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Old 01-06-2012, 06:55 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by Keely View Post
Done I took it private
Thank you very much Keely, appreciate it.

I've often thought that when a car manufacturer names a car after a Tribe or Place that they really are on a marketing scale trying to maximize the romance of the name with the vehicle.

(GM named a vehicle, Denali and the Yukon so when I tell folks where I grew up, they reply.. oh like the truck? Someone actually thought I meant I grew up in the back of a Yukon truck *sigh*)

Do you think it's time we all started being a little more firm in folks using tribal names regardless of the reason why - if they are using it for marketing purposes or to aligned themselves with the name to appear a bit more legitimate or entitled? I get annoyed when I google something Cherokee and a freaking SUV pops up as the first hit on the search.

I have seriously had a conversation with a non-native person who insisted that all of us natives get royalties whenever a car with a tribal name is sold or other items of merchandise. I wish...LOL

One thing I noticed when reading the IACA, is that it doesn't protect artists when their work is re-sold. In some jurisdiction - Cali for one, protects artists from unfair purchasing with respect to their art by affording them the right to collect royalties of their work when resold.

I've always seen the IACA as more of a merchandising and false advertising piece of legislation rather than a beefed up piece of legislation to protect Natives and their work. It's pretty clear that if a federally recognized tribe wishes to sanction a non-enrolled person to use the tribal affiliation - they can. I've also wondered why tribal councils haven't capitalized on this and started a fee per sanction to non-enrolled artists? Crumbs, I pay a huge amount in membership fees to professional bodies, why not add a payment for the use of being able to use a tribal affiliation or be able to say, Native descendant of X tribe if it meant that much.

Anyway, just a few things to move this thread along... more pie anyone?
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Old 01-06-2012, 06:57 PM   #82
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Screw pie.

"Scotch." :)
Hubby just invited you over.... lol... he said he's got some 30 year old Oban on for tonight. *psst.. we can get Cubans here too...*
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Old 01-06-2012, 07:45 PM   #83
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Screw pie.

"Scotch." :)



Might as well break out the g---o----o---d stuff!
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Old 01-06-2012, 08:02 PM   #84
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now if you pulled out a bottle of old Lindsey i might have got nervous ...now here a another thought,,, just a sec i need to set up the will for the grandkids
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Old 01-06-2012, 08:16 PM   #85
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Old 01-06-2012, 08:19 PM   #86
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if a person is a descendent of Scotch and lets says Choctaw with a another line being french, Jewish and lets say Mohawk and also black but the person born with all these blood appears white in looks what is that person although the person has different attributes from each of the blood lines some recessive some more dominate but there all the same who is this person
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Old 01-06-2012, 08:24 PM   #87
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im not drinking
thanks tho
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Old 01-06-2012, 08:38 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaahl View Post
Thank you very much Keely, appreciate it.

I've often thought that when a car manufacturer names a car after a Tribe or Place that they really are on a marketing scale trying to maximize the romance of the name with the vehicle.

(GM named a vehicle, Denali and the Yukon so when I tell folks where I grew up, they reply.. oh like the truck? Someone actually thought I meant I grew up in the back of a Yukon truck *sigh*)

Do you think it's time we all started being a little more firm in folks using tribal names regardless of the reason why - if they are using it for marketing purposes or to aligned themselves with the name to appear a bit more legitimate or entitled? I get annoyed when I google something Cherokee and a freaking SUV pops up as the first hit on the search.

I have seriously had a conversation with a non-native person who insisted that all of us natives get royalties whenever a car with a tribal name is sold or other items of merchandise. I wish...LOL

One thing I noticed when reading the IACA, is that it doesn't protect artists when their work is re-sold. In some jurisdiction - Cali for one, protects artists from unfair purchasing with respect to their art by affording them the right to collect royalties of their work when resold.

I've always seen the IACA as more of a merchandising and false advertising piece of legislation rather than a beefed up piece of legislation to protect Natives and their work. It's pretty clear that if a federally recognized tribe wishes to sanction a non-enrolled person to use the tribal affiliation - they can. I've also wondered why tribal councils haven't capitalized on this and started a fee per sanction to non-enrolled artists? Crumbs, I pay a huge amount in membership fees to professional bodies, why not add a payment for the use of being able to use a tribal affiliation or be able to say, Native descendant of X tribe if it meant that much.

Anyway, just a few things to move this thread along... more pie anyone?
that's a very good point yaahl in reference to the car makers or business who use the names that are from the different nations
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Old 01-06-2012, 08:54 PM   #89
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Old 01-06-2012, 09:05 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaahl View Post
Thank you very much Keely, appreciate it.

I've often thought that when a car manufacturer names a car after a Tribe or Place that they really are on a marketing scale trying to maximize the romance of the name with the vehicle.

(GM named a vehicle, Denali and the Yukon so when I tell folks where I grew up, they reply.. oh like the truck? Someone actually thought I meant I grew up in the back of a Yukon truck *sigh*)

Do you think it's time we all started being a little more firm in folks using tribal names regardless of the reason why - if they are using it for marketing purposes or to aligned themselves with the name to appear a bit more legitimate or entitled? I get annoyed when I google something Cherokee and a freaking SUV pops up as the first hit on the search.

I have seriously had a conversation with a non-native person who insisted that all of us natives get royalties whenever a car with a tribal name is sold or other items of merchandise. I wish...LOL

One thing I noticed when reading the IACA, is that it doesn't protect artists when their work is re-sold. In some jurisdiction - Cali for one, protects artists from unfair purchasing with respect to their art by affording them the right to collect royalties of their work when resold.

I've always seen the IACA as more of a merchandising and false advertising piece of legislation rather than a beefed up piece of legislation to protect Natives and their work. It's pretty clear that if a federally recognized tribe wishes to sanction a non-enrolled person to use the tribal affiliation - they can. I've also wondered why tribal councils haven't capitalized on this and started a fee per sanction to non-enrolled artists? Crumbs, I pay a huge amount in membership fees to professional bodies, why not add a payment for the use of being able to use a tribal affiliation or be able to say, Native descendant of X tribe if it meant that much.

Anyway, just a few things to move this thread along... more pie anyone?
The IACA is not just to protect the artists, but it is also to protect the consumer. Getting the consumer educated is a big part of being able to enforce the law.

Art on the secondary market, I am not sure if I am reading the question correctly or know how you mean for it to be, but if someone purchases my work and then re-sells in the secondary market, I have no control, however, it is the responsiblity of the secondary seller to provide the proof I am enrolled in a recognized tribe, if a person purchases my work, and there is no proof of enrollment with it, they are welcomed to contact me and I am always happy to help them out.

The IACA does not cover a person who claims to be of "Native descent" that person must be enrolled with a recognized tribe, the only way a person can currently avoid the enrollment issue is to be able to obtain a legal statement from a recognized tribe, which states the person is not enrolled but they are a decendant, of which the tribe does recognize them as a Indian artist from their tribe. There are people who cannot enroll for many reasons, but they are Indian, and it is up to the tribe to give them the artist recognition.

Revisions of the law are being worked on.

It is a tough road to enforce, years ago at a art festival, a woman from Missouri who had a printed out paper on her table that read "Indian beadworker artist, Mrs. Jane Doe is from the Cherokee Tribe of Missouri, she does her beadwork in the old traditional ways...." I flat told her she was full of crap, to which I got the story of how her ancestors hid from the removal.. I also complained to the orginizers of the art festival, they thought I was telling a story, they made the choice not to believe me, and stated that bead artist would be returning the following year... I got pamplets from the IACA and took them to the group who does the art festival, and told them that should they ever have a Indian artist again, make sure they are enrolled in a recognized tribe, if they have any questions they can contact me.... The woman from Missouri has NOT been invited back and the Indian artists who have since come, are in compliance with the law.
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Old 01-06-2012, 09:21 PM   #91
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The IACA is not just to protect the artists, but it is also to protect the consumer. Getting the consumer educated is a big part of being able to enforce the law.
If the consumer is "educated," you don't NEED the law.

The law only exists for those Natives who desire to metaphorically kneel on blankets by the roadside and sell Chiclets without actual competition.
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Old 01-06-2012, 10:02 PM   #92
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Old 01-07-2012, 12:54 AM   #93
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Quote:
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I've always seen the IACA as more of a merchandising and false advertising piece of legislation rather than a beefed up piece of legislation to protect Natives and their work.

Yeap. This is a multimillion dollar business. And that is just the investor and gallery owner's take, LOL. The artists are the small fish in the pond.

The value of so much of the work relies of the provenance of the work. Until the IACA, the burden of determination of "Indian authenticity" was on the gallery owner. So the owners had to either know the artist and community or make judgements on phenotype. I could see this being a huge liability for the gallery owner. One peeved buyer with a good attorney and OUCH! Under the IACA, they have a single standard to use.

This law does far more to protect the buyer. Sorry Zeke, the reality is for many buyers the value of the work is in the pedigree of the artist, particularly in the antiquities side. Quality is rarely the first thing a buyer notices; art sales are a first date not a test drive.

You'd get better artist protection with education and use of intellectual property law.


Quote:
Originally Posted by yaahl View Post
One thing I noticed when reading the IACA, is that it doesn't protect artists when their work is re-sold. In some jurisdiction - Cali for one, protects artists from unfair purchasing with respect to their art by affording them the right to collect royalties of their work when resold.
That is an extremely rare protection for visual artists, at least in the states.
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Old 01-07-2012, 01:21 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
If the consumer is "educated," you don't NEED the law.

The law only exists for those Natives who desire to metaphorically kneel on blankets by the roadside and sell Chiclets without actual competition.
If we didnt need the law, we wouldnt have it, the fact of the matter is, non Indians have been making and selling stuff as Indian made for years. Silver and turquoise artists have had problems with over seas companies stealing designs and making knock offs, sending them all over to be sold as Indian jewlery. Legislation is being done to stop these imports, sad that the junk knock off jewelry has flooded the US for decades, maybe a movement will begin of melting down the junk.
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Old 01-07-2012, 01:26 AM   #95
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Yeap. This is a multimillion dollar business. And that is just the investor and gallery owner's take, LOL. The artists are the small fish in the pond.

The value of so much of the work relies of the provenance of the work. Until the IACA, the burden of determination of "Indian authenticity" was on the gallery owner. So the owners had to either know the artist and community or make judgements on phenotype. I could see this being a huge liability for the gallery owner. One peeved buyer with a good attorney and OUCH! Under the IACA, they have a single standard to use.

This law does far more to protect the buyer. Sorry Zeke, the reality is for many buyers the value of the work is in the pedigree of the artist, particularly in the antiquities side. Quality is rarely the first thing a buyer notices; art sales are a first date not a test drive.

You'd get better artist protection with education and use of intellectual property law.




That is an extremely rare protection for visual artists, at least in the states.
Provenance of work only comes in when it is a antique, if work is antique then the IACA does not come into the selling of a work. Proving something is antique is not as hard as it seems.
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Old 01-07-2012, 01:43 AM   #96
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The IACA is not just to protect the artists, but it is also to protect the consumer. Getting the consumer educated is a big part of being able to enforce the law.

Art on the secondary market, I am not sure if I am reading the question correctly or know how you mean for it to be, but if someone purchases my work and then re-sells in the secondary market, I have no control, however, it is the responsiblity of the secondary seller to provide the proof I am enrolled in a recognized tribe, if a person purchases my work, and there is no proof of enrollment with it, they are welcomed to contact me and I am always happy to help them out.

The IACA does not cover a person who claims to be of "Native descent" that person must be enrolled with a recognized tribe, the only way a person can currently avoid the enrollment issue is to be able to obtain a legal statement from a recognized tribe, which states the person is not enrolled but they are a decendant, of which the tribe does recognize them as a Indian artist from their tribe. There are people who cannot enroll for many reasons, but they are Indian, and it is up to the tribe to give them the artist recognition.

Revisions of the law are being worked on.

It is a tough road to enforce, years ago at a art festival, a woman from Missouri who had a printed out paper on her table that read "Indian beadworker artist, Mrs. Jane Doe is from the Cherokee Tribe of Missouri, she does her beadwork in the old traditional ways...." I flat told her she was full of crap, to which I got the story of how her ancestors hid from the removal.. I also complained to the orginizers of the art festival, they thought I was telling a story, they made the choice not to believe me, and stated that bead artist would be returning the following year... I got pamplets from the IACA and took them to the group who does the art festival, and told them that should they ever have a Indian artist again, make sure they are enrolled in a recognized tribe, if they have any questions they can contact me.... The woman from Missouri has NOT been invited back and the Indian artists who have since come, are in compliance with the law.
I guess what I'm seeing in the IACA is a lack of protection for the actual artist as opposed to the consumer protection it offers.

I've seen both sides of the debate where one faction claims it's to stop non-natives from making a buck on the back of native artisans and crafters. I agree with the notion that something is necessary to stop the mass production of "Indian" trinkets that are made in China and I'd love to see those little brown dolls vanish at the airport gift shops as much as anyone. The other faction sets out that the act is all about protecting them from being ripped off by non-natives by those nons getting a piece of the market pie when they think it all belongs to them.

When you really look at the IACA, it's teeth are more towards the consumer protection rather than the artist and personally, I think that it's another piece of legislation that serves no one but the non-native tourist/consumer.

I'm going to hazard a guess and assume most folks here have heard of if not seen the works of Haida artist, Bill Reid. Think about this, way back in our dark days of being in the total control of Indian Affairs, band membership was defined by a plethora of categories set out by Indian Affairs. One category was the enfranchisement of Indian women who married a non-status Indian man. Essentially, it made instant white woman of Indian women based on who they married.

Back when Bill Reid was born, according to Indian Affairs, his mother, Haida, married a non-status Scottish man and therefore would be considered a non Indian by Indian Affairs. Now the Haida people would have always considered Bill to be Haida because everything comes through the mother but his parents didn't tell him anything about his Haida roots until he was a teen. During Bill's more prolific time period as a Haida artist he was according to Indian Affairs, legally not an Indian. He wouldn't have his legal status restored until 1985 when Bill C31 was enacted. International collectors might have found this troubling as the Act is retroactive to the 1930s.

Can you imagine what the art world would have lost if Bill had been living in the US (as he could have - his father was an American citizen)? None of his work would ever have been considered native, let alone Haida. That's one of the reasons why I can't buy into the IACA completely. The other reason is that on the surface it looks like it protects Native artisans but if falls short of offering anything more than authenticating their work as Native.

I'm an advocate that if you're going to legislate something, then give the legislation teeth beyond the superficial. I'm a firm believer that as the copyright holder and Intellectual Property rights, visual artists really need to have those rights better protected. I also believe that there are still art dealers that are unscrupulous in the manner in which they procure their merchandise. Art dealers flocked to Cape Dorset and bought up soapstone carvings by the crate for a trivial amount and turned around and sold them for thousands if not hundreds of thousands of dollars to collectors. The Inuit never got a dime past what they were offered by the dealers. But they got smart and formed an Artist co-op in their communities to prevent members from being taken advantage by dealers.

IP rights for visual work has often been forgotten in the royalties debate. Musicians, performers, writers all get royalties when their works are sold and re-sold but visual artists (except in some jurisdictions like Cali) get nada. I wish the IACA would have included that provision for resale royalties. Why would those who see the act as a means to protect income, not seek future protection for additional income from re-sales. Provenance is included through the IACA, why not royalties?

Enforcement is something every legislative act has problems with. I guess the question is, why are they having problems enforcing it? If offenders are being identified, then what is causing the lack of prosecution? Is it that these offenders are being forewarned by being challenged in public and heading underground and the evidence disappears or is it that folks that know when there is an offender not calling the 1-800-snitch line to report them?

Think of it another way, if anyone knew that there was a welfare fraud living near them would they walk up to their door and tell them to stop? Or would they call their suspicions in to the appropriate authorities? Which is more likely to actually stop the offender from repeated behaviour?

anyway... my two elk teeth
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Old 01-07-2012, 02:00 AM   #97
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Provenance of work only comes in when it is a antique, if work is antique then the IACA does not come into the selling of a work. Proving something is antique is not as hard as it seems.
Provenance is not exclusive to antiques. Artists produce certificates of provenance when they sell their work. It is a record of who has had ownership of the piece and lends itself to the originality of the work. Artists who use students or apprentice in their studio set out in their certs of Provenance that they either worked on the piece themselves or they list off who also worked on it. Along with certs of Provenance, are gallery labels and show documentation.

Provenience is the precise location where an artifact or archaeological sample was recovered archaeologically.

When I sell a painting, I file a copyright registration, complete a cert of provenance, a gallery history, photographs of the work, any insurance information and a complete list of where the piece has been shown. I also make sure the buyer is aware of licensing restrictions, reproduction restrictions and conservation requirements. My paintings are not antiques ..well not yet anyway...lol
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Old 01-07-2012, 02:30 AM   #98
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Yeap. This is a multimillion dollar business. And that is just the investor and gallery owner's take, LOL. The artists are the small fish in the pond.

The value of so much of the work relies of the provenance of the work. Until the IACA, the burden of determination of "Indian authenticity" was on the gallery owner. So the owners had to either know the artist and community or make judgements on phenotype. I could see this being a huge liability for the gallery owner. One peeved buyer with a good attorney and OUCH! Under the IACA, they have a single standard to use.

This law does far more to protect the buyer. Sorry Zeke, the reality is for many buyers the value of the work is in the pedigree of the artist, particularly in the antiquities side. Quality is rarely the first thing a buyer notices; art sales are a first date not a test drive.

You'd get better artist protection with education and use of intellectual property law.




That is an extremely rare protection for visual artists, at least in the states.
But you could also not say that the pedigree of the artist also builds overtime? Just because an artist is say, Arapaho does not mean that they instantly are a sought after artist just because of a tribal affiliation? Patrons that tend to buy according to the artist's pedigree usually have had a previous experience with the artist's work. Once they find a particular artist they like/enjoy their work, it does become important to them that they have bragging rights over the artist's bio. That's one of the reasons they buy that kind of art.

Norval Morrisseau's work is a complete mess because of forgeries and work completed by his students and signed by him. Patrons, galleries, museums and owners of his works are very worried about their investments and are fearful that they piece they own may well be determined to be a fake. Now not quite an anecdote on non-enrolled artists doing native work, but it does demonstrate that even if one has their Indian status confirmed as required by the IACA, it's not going to stop exploitation on another level.
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Old 01-07-2012, 03:01 AM   #99
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I think this discussion warrants its own thread, so hang tough for a few minutes while we move it over. Thanks
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Screw pie.

"Scotch." :)
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Hubby just invited you over.... lol... he said he's got some 30 year old Oban on for tonight. *psst.. we can get Cubans here too...*
Oh no and there she goes.HAHAHAHA

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Scotch, whiskey, bourbon it's all nasty, I'll take rum or SoCo any day over that stuff.
I totally agree with you here.

You guys know the song "Tequila makes her clothes fall off". Oh well let me tell you it's not just my clothes that fall off.

I don't drink 'cause I'm too much of a light weight drinker. I've knocked down bathroom partitions just trying to hold myself up. And that was after only two or three drinks. And I get the giggles so bad that I can't stop, that's after one drink. Last new years I had my first drink in almost 10 years and it was at my mom's house. I only had one and the room started spinning on me and my nieces were sitting there laughing at me. Yep, no alcohol for me, it's safer for everyone involved---especially me.
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