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Old 12-24-2007, 10:56 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Mato Winyan View Post
Anyone feel his posts have a familiar ring to them? Kinda reminds me of the second coming of someone who shall remain nameless but was hated just the same.
No kidding, eh?
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Old 12-24-2007, 11:02 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mato Winyan View Post
Anyone feel his posts have a familiar ring to them? Kinda reminds me of the second coming of someone who shall remain nameless but was hated just the same.
Are you talking about culture vs quantum?LOL
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Old 12-24-2007, 11:06 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by silverbluewolf View Post
why are you so obsessed with what others may or may not be?look at yourself!

There is pro and there is con here. Which are you addressing?

As Granny would say..."Are you fer me...or agin me?"
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Old 12-24-2007, 11:35 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mato Winyan View Post
Anyone feel his posts have a familiar ring to them? Kinda reminds me of the second coming of someone who shall remain nameless but was hated just the same.
LOL, wow did you hite that one.
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Old 12-30-2007, 10:53 AM   #65
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That's Amerindian, Native American, or Turtle Islander as the case maybe with North America termed as Turtle Island by most Native Americans
Maybe that's most of the ones you know, but speak for yourself. My mother, grandmother, aunties and uncles called themselves Indian, or N'De. We are the people of White Painted Woman. Each tribe has their own cultural identity. Not everyone comes from Turtle Island. My mother's people came from the Texas plains.

As far as Native American is concerned, a person who was born in the continents of America can claim to be a native of America. The trouble we run into, even amongst ourselves, is the need to stuff people from hundreds of nations into one neat category. It can't be done.
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Old 01-01-2008, 03:28 PM   #66
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Turtle Island was originally a term used by the Haudenosaunee (iroquois) and it's spread over the last few decades. Mainly because it's used as a term to describe what it now known as America, the land itself and stems from our creation story that the land was formed on the back of a giant turtle. I guess some are sayign turtle islanders to describe indian or native american as a whole.... because they don't like the latter terms I mentioned.
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Old 01-01-2008, 04:05 PM   #67
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I'm using these quotes but not directing my comments at anyone in particular nor do I have any individual(s) in mind, only generalizing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rottzilla
You all can be very hurtful to us that can't prove our heritage.
Quote:
Dude I was saying that as long as you have the genes, you have the heritage. How can one deny someone of being Cherokee if they are part Cherokee and have a Cherokee ancestor? When you deny someone of their heritage when they have cherokee genes and a cherokee ancestor, you deny that ancestor of being cherokee and as well as his or her own people of being Cherokee, which might as well make us all non-Cherokees, wiping out the very existence of what is Cherokee.
Im not that kind. I feel you should have some kind of ties to the people if you want to claim to be one of them. Who's recognition is it that makes you who you are? Federal or the Nation? If my own people did'nt recognize me then would I really be a tuscarora or someone with tuscarora ancestry?

I can acknowledge the blood and see someone as one of the disenfranchised but really... how do we know and I mean really know if you are what you say you are? A few pictures of some people in old photos who were dark and look indian or possibly indian is'nt proof of who you are.. or what tribe you claim. And some folks even demand to be acknowledged as when they can't prove anything but "oral tradition".

(Speaking of oral tradition... do you know what I've found out about oral tradition? Most geneological "oral tradition" is false. It was made up sometime back to cover up something else because one thing was worse than the other in opinion back then. )

Now how would you feel if some stranger walks up to your house and demands to be known as a part of your family and community, and you don't know this person from Adam? But they have a handful of photos of people with "surnames" (none of which tie into yours a far as you can tell), and dark features and they claim to worship the same God in the same way but they have never gone to your church, or they tell you they know they are related because they have scooped teeth or longer toes on the right foot.. or a mole on the back of their ear..........

....no seriously, I've had people try to say that's how they know they are "indian". And after you hear a few hundred or more people give you these same arguments and excuses and offer it as proof... even the most accepting and patient of people lose it and become less tolerant.

And how many times have we heard of the famous ancestor who hid their real identity to keep from being persecuted? I just don't have sympathy for them, not when my ancestors did'nt bother to hide anything and took the persecution and survived being who they are. And I've even heard of whole communities of people who claim to be indian but hid that fact so they were'nt persecuted.... and I gotta say.. SAy WHAT???

A whole community doe'snt need to hide if everyone knows everyone else is.... right? It's ridiculous and I think half the people who spout alot of this crap have heard it elsewhere from someone else and thought it made some kind of sense to them so they use the same excuses. I just don't trust it anymore, and certainly would not be out to honor and ancestor that hid his/her true identity. Where's the honor in that?
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Old 01-01-2008, 08:01 PM   #68
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Dang...that cabin fever is getting to you!

Jusss kiddin. Good post.
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Old 01-01-2008, 08:44 PM   #69
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My elder told me that oral history is more reliable than papers as relates to Cherokee people. Having shared that, I must say that this thread, while occasionally entertaining, is very similar to the arguments that have been going on for years (yawn). The more I know, the less I am certain of anything.....food for thought for younguns who think they know somethin'.
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Old 01-01-2008, 10:50 PM   #70
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JD--you took the words out of my mouth. I thought it was a good post to and very accurate.

As someone who does do this very research that she is speaking of and has for many others, I can say for a fact that when she is speaking of family stories being incorrect----this is a 75% fact as far as I have seen. Not all is incorrect, but much of it is and if you don't look or don't find it, then how do you really know?

She's not speaking of tribal stories or stories of Elder's from a Tribe, she is speaking of simple family stories passed down the line. Kind of like the old game telephone where you start a story and by the time that it gets to the end, it is way away from what it was originally. Gee, if that can happen in a room in a matter of minutes. What do you think can happen after a couple of generations?
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Old 01-02-2008, 12:14 AM   #71
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Kudos to Black Bear, Timmy Tiger, and JD...so as not to be misunderstood, I do agree with the points raised by Black Bear. As a Cherokee descendant who was adopted out I have had to do a lot of genealogical digging and I have found examples where stories didn't pan out with the available records. Sometimes the records needed to establish certain facts are not readily available. I have run into a lot of people claiming Cherokee roots and after 17 years of research and experience I can filter them by the stories they tell (most of the time). It takes a lot of work to find the trail back to tribal life and there are no shortcuts. It helps a lot to have elder mentors and to know what is appropriate and what is not. There is a lot more to say about this subject but I'll try to restrain myself:)
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Old 01-02-2008, 01:32 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackbear View Post
I'm using these quotes but not directing my comments at anyone in particular nor do I have any individual(s) in mind, only generalizing.
-----------------------------------------------------------


Quote:
Originally Posted by rottzilla
You all can be very hurtful to us that can't prove our heritage.

Quote:
Dude I was saying that as long as you have the genes, you have the heritage. How can one deny someone of being Cherokee if they are part Cherokee and have a Cherokee ancestor? When you deny someone of their heritage when they have cherokee genes and a cherokee ancestor, you deny that ancestor of being cherokee and as well as his or her own people of being Cherokee, which might as well make us all non-Cherokees, wiping out the very existence of what is Cherokee.
-------------------------------------------------------

Im not that kind. I feel you should have some kind of ties to the people if you want to claim to be one of them. Who's recognition is it that makes you who you are? Federal or the Nation? If my own people did'nt recognize me then would I really be a tuscarora or someone with tuscarora ancestry?

I can acknowledge the blood and see someone as one of the disenfranchised but really... how do we know and I mean really know if you are what you say you are? A few pictures of some people in old photos who were dark and look indian or possibly indian is'nt proof of who you are.. or what tribe you claim. And some folks even demand to be acknowledged as when they can't prove anything but "oral tradition".

(Speaking of oral tradition... do you know what I've found out about oral tradition? Most geneological "oral tradition" is false. It was made up sometime back to cover up something else because one thing was worse than the other in opinion back then. )

Now how would you feel if some stranger walks up to your house and demands to be known as a part of your family and community, and you don't know this person from Adam? But they have a handful of photos of people with "surnames" (none of which tie into yours a far as you can tell), and dark features and they claim to worship the same God in the same way but they have never gone to your church, or they tell you they know they are related because they have scooped teeth or longer toes on the right foot.. or a mole on the back of their ear..........

....no seriously, I've had people try to say that's how they know they are "indian". And after you hear a few hundred or more people give you these same arguments and excuses and offer it as proof... even the most accepting and patient of people lose it and become less tolerant.

And how many times have we heard of the famous ancestor who hid their real identity to keep from being persecuted? I just don't have sympathy for them, not when my ancestors did'nt bother to hide anything and took the persecution and survived being who they are. And I've even heard of whole communities of people who claim to be indian but hid that fact so they were'nt persecuted.... and I gotta say.. SAy WHAT???

A whole community doe'snt need to hide if everyone knows everyone else is.... right? It's ridiculous and I think half the people who spout alot of this crap have heard it elsewhere from someone else and thought it made some kind of sense to them so they use the same excuses. I just don't trust it anymore, and certainly would not be out to honor and ancestor that hid his/her true identity. Where's the honor in that?



why don't these wannabe's with their fabricated histories, get what we are trying to say? pffft.. thanks BB good post!! :)
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Old 01-02-2008, 03:29 PM   #73
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[/SIZE][/B]


why don't these wannabe's with their fabricated histories, get what we are trying to say? pffft.. thanks BB good post!! :)


Kiowa... I think it's because they do'nt want to accept who they are. This has really become like a mental illness in this country. And many of those that stand out are narcissistic men who believe being indian brings them up to some kind of celebrity status of sorts, thus making them special or more special somehow than the truth. That's why you see them doing school demonstrations and dance exhibitions and story telling for public events.

And deep down it's almost like they actually loathe the real natives because they do'nt fit that standard that they themselves set themselves up for, so they not only become "indian" but become showey, dancing, story telling, native language speaking, arrogant indians who know everything and learn everything they can to become the "ultimate indian". So it's not always about the money....
believe it or not.

And we are seeing more and more of these types pop up... case in point, Charlie Smoke. And many of them even end up doing good for native communities or for our rights in standing up for them, but then it all goes out the window when someone finds out the truth and they are exposed for the liars they are.

And now we've got second and third generational wannabes who don't really know any better and because their mom or dad was seen by the media as "indian" that they now believe they are and try to " lead a new revolution". I talked about one of those a year ago in fact LOL! Oh and he's threatened me with lawsuit which does not scare me because he'd first have to prove he's who he is before his case could ever hold water and he just can't do it. Not only that but I think he KNOWs he's not indian at all since his mom is known as one of the biggest scam artists ever.

You know I don't blame anyone for wanting to identify even if they have only had one ancestor who married into the family line generations ago... but why do they have to become instant overnight super indians who think they know or act more or live more like an indian than fullbloods who were raised with it? Why do they have to become "spiritual" leaders for non natives or others with questionable ancestry? Why do they have to suddenly have ceremonies or period clothing to be the indians they claim to be? And why do they have to become "tribal experts" who feel they can represent people they have no modern connection to who can represent themselves just fine? Why can't they just be happy knowing what they know and making honest connections with people.
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Old 01-02-2008, 07:36 PM   #74
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You know I don't blame anyone for wanting to identify even if they have only had one ancestor who married into the family line generations ago... but why do they have to become instant overnight super indians who think they know or act more or live more like an indian than fullbloods who were raised with it? Why do they have to become "spiritual" leaders for non natives or others with questionable ancestry? Why do they have to suddenly have ceremonies or period clothing to be the indians they claim to be? And why do they have to become "tribal experts" who feel they can represent people they have no modern connection to who can represent themselves just fine? Why can't they just be happy knowing what they know and making honest connections with people.

cuz that would be too easy
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Old 01-05-2008, 06:22 PM   #75
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All this talk about these various groups brought an old heavy metal song to mind. So with great apologies to Bon Jovi...

To the tune of "You Give Love a Bad Name":

You claim you're an elder, a shaman, or chief.
You promise them membership, then give us grief.
You offer them sweats or an Indian name.
But you've got no bloodline to back up your claim.

Oh, you're a fantasy.
Oh, got no history.
Say what you will,
But I know what I see.

Chorus:
This isn't a tribe,
It's an Inc.
You can't sell a culture or identity.
You might fool some,
But you don't fool me.
You're just a friggin' wannabe!

The truth that I've learned can't be bought with a price.
Passed down by my fathers who paid with their lives.
Traditions unshaken with passage of time.
Not "Instant Indian" for $9.99.

Oh, got you on the run.
Oh, hunted down one by one.
We're not going to stop
'Til the battle is won.

Chorus:
So, put down your drum.
Remove your headdress, please.
Your dimestore feathers and jewelry.
Leave native ways to native folks like me.
We've got authentic genealogy.
Love the song!
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Old 01-05-2008, 06:34 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Blackbear View Post
I'm using these quotes but not directing my comments at anyone in particular nor do I have any individual(s) in mind, only generalizing.





Im not that kind. I feel you should have some kind of ties to the people if you want to claim to be one of them. Who's recognition is it that makes you who you are? Federal or the Nation? If my own people did'nt recognize me then would I really be a tuscarora or someone with tuscarora ancestry?

I can acknowledge the blood and see someone as one of the disenfranchised but really... how do we know and I mean really know if you are what you say you are? A few pictures of some people in old photos who were dark and look indian or possibly indian is'nt proof of who you are.. or what tribe you claim. And some folks even demand to be acknowledged as when they can't prove anything but "oral tradition".

(Speaking of oral tradition... do you know what I've found out about oral tradition? Most geneological "oral tradition" is false. It was made up sometime back to cover up something else because one thing was worse than the other in opinion back then. )

Now how would you feel if some stranger walks up to your house and demands to be known as a part of your family and community, and you don't know this person from Adam? But they have a handful of photos of people with "surnames" (none of which tie into yours a far as you can tell), and dark features and they claim to worship the same God in the same way but they have never gone to your church, or they tell you they know they are related because they have scooped teeth or longer toes on the right foot.. or a mole on the back of their ear..........

....no seriously, I've had people try to say that's how they know they are "indian". And after you hear a few hundred or more people give you these same arguments and excuses and offer it as proof... even the most accepting and patient of people lose it and become less tolerant.

And how many times have we heard of the famous ancestor who hid their real identity to keep from being persecuted? I just don't have sympathy for them, not when my ancestors did'nt bother to hide anything and took the persecution and survived being who they are. And I've even heard of whole communities of people who claim to be indian but hid that fact so they were'nt persecuted.... and I gotta say.. SAy WHAT???

A whole community doe'snt need to hide if everyone knows everyone else is.... right? It's ridiculous and I think half the people who spout alot of this crap have heard it elsewhere from someone else and thought it made some kind of sense to them so they use the same excuses. I just don't trust it anymore, and certainly would not be out to honor and ancestor that hid his/her true identity. Where's the honor in that?
Just can't understand why so many people wannabee... with folks that don't want to be bothered!
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Old 01-05-2008, 07:00 PM   #77
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I personally know about 5 self appointed Chiefs and tribes from North Carolina. I know you guys welcomed them with open arms!
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Old 01-07-2008, 06:48 PM   #78
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just a note, posted this is another thread thought it would fit here lol


This is one of the cancers that is eroding the American Indian. I use the groups I have around me as an example of how a group can become seen as "real" American Indians, looked to for wisdom. These groups distort what American Indians really are, and when they can they grab ahold of fundings earmarked for real American Indian tribes. The more of these groups allowed to exist, the less funding is around for the real tribes. The more watered down we become in the countries eyes , the less folks will be behind us in keeping our cultures alive. These fake Cherokee's are but an example of what is happening all over the U.S.
I could also point out we have a plastic shaman we fight against here who claims to be a Lakota medicine woman, I guess we shouldn't worry about her either, or maybe the fake Navajo spiritual leader we are currently fighting against here. This is not simply a Cherokee issue but an issue on our traditions and cultures that are being abused in the name of the almighty dollar.
There are many ways our traditions and cultures are being attacked. From these phony tribes to the Racial Insensitivity of Mascots. If you really don't see these things as attacks against American Indians as a whole , then maybe you need to stick your head back in the hole you pulled it out of.
Kiowakat, I can feel and understand your point here. From what I feel in my heart about the people that actually have an American Indian heritage but don't know much about it, they should talk with the Elders or other American Indian people that can help them learn before they run off and become instant chiefs and tribes. And I hate when people become instant or self-made shaman and medicine men/women. I've seen that happen in my neck of the woods too. But for the groups that have the best interest of American Indian People at heart, I sure would like to have them on my side when the "Great Change" gets here although it's already here. And as far as some people saying that their "Indian ancestors ran off and hid in caves," I think they might be talking about during the Trail of Tears, some of the Cherokee People in Western North Carolina ran into the hills and hid and the descendants of those people live in Cherokee now. At least I heard something on that order when I stayed on the Cherokee Reservation for a week. I also heard that during the Trail of Tears some of the mixed blood Cherokee that appeared to be white thought they were safe but the government sent them away too along with their slaves. At least that's what they said during the play that I attended called "Unto The Hills." I think I got the title right.
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Old 09-16-2009, 07:11 AM   #79
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Never thought there were so many. I have heard of maybe 2 here in Ga but not that many. WOW
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Old 09-18-2009, 12:24 AM   #80
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I did not know that there were that many Cherokee groups scattered all over North America including Alaska and Germany. They sound really like wannabe tribes and want to copy Cherokees tradition and the Powwow dancing. Most of them are whites, I assume that they are. I don't know what make them want to be recognized as their tribal land. They are weird and crazy. (I am scratching my head over this).
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