and even those now have children too.

My grandfather had siblings in McIntosh, Sanktown, and Mobile. All have a similar number of direct descendents.

Guess where 90% still live today?

You got it.

Right next to the same Mobile-Washington County Borders aka MOWA.

And now overall we number in the thousands and we are growing by the day...

Quite a fruitful bunch.

Most have inter-married with other familes from the same Tribe.

Some members from other tribes (those members are "whiter" than nearly anyone from Mt. Vernon or McIntosh) and they got married and stayed too.

Some move away for a while ( <1 to 20+ years) but nearly all return eventually to our historical home.

Watch what you say and measure your words carefully my friend.

Our people have not left home...

We have to travel to work and now that a Steel Mill has moved to town that might now stay that way for long...

But as of this generation, many of us work outside of our favored home.

Don't ever make the mistake of saying we don't care or have lost sight of who we are.

We don't roll like that.... Not even close.

We may leave Mt. Vernon and join the military, drive a truck, or work as a contractor somewhere else and nowadays some of us even earn a scholarship (who know these full and half-breeds could actually become educated and rank in the top of our state anyway?... surprise, surprise, surprise... it's history now...); we don't LEAVE HOME...

And WE NEVER FORGET WHERE WE CAME FROM...

Can you or your family say the same? Or each and every tribal member?

America is a big country... last time I checked it all belonged to one tribe or another.

I guess you must have forgotten that part...

We didn't.

We know who we are...

You act like every one of the folks aka MOWA's are washed out by 10-20 generations of other races...

Hah!!!

What are you smokin!!!

Was not too long ago... maybe 1, 2, or 3 max generations our folks couldn't get a ride in a car from another person from the closest towns...

And you think we somehow managed to inter-breed?

Come on down and take a look around sometime.

Not at the Pow-Wow... take a ride down those lonely roads and get off into the dirt and clay roads... go back a bit and visit some of the houses that still don't have a road...

Hah!!!!

Get a look at how things are and while you are there take a look around and take a picture of the all those white people or even black people you seem to think you are going to meet...

If you find one... send me a picture... Unless it is someone who left one of the other close by towns... we get those now and then...

Now forget the beads and feathers...

Look at how our familes live.

Really live... look at what we eat. How we cook...

Take a look at how we hunt and yes, we still hunt. By the way the Bank I mentioned sold us a contract to hunt on our previous lands cause of who we are and who our fathers were so we can still live on our lands... all these years and hunt just like we always did...

But I guess none of that counts for our culture.

Kinda funny - I'd say we really have a tight-knit matriarchial society or culture.

Forget what you read...

I telling you the females are the ones who are the business managers of most of the familes and it has been that way... well forever at least in my family.

I'm a male and I can tell you I spent most of the time with my mother and aunts as did all of us more or less, it's just how we were raised and the men/fathers went to the woods to work mostly and some liek my dad went to another state to work...

We gotta do what we gotta do to pay the bills.

You would fault a man for taking care of his family?

Not every Indian on or near the reservation was sitting around waiting for anything that looked like a handout.

No we did not wait... we were hunters and providers and we did then what we still do today...

We work hard to support our familes and yet you'd say that beats and waters the blood out of us...

We are not Mormons. And we are not saints.

We are who we say we are and how are YOU to tell us differently?

Hmm...

Break it out for me... Cause I missed it.

Whether or not anyone at a Federal Level ever gets a clue....

We are who we are and we will still live here where we live... well until the someone offers a lot more to us than our lands are worth now...

Hey some of us are a bit entrepreneurial too it seems - but most won't sell now...

But I hear we rent a lot of trailors to the migrant Mexican workers these days.

Hah!

We are all Americans and still have to live and pay taxes... Remember we aren't Federally recognized...

WE KNOW WHO WE ARE.

That's just what it is.

I got a digital camera nowadays...

Next trip home, I guess I can start taking the pictures of each family and maybe then pictures will speak louder than words.

If you see the people, the families, the kinship, and the familial relations...

You'll see just how "Indian" our families are.

I guess you'll proably do the same... Why or Why not?

My wife tells me.... "Paper Holds Anything".

And you say we need paper to be who we are...

An Indian need a White Man to tell him who is family is?

Huh!

Did you hear yourself?


BTW - I've seen Indians from one corner to the next of this generation and some are quite white and some are quite dark... maybe too dark... for your taste but those are not all in South Alabama.

Hell a lot of the "Indians" who run the Casino in South Alabama are quite "White" and would seem closer to my mom's family on the plains of Oklahoma and Northern Texas more than the indigineous peoples of the Mississippi Basin and Bayous...

What do I know... I've been away for 22 years.

My folks still mostly live where they lived they lived for generations and generations...

Maybe someone got generous and "gave them the lands"...

Yes, I guess that's it.

[LaughingDog]

Thank you Darby for your good words Cousin
I am your relitive from the Jim Weaver Clan
and Lemuel Byrd Clan glad to see we are all gathering ourselfs up
to Honor Our Ancestor in a good way
Blessing to you I look forward to sharing our family storys
Sheilah

Originally Posted by DarbyWeaver

Allow me to speak, if you will...

I'm from Mount Vernon and my family is one of the ones from the "MOWA" Band of Choctaw Indians.

I think a lot of people have been told a lot of things they think based on the information they have received.

124 of us... You have not been to my home lately. My own family just from my own grandfather numbers in the hundreds alone.

My family is joined from 2 of the 4 main families that are mentioned in the book "They Say The Wind is Red".

Not Indian? Perhaps you have not seen a few of the pictures of the my family and kinfolk.

Mixed - I can say a lot are these days. After all a couple of hundered years is a couple of hundred years.

Most of the older generations had large families often with 7 or more children reaching adulthood. My family was one of them.

White or Black or just something in between?

Hmmm...

Let me speak for those in Mount Vernon since I am from there and a bit better versed in our situation.

1. We are not black and have a distinct community that is not black.

2. We are not white and have a distinct community that is not white.

3. Those is neighboring areas call us cajuns, indians, or just "you people or your people".

4. We have suffered and continue to suffer from neglect.

5. We are not from the town of Mount Vernon.

6. We are not from the town of Citronelle.

7. Our community stands alone.

If there is a domestic dispute or any dispute involving weapons or violence. The police quietly wait typically over 30-60 minutes for the gunpowder to settle before they decide to visit and usually call it a simple "family dispute".

I've been there and watched it happen.

We are less than loved by our neighbors. We are impoverished.

I've seen where some people have asked for formal records...

Hahahahah!

We are in the 21st century and we are just now numbering a more than a score of our people who even have a college degree.

30 years ago, there were only a handful.

In 1900 - 1950 or so, most of our folks had to walk more than 5 miles to attend school and as a result many only had a poor 3rd thru 6th grade education.

But it was ok, since we were just poor indians who belonged to a white man and whose only input to society was to get our land stolen for the value less than .50 per acre and for groceries needed to survive at a "Company Store".

But then we did gather turpentine and gather pulp wood etc. as well.

We raised our own crops and animals, drank water from a spring and lived in our own fashion.

We had a few a juke joints and we used them. I guess it kept our minds off of the education we did not have.

Or worrying about our lands being stolen acre by acre from us as we needed a little money to feed the little ones.

I went home this past week.

I listened as a mother told me the story of how a high school principal performed a "cavity search" on her child (a MOWA of dark complexion and straight black hair) and how this child was continuously chastised until he dropped out of school.

She did not finish her own high school education (the only child from her family that did not) and felt her word not as good as a white man's to the school district.

Our people live though this daily and you try to tell us that we are not what we are.

We've paid for our geneology for over 200 years of this type of treatment which continues today.

My own niece who happens to be of a fair complexion and brown eyes, a nice girl of 16 years recently suffered as well from this malice towards our people.

It is a crime.

When I attended high school there, we also had our problems and once had a race riot. There was some blood and there were write-ups about how the indians went on some kind of rampage and scalped the white man. Written by the kindly white folk from Citronelle, no doubt.

Why are we indians when it comes to receiving all of the benefits of racial hatred, malice, and evil?

Why are we not in other cases?

Can someone explain this to me, because I do not understand it so well?

We have not asked for much. This Federal Recognition thing seems to be something that might allow us to get decent medical care, provide education which might lead to better job opportunities.

Today we have a small volunteer fire department. We have no EMS services - many of our people die as a result. That is correct die. Read the obituaries.

The land that was stolen from us, was given to chemical companies. They have poisoned us. We are now dying at the rate of about 1 person per month due to some form carcinogenic.

We have had over a dozen stillbirths, We have at least 4
"waterhead babies" (statistically 1 in 200,000 or so - we only have about 6000 people in our communities).

We have been told about the mercury in our water. We have toxins in our air less than 3-5 miles away from us.

We are in a time of drastic need for something.

So if you want to call us something, call us wretched.

We need the ability to defend ourselves.

We have issues with drugs and alcohol in our community. We need the ability to police ourselves and protect our childern.

We need a lot of the same things, most other communities take for granted.

We've recently been told about the toxins in our drinking water provided by the government.

I heard a lot of things aout the Jena Band and I would advise you look at their story a little closer.

They were not that much different than the MOWA Band.

They just got recongnised a bit quicker than the MOWA Band.

If you need to contact me feel free to do so. I am going to take pictures of some of my folks and it might be worth it to create the family trees of some of them and put it on the Internet so others might get a chance to see firsthand what they are being told and then make their own educated opinion.

We are a handful of communities that are pretty much isolated from the White Folks and the Black Folks. It has always been this way.

To now say we are not what we have always been, is truly a travesty.

Especially from others who would otherwise share our lineage and history.

We are those who did not sign papers and simply walk away. We've stayed and it has not been easy, but we have stayed.

Today, it is difficult to buy any land from our peoples, they simply will not sell to outsiders. It's all we have left and we try to keep it on our families.

Comment if you like.

Darby Weaver

[Bbird]

Is there an official website. I couldn't find one.

[Bbird]

I saw something about a Tribal Mother on facebook.
Tribal mother of the Mowa Choctaws. They are havigna powwow this month.

[Shawrakee]

.

[hapayy_hajjo]

The posted article states:

"It should be noted that one of the progenitors of the MOWA Choctaw described in our petition to the BAR has been traced to a person with an Anglicized name, Chief Tom Gibson (a.k.a. Eli-Tubbee, Elah, Tubbee, or Elatatabe). He lived in Washington County, Mississippi Territory (presently Washington County, Alabama) until 1813 when the influx of whites caused him to move to Killistamaha (English Town) clan of the Six Towns located in southeastern corner of the present boundary of the state of Mississippi, just miles from the current southwest Alabama location of our MOWA Choctaw community. John Gibson, James Gibson, and ' were in Mobile area in 1850 as shown in U.S. government correspondence and 1880 census. However, the BAR discounted this information because the 1860 census described her probable place of birth as Georgia, her father’s North Carolina, and her mother’s Virginia (TR-MOWA 1994:75-76). The BAR concluded that the link is “based on oral tradition only” (TR-MOWA 1994:75) rather than acknowledging that the census information itself was ambiguous."

NOTE 1:
The ancestor claimed in the actual MOWA petition was Betsy "Sipsey" Gibson, wife of William Thomas Byrd. The petition was implying a connection to Tom Gibson (Chief Eli-tub-bee) based on proximity, claiming parentage to John, James and Betty, based on the fact that he lived or operated NEAR the MOWA community. But just to clarify: the actual BAR response reference the 1880 census data elements NOT the 1860 census (as stated in this article). On the 1880 census she is listed as White and her birth in GA, father's in NC...mother's in VA. But she was also found on the 1850, 1860, and 1870 census records...consistently as White. How is this information on the 1880 census ambiguous? Also, if this census data is incorrect...and the claimed oral history is true...does anyone know who Tom Gibson's wife was? I would be interested to know more...

NOTE 2:
The article also states, "The BAR concluded that the link is “based on oral tradition only” (TR-MOWA 1994:75)"
- Not sure what 1994:75 refers to and the quote "based on oral tradition only" but on page 118 of the Proposed Findings, from Dec. 16, 1994...BAR provides context for the sources claimed and provides more response than simply dismissing oral tradition.

If anyone is interested in the actual BAR response, see link below...also, if anyone has more MOWA responses or rebuttals to this BAR/BIA rejection and can post - would appreciate it!

http://64.38.12.138/adc20/Mbc/V001/D005.PDF