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Old 12-07-2006, 10:15 AM   #1
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A.I.I. Alert # 40 - Mattaponi & Pamunkey Peoples Still In Danger!

Your Help Is Needed Now!
This is the same project we've been telling you about
for the last four years!
This Project Will Devastate the Mattaponi and Pamunkey
Tribal Grounds and Economic Life!









Newport News Seeks End Run on King William Reservoir
State Water Control Board Meets December 14th to “Reconsider” Permit Decision
The Chesapeake Bay Foundation needs your help today.
The City of Newport News is seeking to reverse a September decision by the Virginia State Water Control Board denying a permit extension to build the King William Reservoir. Newport News has asked the Board to "reconsider" the denial at the Board's December 14th meeting in Richmond. The problem: no such process to "reconsider" a Board decision exists in Virginia law. The only legal options available to a disgruntled party are a formal Board appeal or litigation in the courts. This is an attempt to reverse an important Board decision outside established procedures, YET IT IS ON THE BOARD'S DECEMBER 14th MEETING AGENDA!


Please send a letter to the Chairman of the Board and Board staff to express your concern over this matter.

https://secure2.convio.net/cbf/site/...0tacvd1.app24a

CBF believes any “reconsideration” of a final Board decision is illegal and improper. Existing public process rules were established to provide the public with confidence and certainty that all parties will abide by the same rules and work on a level playing field. Any attempt to circumvent the well-established public process will give one party--Newport News--an unfair advantage, jeopardize the administrative process, and establish bad precedent for all future Board actions.
Also, please attend the Board’s hearing on December 14th at 1 pm in the General Assembly Building. CBF believes that citizens should come out to demand a fair and thoughtful process. For more information on hearing details, please contact Nina Luxmoore at [email protected] org or 804.780.1392, ext 310.

Read news coverage and more information on this issue:
State Water Control Board staff urges extension of NN reservoir permit
Fight on reservoir isn't over yet
More Information on King William Reservoir Permiting


Thanks!
Nina Luxmoore
Assistant Director of Government Relations
Chesapeake Bay Foundation


www.cbf.org/ | Unsubscribe
CBF Virginia State Office, 1108 East Main Street, Suite 1600, Richmond, VA, 23219
© Copyright 2006, Chesapeake Bay Foundation. All rights reserved.




WHAT WILL YOU DO!



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Old 12-08-2006, 05:48 AM   #2
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You know all this says is that some decision was made and people want them to reconsider it and that by law there is no such place for reconsideration.... So what's the main problem here? How does it effect these folks and why?
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Old 12-08-2006, 08:28 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackbear
You know all this says is that some decision was made and people want them to reconsider it and that by law there is no such place for reconsideration.... So what's the main problem here? How does it effect these folks and why?
Because the city of Newport News has kept this alive for over 10 years.
Each time it's shot down, they manage to bring it back.
You know how the back door legal sessions can be, one minute their saying
it's illegal and the next it's getting done anyway.

As for what it affects. The issue has been posted here before. The reason it's
such a serious fight is because if this dam goes up and the lake is formed.
It will wipe out the Mattaponi ancestral lands and most of the Pamukey.
On top of this, both tribes will loose their number one source of income in the
Shad fishery.
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Old 12-08-2006, 09:43 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wepunkwteme
Because the city of Newport News has kept this alive for over 10 years.
Each time it's shot down, they manage to bring it back.
You know how the back door legal sessions can be, one minute their saying
it's illegal and the next it's getting done anyway.

As for what it affects. The issue has been posted here before. The reason it's
such a serious fight is because if this dam goes up and the lake is formed.
It will wipe out the Mattaponi ancestral lands and most of the Pamukey.
On top of this, both tribes will loose their number one source of income in the
Shad fishery.
For those of us who may have missed that thread, could you provide a link?
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Old 12-08-2006, 09:57 AM   #5
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I know the Mattaponi are a state-recognized tribe in Virginia hoping for federal recognition, but I don't believe the Pamunkey are even an organized group are they? I know there are probably some people around who have miniscule amounts of Pamunkey blood, but not enough to have a tribe huh?

That said, I'd like to hear an official statement from the Mattaponi tribal leadership on this issue. No offense to Wepunkteme, but I always like to hear from tribal leaders and those in true power in a tribe rather than activists.
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Old 12-08-2006, 10:28 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wojapi4Me
I know the Mattaponi are a state-recognized tribe in Virginia hoping for federal recognition, but I don't believe the Pamunkey are even an organized group are they? I know there are probably some people around who have miniscule amounts of Pamunkey blood, but not enough to have a tribe huh?

That said, I'd like to hear an official statement from the Mattaponi tribal leadership on this issue. No offense to Wepunkteme, but I always like to hear from tribal leaders and those in true power in a tribe rather than activists.
The Pamunkey along with the Mattaponi have the
original and oldest reservations in the Western Hemisphere.
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Old 12-08-2006, 11:19 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by between2worlds
For those of us who may have missed that thread, could you provide a link?
http://www.powwows.com/gathering/showthread.php?t=24072



http://www.powwows.com/gathering/showthread.php?t=30683
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Old 12-08-2006, 12:12 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wojapi4Me
I know the Mattaponi are a state-recognized tribe in Virginia hoping for federal recognition, but I don't believe the Pamunkey are even an organized group are they? I know there are probably some people around who have miniscule amounts of Pamunkey blood, but not enough to have a tribe huh?

That said, I'd like to hear an official statement from the Mattaponi tribal leadership on this issue. No offense to Wepunkteme, but I always like to hear from tribal leaders and those in true power in a tribe rather than activists.
Well the Pamunkey have a website and a reservation. Here's the link: http://www.baylink.org/Pamunkey/2fr_history.html

The tribe is recognized by the Commonwealth of Virginia and is additionally on the list of federally recognized tribes : http://www.indians.org/Resource/FedT...6/region6.html
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Old 12-08-2006, 12:17 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by between2worlds
Well the Pamunkey have a website and a reservation. Here's the link: http://www.baylink.org/Pamunkey/2fr_history.html

The tribe is recognized by the Commonwealth of Virginia and is additionally on the list of federally recognized tribes : http://www.indians.org/Resource/FedT...6/region6.html
Ok, I stand corrected that they're state recognized, but that information about them being federally recognized is just incorrect. I checked and according to the feds, its recognized as a state reservation - whatever that is. But anyhoo, the information on that site about the two tribes in Virginia having federal acknowledgment is incorrect. The Cherokee Tribe of Virginia doesn't even exist.

I still wonder what the leaders of these two tribes have to say on the issue presented.
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Old 12-08-2006, 12:23 PM   #10
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I sent email to the email link provided at the Mattaponi website inviting the tribal leadership to either comment here in the forums or provide information on their website and send the link for posting. Perhaps they will respond?
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Old 12-08-2006, 12:25 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wojapi4Me
Ok, I stand corrected that they're state recognized, but that information about them being federally recognized is just incorrect. I checked and according to the feds, its recognized as a state reservation - whatever that is. But anyhoo, the information on that site about the two tribes in Virginia having federal acknowledgment is incorrect. The Cherokee Tribe of Virginia doesn't even exist.

I still wonder what the leaders of these two tribes have to say on the issue presented.
With the feds, who knows? Since the federal thrust is to find ways to make us all disappear it can mean anything

Thanks for the info on the Cherokee Tribe of Virginia.
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Old 12-08-2006, 02:56 PM   #12
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I have and always will have.....

An issue with folks who view Non-Treaty Skins as null and void? Long before there was a United States of America and the Constitution and so on....Indigenous peoples exsisted with our very own particulars and so on.....Some Tribes had interactions with Europeans long before there was a U.S. Fed Government.....This wasn't 100 or so years ago...It was 400 or so years ago....Virginia is situated on what is now known as the Eastern U.S. The history is just different...Why can't people realize that and consider it? So while the wars and God knows what was taking place...mind you long before the Federal Gov of the US came to be...Indians, Tribes...had working relationships with the English, the Dutch, the French, and So on....Now when you compare that to Tribes West of the Missippi, sure there was interaction, but several Tribes out here struck up "agreements" with the US Government a number of years later....What about the Tribes who were back East? Gee I wonder? Some would say they were eradicated, or vanished or so on....No! they endured in a number of possible ways to keep their ancestral homelands (not haul azz somewhere else) and exist as a people....Now here comes 1992 and for some strange reason being Indian became POPULAR....So now from what I see people from other parts of the country see groups in other parts as "bandwagon" jumpers or "Johnny come latelys..." Well in fact their not.....Sure there is some strange stuff that goes on out there, but keep in mind its not all the horse of the same color....
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Old 12-08-2006, 02:59 PM   #13
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I didn't even know that there was a Cherokee Tribe of VA.
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Old 12-13-2006, 12:42 PM   #14
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....Now here comes 1992 and for some strange reason being Indian became POPULAR....So now from what I see people from other parts of the country see groups in other parts as "bandwagon" jumpers or "Johnny come latelys..." ...

Coyot,

Ironically, the reason for the 1992 surge in being Indian, coincides with the 1992 surge in Indian casinos!

I have heard many, many, many, (did I also include, "too many") instances where individuals correlate being Indian to "not paying taxes and receiveing free government benefits and income."

How wrong is this prevalent theory in the majority of American minds?

__


The Mattaponi and Pomonkey people, like the rest of the tribes on the east coast met the onslaught of European "invasion" 200 to 500 years before the interior plains Indians. This fact directly correlates with the desintigration of culture for the Mattaponi and Pomonkey people.

I actually work with a Pomonkey Indian and have met a few Mattaponi!
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Old 12-13-2006, 01:00 PM   #15
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Not meaning to get my tail in a bunch....

It's just frustrating when people are not familar with each other and judgements are passed. hey we're all judgemental....Take things at face value and tend to go by what we hear....However its enlightening when we take the time to get to know folks, realize just where they are coming from and respect that fact. Granted I scratch my head from time 2 time and raise an eyebrow or two, but I keep that tucked in my back pocket....Over the past 10 years or so i've realized that I can't be so judgemental....I've met people who prove that very fact to me....So I keep an open mind. Who me your articulate and you travel....I remember your family when I was a boy. You come from good people and you carry yourself in a positive way....Be sure and enjoy the Holiday Season....Wadv
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Old 12-13-2006, 01:19 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coyot_In_The_House
An issue with folks who view Non-Treaty Skins as null and void? Long before there was a United States of America and the Constitution and so on....Indigenous peoples exsisted with our very own particulars and so on.....Some Tribes had interactions with Europeans long before there was a U.S. Fed Government.....This wasn't 100 or so years ago...It was 400 or so years ago....Virginia is situated on what is now known as the Eastern U.S. The history is just different...Why can't people realize that and consider it? So while the wars and God knows what was taking place...mind you long before the Federal Gov of the US came to be...Indians, Tribes...had working relationships with the English, the Dutch, the French, and So on....Now when you compare that to Tribes West of the Missippi, sure there was interaction, but several Tribes out here struck up "agreements" with the US Government a number of years later....What about the Tribes who were back East? Gee I wonder? Some would say they were eradicated, or vanished or so on....No! they endured in a number of possible ways to keep their ancestral homelands (not haul azz somewhere else) and exist as a people....Now here comes 1992 and for some strange reason being Indian became POPULAR....So now from what I see people from other parts of the country see groups in other parts as "bandwagon" jumpers or "Johnny come latelys..." Well in fact their not.....Sure there is some strange stuff that goes on out there, but keep in mind its not all the horse of the same color....
I agree with ya there. If Peter Marksman and his generous wife Hannah hadn't given refuge to some Pot folks hiding out in the upper Penninsula from the "blue coat roundup", my ancestors woulda had to take the "Trail of Death" out to Kansas. My thanks was for the correction that the Cherokee Band of Virginia was not a federally recognized group as the website I had visited reports - this distinction being important to some quantity of people.

Having said that, I quite agree with your later post that if you get to know people, it is readily apparent who they are - and who they are often (especially in the East) has very little to do with government issued pieces of paper or even skin tone!
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Old 12-13-2006, 04:25 PM   #17
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I had'nt seen this posted anywhere yet but this thread is perfect for it. As you were talking about disintigration of culture, news like this kinda brightens the day. Blair Rudes also worked with the Tuscaroras to get a written language and a dictionary made to help revitalize the language before it's totally gone. So reading what he's done for the Mattaponi might bring a tear of joy to your eye.
************************************************** ******************
This Message Is Reprinted Under The FAIR USE
Doctrine Of International Copyright Law:
_http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.html_
(http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.html)
************************************************** ******************
FROM:
_http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/11/AR2006121101474.html_
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...121101474.html)
Heres a sampling of familiar and unfamiliar words from the language of
Pocahontas. English Virginia Algonquian Phonetic Spelling Listen Hello,
my friend winkpew, nitp win-KAW-poe nee-TAWP _Play_
(http://cdn.washingtonpost.com/podcas...lomyfriend.mp3) I eat numicin nuh-MEE-cheen _Play_
(http://cdn.washingtonpost.com/podcast/audio/IEat.mp3) Potomac Petawamuk,
meaning trading place peh-tah-WAH-muck _Play_
(http://cdn.washingtonpost.com/podcast/audio/Potomac.mp3) Raccoon rehkan aw-REH-kahn _Play_
(http://cdn.washingtonpost.com/podcast/audio/Raccoon.mp3) Tomahawk tumahk tuh-mah-HAWK
_Play_ (http://cdn.washingtonpost.com/podcas...o/Tomahawk.mp3)
SOURCE: Blair Rudes, University of North Carolina at Charlotte

A Dead Indian Language Is Brought Back to Life
Relic of Va. Past Re-Created for Film
By _David A. Fahrenthold_
(http://projects.washingtonpost.com/s....+fahrenthold/)
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, December 12, 2006; Page A01

MATTAPONI INDIAN RESERVATION, Va. -- "Muh-shay-wah-NUH-toe.
Chess-kay-dah-KAY-wak."
In his house overlooking the silvery Mattaponi River, Ken Custalow said the
words over and over until it drove his wife crazy. Until she yelled from the
next room: Have you memorized that thing yet?
(javascript:void(window.open('http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/gallery/2006/12/11/GA2006121101
115_metaRefresher.htm?startat=1','cwgallery_win',' toolbar=no,location=no,direc
tories=no,status=no,menubar=no,scrollbars=no,resiz able=no,copyhistory=no,width
=730,height=670,left=0,top=0,screenX=0,screenY=0') ))
Photos
_Restoring a Tribal Language_
(javascript:void(window.open('http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/gallery/2006/12/11/GA2006121101115_metaRefresher.ht
m?startat=1','cwgallery_win','toolbar=no,location= no,directories=no,status=no,
menubar=no,scrollbars=no,resizable=no,copyhistory= no,width=730,height=670,left
=0,top=0,screenX=0,screenY=0')))
In a story with starring roles for a university linguist, sloppy
17th-century scribes and a perfectionist Hollywood director, the language that scholars
call Virginia Algonquian has come back from the dead.

(http://ad.doubleclick.ne
t/click;h=v8/34b9/3/0/*/o;58794084;0-0;1;4461742;19067-208/40;19119220/19137115/1;;~aopt=2/1/ff00ff/0;~sscs=?http://clk.atdmt.com/
CNT/go/wpnxxcbr1010000222cnt/direct/01/4641160)

Custalow, 70, a member of the Mattaponi tribe, was preparing to give a
blessing at a powwow for _Virginia Indians_
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...rginia+Indians) in _England_
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...United+Kingdom) , part of the
events commemorating the 400th anniversary of the _Jamestown_
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...ject=Jamestown) Colony. He was
nervous. He would be speaking -- and some of the audience would be hearing --
his native language for the first time.
Muh-shay-wah-NUH-toe, he began the salutation. "Great Spirit . . ." Then:
Chess-kay-dah-KAY-wak. "All nations . . ."
The words came from a language that once dominated coastal _Virginia_
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...bject=Virginia) ,
including part of what is now suburban _Washington_
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...ect=Washington) . Pocahontas spoke it.
Tongue-tied colonists littered our maps with mispronunciations of it: _Potomac_
(http://cdn.washingtonpost.com/podcast/audio/Potomac.mp3) , _Anacostia_
(http://cdn.washingtonpost.com/podcas.../Anacostia.mp3) , _Chesapeake_
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...ect=Chesapeake) . Then, sometime
around 1800, it died out.
But now, in a story with starring roles for a university linguist, sloppy
17th-century scribes and a perfectionist _Hollywood_
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...ject=Hollywood) director making a movie
about Jamestown, the language that scholars call _Virginia Algonquian_
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...nia+Algonquian)
has come back from the dead.
The result, for Virginia Indians such as Custalow, has been a stunning
opportunity -- to speak in words that their grandparents never knew.
"It was absolutely awesome," Custalow said. "To think, 'Golly, here was the
language that my people spoke.' "
The language they spoke was just one of several in Virginia before
colonization. Its home territory probably included the lower Eastern Shore and the
coastal plain between Hampton Roads and the _Potomac River_
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...=Potomac+River) , experts say.
The Virginia it described is hard to superimpose on today's. It was a place
where bears and elk roamed, where life alternated between stints at farming
villages and seasonal migrations for hunting and gathering.
Then _Europe_
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...subject=Europe) landed on its doorstep. Language was one of many casualties.
"It is a natural process that happens to small communities," said Helen
Rountree, a professor emerita at _Old Dominion University_
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...ion+University) who has
studied Virginia tribes. "They had to go out and speak English to do all sorts
of ordinary things." Without everyday use, Virginia Algonquian withered.

The same thing happened across the continent. Of perhaps 400 Indian languages
spoken in _North America_
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...=North+America) in 1500, about 45 are in common use today,
one expert estimated.
The Virginia language left behind those mangled place names (somehow "
_Nukotatunuk_ (http://cdn.washingtonpost.com/podcas.../Anacostia.mp3) ," the
tribe living in the modern-day District, became "Anacostia"), as well as a few
words absorbed into English, like " _raccoon_
(http://cdn.washingtonpost.com/podcast/audio/Raccoon.mp3) ," "pecan," and " _tomahawk_
(http://cdn.washingtonpost.com/podcas...o/Tomahawk.mp3) ."
A few traces survived among Virginia Indians: Chief Anne Richardson of the
Rappahannock tribe said her family didn't use the word "bread."
"My grandparents and my parents would say, 'I'm making up apone,' " she
said. The old Algonquian word had been "apon." Corn pone shares the same
linguistic link.
For the first half of the 20th century, the loss of their language was a
minor concern for Virginia Indians. They were often lumped into the "colored"
side of a segregated society, barred from jobs and schools, and many moved
away.
By the 1970s, though, discrimination had eased, and interest grew in the old
Algonquian language.
Researching it was not an easy task. The best source was a list of Indian
words and their meanings compiled by a Jamestown colonist in the 1600s. But it
had been recopied by some of the 17th century's most incompetent scribes.
Their N's looked like A's, which looked like U's, and they had a serious problem
with spelling. The Algonquian word for "ants" had been mislabeled as "aunts,"
and the word for "herring" had become "hearing."
Then Hollywood entered the picture. In 2003, director _Terrence Malick_
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...errence+Malick)
was preparing to film a movie about Jamestown, "The New World," which ran in
theaters in late 2005 and early this year. _Blair Rudes_
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...ct=Blair+Rudes) , a linguist at
the _University of North Carolina at Charlotte_
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...a+at+Charlotte)
, was hired to translate dialogue for Pocahontas's people.
Rudes started with the Colonial-era word lists and scholarly work and filled
in the linguistic blanks using better-known Algonquian languages from all
over the Eastern Seaboard. His task was a bit like trying to rebuild modern
Spanish using only a few pages from a tourist phrasebook, plus Italian. One scene
with three pages of dialogue took him a month.
But the director loved it. He wanted 50 scenes. Rudes translated in his hotel
room for two weeks solid. At the end, people were speaking entire sentences
in Virginia Algonquian -- or at least a linguist's best guess at it-- for the
first time in 200 years.
"In order to do it, you don't think about that," Rudes said. "Then, when it's
all over, you look back and say, 'Wow, I just re-created a language.' "
Among other things, his work has helped to dispel one of the area's most
widely held beliefs: that "Chesapeake" means something like "Great Shellfish
Bay." It doesn't, Rudes said. The name might actually mean something like "Great
Water," or it might have been just a village at the bay's mouth.

Linguists are interested in the language's tendency, much like modern German,
to mash together so many prefixes and suffixes that an entire phrase or
sentence is summed up in a single word. " _Rappahannock_
(http://cdn.washingtonpost.com/podcas...ppahannock.mp3) ," for instance, contains elements that
mean "back," "current of water" and "place." "Place where the water comes
back" -- it means a river moved by the tides.
"What are the possibilities for how humans can organize their thoughts and
present them?" said Ives Goddard, an Indian language expert at the _Smithsonian
Institution_
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...an+Institution) . "Here's another blueprint, another bag of
tricks."
For the descendants of Algonquian speakers, who account for seven of
Virginia's eight state-recognized Indian tribes, the interest is more than academic.
At Rudes's request, the movie studio made his work from the movie available
to them.
" _Win-KAW-poe nee-TAWP_
(http://cdn.washingtonpost.com/podcas...lomyfriend.mp3) ," Chief Robert "Two Eagles" Green of the Patawomeck tribe -- a
group in _Stafford County_
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...tafford+County) without state recognition-- can now say in his
talks to school groups. Hello, my friend."It kind of awakens them a little
bit to the fact that everybody in _America_
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...=United+States) didn't always speak English,"
he said.
Some tribes have started teaching children pieces of the language; others say
they want adult classes.
"I would like to see it as a restored language . . . to be spoken in its
fullness," said _Richardson_
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...ect=Richardson) , the chief of the Rappahannock tribe. "I don't want
it partially restored. I want it fully restored."
A glimpse of the future might have come this summer in Great Britain, at a
powwow the tribes held in the town where Pocahontas is buried. This was what
Custalow had been preparing for: In the end, he didn't trust himself to
memorize the strange syllables, so he brought along a cheat sheet.
Custalow said he did it flawlessly, ending the prayer with the Algonquian
word "NAH-daych." The crowd responded with the same word in English: Amen.
Visitors to_http:/hhttp://www.wahttp:_
(http://www.washingtonpost.com/metro) can click on some of the words in this story and hear Prof. Blair
Rudes pronounce the modern word, then its Virginia Algonquian equivalent.
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Old 12-13-2006, 09:10 PM   #18
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An issue with folks who view Non-Treaty Skins as null and void? Long before there was a United States of America and the Constitution and so on....Indigenous peoples exsisted with our very own particulars and so on.....Some Tribes had interactions with Europeans long before there was a U.S. Fed Government.....This wasn't 100 or so years ago...It was 400 or so years ago....Virginia is situated on what is now known as the Eastern U.S. The history is just different...Why can't people realize that and consider it? So while the wars and God knows what was taking place...mind you long before the Federal Gov of the US came to be...Indians, Tribes...had working relationships with the English, the Dutch, the French, and So on....Now when you compare that to Tribes West of the Missippi, sure there was interaction, but several Tribes out here struck up "agreements" with the US Government a number of years later....What about the Tribes who were back East? Gee I wonder? Some would say they were eradicated, or vanished or so on....No! they endured in a number of possible ways to keep their ancestral homelands (not haul azz somewhere else) and exist as a people....Now here comes 1992 and for some strange reason being Indian became POPULAR....So now from what I see people from other parts of the country see groups in other parts as "bandwagon" jumpers or "Johnny come latelys..." Well in fact their not.....Sure there is some strange stuff that goes on out there, but keep in mind its not all the horse of the same color....
BRAVO!!!! this is a very intelligent and well thought out post....'Yot these are great words.....have a great holiday season best to you and yours...
JG
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Old 12-14-2006, 01:46 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe G
BRAVO!!!! this is a very intelligent and well thought out post....'Yot these are great words.....have a great holiday season best to you and yours...
JG
Same 2 U Joe....
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