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Old 09-11-2011, 04:28 AM   #121
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I said:
Quote:
"I've a few issues with your comments that begin on the premise that culture is not something you are born with. I would argue that your premise stems from a person who wants to belong but can't. It is all too easy to dismiss what a dominant culture can not/will not accept and your very assertion that blood is not necessary negates what many First Nations have been trying to tell non-natives for years":.

Jack said:
Quote:
History is full of people who weren't born into a culture, but adopted it and rose to positions (within their adopted culture) of prominence - even leadership.
I find that rationale to be used the most often by those who wish to justify their lack of manners with respect to cultural assimilation. In other words, if they can point to someone else doing it, it gives them the go ahead to do the same. Still doesn’t make it right. The irony should not be overlooked that your own POTUS has to be person BORN in the country to hold that office. I have yet to see a waanabe hold the positon of Chief of the Assembly of First Nations. Every type of membership comes with its own set of rules on who can play. Why should First Nations be any different and why can't non-natives respect that?

I said:
Quote:
"I would offer the notion that because the dominant culture has been and is still under the impression and belief that First Nation culture is up for grabs because our forced assimilation has left it available. Our culture, as we see it, is not a case of "finders keepers" as convenient laws of bailment have provided for those who "discover" us again and again. The flaw in your premise is that you have assumed the position that it is morally and ethically correct to wade into our culture and use it as it were a lost item that you found."

Jack said:
Quote:
"Culture" has always been up for "grabs" throughout recorded history, be it Egyptian, Chinese, Greek, Roman or whatnot...be it in the form of dress, Shakespeare writing a play, cuisine, warefare, etc.
Hmm… let’s look at this statement… with the assimilation processes that have occurred in both the US and Canada (I’m not going to include SA for the moment) First Nations were and still are believed to be a dying race and culture. Every year I get some report about birth rates, loss of language and numbers of off reserve going up to convince us Indian folks to give up trying to be Indian. Every year we produce more Indian babies and more of our kids are becoming fluent in their language… but… new agers, tree huggers and the touchy feelies who believe they are the ones sent to save us from extinction ignore those stats and run amok in get ups/ceremonies/villages/*******izing our languages that they think are helping preserve us for us.

It’s funny and not a haha kind of funny that if one can find that justification in another form, it makes it ok to do it to Indian folks. If I hear one more person exclaim how they just loved Anne Cameron’s Haida and West coast stories and how she must make all of us west coasters proud to be one of us, I shall simply puke in the speaker’s mouth. Anne Cameron “borrowed” our stories, changed them to suit herself and published them. If she had done that to say… Stephen King or Isaac Asimov’s work, they’d still be in court over the IP issues but because folks think that Indians are a dying race, she’s held up as some sort of hero for saving us and our stories. Even though most of the assimilation practices have gone quiet, the perception that it was very successful still permeates in our communities and in the larger dominant society.

Jack said:
Quote:
Morals and ethics? Someone may want to put on a fringed buckskin dress simply because they like it (or a cheongsam dress, or a sari, or a kilt....).
Yes, morals and ethics… it is a concept I find most of the dominant culture as having the most difficulty with understanding. Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should.


I said:
Quote:
"In my own culture, we believe that every person is a re-incarnation of a former relative."

jack said:
Quote:
You may speak for yousef, or even a majority of Indians, but you do not speak for all Indians.

Many cultures believe in reincarnation.
I guess you skimmed over the wording… In my own culture… However, I find the comment of “you don’t speak for all Indians” one of thee most oppressive statements and biggest smoke screens used in counter arguments. Well of course I don’t speak for all Indians, that is just plain silly to even suggest it. It is akin to the “your momma” come backs.



I said:
Quote:
"I have never seen a child born who is the re-incarnation of a wannabe"

Jack said:
Quote:
I have never seen a child born who is the re-incarnation of anything other than his parents DNA.
Do you see how easy it is for the dominant culture to dismiss what a particular tribe/people believe in? In my culture… (There’s that big opener Jack, pay attention) a child is named after the relative that they have re-incarnated. Our names for the lack of a better word get recycled with each birth and death. If your people believe in something else on how a child comes to be, then that’s what makes us (as in my people) different from yours. Mocking or just scratching out a glib comment to sound clever just proves my point that you just can’t give the keys to the culture to anyone.

I said:
Quote:
"Your premise that we are not born with our culture is erroneous as you have not considered that what the dominant society considers as a pan-Indianess of culture is in reality not even close to the level we understand it to be."

Jack said:
Quote:
"Pan-Indianess of culture" is something practiced by Indians, ie : pow-wows. Indians dancing and dressing in regalia that has nothing to do with their own culture.
And why do you think that happens Jack? What I am referring to is that the dominant society has really only seen Indians as how the government, Hollywood and historians want them to see us. Seriously, ever asked a school kid from middle suburbia USA or Canada a few questions on their knowledge of First Nations? He/she will lump us all together and either say we are bloodthirsty or (if they have tree huggers for parents) say we have a special connection with the earth. It is that kind of view that leaves our communities and cultures wide open for a) interpretation b) exploitation and c) the crap that gets made up along the way by the Indian in their heart that even we start believing it.

I said:
Quote:
" Law after law was enacted by both the American and Canadian governments that outlawed our simply day-to-day events"

Jack said:
Quote:
For one, the Pawnee "tradition/culture" of the Morning Star ritual : ie : child abduction and sacrifice in order to appease the crop "gods".
Wow, didn’t realize that even Indians are accused of child sacrifice and ritual killings…thought that was reserved for the Satanists et al. You know in all my years as a lawyer, I have never once every seen a case investigated where there has been the ritual sacrifice of kids that resulted in criminal actions of any kind… they usually turned out to be hoaxes, boogeymen hunts and impressionable kids.… However, I have often said that some of our behaviours needed to be changed as some things were simply outdated so if that one is true, then it needed to go ( can you provide a source please). What I am referring to and you should know better are laws that outlawed dancing, potlatches, summer fishing camps, hunting camps and yes, even speaking our languages.

I said:
Quote:
"If you really want to believe that participating in a culture makes you part of it"

Jack said:
Quote:
Go no further than Canada.
Now I simply must know the end to this anecdote… please continue.


I said;
Quote:
"Come with me when we meet to discuss why out of 15,000 plus federal inmates, 60% of them are Indian when we only make up 5% of the whole Canadian population"
Jack said:
Quote:
I assume they are in jail because they committed a crime. Or should Indians be exempt from jail? Ohhh, right, poor me, loss of culture....I can't help but........so on and so forth.
Jack, Jack, Jack…sigh… You are responding as if you were a good old boy… if you truly understood the issues of incarceration and the disproportionate percentage of First Nation offenders you would have spent less time typing your redneck response and more time questioning those figures… Now as a Native lawyer, I’ve spent more of my free time in Royal Commissions, judicial inquiries, parole hearings, sentencing hearings, committees to amend the Criminal Code and Youth Justice Act. I’ve sat in meetings over PCB contaminants on reserves, TB and STD prevalence in our youth, residential school issues, fishing and hunting right cases, wrongly convicted men and women, child welfare and negotiations for land claims and not once in any of that did I ever see one of those wannabes and cultural thieves sitting beside me helping me and my colleagues carry the load. Yet, I see them at every event where they get to dress up like an Indian and introduce themselves with a cool Indian name like “Whiteman Running the Indians Out.”

Seriously, I was at a Native film festival a few years ago and the film I made with a Mohawk filmmaker was being screened. Both he and I arrived in our jeans and t-shirts and there was this chick there we all knew as a wannabe. She was dressed in her mocs, headband and some shirt that was made out of faux leather. Guess who the press took pictures of? Not me and the other film maker… but her. We got told we didn’t look Indian enough in our jeans. Some folks viewing the film thought she was the film maker as well… her name was something along the lines of Something Big something Eagle something woman. Qu’elle surprise there…

I said:
Quote:
"I seem to never see the non-native folks at those meetings (well except on the other side of the table)... what gives with that? Is it because you can't wear the cool buckskin or feathers or is it because you consider it none of your business and not your politics?"

Jack said:
Quote:
And just how many Indians (who wear the cool buckskins or feathers) do you see at your meetings?
Well counting myself, I tend to wear some cool clothing made by Dorothy Grant and Stephany Pryce but most of the other folks wear cool t-shirts or suits… The people I am referring to are the ones like Princess Big Bird Butt who stump up to an event in the latest and greatest feather and hide ensemble announcing to all that they are a medicine/shaman/healer and can feel the love in the room/arena/arbour but revert back to the “Let My People Go” rabble rouser on Monday who would faint if they ever had to open their mouth in an actual parole hearing or AFN meeting. Never see those people, I figure it’s because they can’t dress up at the kind of meetings I attend.

Last edited by yaahl; 09-11-2011 at 04:33 AM..
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Old 09-11-2011, 09:25 AM   #122
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Old 09-11-2011, 09:51 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaahl View Post
I said:


Jack said:

I find that rationale to be used the most often by those who wish to justify their lack of manners with respect to cultural assimilation. In other words, if they can point to someone else doing it, it gives them the go ahead to do the same. Still doesn’t make it right. The irony should not be overlooked that your own POTUS has to be person BORN in the country to hold that office. I have yet to see a waanabe hold the positon of Chief of the Assembly of First Nations. Every type of membership comes with its own set of rules on who can play. Why should First Nations be any different and why can't non-natives respect that?

I said:


Jack said:

Hmm… let’s look at this statement… with the assimilation processes that have occurred in both the US and Canada (I’m not going to include SA for the moment) First Nations were and still are believed to be a dying race and culture. Every year I get some report about birth rates, loss of language and numbers of off reserve going up to convince us Indian folks to give up trying to be Indian. Every year we produce more Indian babies and more of our kids are becoming fluent in their language… but… new agers, tree huggers and the touchy feelies who believe they are the ones sent to save us from extinction ignore those stats and run amok in get ups/ceremonies/villages/*******izing our languages that they think are helping preserve us for us.

It’s funny and not a haha kind of funny that if one can find that justification in another form, it makes it ok to do it to Indian folks. If I hear one more person exclaim how they just loved Anne Cameron’s Haida and West coast stories and how she must make all of us west coasters proud to be one of us, I shall simply puke in the speaker’s mouth. Anne Cameron “borrowed” our stories, changed them to suit herself and published them. If she had done that to say… Stephen King or Isaac Asimov’s work, they’d still be in court over the IP issues but because folks think that Indians are a dying race, she’s held up as some sort of hero for saving us and our stories. Even though most of the assimilation practices have gone quiet, the perception that it was very successful still permeates in our communities and in the larger dominant society.

Jack said:

Yes, morals and ethics… it is a concept I find most of the dominant culture as having the most difficulty with understanding. Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should.


I said:


jack said:

I guess you skimmed over the wording… In my own culture… However, I find the comment of “you don’t speak for all Indians” one of thee most oppressive statements and biggest smoke screens used in counter arguments. Well of course I don’t speak for all Indians, that is just plain silly to even suggest it. It is akin to the “your momma” come backs.



I said:


Jack said:

Do you see how easy it is for the dominant culture to dismiss what a particular tribe/people believe in? In my culture… (There’s that big opener Jack, pay attention) a child is named after the relative that they have re-incarnated. Our names for the lack of a better word get recycled with each birth and death. If your people believe in something else on how a child comes to be, then that’s what makes us (as in my people) different from yours. Mocking or just scratching out a glib comment to sound clever just proves my point that you just can’t give the keys to the culture to anyone.

I said:


Jack said:

And why do you think that happens Jack? What I am referring to is that the dominant society has really only seen Indians as how the government, Hollywood and historians want them to see us. Seriously, ever asked a school kid from middle suburbia USA or Canada a few questions on their knowledge of First Nations? He/she will lump us all together and either say we are bloodthirsty or (if they have tree huggers for parents) say we have a special connection with the earth. It is that kind of view that leaves our communities and cultures wide open for a) interpretation b) exploitation and c) the crap that gets made up along the way by the Indian in their heart that even we start believing it.

I said:


Jack said:

Wow, didn’t realize that even Indians are accused of child sacrifice and ritual killings…thought that was reserved for the Satanists et al. You know in all my years as a lawyer, I have never once every seen a case investigated where there has been the ritual sacrifice of kids that resulted in criminal actions of any kind… they usually turned out to be hoaxes, boogeymen hunts and impressionable kids.… However, I have often said that some of our behaviours needed to be changed as some things were simply outdated so if that one is true, then it needed to go ( can you provide a source please). What I am referring to and you should know better are laws that outlawed dancing, potlatches, summer fishing camps, hunting camps and yes, even speaking our languages.

I said:


Jack said:

Now I simply must know the end to this anecdote… please continue.


I said;

Jack said:

Jack, Jack, Jack…sigh… You are responding as if you were a good old boy… if you truly understood the issues of incarceration and the disproportionate percentage of First Nation offenders you would have spent less time typing your redneck response and more time questioning those figures… Now as a Native lawyer, I’ve spent more of my free time in Royal Commissions, judicial inquiries, parole hearings, sentencing hearings, committees to amend the Criminal Code and Youth Justice Act. I’ve sat in meetings over PCB contaminants on reserves, TB and STD prevalence in our youth, residential school issues, fishing and hunting right cases, wrongly convicted men and women, child welfare and negotiations for land claims and not once in any of that did I ever see one of those wannabes and cultural thieves sitting beside me helping me and my colleagues carry the load. Yet, I see them at every event where they get to dress up like an Indian and introduce themselves with a cool Indian name like “Whiteman Running the Indians Out.”

Seriously, I was at a Native film festival a few years ago and the film I made with a Mohawk filmmaker was being screened. Both he and I arrived in our jeans and t-shirts and there was this chick there we all knew as a wannabe. She was dressed in her mocs, headband and some shirt that was made out of faux leather. Guess who the press took pictures of? Not me and the other film maker… but her. We got told we didn’t look Indian enough in our jeans. Some folks viewing the film thought she was the film maker as well… her name was something along the lines of Something Big something Eagle something woman. Qu’elle surprise there…

I said:


Jack said:

Well counting myself, I tend to wear some cool clothing made by Dorothy Grant and Stephany Pryce but most of the other folks wear cool t-shirts or suits… The people I am referring to are the ones like Princess Big Bird Butt who stump up to an event in the latest and greatest feather and hide ensemble announcing to all that they are a medicine/shaman/healer and can feel the love in the room/arena/arbour but revert back to the “Let My People Go” rabble rouser on Monday who would faint if they ever had to open their mouth in an actual parole hearing or AFN meeting. Never see those people, I figure it’s because they can’t dress up at the kind of meetings I attend.
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Old 09-11-2011, 12:56 PM   #124
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OK Joe's Dad,

I have looked at your gallery. They are beautiful pictures. However, faces rarely reveal the deepest recesses of one's heart or what values lie within it. Actions sometimes do, but, the fundamentals of what it means to "be Native American", especially "at heart? Those necessities, from what I currently understand, vary from Tribe to Tribe.

My answer, out of respect for what knowledge I currently do not possess, is this.

I can't tell.
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Old 09-11-2011, 01:03 PM   #125
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Old 09-11-2011, 01:40 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by NatalieBlackwood View Post
OK Joe's Dad,

I have looked at your gallery. They are beautiful pictures. However, faces rarely reveal the deepest recesses of one's heart or what values lie within it. Actions sometimes do, but, the fundamentals of what it means to "be Native American", especially "at heart? Those necessities, from what I currently understand, vary from Tribe to Tribe.

My answer, out of respect for what knowledge I currently do not possess, is this.

I can't tell.
The answer is...the people in the pictures are not 'Native at heart', but are the 'heart of the Native People'.

Some in the pics are current powwows.com members who post regularly. Some are teachers, work in tribal affairs or have other ties to their tribe. Many attend ceremonies of their tribes.

You are right. You can't tell.
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Old 09-11-2011, 04:49 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe's Dad View Post
The answer is...the people in the pictures are not 'Native at heart', but are the 'heart of the Native People'.

Some in the pics are current powwows.com members who post regularly. Some are teachers, work in tribal affairs or have other ties to their tribe. Many attend ceremonies of their tribes.

You are right. You can't tell.
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Old 09-11-2011, 05:23 PM   #128
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LOL Thanks, yaahl!
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Old 09-11-2011, 08:10 PM   #129
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Old 09-11-2011, 08:13 PM   #130
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My reasons for coming here are deeply personal. I would be happy to share them with you someday, but in private.


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Old 09-11-2011, 09:28 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaahl View Post
I said:


Jack said:

I find that rationale to be used the most often by those who wish to justify their lack of manners with respect to cultural assimilation. In other words, if they can point to someone else doing it, it gives them the go ahead to do the same. Still doesn’t make it right. The irony should not be overlooked that your own POTUS has to be person BORN in the country to hold that office. I have yet to see a waanabe hold the positon of Chief of the Assembly of First Nations. Every type of membership comes with its own set of rules on who can play. Why should First Nations be any different and why can't non-natives respect that?

I said:


Jack said:

Hmm… let’s look at this statement… with the assimilation processes that have occurred in both the US and Canada (I’m not going to include SA for the moment) First Nations were and still are believed to be a dying race and culture. Every year I get some report about birth rates, loss of language and numbers of off reserve going up to convince us Indian folks to give up trying to be Indian. Every year we produce more Indian babies and more of our kids are becoming fluent in their language… but… new agers, tree huggers and the touchy feelies who believe they are the ones sent to save us from extinction ignore those stats and run amok in get ups/ceremonies/villages/*******izing our languages that they think are helping preserve us for us.

It’s funny and not a haha kind of funny that if one can find that justification in another form, it makes it ok to do it to Indian folks. If I hear one more person exclaim how they just loved Anne Cameron’s Haida and West coast stories and how she must make all of us west coasters proud to be one of us, I shall simply puke in the speaker’s mouth. Anne Cameron “borrowed” our stories, changed them to suit herself and published them. If she had done that to say… Stephen King or Isaac Asimov’s work, they’d still be in court over the IP issues but because folks think that Indians are a dying race, she’s held up as some sort of hero for saving us and our stories. Even though most of the assimilation practices have gone quiet, the perception that it was very successful still permeates in our communities and in the larger dominant society.

Jack said:

Yes, morals and ethics… it is a concept I find most of the dominant culture as having the most difficulty with understanding. Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should.


I said:


jack said:

I guess you skimmed over the wording… In my own culture… However, I find the comment of “you don’t speak for all Indians” one of thee most oppressive statements and biggest smoke screens used in counter arguments. Well of course I don’t speak for all Indians, that is just plain silly to even suggest it. It is akin to the “your momma” come backs.



I said:


Jack said:

Do you see how easy it is for the dominant culture to dismiss what a particular tribe/people believe in? In my culture… (There’s that big opener Jack, pay attention) a child is named after the relative that they have re-incarnated. Our names for the lack of a better word get recycled with each birth and death. If your people believe in something else on how a child comes to be, then that’s what makes us (as in my people) different from yours. Mocking or just scratching out a glib comment to sound clever just proves my point that you just can’t give the keys to the culture to anyone.

I said:


Jack said:

And why do you think that happens Jack? What I am referring to is that the dominant society has really only seen Indians as how the government, Hollywood and historians want them to see us. Seriously, ever asked a school kid from middle suburbia USA or Canada a few questions on their knowledge of First Nations? He/she will lump us all together and either say we are bloodthirsty or (if they have tree huggers for parents) say we have a special connection with the earth. It is that kind of view that leaves our communities and cultures wide open for a) interpretation b) exploitation and c) the crap that gets made up along the way by the Indian in their heart that even we start believing it.

I said:


Jack said:

Wow, didn’t realize that even Indians are accused of child sacrifice and ritual killings…thought that was reserved for the Satanists et al. You know in all my years as a lawyer, I have never once every seen a case investigated where there has been the ritual sacrifice of kids that resulted in criminal actions of any kind… they usually turned out to be hoaxes, boogeymen hunts and impressionable kids.… However, I have often said that some of our behaviours needed to be changed as some things were simply outdated so if that one is true, then it needed to go ( can you provide a source please). What I am referring to and you should know better are laws that outlawed dancing, potlatches, summer fishing camps, hunting camps and yes, even speaking our languages.

I said:


Jack said:

Now I simply must know the end to this anecdote… please continue.


I said;

Jack said:

Jack, Jack, Jack…sigh… You are responding as if you were a good old boy… if you truly understood the issues of incarceration and the disproportionate percentage of First Nation offenders you would have spent less time typing your redneck response and more time questioning those figures… Now as a Native lawyer, I’ve spent more of my free time in Royal Commissions, judicial inquiries, parole hearings, sentencing hearings, committees to amend the Criminal Code and Youth Justice Act. I’ve sat in meetings over PCB contaminants on reserves, TB and STD prevalence in our youth, residential school issues, fishing and hunting right cases, wrongly convicted men and women, child welfare and negotiations for land claims and not once in any of that did I ever see one of those wannabes and cultural thieves sitting beside me helping me and my colleagues carry the load. Yet, I see them at every event where they get to dress up like an Indian and introduce themselves with a cool Indian name like “Whiteman Running the Indians Out.”

Seriously, I was at a Native film festival a few years ago and the film I made with a Mohawk filmmaker was being screened. Both he and I arrived in our jeans and t-shirts and there was this chick there we all knew as a wannabe. She was dressed in her mocs, headband and some shirt that was made out of faux leather. Guess who the press took pictures of? Not me and the other film maker… but her. We got told we didn’t look Indian enough in our jeans. Some folks viewing the film thought she was the film maker as well… her name was something along the lines of Something Big something Eagle something woman. Qu’elle surprise there…

I said:


Jack said:

Well counting myself, I tend to wear some cool clothing made by Dorothy Grant and Stephany Pryce but most of the other folks wear cool t-shirts or suits… The people I am referring to are the ones like Princess Big Bird Butt who stump up to an event in the latest and greatest feather and hide ensemble announcing to all that they are a medicine/shaman/healer and can feel the love in the room/arena/arbour but revert back to the “Let My People Go” rabble rouser on Monday who would faint if they ever had to open their mouth in an actual parole hearing or AFN meeting. Never see those people, I figure it’s because they can’t dress up at the kind of meetings I attend.



"I find that rationale to be used the most often by those who wish to justify their lack of manners with respect to cultural assimilation. In other words, if they can point to someone else doing it, it gives them the go ahead to do the same. Still doesn’t make it right. The irony should not be overlooked that your own POTUS has to be person BORN in the country to hold that office. I have yet to see a waanabe hold the positon of Chief of the Assembly of First Nations. Every type of membership comes with its own set of rules on who can play. Why should First Nations be any different and why can't non-natives respect that?"

You may find it so (doesn't surprise me), however that doesn't negate the fact that it has happened ....as an educated lawyer you should know that.
I never said that a wannabe ever held the position of Chief of the Assembly of First Nations.


."Hmm… let’s look at this statement… with the assimilation processes that have occurred in both the US and Canada (I’m not going to include SA for the moment) First Nations were and still are believed to be a dying race and culture. Every year I get some report about birth rates, loss of language and numbers of off reserve going up to convince us Indian folks to give up trying to be Indian. Every year we produce more Indian babies and more of our kids are becoming fluent in their language… but… new agers, tree huggers and the touchy feelies who believe they are the ones sent to save us from extinction ignore those stats and run amok in get ups/ceremonies/villages/*******izing our languages that they think are helping preserve us for us. "


Culture always has been up for grabs. The very fact that we are communicating on this board using the English language and the Roman alphabet is proof of that.
I never said anything about a "dying race and culture", nor did I mention anything about "new agers, tree huggers.....".


"Yes, morals and ethics… it is a concept I find most of the dominant culture as having the most difficulty with understanding. Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should."


How is putting on a fringed buckskin dress (or sari, kilt, cheongsam) as a fashion statement immoral or unethical? If it is immoral and unethical for a white woman to put on a buckskin dress, then it is equally so for you to put on a kilt or a sarong, were you so inclined to do so.

Indian culture doesn't exist in a vacuum.

I see natives selling (at pow wows, native stores) Indian dress, regalia, jewelry, etc to anyone who has the cash to pay for it. By your logic, they are all immoral and unethical.

You can't have it both ways......help the native by buying his jewelry, and then accuse the the buyer of being an "Indian wannabe" when she/he puts it on.

"I guess you skimmed over the wording… In my own culture…"

No, that is what I meant. Within your own culture.


"Do you see how easy it is for the dominant culture to dismiss what a particular tribe/people believe in?"


Your making assumptions that I am of the "dominant culture" (Anglo- Saxon, or is that all whites, or all non-natives?). You can believe whatever you like. I dismiss ALL religious/spiritual/superstitous beliefs equally. That's just me. It has nothing to do with dominant culture, Indians, "your people", "my people"


"(There’s that big opener Jack, pay attention) "

Love the Condescension
.

"If your people believe in something else on how a child comes to be, then that’s what makes us (as in my people) different from yours"

I don't think in those terms.
In fact "my people", one half of the family anyway, may be a lot closer to "your people" than you may think Maybe even the same culture (Anishinaabe?)


"And why do you think that happens Jack? What I am referring to is that the dominant society has really only seen Indians as how the government, Hollywood and historians want them to see us. Seriously, ever asked a school kid from middle suburbia USA or Canada a few questions on their knowledge of First Nations? He/she will lump us all together and either say we are bloodthirsty or (if they have tree huggers for parents) say we have a special connection with the earth. It is that kind of view that leaves our communities and cultures wide open for a) interpretation b) exploitation and c) the crap that gets made up along the way by the Indian in their heart that even we start believing it".


I don't disagree with you. Nor do I disagree that there are idiot Indian "wannabes" who think that they are so cool.. There are also weekend Indian wannabes. I am not defending these people.


"Wow, didn’t realize that even Indians are accused of child sacrifice and ritual killings…thought that was reserved for the Satanists et al."


Come on, you're an educated person. Do some reading on Pawnee rites and customs. Aztecs and Maya also practiced human sacrifice.
Warefare, scalping, strife, slavery, poverty, famine, cruelty........all existed pre-contact.


"I have often said that some of our behaviours needed to be changed as some things were simply outdated so if that one is true, then it needed to go"

I agree.


"What I am referring to and you should know better are laws that outlawed dancing, potlatches, summer fishing camps, hunting camps and yes, even speaking our languages."

I agree.



"Jack, Jack, Jack…sigh… You are responding as if you were a good old boy… if you truly understood the issues of incarceration and the disproportionate percentage of First Nation offenders you would have spent less time typing your redneck response and more time questioning those figures…"


I've been called and thought of as many things (not all complimentary), but never a good old boy or a redneck

When all else fails, there is always the victimhood card. Play it now...play it in 3011? 5011?
Getting your butt off the rez, getting a job and giving up booze requires real effort. Much easier to booze it up, rape and end up in jail. (and no, not all Indians do this).



"Seriously, I was at a Native film festival a few years ago and the film I made with a Mohawk filmmaker was being screened. Both he and I arrived in our jeans and t-shirts and there was this chick there we all knew as a wannabe. She was dressed in her mocs, headband and some shirt that was made out of faux leather. Guess who the presssomething took pictures of? Not me and the other film maker… but her. We got told we didn’t look Indian enough in our jeans. Some folks viewing the film thought she was the film maker as well… her name was something along the lines of Something Big Eagle something woman. Qu’elle surprise there"…

I have no argument against any of that.

Last edited by jack2011; 09-11-2011 at 11:52 PM..
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Old 09-12-2011, 12:06 AM   #132
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Ok, we're way too serious now.... Indian dating according to Don Burnstick...


Thats funny lol only a native at heart would get that eeeeeeee thats me tring to be funny is it working?
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Old 09-12-2011, 01:27 AM   #133
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EP, Burnstick has a really funny piece on how Indian women laugh... cracks me up everytime I see it.
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Old 09-12-2011, 01:59 AM   #134
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i love it too and its funny cus its true!!
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Old 09-12-2011, 08:10 AM   #135
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EP, Burnstick has a really funny piece on how Indian women laugh... cracks me up everytime I see it.
I have seen that one ! OMG so funny, and very true .
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Old 09-12-2011, 10:50 AM   #136
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He's too funny
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Old 09-12-2011, 05:36 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yaahl View Post


Why is it so bizarre for the dominant culture to simply be spectators instead of always wanting to be in the centre? I go to friend's church services, I watch, I listen, I stand up when they ask and I sit when they tell me. You don't see me busting a move when the hallelujahs break out.

Where exactly are these hordes of white Indian wannabes showing up? Are you referring to pow wows? I haven't seen any of these hordes at any of the pow wows that i've attended.
At the recent Six Nations Pow Wow, as commercial a pow wow as any, the whites (also saw some Chinese, Japanese, East Indians) were just that, spectators. A few (very few) whites went in the circle, because they were asked, during intertribal. Not one had any sort of Indian regalia on

This pow wow goes out of its way to ask people to attend , to bring their friends, that the pow wow would be nothing without them, all welcome....hundreds of native sellers selling every type of Indian item from jingle dresses to full regalia and everything in between to an all white (or non-Indian) customer base (didn't see any Indian "shoppers")....ATM machine out in the field. Please bring your camera......please support the vendors by buying a unique hand crafted item (what are you supposed to do with the cool bracelet once you've bought it? wear it? Throw it away?)

So you're comparing going to a church with what, going to a pow wow?

We (wife & I) recently attended the Scottish Festival in Fergus (Ont.). Lots of people there...Chinese, Blacks, even the odd NDN or two....some even wore kilts. We all got to be Scots for the day and had a blast




"Seriously, ever asked a school kid from middle suburbia USA or Canada a few questions on their knowledge of First Nations? He/she will lump us all together and either say we are bloodthirsty or (if they have tree huggers for parents) say we have a special connection with the earth. It is that kind of view"


You are not as unique as you may think. Ask those same kids from middle suburbia USA or Canada a few questions on their knowlege of Chinese, Mexicans, Italians, Germans, Japanese, Poles....and you will get the same type of answers (ie : stereotyping)

Or, try asking those same type of questions of school kids in any other country. Try asking a bunch of Indian kids a few questions about their knowledge of same.
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Old 09-12-2011, 09:04 PM   #138
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Where exactly are these hordes of white Indian wannabes showing up? Are you referring to pow wows? I haven't seen any of these hordes at any of the pow wows that i've attended.
At the recent Six Nations Pow Wow, as commercial a pow wow as any, the whites (also saw some Chinese, Japanese, East Indians) were just that, spectators. A few (very few) whites went in the circle, because they were asked, during intertribal. Not one had any sort of Indian regalia on

This pow wow goes out of its way to ask people to attend , to bring their friends, that the pow wow would be nothing without them, all welcome....hundreds of native sellers selling every type of Indian item from jingle dresses to full regalia and everything in between to an all white (or non-Indian) customer base (didn't see any Indian "shoppers")....ATM machine out in the field. Please bring your camera......please support the vendors by buying a unique hand crafted item (what are you supposed to do with the cool bracelet once you've bought it? wear it? Throw it away?)

So you're comparing going to a church with what, going to a pow wow?

We (wife & I) recently attended the Scottish Festival in Fergus (Ont.). Lots of people there...Chinese, Blacks, even the odd NDN or two....some even wore kilts. We all got to be Scots for the day and had a blast




"Seriously, ever asked a school kid from middle suburbia USA or Canada a few questions on their knowledge of First Nations? He/she will lump us all together and either say we are bloodthirsty or (if they have tree huggers for parents) say we have a special connection with the earth. It is that kind of view"


You are not as unique as you may think. Ask those same kids from middle suburbia USA or Canada a few questions on their knowlege of Chinese, Mexicans, Italians, Germans, Japanese, Poles....and you will get the same type of answers (ie : stereotyping)

Or, try asking those same type of questions of school kids in any other country. Try asking a bunch of Indian kids a few questions about their knowledge of same.
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Old 09-12-2011, 10:03 PM   #139
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I see one white Indian wannabe in that video....have never seen that at any of the pow wows I've gone to, but yeah, I agree, that idiot needs to get a life...he's an embarrassment to himself and to natives. They should of kicked his a*s out.
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Old 09-12-2011, 10:12 PM   #140
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Joe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond reputeJoe's Dad has a reputation beyond repute
Join Date: Nov 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jack2011 View Post
I see one white Indian wannabe in that video....have never seen that at any of the pow wows I've gone to, but yeah, I agree, that idiot needs to get a life...he's an embarrassment to himself and to natives. They should of kicked his a*s out.
Mr. jack, with all due respect...I copied that video from this thread. If you notice, all the words are in german.

http://www.powwows.com/gathering/sho...ht=yellow+bird
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Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


"When I was young man I did some dumb things and the elders would talk to me. Sometimes I listened. Time went by and as I looked around...I was the elder".

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