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Old 12-21-2007, 01:42 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by auntiebeb View Post
I mean no harm to any one. I would be proud to stand up and say I was an indian and I would hope that my daughter could do that and know for a fact that it was the truth. I understand that in this world at one time it was hard to stand up and let it be be known who you where. Now there are people out there who think it is cool to be a part of the indian nation. They have not a clue. If anyone would have any information on Grover Cleveland Hilderbrand (Hildebrand) from NC I would be interestered. Thanks.

I have heard of the Hildebrand name, but don't know any of the first names or descendants. However, what I can tell you is start looking on the net and contacting county record offices to find out, depending on what years he was living and where, the records of NC are really good.
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Old 12-21-2007, 02:21 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Darkseid View Post
Well just give them the swath test to see if they hold any Cherokee or Native American genes and then from there you can classify them as you wish if they really want to become part of Native American society.

It is my belief that if someone is part Cherokee, Fox, Sauk, or whatever that they should be given the right to rejoin the clan or tribe of their ancestors if they really want to do so. It is their own free choice just as we already acknowledge people such a free choice in doing just about anything. What should stop those that hold such genes?
I just saw this post and didn't realize what you had said. The DNA test's have been mentioned on two other threads and research info has been posted for anyone who wishes to look it up. But I will give you a little info here too. DNA is NOT 100% in the way of ancestry and the labs themselves will tell you that, so to totally go by that would be short changing yourself and your ancestors. If you would like to see what has been posted it is in the "Mowa Choctaw" thread and the thread "Fake tribes, we are too Real" (that's not the exact name, I forgot the whole thing, but that's where it started and the Mowa is where it ended) and yes, I have done alot of research on this subject and have spoken with a genetic doctor about these tests and the info on them. And I did list research sites.
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Old 12-21-2007, 12:59 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by auntiebeb View Post
I mean no harm to any one. I would be proud to stand up and say I was an indian
That's Amerindian, Native American, or Turtle Islander as the case maybe with North America termed as Turtle Island by most Native Americans.

Indians are people that live in India, that is why they are known as Indians.

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and I would hope that my daughter could do that and know for a fact that it was the truth. I understand that in this world at one time it was hard to stand up and let it be be known who you where. Now there are people out there who think it is cool to be a part of the indian nation.
Stop using the wrong word for the wrong people. I find the word Indian being used to describe the original people of North America to be insulting. Try something else, please...
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Old 12-21-2007, 01:29 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Darkseid View Post
That's Amerindian, Native American, or Turtle Islander as the case maybe with North America termed as Turtle Island by most Native Americans.

Indians are people that live in India, that is why they are known as Indians.



Stop using the wrong word for the wrong people. I find the word Indian being used to describe the original people of North America to be insulting. Try something else, please...

Excuse me, but that is your feeling on the subject, not everyone's. You are entitled to your opinion--but not to force it on other's. The reason that I am saying this is: A 70 year old Elder woman from the Res in Cherokee, NC told me once "Honey, I am Indian. That's what and who I am and that's what I know." Now, if that's what she calls herself, then that's the way it is for some, not all.
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Old 12-21-2007, 02:41 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by timmy tiger View Post
Excuse me, but that is your feeling on the subject, not everyone's.
Don't force your beliefs onto me, man. I believe linguistic correctness is key for the Native people. You might disagree, because you are too use to that word or maybe you just like being called Indian. But as someone who likes linguistic correctness, I find it to be as insulting as a Native Australian being called an Anglo, just because he lived in Australia, an Anglo or English dominated land. I could say the same thing about Kurds being called Turks or Arabs, because they live in land dominated either by Turks or Arabs. Either these cases will absolutely insult these people and even though we do not live in a land dominated by Indians, it is indeed most insulting to call yourself a Hindu or to imply that these two people are one in the same.





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You are entitled to your opinion.
There is a difference between an opinion and a statement of fact. The term Indian being used to define people of North America is linguistic incorrectness. The term implies people from India. We are not Indians. We are Turtle Islanders. Stop insulting your ancestors by using that whiteman's term. It is insulting enough for the hindu people and our ancestors already as it is insulting for Japanese man to be called Chinese, simply the whiteman is stupid enough not to realize that not everyone in East Asia is Chinese. LOL!

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but not to force it on other's.
I am not forcing anything onto that person. I simply made a request, unless you don't know the word, "please" means.


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The reason that I am saying this is: A 70 year old Elder woman from the Res in Cherokee, NC told me once "Honey, I am Indian. That's what and who I am and that's what I know."
Well I know you guys like show sympathy towards women regardlessly, but I think we need to stick with rationality a little more.

After all, the ancestors of the Cherokee people or at least one of them was a highly advance society that run on logic, literally. They were secular, nearly athiestic people that went on everything by what they could measure and not by some sort of empathetic or sympathetic societal manner.

By the way I'm an unconformist, so telling me to conform is rather against my ways.

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Now, if that's what she calls herself, then that's the way it is for some, not all.
Should a black man call himself white just for the heck of it? Should a white man call himself black just for the heck of it.

You open a can of worms by allowing people to say or do whatever they want.

Also if she has the right to call herself an Indian then so do people you claim have no right to do so. Because to me they have the right as long as it is in their genes to identify themselves as Native Americans. And... a Native American does not have the right to call him or herself an native of India, which is what the word, Indian means, pal.

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Originally Posted by timmy tiger View Post
If you can prove it through the rolls, it can be done. The EBC has a blood quantium ruling and if you meet their requirements then there is no problem. But the CNO has no blood quantium requirements, but they do require that your ancestor to have been on the Dawes Roll to qualify, as I understand it. Many of these people who are in the groups listed above can NOT link themselves to the Cherokee, either way, through their ancstors. They find a name (usually just a last name) and run with it and make up a history as they go that didn't exist prior to them finding that one last name. In order to really know, you have to first find your ancestor's name (full name and siblings and parents names help), then you go to the Rolls and look for the name there. That's where most people end their search, they find a last name and match the last name only to the rolls and poof instant Cherokee. That's really not where it ends, that's just the begining, really. As I stated above many of these names are European descendants and only one married an Indian person (NOT just the Cherokee's) and that's how the name came to be associated with the Indian people. Now, from finding a FIRST and LAST name on the rolls, then you need to go and look at the actual roll information---and it IS out there, the library in Cherokee, NC has all of them and they list the age of the person, many times their children and parents and even in some cases the siblings (depending on the year of the Roll). Many times people will say that there isn't enough information, this is incorrect. There is a book that only lists the names and Roll numbers for the Rolls and that is the one that most people go by, well there is much more info available all you have to do is look.
I am already aware of this stupid and prejudice law. As soon as I become president, this law will become no more, simplified to such a degree that nearly everyone who has any Native genes at all could claim native ancestory and join their tribe at their own request. That I believe is much more humane that this piece of garbage.

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Old 12-21-2007, 03:34 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Darkseid View Post
Don't force your beliefs onto me, man. I believe linguistic correctness is key for the Native people. You might disagree, because you are too use to that word or maybe you just like being called Indian. But as someone who likes linguistic correctness, I find it to be as insulting as a Native Australian being called an Anglo, just because he lived in Australia, an Anglo or English dominated land. I could say the same thing about Kurds being called Turks or Arabs, because they live in land dominated either by Turks or Arabs. Either these cases will absolutely insult these people and even though we do not live in a land dominated by Indians, it is indeed most insulting to call yourself a Hindu or to imply that these two people are one in the same.







There is a difference between an opinion and a statement of fact. The term Indian being used to define people of North America is linguistic incorrectness. The term implies people from India. We are not Indians. We are Turtle Islanders. Stop insulting your ancestors by using that whiteman's term. It is insulting enough for the hindu people and our ancestors already as it is insulting for Japanese man to be called Chinese, simply the whiteman is stupid enough not to realize that not everyone in East Asia is Chinese. LOL!



I am not forcing anything onto that person. I simply made a request, unless you don't know the word, "please" means.




Well I know you guys like show sympathy towards women regardlessly, but I think we need to stick with rationality a little more.

After all, the ancestors of the Cherokee people or at least one of them was a highly advance society that run on logic, literally. They were secular, nearly athiestic people that went on everything by what they could measure and not by some sort of empathetic or sympathetic societal manner.

By the way I'm an unconformist, so telling me to conform is rather against my ways.



Should a black man call himself white just for the heck of it? Should a white man call himself black just for the heck of it.

You open a can of worms by allowing people to say or do whatever they want.

Also if she has the right to call herself an Indian then so do people you claim have no right to do so. Because to me they have the right as long as it is in their genes to identify themselves as Native Americans. And... a Native American does not have the right to call him or herself an native of India, which is what the word, Indian means, pal.



I am already aware of this stupid and prejudice law. As soon as I become president, this law will become no more, simplified to such a degree that nearly everyone who has any Native genes at all could claim native ancestory and join their tribe at their own request. That I believe is much more humane that this piece of garbage.

Wow, you just totally showed your ignorance here. I'm a woman, not a man. And your request may have been that to you, but you made that of another who may not feel that way, I read it that you were insulting and making a demand based on YOUR opinion.

As for that "law" it is the Cherokee By-laws for now, not the gov. Each tribe has their own rules and regs and as long as that it what they want, then that is the way that it is. I could say alot more, but I'm not going to waiste my time. You already are so much smarter then us poor folks, at least that is the way you came across to me with this last post of yours. I will no longer waist time on someone who already went against their own words (your first post) I shared something with you about a relative of mine from the Res, well I'm done with that. Must be nice to try to save the world to your own standards. I'd rather just help the people who need it.

President? You mean "DICTATOR" don't you? After all you are talking about demanding that the Tribes base their enrollement requirements based on YOUR opinions and no necessarily that of the Tribe. There goes any chance of Sovereinty (what little there may be will be totally gone if you get into office). Besides, you HAVE to be elected first.

A "NON-CONFORMIST" wow, you proved that wrong when you mis-took my gender based solely on my screen name, try it with someone else.

If the line is there, the people of the Tribe DO know it. It's about connections and they do exist. A little piece of paper doesn't mean more or less a connection to the people. But just saying so---doesn't make it so when there are all these people going around saying that they are "Healer's" and "Medicine" people and hurting innocent people out there who don't know any better.

Linguistics--Really? It's a "Swab" test not a "Swath" test and they are not accurate for ancestry. Look into them yourself. It's a "Possibility" or even a "Probability", but in no way is it a 100% guarantee and the labs do tell you this themselves. The only way--is still genealogy.

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Old 12-21-2007, 04:36 PM   #47
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hurt

You all can be very hurtful to us that can't prove our heritage. I have pictures of my relative, oral tradition passed down, etc. But we are not on the Dawe's roll, so I am not a true Cherokee? Even though I have never in my life wanted to be anything but?

I hear so much about tribes and families and peaceful ways. I hear other nations (Sioux, Creek, etc) talk about "you are what you believe you are in your heart" and how Creator made us all and loves us all and blood "quantum" doesn't matter. And yet, when some of us try to come to learn of our ancestral ways, we are shunned because we don't have a document from a United States Federal government, which, by the way, wasn't exactly friendly to ya' all before. Oh, and they weren't what you would call "exacting" in their methodology of figuring out who was "allowed" on the Dawes roll. How about the people that refused to sign because they didn't want to be known as Indian and to have to survive the racism? Or those that signed, but really didn't have blood relations, just lived with the Cherokee.

So, what would you suggest that someone who wants to live close to Creator, close to the earth, close to her ancestry, and close to her heart do, when she is spoken out against by every "full blood" or "high quantum" Cherokee? Oh, I would that I had been born into a more accepting tribe.

No need to respond, I'll never return here to see your responses, I just wanted to put my two cents in there. I know none of you care what little ol me thinks... and I don't care what you think. Just wanted to share my point of view...

I'm heading over to the Sioux tribe now. I hear they are looking for some honest, loving, passionate, smart, capable people to adopt.

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Mayche---seriously, that's what she was telling me and there are many other's out there just like her.

NOA--I liked your song. It was very true.LOL
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Old 12-22-2007, 12:35 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by rottzilla View Post
You all can be very hurtful to us that can't prove our heritage. I have pictures of my relative, oral tradition passed down, etc. But we are not on the Dawe's roll, so I am not a true Cherokee? Even though I have never in my life wanted to be anything but?

I hear so much about tribes and families and peaceful ways. I hear other nations (Sioux, Creek, etc) talk about "you are what you believe you are in your heart" and how Creator made us all and loves us all and blood "quantum" doesn't matter. And yet, when some of us try to come to learn of our ancestral ways, we are shunned because we don't have a document from a United States Federal government, which, by the way, wasn't exactly friendly to ya' all before. Oh, and they weren't what you would call "exacting" in their methodology of figuring out who was "allowed" on the Dawes roll. How about the people that refused to sign because they didn't want to be known as Indian and to have to survive the racism? Or those that signed, but really didn't have blood relations, just lived with the Cherokee.

So, what would you suggest that someone who wants to live close to Creator, close to the earth, close to her ancestry, and close to her heart do, when she is spoken out against by every "full blood" or "high quantum" Cherokee? Oh, I would that I had been born into a more accepting tribe.

No need to respond, I'll never return here to see your responses, I just wanted to put my two cents in there. I know none of you care what little ol me thinks... and I don't care what you think. Just wanted to share my point of view...

I'm heading over to the Sioux tribe now. I hear they are looking for some honest, loving, passionate, smart, capable people to adopt.
What the hell is this all about???


I might head over to the Sioux tribe too! I'm honest, loving, passionate, smart and capable! Which band are you going to visit?
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Why must I feel like that..why must I chase the cat?


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Old 12-22-2007, 02:37 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Joe's Dad View Post
What the hell is this all about???


I might head over to the Sioux tribe too! I'm honest, loving, passionate, smart and capable! Which band are you going to visit?
Nice talking about your Mulese traits, eh? You might not be aware of this, but long ago there existed a civilization called Mu. There is no documentation of this civilization, because existed well before there was any writing in the more modern era, although there was writing back then it was pretty much destroyed or lost forever. Mu was one of three glorious civilizations that existed and each corresponded to an ocean as these people were seafarers back in the day. This of course ended by the great war that ravaged all three countries. Their people abandoned their ruined cities that were completely obliterated. The people of Mu moved Northeastwards into Beringia and Southeast into North America. Your people are one of many who descended from this great civilization. However it is quite unfortunate that nearly everything about these people became lost over time and the complete devastation from the war it self.

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You all can be very hurtful to us that can't prove our heritage.
Dude I was saying that as long as you have the genes, you have the heritage. How can one deny someone of being Cherokee if they are part Cherokee and have a Cherokee ancestor? When you deny someone of their heritage when they have cherokee genes and a cherokee ancestor, you deny that ancestor of being cherokee and as well as his or her own people of being Cherokee, which might as well make us all non-Cherokees, wiping out the very existence of what is Cherokee.

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I have pictures of my relative, oral tradition passed down, etc. But we are not on the Dawe's roll, so I am not a true Cherokee? Even though I have never in my life wanted to be anything but?
Dude as long as you have the genes, you are Cherokee. Jesus.

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I hear so much about tribes and families and peaceful ways. I hear other nations (Sioux, Creek, etc) talk about "you are what you believe you are in your heart" and how Creator made us all and loves us all and blood "quantum" doesn't matter.
Of course that crappy prejudice blood quantum law doesn't matter. It is a piece of **** that I will soon abolish once I have become president. I'll see to it even I should become a dictator to enforcively abolish it. All needless prejudice shall be abolish, mark my words.

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And yet, when some of us try to come to learn of our ancestral ways, we are shunned because we don't have a document from a United States Federal government, which, by the way, wasn't exactly friendly to ya' all before.
Curse that Jackson. Well I hear ya, I'd say as long as you have the genese, that is all that matters. Hey you could compare your genes with my own and see if there is a match. I'm not pure Cherokee, but I do have the distinctive devilishly handsome Cherokee cheeks and my Great Grandma was from West North Carolina in one of the untouched Cherokee settlements thanks to us being part of the Priestly White Class rather than the Warrior Red Class.

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Originally Posted by timmy tiger View Post
Wow, you just totally showed your ignorance here. I'm a woman, not a man. And your request may have been that to you, but you made that of another who may not feel that way, I read it that you were insulting and making a demand based on YOUR opinion.

As for that "law" it is the Cherokee By-laws for now, not the gov. Each tribe has their own rules and regs and as long as that it what they want, then that is the way that it is. I could say alot more, but I'm not going to waiste my time. You already are so much smarter then us poor folks, at least that is the way you came across to me with this last post of yours. I will no longer waist time on someone who already went against their own words (your first post) I shared something with you about a relative of mine from the Res, well I'm done with that. Must be nice to try to save the world to your own standards. I'd rather just help the people who need it.

President? You mean "DICTATOR" don't you? After all you are talking about demanding that the Tribes base their enrollement requirements based on YOUR opinions and no necessarily that of the Tribe. There goes any chance of Sovereinty (what little there may be will be totally gone if you get into office). Besides, you HAVE to be elected first.

A "NON-CONFORMIST" wow, you proved that wrong when you mis-took my gender based solely on my screen name, try it with someone else.

If the line is there, the people of the Tribe DO know it. It's about connections and they do exist. A little piece of paper doesn't mean more or less a connection to the people. But just saying so---doesn't make it so when there are all these people going around saying that they are "Healer's" and "Medicine" people and hurting innocent people out there who don't know any better.

Linguistics--Really? It's a "Swab" test not a "Swath" test and they are not accurate for ancestry. Look into them yourself. It's a "Possibility" or even a "Probability", but in no way is it a 100% guarantee and the labs do tell you this themselves. The only way--is still genealogy.
What's the name of a fruit that is white inside and red outslide, oh yeah an apple. That's what you are a red apple.

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Old 12-22-2007, 09:44 AM   #50
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Wow where have I been?
All these words about what we call ourselfs
It depends on what language you are speaking in now does it not???
In Cherokee we do not call ourselfs INDIAN
In English we are called Cherokee or all the other tribal names one might be

Yes we were called Indian but in the 1960's we asked to be called Natve American. But that has problems also, because there all lots of people born here that can say that now!
How about 1st Nation like the Canadians???

Actually it dont matter one bit what they call us!
My Father who is Fullblood said we have many names becasue we are many Peoples
He prefered NDN
of the Tribe Of Cherokees of Oklahoma
THE PEOPLE in our language
but then not alot of whites speak our language now do they???

Politically Correctness is all around
White = Caucasion
Indian = Native American
Oriental = Asian
Black = African American

Merry Christmas = Happy Holiday

On and on and so forth

Then there is Title VII
dont get me started about that one


As for those that had ancestors that hid out or were not on the rolls for what ever reason

We all have to live with the mistakes of our Ancestors
Mine are on the rolls but in the 1920's they sold off the mineral rights to thousands of acres instead of leasing it
Can't go back and change that.

They made the descision based on the information they had at that time
My kinfolk settled in the Lost City area in the 1820's and have been there everysince
It was by sheer luck that the rest of the tribe happened to show up in the 1830's

Go and physically visit the home in Oklahoma or North Carolina you might be surprised what you find...

After all there are over 76,000 of us that still live where were settled in Oklahoma!!!
Go to a stomp dance or visit a Council meeting
Just do it
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Old 12-22-2007, 03:43 PM   #51
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Dude as long as you have the genes, you are Cherokee. Jesus.



Of course that crappy prejudice blood quantum law doesn't matter. It is a piece of **** that I will soon abolish once I have become president. I'll see to it even I should become a dictator to enforcively abolish it. All needless prejudice shall be abolish, mark my words.
You are right, if you have Cherokee heritage, then you have Cherokee heritage, just like if you have (insert tribe or nationality here), then you have that heritage. You are confusing, however, having heritage and being a member of a sovereign tribal nation. You can be part Cherokee and not be a tribal member. Being a tribal member is a political identity, because tribal members are dual citizens of their tribe and of the US or Canada. You mentioned you are part Polish. Are you a Polish citizen? Do you have a Polish passport? Probably not. That means you are an American with Polish heritage, just like you have Cherokee heritage...but you're not a Cherokee tribal member.

This has nothing to do with blood quantum. You seem to be caught up on blood quantum and angry at its application by the US Federal gov't. But tribes today are able to determine their own tribal citizenship requirements. If a tribe uses blood quantum (and the Cherokee Nation of OK does not, as has been pointed out), then that has nothing to do with the federal gov't. If you were President some day, you couldn't change tribal membership requirements using blood quantum any more than you could change Polish citizenship requirements.

I understand that you have intentions to help tribes. First, you need to understand this very basic distinction between personal heritage and tribal membership.
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Old 12-22-2007, 06:24 PM   #52
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Thank you Josiah and Eap, you both made the same points that I was trying to make. I don't care about a name as much as how a person carries themselves and behaves towards other's.

I won't hide my ancestry for political or personal gain and won't deal with someone who openly says that they will. So thank you both.

I don't care how someone refers to me, I'm just me.

Well, Rottzilla, that is your choice to make that decision, but you obviously didn't ask to find out where that statement came from and just assumed based on (I really don't know). But the fact of the matter is that I am always encouraging other's to find their ancestors (even those who weren't on the Rolls) and have helped many myself. So, I'm affraid that a few words on a screen, just don't make it necessarily what you think. I do wish you the best in your future.
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Old 12-22-2007, 09:17 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Josiah View Post
Wow where have I been?
All these words about what we call ourselfs
It depends on what language you are speaking in now does it not???
In Cherokee we do not call ourselfs INDIAN
In English we are called Cherokee or all the other tribal names one might be
I know that dude, but we do refer to North America as Turtle Island, translatable wise. And since nearly every native american refers to North America as Turtle Island, we can safely refer to ourselves under a common identity as Turtle Islanders. It would be the only non-white identity we could share together as brothers amongst Cherokees and non-Cherokees like the Fox, Lakotas, and Massachusetts.

Having the term in English is a means to insure linguistic understanding between the many tribes, after all not everyone speaks Cherokee.



Quote:
Yes we were called Indian but in the 1960's we asked to be called Natve American.
Actually we were called Indians back before 1960's. The term derived from Columbus's mistake when he landed in the Caribbean instead of the West Indies. Since then nearly everyone in North and South American arboriginal has been called Indian by the whiteman and often enough the I curse word that comes from the word Indian that we know too well. It like how the N word comes from the Spanish word for black that was used to speak of black people.

Quote:
But that has problems also, because there all lots of people born here that can say that now!
How about 1st Nation like the Canadians???
The Canadians are just being stupid like always. We know very well we are not the first nations, how that can even be a term to call someone. That is a good synonym to speak of our tribes, but not of our people.

Quote:
Actually it dont matter one bit what they call us!
My Father who is Fullblood said we have many names becasue we are many Peoples
He prefered NDN
of the Tribe Of Cherokees of Oklahoma
THE PEOPLE in our language
but then not alot of whites speak our language now do they???
I have a question are you a descendent of the Red Class or the White Class. You see in Cherokee society you have two or possibly more distinctive classes. You have the Red Class which are the warriors and then you the White Class which are the priests. I'm from the White Class.

Quote:
Politically Correctness is all around
White = Caucasion
Indian = Native American
Oriental = Asian
Black = African American
Oh that's bull.

Caucassian is a term implying people from the Caucasus Mountains. Indo-Europeans are not Caucassians, they are just Eurasiatic or Caspien as it is pointed out that their origin might be North of the Caspien Sea.

As for Oriental, the term is also implied to refer to South America as it is used to imply East Asia.

Also Indians, Persians, Arabs, Turks, Kurds, and Turkmen are not Oriental based on the Asiantic sense of mind. So you cannot call these people by that term, because you are calling them Chinese. And by god, you do not want to call a muslim or an Indian chinese. They hate the Chinese even more so than any Native American has ever hated white people. And it is very easy to understand why, China is an anti-theistic nation, which means Islam is greatly persecuted over there. As for Indians, they are odds with the Chinese in terms of territorial and economic control. They also hate the Chinese for beating them in a war for control of Kashmir.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eap7 View Post
You are right, if you have Cherokee heritage, then you have Cherokee heritage, just like if you have (insert tribe or nationality here), then you have that heritage.
That is exactly my point. Why should someone who is part Cherokee be denied of being part Cherokee? It just doesn't make any sense.

Quote:
You are confusing, however, having heritage and being a member of a sovereign tribal nation.
Well what I am saying is that if they wish to become part of a tribal nation, then they should have the right to do so. You could like the reconstruction era of how the South got around the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments by putting some sort of restrictions or something. Maybe you have to live under reservation lands or with a tribal member for so long, like you do in Islam with a muslim in order to become a muslim, to become part of that tribe.

You may also establish class positions to distinquish certain people in the tribe like you have Native Tribesmen (those born into the tribe with Native blood), Returning Tribesmen (those not born into the tribe, but hold Native Blood), Unoriginal Tribesmen (those born into the tribe that hold no Native blood), Newcomer Tribesmen (those not born into the tribe that don't hold any Native blood), and Tribal Freedmen (those of African descent that hold no Native blood, otherwise they would be labelled Native or Returning Tribesmen, that were once slaves of Tribesmen).

You could place certain restrictions which could be socially tested as long as they are not too restrictive. Maybe making it more honorable to a Native Tribesman than it is to be a non-Native Tribesman.

That you need to pass a test to become a citizen of the tribe if you are a non-Native tribesman and perhaps live with so-and-so of the tribe for so-and-so years to achieve citizenship of the tribe with you a non-blood relative of the tribe. Something like that.

You will have to work with me on how to approach it.

Quote:
You can be part Cherokee and not be a tribal member.
Shouldn't that be a personal choice. Say one decides to leave the United States and go to Japan to become a citizen there and revoke their citizenship here. Isn't that by their own choice to do such? Shouldn't the same be considered here?

Quote:
Being a tribal member is a political identity, because tribal members are dual citizens of their tribe and of the US or Canada. You mentioned you are part Polish. Are you a Polish citizen?
No the Polish descent I come from might be Silesian or something else which may revoke of actually being Polish. Nevertheless my ancestors of Polish descent came over here while Poland was part of Russia and Germany.

Quote:
That means you are an American with Polish heritage, just like you have Cherokee heritage...but you're not a Cherokee tribal member.
There is a difference of what you are speaking about. Poland isn't a part of the United States. Cherokee land is a part of the United States. We don't consider it as such, but because such land was not contest before it was claimed by France and Britain prior to becoming a part of the United States after the French and Indian War and the Revolutionary War we cannot contest on what we did not do. Of course it also the whiteman's fault for not realizing that Cherokee people lived on their land in much of the same respect as a white man and shouldn't be discriminated against just because he or she isn't white. But that is besides the point. The point is that we never did contest against British claims, so when America won over this land from Britain, there would have been no contest on what they could do with it. Honestly, we shouldn't have abandoned our Hopewell civilization just to become a bunch of mountaineers living in a continuous Dark Age. Our people once ruled over much of the North American continent very much until other tribes had moved in from the West and the South and the North. If we still hold onto this civilization, it would have blossomed and be a force for Europeans to reckon with.

Quote:
If you were President some day, you couldn't change tribal membership requirements using blood quantum any more than you could change Polish citizenship requirements.
LOL! Actually you could it is all a matter of how you excersize your power and affiliation.

Quote:
I understand that you have intentions to help tribes. First, you need to understand this very basic distinction between personal heritage and tribal membership.
I do know the difference. I never said they should automatically become members of a tribe. I'm just saying that if one should hold status of being part Cherokee then he or she should have the right to obtain tribal citizenship. That is what I'm saying.

Also what is contesting one from establishing his or her own tribe?

Last edited by Darkseid; 12-22-2007 at 10:01 PM..
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Old 12-23-2007, 11:49 AM   #54
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Dude...you need to put the pipe down...and buy your mushrooms in the grocery store!!!
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Old 12-23-2007, 11:53 AM   #55
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Dude...you need to put the pipe down...and buy your mushrooms in the grocery store!!!
ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 12-23-2007, 12:31 PM   #56
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Darkseid, you are long winded and do a lot of talking in circles. You'd make a great government puppet. Everyone knows the President doesn't run the country, he's just the clown behind the desk in the white house that everyone likes to blame when things go wrong. The senate, congress, house of repreps run the country.

And just because you can look things up on the internet or take a few history classes and recite crap that no one really cares about, doesn't make you smart.
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Old 12-23-2007, 09:17 PM   #57
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What the F*ck is a Turtle Islander?

Cherokee creation story says that Water Beetle brought mud from the bottom and created earth
Nothing about a Turtle...


My head hurts following your Twisted Logic

Caught in a Postive and Negative Feedback Loop
Never saw that before

Wow!
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Old 12-24-2007, 02:26 AM   #58
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Darkseid i'm kinda wondering if your just stiring the **** to see how bad ya can get it to stink ..... are ya for real with this crap ?
An then if ya are i feal like giving ya a nickle an telling ya ...
Go talk to Lucy ! LOL
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Old 12-24-2007, 05:40 AM   #59
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Anyone feel his posts have a familiar ring to them? Kinda reminds me of the second coming of someone who shall remain nameless but was hated just the same.
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Old 12-24-2007, 09:39 AM   #60
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Angry wannabes

why are you so obsessed with what others may or may not be?look at yourself!
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