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Old 05-14-2009, 11:39 PM   #101
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Wait... Bear, are you saying that I am an atheist because I do not believe in your god ?

Reply : You don't belive in a god.
My Reply : Wrong. I believe in a god, I just define "god" differently than you...meaning I have a different god than you.
Reply : Your definition of god is not in line with my definition, therefor, I consider your definition incorrect.
My Reply : Meaning?
Reply : That you are an atheist because you don't define god in a way that I believe is authentic.
My Reply : Again.. this means that you believe I have no religion because I don't believe in god the way you think I should..

*** Congratulations... we just re-inacted the dynamic that took place between the old Ilnu shamans and the Catholic Priests !

I have a religion which is authentic and ancient. Just because it does not match with YOUR definitions, does not make me sans religion... I am not an atheist because I DO believe in higher powers... just because those higher powers are not SPOOKS IN THE SKY does not mean that those higher powers (the nature of the mind/soul and the dynamics of causes and results) are inauthentic or lacking.

Your claim that I am an atheist-- which is equal to saying that I have no religion--- is the EXACT same bulls**t that the old Ilnu had to go through with the Catholic Priests.

We DO have religion-- just not yours.

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Old 05-14-2009, 11:48 PM   #102
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Wangi - I am sorry that my question offended you, but I think I provided the comment as to why I asked it . I don't know you in person, so please understand that I cannot just assume anything about you. You made a statement which set of an alarm in my head, so I called it out. Please... if you didn't mean it that way, then there is nothing to be offended by.

I just see alot of people these days who want to "save the youth"... but really, they want to "save their culture"..


..and the two are DIFFERENT goals.

One means you flex the culture to provide for the youth. The other means you sacrifice the youth to benefit the culture.

Two different paths.
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Old 05-15-2009, 11:41 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by IlnuSoldier View Post
wyo - I agree that it is off topic--- but you are right, it does tie-in to my anti-AIM and Anti-Pan-Indianism.... but there is no Lakota-abhorrence... I just am tired of Pan-Indianism (of which the Lakota are the poster-child).

My derailment about Anne-Mae and Pine Ridge came as a snide response to Joe's Dad's comments....I'll own up to it.

Bear - But you are right... my real "enemy" is AIM.. not all AIM..just those responsible for her death... (and some other issues)
I hope you watched or will watch the PBS series (available for online viewing) We Shall Remain - Wounded Knee which talks about the Wounded Knee occupation in the 70's. Not a complete or comprehensive show, but very interesting regarding the collaboration between AIM and the Lakotas at Pine Ridge - just during the occupation and not the events after.
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Old 05-16-2009, 05:55 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IlnuSoldier View Post
Wait... Bear, are you saying that I am an atheist because I do not believe in your god ?

Reply : You don't belive in a god.
My Reply : Wrong. I believe in a god, I just define "god" differently than you...meaning I have a different god than you.
Reply : Your definition of god is not in line with my definition, therefor, I consider your definition incorrect.
My Reply : Meaning?
Reply : That you are an atheist because you don't define god in a way that I believe is authentic.
My Reply : Again.. this means that you believe I have no religion because I don't believe in god the way you think I should..

*** Congratulations... we just re-inacted the dynamic that took place between the old Ilnu shamans and the Catholic Priests !

I have a religion which is authentic and ancient. Just because it does not match with YOUR definitions, does not make me sans religion... I am not an atheist because I DO believe in higher powers... just because those higher powers are not SPOOKS IN THE SKY does not mean that those higher powers (the nature of the mind/soul and the dynamics of causes and results) are inauthentic or lacking.

Your claim that I am an atheist-- which is equal to saying that I have no religion--- is the EXACT same bulls**t that the old Ilnu had to go through with the Catholic Priests.

We DO have religion-- just not yours.
She calls em as she sees em.
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Old 05-26-2009, 04:03 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IlnuSoldier View Post
Wait... Bear, are you saying that I am an atheist because I do not believe in your god ?

Reply : You don't belive in a god.
My Reply : Wrong. I believe in a god, I just define "god" differently than you...meaning I have a different god than you.
Reply : Your definition of god is not in line with my definition, therefor, I consider your definition incorrect.
My Reply : Meaning?
Reply : That you are an atheist because you don't define god in a way that I believe is authentic.
My Reply : Again.. this means that you believe I have no religion because I don't believe in god the way you think I should..

*** Congratulations... we just re-inacted the dynamic that took place between the old Ilnu shamans and the Catholic Priests !

I have a religion which is authentic and ancient. Just because it does not match with YOUR definitions, does not make me sans religion... I am not an atheist because I DO believe in higher powers... just because those higher powers are not SPOOKS IN THE SKY does not mean that those higher powers (the nature of the mind/soul and the dynamics of causes and results) are inauthentic or lacking.

Your claim that I am an atheist-- which is equal to saying that I have no religion--- is the EXACT same bulls**t that the old Ilnu had to go through with the Catholic Priests.

We DO have religion-- just not yours.

No not exactly .. you are saying you don't believe in a God as a deity but god as men and what they can do.. that is a concept, not a definition but in your case it is merely a "re-definition" that is not world accepted. A personal definition/concept... whatever you want to call it. But by definition you would be considered atheist... now if you want to be more accurate, accept the definition of agnostic which fits much better.

Main Entry: 1ag·nos·tic
Pronunciation: \ag-ˈnäs-tik, əg-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Greek agnōstos unknown, unknowable, from a- + gnōstos known, from gignōskein to know — more at know
Date: 1869
1: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable ; broadly : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god
2: a person unwilling to commit to an opinion about something
— ag·nos·ti·cism \-tə-ˌsi-zəm\ noun
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Old 05-26-2009, 09:48 AM   #106
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Wrong--- I'm not agnostic .. I don't believe that the "primordial power" of the universe is "unknown"....nor do I fail to commit to a belief...

again... you are over simplifying and categorizing my religion in a way that YOU can understand--- just like the catholic priests.

Also, I did not say "man is god"... I said "Man is a temporary condition for the mind/soul and that the mind/soul is "god" "

Meaning that the nature of mind/soul is "my god". This has many names, such as "manitu" or "atshak"...
manitu being the primordial expansive quality and the atshak being the "consciousness" quality...
.. so this is not some "unknown". In fact, this system of belief is well laid out, quite complicated, and well defined. There are no gaps or unknowns.

You just can't accept that a vast and complicated religion which does not have a Deity as the central hub-- could possibly exist.

It can and it does. Many full-blown religions (ancient ones at that) have something other than a singular Anthropomorphic God in the center.

Seeing as how I am an avid follower of said relgion, I believe I have comitted to "an action or opinion".

..and thus, I negate all the definitions of Agnostic.
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Old 05-26-2009, 09:51 AM   #107
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Also-- words are just words.. they have no intrinsic quality (read: definition).... their meaning is chosen and agreed upon by the people who use them.

Any anthropologist will tell you that a dictionary is a poor source for "meaning of a word"... as dictionaries take years to write and compile... and by then, the meaning of the word may well have changed or been altered. They are a good place "to start".. but there is no "authority" in a dictionary---- what-so-ever.

Dictionaries are not "god of words"...they are just a collection of words with the general meaning of the words at the time the data was collected.

In otherwords--- people who quote dictionaries as if they are scripture are ignorant to what a dictionary actually is.
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Old 05-27-2009, 04:41 AM   #108
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When you are using english.. the dictionary is the source for definition of words to make things a bit more clearcut. Very little deters from the meanings of english words but I would agree with you if you were saying things in native languages... but english is pretty set in stone. And if you think there is no authority in a dictionary, use that same excuse with an english teacher when you use a word incorrectly in term paper LOL!!! Most dictionaries will tell you the origin of the word and what it formally meant as opposed to a modern meaning.. but mostly you find that in slang such as the word (female dog)or (equine but not horse).

Quote:
You just can't accept that a vast and complicated religion which does not have a Deity as the central hub-- could possibly exist.
That's the thing.. is it a religion or a belief system without a deity? Longhouse isn't a religion because it does not worship a deity but it is a belief system and a set of guidelines to live by. But because of the ceremonies and societies it somewhat resembles a religion...
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Old 05-27-2009, 10:15 AM   #109
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Bear - Most native and Asian religions do not have a Deity as the central hub. In fact, the mass majority of "Algonquin" tribes did not have a "Great Spirit" until after the influence of the Catholic priests.... but even to this day, the Manitushiun religion does not have a god as its central hub....

and in terms of Major World Religions--- Buddhism has no god, so are you going to say that Buddhism is not a religion ? Taoism has no god, are you going to say it is not a religion ?

If you are saying that religion must have a Central Deity, then you --just like the White Priests --- are saying that millions upon millions of people are "without religion". ... despite the fact that they have one of the most highly developed and complex "religions" on the planet---- because they do not believe in a God, you are going to dismiss them as religions ?

LOL.... that is really narrow-minded... even more narrow-minded than me !

*Before you say ANYTHING about natives having "Great spirit".. do your research... the "Great Spirit" pandemic spread mostly during the Pan-Indian movement... but before that, most tribes were CHRISTIANIZED... and "Great Spirit" became a way to say "Jehovah" without saying "Jehovah". Most native tribes believed in universal forces.. such as the procession of stars, time, life energy,etc.etc... if they believe in "god" it was "Gods"... pantheons of deities --- NONE of which had "Omniscient Creator" status.

*even the Lakota, whom many think I have a grudge against... even they fall into this category. The Wakan Tanka is not a single creator god, but rather, a collection of ancient and powerful Deities (Sun, Sky, Rock, etc.etc.).. when a person is born--- NONE OF THEM CREATE THE PERSON.. because the person's spirit is also "wakan" .. which by "definition" means it is beyond birth and death.. meaning that the Wakan Tanka can only "assemble birth".. meaning, they take the spirit and match it with a guide and a ghost .. then this combination is entered into a body.. upon death, the ghost and guide go back to where they came from and the spirit continues on...
So, even in the Lakota system, you don't find a singular Creator.. only a "council of assemblers"...
.. and you also find the teaching which says mind/soul is without creation or destruction...

... Manitushiun just goes one step further in saying that the mind/soul is the most primordial "level"...

and where-as the Lakota believe that the world is an illusory manifestation of the different deities of the Wakan Tanka (the limited version of the deity we are capable of seeing with human eyes)...

.. Manitushiun does agree that the world is an illusion in this way.. but rather than the nature of the illusion is not "the deities themselves".. but rather a universal law.

.... the law stating that nothing has instrinsic form.. so EVERYTHING is only a limited "verision" of something greater...
..thus, not limit to just deities.. but all things..

Then, we go one step further to say that the SOURCE.. the "REASON for appearances" is because of the Lucidity of the Mind/Soul..

Thus.. rather than saying everything is an illusory display of the Deities.. we go back farther and say that it is an illusory display of the Universe.... then we go back one step farther and say it is an illusory display of the Mind/Soul..

.. because that is the nature of the Mind/Soul --- to display and experience.

Thus, the key difference here is that the Lakota believe the Wakan Tanka deities are eternal--- where as Manitushiun says that NO deity is eternal---
Both systems agree that the world is an illusion and that the soul/mind is without birth or death.

However.. the key difference here is that Manitushiun says that the soul of the human is the same type of soul (mind) that a Deity has.. thus, while the outer display may be RELATIVELY different (Deity and Human)... in actual nature, the mind/soul of the deity is same as the human...

Thus, the SOUL of the Deity .. just like the Soul of the Man... is beyond birth and death...

Manitushiun makes this claim... Lakota religion does not.

Thus.. for the Lakota.. the world is a display of the Deities..
For the Manitushiun.. .the world is a display of mind/soul...

However... in NEITHER SYSTEM... is the world the "Creation" of a singular creator God..

In BOTH systems.. there are "instrinsic factors" which make the world APPEAR (not actually exist, just appear) simply due to their presence in the universe...

After that initial display, they only "ASSEMBLE FACTORS" (such as assembling spirit,ghost, and guide for "human birth")... they never "Create" something from nothing.

So, in conclusion... No Singular Creator God.

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Old 05-27-2009, 02:29 PM   #110
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I said it does not have a deity... I did not say that it was limited to one. Asian cultures usually have more than one deity. And there is still worship even in Buddism.. even if he is not a deity proper.

So religion itself might not be completly a boxed catagory for what defines itself. But even so... it's far off the beaten track of what this thread was originally about LOL!

I'm done for now.. can't concentrate with people arguing with their imaginary friends downstairs and yelling AW SHUT UP every five minutes LOL!! Someone needs his meds and I guess I should go take care of that...LOL!
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Old 05-27-2009, 03:07 PM   #111
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You guys got so deep, intellectually, that I have run from this thread like a pre-pubescent pansy!!!
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Old 05-28-2009, 12:11 AM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IlnuSoldier View Post
Bear - Most native and Asian religions do not have a Deity as the central hub. In fact, the mass majority of "Algonquin" tribes did not have a "Great Spirit" until after the influence of the Catholic priests.... but even to this day, the Manitushiun religion does not have a god as its central hub....

and in terms of Major World Religions--- Buddhism has no god, so are you going to say that Buddhism is not a religion ? Taoism has no god, are you going to say it is not a religion ?

If you are saying that religion must have a Central Deity, then you --just like the White Priests --- are saying that millions upon millions of people are "without religion". ... despite the fact that they have one of the most highly developed and complex "religions" on the planet---- because they do not believe in a God, you are going to dismiss them as religions ?

LOL.... that is really narrow-minded... even more narrow-minded than me !

*Before you say ANYTHING about natives having "Great spirit".. do your research... the "Great Spirit" pandemic spread mostly during the Pan-Indian movement... but before that, most tribes were CHRISTIANIZED... and "Great Spirit" became a way to say "Jehovah" without saying "Jehovah". Most native tribes believed in universal forces.. such as the procession of stars, time, life energy,etc.etc... if they believe in "god" it was "Gods"... pantheons of deities --- NONE of which had "Omniscient Creator" status.

*even the Lakota, whom many think I have a grudge against... even they fall into this category. The Wakan Tanka is not a single creator god, but rather, a collection of ancient and powerful Deities (Sun, Sky, Rock, etc.etc.).. when a person is born--- NONE OF THEM CREATE THE PERSON.. because the person's spirit is also "wakan" .. which by "definition" means it is beyond birth and death.. meaning that the Wakan Tanka can only "assemble birth".. meaning, they take the spirit and match it with a guide and a ghost .. then this combination is entered into a body.. upon death, the ghost and guide go back to where they came from and the spirit continues on...
So, even in the Lakota system, you don't find a singular Creator.. only a "council of assemblers"...
.. and you also find the teaching which says mind/soul is without creation or destruction...

... Manitushiun just goes one step further in saying that the mind/soul is the most primordial "level"...

and where-as the Lakota believe that the world is an illusory manifestation of the different deities of the Wakan Tanka (the limited version of the deity we are capable of seeing with human eyes)...

.. Manitushiun does agree that the world is an illusion in this way.. but rather than the nature of the illusion is not "the deities themselves".. but rather a universal law.

.... the law stating that nothing has instrinsic form.. so EVERYTHING is only a limited "verision" of something greater...
..thus, not limit to just deities.. but all things..

Then, we go one step further to say that the SOURCE.. the "REASON for appearances" is because of the Lucidity of the Mind/Soul..

Thus.. rather than saying everything is an illusory display of the Deities.. we go back farther and say that it is an illusory display of the Universe.... then we go back one step farther and say it is an illusory display of the Mind/Soul..

.. because that is the nature of the Mind/Soul --- to display and experience.

Thus, the key difference here is that the Lakota believe the Wakan Tanka deities are eternal--- where as Manitushiun says that NO deity is eternal---
Both systems agree that the world is an illusion and that the soul/mind is without birth or death.

However.. the key difference here is that Manitushiun says that the soul of the human is the same type of soul (mind) that a Deity has.. thus, while the outer display may be RELATIVELY different (Deity and Human)... in actual nature, the mind/soul of the deity is same as the human...

Thus, the SOUL of the Deity .. just like the Soul of the Man... is beyond birth and death...

Manitushiun makes this claim... Lakota religion does not.

Thus.. for the Lakota.. the world is a display of the Deities..
For the Manitushiun.. .the world is a display of mind/soul...

However... in NEITHER SYSTEM... is the world the "Creation" of a singular creator God..

In BOTH systems.. there are "instrinsic factors" which make the world APPEAR (not actually exist, just appear) simply due to their presence in the universe...

After that initial display, they only "ASSEMBLE FACTORS" (such as assembling spirit,ghost, and guide for "human birth")... they never "Create" something from nothing.

So, in conclusion... No Singular Creator God.
I can see you have done some study of traditional "religions", I perfer belief systems myself. Great contrast and explaination of a key element of both belief systems, you won't get that in a theology class.
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Old 05-28-2009, 02:50 AM   #113
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Wow....is this intro to world religions or are we still talking about the black hills...anyways I am Lakota and I have found myself struggling with the answer to this one..........accept the $$ or not to accept it.....I guess it would depend on what the motives were...I think each and every one of us Lakota people should ask Wakantanka for the answer( Now let me clarify) WAKANTANKA....not his "human represenatives" on earth...we as NDN people like to spew about "white mans religion" ...majesterium, and the craftiness of wicked men....but whos calling the kettle black?? as we all know when it comes to charletans and mans agendas we take the ****en taco....so the question is what is God telling you?? not religion, not the false precepts of man but GOD....if you believe that raising a family is central to the creators plan for us and that children are a blessing and a gift from the creator...then why subject them to uneccesary suffering and deprivation ?? Let alone that some "medicine man"?? is suggesting that you do...the same "medicine men" who sell our sacred ceremonies, the same MEN who sell eagle feathers and exploit our culture for profit who live semi comfortable lives while the rest must go without....who, which one of them have the right to dictate just how we are to support and feed our children...none of them do..PERIOD !! YES Take the Money and grow!! this is God will....God is so infinite do you really think that he cares about a small patch of land when his people are still freezing to death in the winter?? when children still die from curable diseases..when people are starving...I couldnt see Alla, Yahweh, nor their profits Mohamed, Yeshua, any of them ever and I mean ever saying anything remotley to that effect!! even on their worst days...unless I recieved direct revelation from God (through prayer and fasting) then I am signing...how could I let this wonderful gift given to me by Wakantanka...my children suffer continually for false and stubborn pride....what because "chief **** in the bucket" says so does he feed our children does he sit awake at night listening on a cold winter in pine ridge to children struggling to breath because they contracted pnemonia...or kids crying of hunger cuz mom and dad went to white clay or valentine nebraska to drink up their food money...no they dont they may be a product of said poverty but theyve hardened their hearts to the stark reality of it all ...and its a shame...for they are the ones who have truly lost their identity...if I wanted religion....and legalisms I could join victory outreach...or become a christian fundamentalist...at least there I would know who to watch out for.........besides we didnt spring out of their like grass on the prairie we butchered the Kiowas for it why dont we ask them what they think of it all cuz to me they still have a claim....they were their first...Sign me up and i will do what God has commanded since day one...Aho Mitakuye oyasin....Dokca...The Apostle...
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Old 05-28-2009, 11:15 AM   #114
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Old 05-28-2009, 11:41 AM   #115
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Bear - In Buddhism, they don't worship Buddha.. they go to Buddha(s) for refuge because the Buddha has become transcendental, and thus.. because a Buddha is beyond the world's laws, a Buddha operates "above the system"...
THey don't go to Buddha as a "god".
Also.. Buddha is able to provide refuge not because "he is intrinsically a God".. but because of the realization he has accomplished.

Thus.. no "instrinsic gods".. only beings who become awakened and choose to help those unawakened.

This same idea exist in Manitushiun, and we beseech enlightened beings to help and guide us...

I know some Asians actually do pray to Buddha like a Christian prays to Jesus--- but this is a "folk misunderstanding"... a mis-use of the religion, so to speak. Buddhism's doctrine clearly defines "god" and "buddha".. and what one can and can't do.
Just like if someone misunderstands the Lakota religion and prays to the Buffalo for blessing (rather than praying to the Wakan Tanka to be blessed with Buffalo).. it is simply a mistake on the person and not the actual doctrine.
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Old 05-28-2009, 02:29 PM   #116
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You guys got so deep, intellectually, that I have run from this thread like a pre-pubescent pansy!!!
yeah but the **** gives me a headache after awhile being ADD. Reminds me of the good old days of arguing with philosophy majors in the bar I worked at.... that was some pretty funny stuff man. Give a kid an education and suddenly fresh out of his class he's an expert on everything LOL!

When we were kids it was... guess what I learned today! In college it's.. I know more about it than you cause I took (insert class name) 101 and just because you lived it or was there doesn't mean you read so and so's book on it! BHAHAHAHAHAHA!
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Old 06-09-2009, 08:48 AM   #117
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Rosebud tribe objects to class-action settlement suit
by Heidi Bell Gease, Journal staff
Rapid City Journal - 8 June 2009
Rapid City Journal | News » Top | Rosebud tribe objects to class-action settlement suit

Rosebud Sioux Tribal officials have filed a motion to intervene in a federal class- action lawsuit aimed at forcing the U.S. Secretary of the Interior to distribute settlement monies granted to the Great Sioux Nation for the unlawful taking of the Black Hills.

In an affidavit filed Friday in U.S. District Court, tribal President Rodney Bordeaux said the Rosebud Tribe is on record as rejecting any monetary settlement for lands that were taken unlawfully, believing that, if money were accepted, it would be deemed a ceding of Treaty rights.

"The Tribe is hopeful that, at some point in time, the settlement funds can be exchanged for lands in the Black Hills, even if the lands are currently owned by the federal government," the affidavit reads. "The Tribe has continually sought return of Black Hills land since the award of money was made nearly 30 years ago, and the Tribe is hopeful that the current administration may be willing to return some lands to the Tribe."

Bordeaux stated that he "know(s) of no other Sioux tribes in South Dakota, Nebraska, North Dakota or Montana that have agreed to accept settlement funds, instead insisting on the return of land."

The tribe's motion to intervene comes in response to a class-action complaint filed April 15 against U.S. Secretary of the Interior Ken Salazar and Special Trustee Donna Erwin. The complaint was brought by Kenneth G. Different Horse, Miranda Rae Different Horse, Jennifer Lee Grassrope, Geneva Watlemath, Joe Bone Club, Monica Bearfact, Donald Weinberger III, Debra Boyd, Larry Henry, Melissa Moore Ammon, Winowna Henry Schultz, Ida Guerre, Chester Herman, Colin Campbell, Matthew Lamont, Sandra Harmon, Kevin Sargeant, Gaylene J. Long-Stump, Patrick Jack Long and "John Does 1 through 50,000."

The plaintiffs are members of the Rosebud, Oglala, Cheyenne River, Crow Creek, Standing Rock, Lower Brule, Fort Peck and Santee Sioux tribes, all members of the Great Sioux Nation.

In 1980, the U.S. Supreme Court upheld an Indian Claims Commission decision to award the Great Sioux Nation $17.1 million -- plus 5 percent interest -- for the federal government's unlawful taking of millions of acres of land that was promised to them by the 1868 Treaty of Fort Laramie, Black Hills lands.

According to the recent complaint, the government required all eight tribes to agree upon allocation of the money within 10 years. Almost 30 years have passed with no agreement. The settlement amount now totals about $900 million with interest.

Plaintiffs in the class-action suit contend that the defendants are obligated to distribute that settlement money and that the plaintiffs are eligible to receive individual portions of the money.

But attorneys for the Rosebud Sioux Tribe say the plaintiffs have no legal standing to seek distribution of the money, do not represent the tribe, and have failed to state a statute or law that would require distribution of the money.

A news release from Bordeaux's office issued Monday also notes that all eight tribes in the Great Sioux Nation are represented by Salazar and Irwin.

"The Rosebud Sioux Tribe has no knowledge of the position of the other seven Tribes in Nebraska, North Dakota and Montana," the release reads. "The United States and its agents Salazar and Irwin are obviously representing conflicting interests in being sued as representatives of eight Indian Tribes."
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Old 06-09-2009, 09:15 AM   #118
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So, we're using the fact that we haven't gotten our unified act together as validation for not being pragmatic? (This is akin to an estranged half-brother holding out on the Executor until he gets the bone china...)

I wonder what nearly a BILLION dollars could do for the infrastructure and long-term health of the Lakota? Certainly more than pining over property that they, originally, annexed!

They're not getting the land back, for lots of reasons.

GROW UP.
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Old 06-09-2009, 04:53 PM   #119
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"I wonder what nearly a BILLION dollars could do for the infrastructure and long-term health of the Lakota? Certainly more than pining over property that they, originally, annexed!"

So do I, but for very different reasons. Look at the corrupt tribal governments and how well their relatives live while the rest go hungry and cold. More money = more corruption because it will only intensify the greed.

The real issue here is between the traditional and non traditional. Traditional believers are aware of the two sacred hides that reveal the Lakota Star Knowledge. It is this sacred knowledge that links the Lakota to the Paha Sapa, the Black Hills. The sacred connections between the sky and the earth are revealed through the study of the Lakota Star Knowledge. Unless you know understand and have NOT been converted to the ways of greed, you can not see the importance of preserving what can be preserved.

So much time and energy has gone into the discussion of "religion" or "spiritual life-ways" on this board but no one has mentioned the spiritual connection between the land and the Lakota. Earth based belief systems are intricately connected to the land. If the money destroys the future spiritual connections of the youth to the land then the money will have done what the government intended all along, killed the Lakota.

You can pass judgment on the Lakota’s decision to refuse the money based on spiritual beliefs but you get your own feathers ruffled when others question you on your spiritual beliefs. Why is that???
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Old 06-09-2009, 04:53 PM   #120
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"I wonder what nearly a BILLION dollars could do for the infrastructure and long-term health of the Lakota? Certainly more than pining over property that they, originally, annexed!"

So do I, but for very different reasons. Look at the corrupt tribal governments and how well their relatives live while the rest go hungry and cold. More money = more corruption because it will only intensify the greed.

The real issue here is between the traditional and non traditional. Traditional believers are aware of the two sacred hides that reveal the Lakota Star Knowledge. It is this sacred knowledge that links the Lakota to the Paha Sapa, the Black Hills. The sacred connections between the sky and the earth are revealed through the study of the Lakota Star Knowledge. Unless you know understand and have NOT been converted to the ways of greed, you can not see the importance of preserving what can be preserved.

So much time and energy has gone into the discussion of "religion" or "spiritual life-ways" on this board but no one has mentioned the spiritual connection between the land and the Lakota. Earth based belief systems are intricately connected to the land. If the money destroys the future spiritual connections of the youth to the land then the money will have done what the government intended all along, killed the Lakota.

You can pass judgment on the Lakota’s decision to refuse the money based on spiritual beliefs but you get your own feathers ruffled when others question you on your spiritual beliefs. Why is that???
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