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Old 08-02-2011, 06:55 PM   #21
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I know this is totally off subject and not trying to pick a side or anything. I don't see the wetlands as a sacred place since we were forced to go to boarding schools, etc. I myself went to Haskell for a year and well...moving on.

After thinking about boarding schools and the purpose of these places, I find it odd that natives would still want to attend these places that were associated with oppression of identity and abuse until converted. I know the boarding schools in Oklahoma tend to house children who have parents that just don't want to raise them and would rather drink and party than raise the children they had. It's disturbing and shameful and at the same time, might be a safer environment for the children in question.

That being said, I know Haskell is no longer a boarding school but a college. It is one of four colleges I have attended (love that college hopping) But I have to agree, if they do not own the wetlands, they don't have much say over it and they should be looking for ways of improving education.....or better yet...how to keep their drop out rate from being so high. My second semester, close to 100 students had dropped out in the first month.

I know...this isn't relevant but whatever....I wanted to type ;)
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Old 08-27-2011, 10:41 AM   #22
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For the record, I had to drive K10 into Lawrence yesterday at ~5:35 PM.

An SLT is necessary.

Wetlands are not and Haskell is questionable.
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Old 08-27-2011, 10:05 PM   #23
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lol well look at that a zombie troll
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Old 08-28-2011, 01:01 AM   #24
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lol well look at that a zombie troll
Cut yourself some slack.

You MAY not be a zombie...

You -- certainly -- have little point, efficacy or credibility.
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Old 09-08-2011, 01:56 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by CandaePrincess View Post
I know this is totally off subject and not trying to pick a side or anything. I don't see the wetlands as a sacred place since we were forced to go to boarding schools
No, that is the point: well hit by you. The wetlands are NOT inherently sacred unless you wallow in victimhood.

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After thinking about boarding schools and the purpose of these places, I find it odd that natives would still want to attend these places that were associated with oppression of identity and abuse until converted.
Fear, invented tradition and entitlements that merely make us social children.

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That being said, I know Haskell is no longer a boarding school but a college. It is one of four colleges I have attended (love that college hopping) But I have to agree, if they do not own the wetlands, they don't have much say over it and they should be looking for ways of improving education.....or better yet...how to keep their drop out rate from being so high. My second semester, close to 100 students had dropped out in the first month.

I know...this isn't relevant but whatever....I wanted to type ;)
No, your retort is BEYOND relevant.
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Old 09-08-2011, 01:35 PM   #26
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Just a second guys... in property law and at common, easements rights may have been expressly or implied by the servient estate (party granting the right or holding the burden) to the dominant estate (party gaining the benefit). Arguing that Haskell has no rights to the land may be a bit premature as courts deal with implied rights as a matter of course. Implied rights have historically at common law, been found in cases where there has been evidence of use and custom by the dominant estate. Haskell will have to prove and met these
three requirements:

•The easement must be at least reasonably necessary to the enjoyment of the original piece of property.
•The land must be divided (or "severed"), so that the owner of a parcel is either selling part and retaining part, or subdividing the property and selling pieces to different new owners.
•The use for which the implied easement is claimed must have existed prior to the severance or sale.

So until that has been ruled upon or decided... not much point with the yes they do, no they don't argument.


Same goes for the argument that Haskell has no standing in the matter. If they are proven to have had custom and use of the land either expressly or implied, then yup... they will have standing. Even if they aren't found to have standing, they may be granted intervenor status in any future litigation. Now that status will come with its own definitions set out by the court and Haskell will have to meet them so it's not automatic just because they are an entity adjacent to the property.

I'd also hazard a guess that other legal issues are up for a Court's decision such as Conservation Easement - did/has the property owner enter into an agreement with the government for purposes of conserving the area. Have the owners of the property benefited from tax benefits that upon the dissolution of any agreement might cause hardship etc... I haven't seen in either of your arguments the information that the owner of the property is fighting the appropriation for the SLT - if they want to sell, grant. gift or otherwise dispose of their rights to the state, Haskell is at best a secondary player in the event. So unless either one of your guys have knowledge or access to the court docs, not much point banging on about additional legal grounds.
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Old 09-08-2011, 01:44 PM   #27
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exactly. oh and hate to keep bringing this up, but like the article says and like i have pointed out despite the fact that the troll seems to not notice reality, we -do- own a sizable portion of the wetlands.. drrrrr
(which includes where the state is trying to put the highway, that has been successfully prevented though court actions by Haskell students and Lawrence community ever since they tried to start the highway all those years ago)

....
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Old 09-08-2011, 02:41 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HaskellAlum View Post
exactly. oh and hate to keep bringing this up, but like the article says and like i have pointed out despite the fact that the troll seems to not notice reality, we -do- own a sizable portion of the wetlands.. drrrrr
(which includes where the state is trying to put the highway, that has been successfully prevented though court actions by Haskell students and Lawrence community ever since they tried to start the highway all those years ago)

....
Err... In the blog article (and please note that the bias of the article is intrinsic as the author is a member of one of the clubs involved with the Wetlands)... I can't seem to find the reference where the city of Lawrence deeded that land to Haskell, I see a notation that 500 acres were given to Baker but can't find the Haskell reference you are relying upon. Can you provide a citation and source? Are Baker and Haskell one and the same?

Second, calling someone a troll is not going to make your argument any heavier in fact. Since Zeke lives in the area, I can only surmise that his knowledge of the area and local politics is accurate. He pointed out to you that Haskell does not own the land, you did not provide any alternative source above a weblog article. I can write the that moon is purple in my blog but unless I can back up my assertion with sources... it's all liberally and imaginative penned prose. Provide your sources that you are relying upon.

Last edited by yaahl; 09-08-2011 at 04:09 PM.. Reason: I have Brown U on the brain today...thanks Zeke
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Old 09-08-2011, 03:13 PM   #29
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I believe it to be well established that:

1. I am not a troll although I do enjoy crushing whiny entitlement losers.
2. Haskell does NOT own the land where an SLT would pass.
3. Baker University (via Lawrence) owns right to the proposed land.
4. Lawrence wants, needs, desires and supports the SLT.

In sum, do the math.

This isn't hard.

And, as for HaskellAlum's claim of his alma mater's rights, squatting on Federal Surplus land isn't the same as "ownership." (Which is ANOTHER fallacy I've tried to convince brainwashed Natives they haven't quite grasped yet.)

Last edited by Zeke; 09-08-2011 at 04:43 PM..
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Old 09-08-2011, 04:28 PM   #30
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baker owns "x" amount of the "Haskell-Baker Wetlands" implies that baker owns part while haskell retains ownership of the other part.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haskell-Baker_Wetlands

http://www.sacredland.org/haskell-baker-wetlands/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7Kye..._safety_mode=1

http://kansas.sierraclub.org/Issues/...Trafficway.htm

i did a simple google search for haskell baker wetlands and these are some of the first returns. I don't necassarily agree with everything single thing on them but perhaps that will show the joint ownership details, and that the original plan would cross through Haskell land.
btw the flute music of the video is a bit cheesy, just a warning.

on a side note, the last time i used the bathroom i believe i was still in ownership of male parts.
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Old 09-08-2011, 04:52 PM   #31
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from my understanding a troll is someone who posts to provoke an inflammatory response.
insulting me directly and vehemently when i posted a tactful statement of disagreement, in my opinion, would fall under this category.
there are also other parts of posts i could nit pick to further my argument, but honestly i lack a desire to go to these lengths. suffice it to say i don't need to waste my life going through a negative persons posts when i have better things to be doing than devoting my life to online forums or working in a droll sales position watching my essence drain out.
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Old 09-08-2011, 04:53 PM   #32
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God, what laughable tripe.

Did you just use Wikipedia? Is that considered a source for a paper at Haskell?

After reading -- and (sigh) watching -- each of those lame attempts to justify your position, all you've done is indicate that SOME people refer to the area as the Haskell-Baker wetlands yet nowhere is there anything related to Haskell continuing (questionable in the first place) to own any portion of the area: since it was all declared Federal surplus and sold to the City of Lawrence some years ago.

Oh, there are some weak and New Age worthy attempts to craft some sort of ownership due to long-term squatters rights and Native burials (where hasn't a Native been buried in this country?) but this attempt to throw every possible Google article against the wall in hope that something sticks has fallen FLAT.

Seriously, Wikipedia?

Let's get down to brass tacks. This is Federal surplus land, that students have squatted on, that was sold to Lawrence then ceded as a gift (the part we're discussing regarding the SLT) to Baker University.

Now you, and others, can continue whining that it was Haskell's de facto off campus reservation but, just like every other reservation in America, all you're admitting is that it never was your land. (Being FEDERAL Reserve land and all, before belonging to Lawrence, before being ceded to Baker...)

Again, Wikipedia?

Perhaps you should just remain silent: it undermines your credibility less.

I'm looking forward to the SLT.

I DO love it when you get your tail kicked, get all huffy, then take your ball and go home.

Last edited by Zeke; 09-08-2011 at 05:03 PM..
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Old 09-08-2011, 06:21 PM   #33
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Hmm... so KDOT agreed with the owners of the land, Baker U(thanks Zeke for pointing out my mistake)to fund separately, 142 acres of the area to be fully remediated and restored. Funding despite the holdup with other litigation regarding the highway, has been underway for the last 2 years.

Funny how that wasn't mentioned in the original article or in any of HA's missives.

So if I understand this correctly, the "wetland" was dried out and turned into a farm field, then flooded again then back to farm land (repeatedly)all within the last 150 years. So explain the "Historical" significance of this land if its face has been altered several times over - I'm not getting whether it should be saved as farm land or wetland... seems the land has been both and also seems to have a nifty medicine wheel carved out of what would be otherwise wildlife habitat?

Last edited by yaahl; 09-08-2011 at 06:22 PM.. Reason: ETA, in the article I referenced the pics all show Baker Wetlands - Haskell's name is absent
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Old 09-08-2011, 07:13 PM   #34
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Quote:
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Hmm... so KDOT agreed with the owners of the land, Baker U(thanks Zeke for pointing out my mistake)to fund separately, 142 acres of the area to be fully remediated and restored. Funding despite the holdup with other litigation regarding the highway, has been underway for the last 2 years.
While there's no 100% assurance that we are correct, that's how I see it, too.

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Funny how that wasn't mentioned in the original article or in any of HA's missives.
Well, see, that would undermine the entire theory of being a maligned and oppressed entity since -- you know -- there's not even a stake held in the matter...

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So if I understand this correctly, the "wetland" was dried out and turned into a farm field, then flooded again then back to farm land (repeatedly) all within the last 150 years. So explain the "Historical" significance of this land if its face has been altered several times over - I'm not getting whether it should be saved as farm land or wetland... seems the land has been both and also seems to have a nifty medicine wheel carved out of what would be otherwise wildlife habitat?
To my knowledge, the above missive is completely factual and I concur with your assessment.

Now, to soften my edge just a bit, it's not that I have anything inherently against wetlands, Haskell graduates (if they've maintained the ability to think for themselves) or specifically Haskell (if it gets its act together). Nor I am short of empathy for the -- for whatever reason -- outpouring of heartache or pain that isolated Natives may have felt walking through the marshland trying to recall what it was like to be "home" over the past 100 or so years.

I get that.

I, also, get that some folks just want to save marshland.

That's fine.

But you're going to have to come up with a better argument than "it's ours" or "it's owed to us" or "it's our history" because it is NONE of those things.

And you're going to have to come up with a more pressing social need than that of the tens of thousands of people, daily, who would benefit from the SLT.

And you're going to have to be able to lay that out in a direct, logical, completely supportable and alternative laden manner because traffic in southeast Lawrence is ever increasing along with the pressure to start construction.

In sum, this isn't going away and, over time, the greater social good WILL be had regardless of the plaintive wails of entitlement/reparations leeches that never cease to whine, anyway.

Given that, perhaps the fanatics -- who have ZERO legal claim to this land -- could focus their energies on something more productive like, oh say, graduation rates at Haskell?

Last edited by Zeke; 09-08-2011 at 07:21 PM..
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Old 09-08-2011, 08:13 PM   #35
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"I, also, get that some folks just want to save marshland.

That's fine.

But you're going to have to come up with a better argument than "it's ours" or "it's owed to us" or "it's our history" because it is NONE of those things"



Wetlands should/need to be saved, not because they are somehow "sacred" (land is land), or because of some (invented) symbol someone placed on it, or because of some school .

They should be saved because they are essential ecological features of the landscape.
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Old 09-09-2011, 01:15 AM   #36
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Join Date: Jul 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jack2011 View Post
They should be saved because they are essential ecological features of the landscape.
Well, that's a better argument but it is hard to sell that the minimal size of the area in question represents -- or has ever been used for -- a completely self-sustainable habitat and/or flood plain: it's always existed at the whim of man made variables.

Whilst some will bemoan a loss of waterfowl and such, SLT development could certainly be managed in such a way as to minimize any potential water table impact.
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Old 07-29-2012, 09:23 PM   #37
Self-Righteous Injun
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HaskellAlum View Post
...i don't need to waste my life going through a...persons posts when i have better things to...
Like being wrong, as predicted?

Federal 10th Circuit Court of Appeals issued a ruling that will allow the bypass to be built.
  1. Folks say they have "better things to do" when they realize they've lost an argument.
  2. Legally, there was never an argument here as Haskell possessed no standing.
  3. All Haskell activists have done is generate local scorn via misplaced fervor.
  4. Strategically, all the hoopla was a net loss for area American Indians.

I get it. We all want to believe in something, grow, and give a bit back but this was a poor windmill to tilt at that needlessly consumed resources which could have been used on relevant projects like graduation rates at Haskell.

Priorities, man...
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