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Old 07-02-2009, 12:27 PM   #141
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Wangi - Again..same scenerio :

What if the earth blew up and your spirit was left without any "land".. would it cease to exist or would it just continue on in the universe ?

I will answer this for you : Your spirit would continue on, just as it did before the Earth was formed... and it will continue to continue on, long after the next world comes and goes..etc.etc..

Focus on your own nature.. not the temporary everchanging environment that you happen to find yourself in at the current time.

Or, simply put : Any spiritual path based on a temporary object is doomed to never provide any satisfaction or development of the spirit.
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Old 07-02-2009, 12:46 PM   #142
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My personal spiritual path is earth based.
I know and understand that this physical life would not exist if it were not for my Earth Mother.
Everything you eat walks, swims, flys, or grows upon Her.
Everything you wear is provided by Her elements.
Even your computer that you use to access this site is made from the elements She provides.
You may use your money to buy all these things but without the Earth Mother you would not even have that money.

You are correct my spirit will continue but you need not answer for me, I have a voice.
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Old 07-02-2009, 12:51 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
No, we ALL have. Whether we wanted to, or not.

In sum, it's not your land.

That's just the Real World.
Joni says this so well I'll let her speak!

Words by Joni Mitchell

I am Lakota!
Lakota!
Looking at money man--
Diggin' the deadly quotas--
Out of balance--
Out of hand
We want the land!
Lay down the reeking ore!
Don't you hear the shrieking in the trees?
Everywhere you touch the earth--she's sore
Every time you skin her all things weep
Your money mocks us--
Restitution--what good can it do?--
Kennelled in metered boxes
Red dogs in debt to you

I am Lakota!
Lakota!
Fighting among ourselves
All we can say with one whole heart
Is we won't sell--
No we'll never sell
We want the land!
The lonely coyote calls
In the woodlands--footprints of the deer
In the barrooms--poor drunk ******* falls
In the courtrooms--deaf ears--sixty years
You think we're sleeping--but
Quietly like rattlesnakes and stars
We have seen the trampled rainbows
In the smoke of cars

I am Lakota
Brave
Sun pity me
I am Lakota
Broken
Moon pity me
I am Lakota
Grave
Shadows stretching
Lakota
Oh pity me
I am Lakota
Weak
Grass pity me
I am Lakota
Faithful
Rocks pity me
I am Lakota
Meek
Standing water
Lakota
Oh pity me

I am Lakota!
Lakota!
Standing on sacred land
We never sold these Black Hills
To the missile-heads--
To the power plants
We want the land!
The bullet and the fence--broke Lakota
The black coats and the booze--broke Lakota
Courts that circumvent--choke Lakota
Nothing left to lose
Tell me grandfather
You spoke the fur and feather tongues--
Do you hear the whimpering waters
When the tractors come?

Sun pity me
Mother earth
Mother
Moon pity me
Father sky
Father
Shadows
Stretching on the forest floor
Mother earth
Oh pity me
Father sky
Father
Grass pity me
Mother earth
Mother
Rocks pity me
Father sky
Father
Water
Standing in a Wakan manner
Mother earth
Oh pity me
[ Joni Mitchell Lyrics are found on Lyrics ]
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Old 07-05-2009, 10:31 AM   #144
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Opinions verses manipulation

Wangi Chetan
I appreciate all you have to say, was said with a lot of sincerity. I respect that, I would respect it even if it was the other way around. Point is I am not here to change your thought on anything, or anyone elses.

I do not know you and you do not know me. I refuse to be manipulated by anyone’s undocumented proof. Or twisted versions or modern genocide or whatever the heck you call it. I am who I am I can think for myself, I have my own opinions, I respect other opinions that are constructive and not rude, name calling, or trying to be superior as to knock some one else’s beliefs down. Does anyone in here see me telling them what to believe how to live, what to or not to give up or how to think? No I have not. But yet some people in here think I just have to sit and take the crap handed out by certain individuals. It is not my nature to be rude to anyone. I happen to have lived on the reservation where I know the way people live. I know that we all don't think alike even on our own reservation. It's all because of the Assimilation that was brought upon us. Or maybe it wasn’t, I don’t know why or for what reason. I do know that those who were assimilated back then (boarding school era) told me that the ones that were not willing to change their ways like learn how to speak the English language and learn how to be civilized were condemned by their own people. That is what I see going on right now. In a sense everyone in this whole world should conform. I have talked to Pakistani, people from Nigeria, Sudan, and Algeria. These people have told me that is wrong , the US they try to convert everyone. Look at how they treated Obama what because he was Black. Why are we constantly in other countries trying to change the way they live.

I make comments put things up to generate thought not thought provocative hate or change. It’s just, opinions. That’s all, its commentary that others have views. When I talk or make comments I try to be as careful as I can. If my comments include the word we I am speaking for the many people I know that share the same common thought If I could bring them in here I would but many don’t have computers. I was once told Roxy you need to get up here our people don’t read they are not educated they do not understand these big words our leaders use.
I am out to help my people not to see them destroyed. That is well known on my reservation they all know who I am my son is a drummer and singer we participate in our traditions and culture. Now if that’s out of the ordinary excuse me, that’s just me and who I am just an ordinary indigenous aboriginal equay.



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Old 07-07-2009, 05:11 AM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
"Along the lines of," does NOT qualify (as a personal attack). And it IS our duty to eradicate missives that hold us back.

That said, I find your post very humorous.

NICE.
You missed the point there buddy... "along the lines of" is my way of saying you need to reign it in before you step over that line... is that clear enough now? It is a warning. If you really cannot take reading LW's posts then use the ignore feature. I've already suggest it's use to LW as well.
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Old 07-07-2009, 05:13 AM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
YOU ALREADY HAVE.

In addition, for the record, pointing out the obvious flaws in argument, and how those flaws permeate the very existence of the person espousing them, is NOT a, "personal attack." (Further, so they don't propagate, it is our duty to lay bare their inadequacies.)

This is just where we are. If their obvious intellectual beating about the head and shoulders causes shudders, perhaps they should rework their theories into something that makes sense.
the moment you realize that your perception might not always be the right one, and that the rest of indian country and the world does not have to have the same perception/vision/opinion... you'll be much happier. And having your perception/vision/opinion does not make you of superior intellect or the most enlightened person on this forum.
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Old 07-07-2009, 09:34 AM   #147
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Whats the Difference...

The Lakota, just as anyone else have a ethnic religion who have the right to call or claim certain things sacred.

There are many Countries all over the world. In Egypt they have the pyramids; in Jerusalem they have the temples, In Rome they have the Vatican. In many of these places there are objects things, and places they call sacred.

Why are Aboriginal People denied this same respect. It should not even have anything to do with a land issue. Can you imagine what would happen if we built houses, factories, or hotels on their burial grounds? Or rob all the gold statues out of the temples or Vatican.

Ilun/solider
"Or, simply put : Any spiritual path based on a temporary object is doomed to never provide any satisfaction or development of the spirit."
L.W.WI
Our earth was not temporary object. If in fact it KA BOOOOM goes away that is a factor of nature. So we all will go to the land of the happy hunting grounds (sic) said in a slang phrase.
You have no right telling others what religion they have to live by. Quit being such a control freak.


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Old 07-07-2009, 02:31 PM   #148
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Wangi - Grant it, I agree.. but what I am proposing is a Two-Tiered System of belief..


Relative and Profound.

Relative.. yes.. an Earth Religion. We agree on this.
However,
on the Prfound level, that would be dealing with spirit.

These "two tiers" or "two levels of truth"... would not be in conflict or mutual exclusive to eachother...

Literally... one handles day-to-day relative matters... the other handles the grander scheme of things.

Thus, this said... The only "surpassing" is that ..ultimately, the Profound truth DOES outweigh the relative... as the relative truth is... well.. "relative".

Thus.. I am all for "Earth Religion".."Traditonal Tribal Culture'..etc.etc... of course..

The point I am making is that... BEYOND all of that... is a higher level of understanding which is unconditioned by the relative matters..

This level of understanding always makes way and room for the relative matters..

However.. NEVER should the relative matters weigh more than the Profound Matters..

In that way.... I say : "In relative conditioned existence, you are a native person on the planet Earth."

However, if the Earth were to blow up and ALL mankind dead...

... then what?

That would then be dealing with more profound matters, such as the nature of spirit,etc.etc.

So, I do not disagree with you on what you said, but I am suggesting that there is a higher more profound level of understanding that I am asking you to consider.
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Old 07-07-2009, 02:38 PM   #149
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Laughing - Yes... any culture has the right to make any CLAIM they want..

They do not have to right to bring about suffering upon themselves or others because of those claims..

Muslim Extemest DO NOT have the right to kill in the name of Allah..
... Catholic Priest DO NOT have the right to help the eradication of Native peoples...
... AIM DOES NOT have the right to commit actions in the name of "all Native peoples"...

..etc.etc.etc..

They can make any CLAIM they want.. but they do not have the right to IMPOSE such a claim onto others via the passage of laws, the enactment of war,etc.etc... especially if it brings about the suffering of those persons whom the claim is being imposed upon.

Furthermore..

Any culture can CLAIM anything it wants--- however, the simple act of believing and/or claiming does not make the claim valid.

Simply wanting to believe that your people did not come from Asia does not disprove the truth of an Asian origin NOR does it magically change history, such as in the statement :

"Well, originally we did come from Asia.. but we all gathered at the cultural center, closed our eyes and held hands... and wished really hard that history changed.. and now we don't come from Asia, we are from Minnesota the whole time."

So.. yea.. people can believe whatever they want----

-- it doesn't make their beliefs valid nor does it give them right or permission to inact those beliefs on those who 1.) Do not want to believe (as in Catholic Priest with their NDN schools and forced conversions) or 2.) brings about suffering on those who believe (brainwashing young kids into believing non-acurate ideologies and then they suffer and suffer because of it--- such as Pan-Indianist forcing the young kids on the rez to suffer because they refuse them their REAL culture)

And finally.. time for the real kicker :

If you actually knew your tribe's origins, language, and religion... the one BEFORE the christian and pan-indian influence...
... then you would not need to hide behind the "beliefs"..

.. .because as always...

... the REFERENCE section is much more profound than the FICTION section

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Old 07-07-2009, 02:50 PM   #150
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Laughing - BTW.. I would say the same shyt to any religion, especially the Vatican..etc.etc..


Any religion that places its axis mundi on a physical object is doomed and ineffective.

Objects can be sacred because of what they represent or because of their connection to said axis mundi.. that is fine..

.. HOwever... the object itself being the Axis Mundi ?

Simple stupidity. Objects come into existance, decay, and vanish.....

Your religion is thus doomed and provides no real relief from suffering nor real insight into the nature of the universe or the nature of spirit.

BTW - The Real Annishinabe religion places its axis mundi not on the Earth or on the Land .... so the ACTUAL Annishinabe religion is not doomed.

However--- that "Gitchi Manitu Pan-Indian Fried AIM induced Christullcination" you call "tribal belief" (or whatever the phuk you call it these days)....

... that is doomed.

And BTW

Your argument is flawed.. because you are trying to connect Spiritual Effeciency with Cultural Rights --- those are not the in same ballpark...

Hell.. not the same ballpark.. not the same League...

... Not even the same Sport.

Native People having a right to physical cultural relics is a totally DIFFERENT topic than the authenticity of the religion in question.

I never said natives dont' deserve the right to perserve their culture and relics..etc.
A religion might be totally Bullshyt, but the members of the religion have every right to their "material culture" as is logical and rational
What I said was this :

BASED ON WHAT YOU HAVE POSTED :

You are not a follower of the Pre-Christian Annishinabe religion and you are not a practitioner of the Pre-Pan-Indian Annishinabe Cultural Complex.


So...backing up to the VERY ORIGINAL REPLY I GAVE YOU :

(Now, read carefully as this is the piece that ties it all together )

Seeing as how you are a follower of a hybrid religion and a hybrid culture... it seems very hypocritical of you to be talking shyt on people who are followers of hybrid religions and practitioners of hybrid cultures.

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Old 07-07-2009, 03:26 PM   #151
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White people sure do write a lot!!!
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Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


"When I was young man I did some dumb things and the elders would talk to me. Sometimes I listened. Time went by and as I looked around...I was the elder".

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Old 07-07-2009, 07:55 PM   #152
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Oh quit that....He has a point ...not sure what yet

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe's Dad View Post
White people sure do write a lot!!!
but maybe he will get to it, so I am willing to listen.

To decipher all this because, truthfully I have never heard it put in this unfamiliar pretense.
Now can you see what it is he is trying to say? Or is it just me???? I am not trying to block out
What his basis of anything is, itís just that it goes in circles. That is hard to follow.
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Old 07-07-2009, 07:59 PM   #153
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ok I am listening just talk in normal lingo so that ....

Quote:
Originally Posted by IlnuSoldier View Post
Laughing - BTW.. I would say the same shyt to any religion, especially the Vatican..etc.etc..


Any religion that places its axis mundi on a physical object is doomed and ineffective.

Objects can be sacred because of what they represent or because of their connection to said axis mundi.. that is fine..

.. HOwever... the object itself being the Axis Mundi ?

Simple stupidity. Objects come into existance, decay, and vanish.....

Your religion is thus doomed and provides no real relief from suffering nor real insight into the nature of the universe or the nature of spirit.

BTW - The Real Annishinabe religion places its axis mundi not on the Earth or on the Land .... so the ACTUAL Annishinabe religion is not doomed.

However--- that "Gitchi Manitu Pan-Indian Fried AIM induced Christullcination" you call "tribal belief" (or whatever the phuk you call it these days)....

... that is doomed.

And BTW

Your argument is flawed.. because you are trying to connect Spiritual Effeciency with Cultural Rights --- those are not the in same ballpark...

Hell.. not the same ballpark.. not the same League...

... Not even the same Sport.

Native People having a right to physical cultural relics is a totally DIFFERENT topic than the authenticity of the religion in question.

I never said natives dont' deserve the right to perserve their culture and relics..etc.
A religion might be totally Bullshyt, but the members of the religion have every right to their "material culture" as is logical and rational
What I said was this :

BASED ON WHAT YOU HAVE POSTED :

You are not a follower of the Pre-Christian Annishinabe religion and you are not a practitioner of the Pre-Pan-Indian Annishinabe Cultural Complex.


So...backing up to the VERY ORIGINAL REPLY I GAVE YOU :

(Now, read carefully as this is the piece that ties it all together )

Seeing as how you are a follower of a hybrid religion and a hybrid culture... it seems very hypocritical of you to be talking shyt on people who are followers of hybrid religions and practitioners of hybrid cultures.
Me and who ever else wants to know about this can understand, really slow down and explain it better
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Old 07-07-2009, 09:49 PM   #154
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Joe's Dad - Thanks for finally proving, in one post, all the things I accused you of being. Namely : Ethnocentric, Xenophobic...and Fear-Based.

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Old 07-07-2009, 10:01 PM   #155
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Laughing -
"Seeing as how you are a follower of a hybrid religion and a hybrid culture... it seems very hypocritical of you to be talking shyt on people who are followers of hybrid religions and practitioners of hybrid cultures."

hybrid religion = means your religion is not traditional, but a mixture of several different religions (or, at least two) so that it forms a new religion.
For example :

Traditional Annishinabe religion + Pan-Indianism + Christianity = Your Religion

However, the biggest critique (means "complaint") is that, during this process of mixing religions, the counter-points of the religions neutralize eachother, leaving a lack of coherent doctrine. (That means the religions disprove eachother, and that the hybrid religion doesn't actually have any solid foundation)

The other "complaint" is that the authenticity ("realness") of the religion is compromised ("messed up") . Inotherwords, people feel like mixing religions messes up the religions that are being mixed... to the point that neither religion is properly represented within the mixture.

O.k... hopefully this is making sense so far.

Now, the next part :

Since your religion is a hybrid religion...

.. you become a hypocrite (means that you actually commit the things that you speak out against. The example : A professional thief who says that stealing is wrong and that he doesn't respect stealing)

..... when you critisize hybrid religions. (Meaning that you talk shyt on hybrid religions and insult the followers of those religions).

That is the entire point. End of story.

I was saying you were a hypocrite because you are guilty of the same thing you were calling foul.

* Disclaimer : While IlnuSoldier personally dislikes Pan-Indianism for its seemingly inherent quality to neuter native peoples and to obstruct a resurgence of actual traditional culture, he acknowledges people's rights to choose to live by its doctrine... same for Christinaity, Hindusim, Islam...etc.etc..
IlnuSoldier's "issue" is people claiming that the doctrines of Pan-Indianism or a Hybridized Traditionalize as the "real ancient tradition". People have the right to believe and practice as they see fit-- however, they do not have to right to claim forensically and historically false statements as true--- as these are also known as "lies". In short :
If you follow Pan-Indianism.. Fine.
If you follow a Christianized Native Religion.. fine.

Just don't sit there and do that... but then call foul about hybridzation NOR should you ever claim your Non-traditional belief to be traditional.

Pan-Indianism is not traditional (well, maybe for Lakota people in some regard)...
Chrisitianized Native religions (All that "Great Spirit" mumbo-jumbo) is not traditional.

Don't sit there are call foul when someone mixes Asian religious material with Traditonal Culture (calling them "false")....

.. but you are going to sit there and practice a Pan-Indian-Christullicination Religion ?
It is o.k. for NDNs to have a "personal relationship with Jesus Christ".. but not Buddha ? Not Allah ? Not Shiva ?

WTF ?

If you practice it : Fine.

Just don't claim it as "real traditional" and don't call foul on others who are doing the same thing.


And Laughing... to you directly... your Annishinabe... so I DO know your Pre-Christian tennets to -some- extent... Mide Birch Bark scrolls... the different islands with their different songs and rites.. The Horned Figure, yea.. what he actually means.. what the bear on the scrolls actually refers to.... The -real- turtle island and the -real- "thunderbird island"..etc.etc.....
.. and so my question is : Are you actually practicing enough REAL Annishinabe religion ( NOT the pan-indian stuff you post) to post the Bullshyt that you posted in the post that 'cause me to call you on it ?

Me thinks the answer is : No.

Again.. that is fine that you don't.
However, don't claim that you do and then call foul and make judgement calls when you don't.

Last edited by IlnuSoldier; 07-07-2009 at 10:21 PM..
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Old 07-07-2009, 10:34 PM   #156
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Joe's Dad - Thanks for finally proving, in one post, all the things I accused you of being. Namely : Ethnocentric, Xenophobic...and Fear-Based.
Dude...why are you being so defensive? I never said your name...she did!!!

Now take ZEKE. He's NDN. Doesn't use alot of words, he's just mean.

This is me --->
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Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


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Old 07-08-2009, 03:50 AM   #157
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the moment you realize that your perception might not always be the right one, and that the rest of indian country and the world does not have to have the same perception/vision/opinion... you'll be much happier. And having your perception/vision/opinion does not make you of superior intellect or the most enlightened person on this forum.
Blackbear I agree. I might be wrong! You might be right! and I don't know! are very powerfull realizations.
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Old 07-08-2009, 03:59 AM   #158
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Wangi - Grant it, I agree.. but what I am proposing is a Two-Tiered System of belief..


Relative and Profound.

Relative.. yes.. an Earth Religion. We agree on this.
However,
on the Prfound level, that would be dealing with spirit.

These "two tiers" or "two levels of truth"... would not be in conflict or mutual exclusive to eachother...

Literally... one handles day-to-day relative matters... the other handles the grander scheme of things.

Thus, this said... The only "surpassing" is that ..ultimately, the Profound truth DOES outweigh the relative... as the relative truth is... well.. "relative".

Thus.. I am all for "Earth Religion".."Traditonal Tribal Culture'..etc.etc... of course..

The point I am making is that... BEYOND all of that... is a higher level of understanding which is unconditioned by the relative matters..

This level of understanding always makes way and room for the relative matters..

However.. NEVER should the relative matters weigh more than the Profound Matters..

In that way.... I say : "In relative conditioned existence, you are a native person on the planet Earth."

However, if the Earth were to blow up and ALL mankind dead...

... then what?

That would then be dealing with more profound matters, such as the nature of spirit,etc.etc.

So, I do not disagree with you on what you said, but I am suggesting that there is a higher more profound level of understanding that I am asking you to consider.
and just what leads you to believe that Lakota spirituality is not Relative and Profound? For me it is both!!
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Old 07-08-2009, 04:04 AM   #159
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Laughing - Yes... any culture has the right to make any CLAIM they want..

They do not have to right to bring about suffering upon themselves or others because of those claims..

Muslim Extemest DO NOT have the right to kill in the name of Allah..
... Catholic Priest DO NOT have the right to help the eradication of Native peoples...
... AIM DOES NOT have the right to commit actions in the name of "all Native peoples"...

..etc.etc.etc..

They can make any CLAIM they want.. but they do not have the right to IMPOSE such a claim onto others via the passage of laws, the enactment of war,etc.etc... especially if it brings about the suffering of those persons whom the claim is being imposed upon.

Furthermore..

Any culture can CLAIM anything it wants--- however, the simple act of believing and/or claiming does not make the claim valid.

Simply wanting to believe that your people did not come from Asia does not disprove the truth of an Asian origin NOR does it magically change history, such as in the statement :

"Well, originally we did come from Asia.. but we all gathered at the cultural center, closed our eyes and held hands... and wished really hard that history changed.. and now we don't come from Asia, we are from Minnesota the whole time."

So.. yea.. people can believe whatever they want----

-- it doesn't make their beliefs valid nor does it give them right or permission to inact those beliefs on those who 1.) Do not want to believe (as in Catholic Priest with their NDN schools and forced conversions) or 2.) brings about suffering on those who believe (brainwashing young kids into believing non-acurate ideologies and then they suffer and suffer because of it--- such as Pan-Indianist forcing the young kids on the rez to suffer because they refuse them their REAL culture)

And finally.. time for the real kicker :

If you actually knew your tribe's origins, language, and religion... the one BEFORE the christian and pan-indian influence...
... then you would not need to hide behind the "beliefs"..

.. .because as always...

... the REFERENCE section is much more profound than the FICTION section
there is recent arciological proof that Laughing Water is correct, do not believe everything you read in books!
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Old 07-08-2009, 04:06 AM   #160
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White people sure do write a lot!!!
yup
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