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Old 07-20-2006, 12:15 PM   #21
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Well, there's no doubt that there is a mixture of non-Indian blood there, but that really shouldn't matter as every tribe in the country has that now. Just as long as they still have ties to their historical tribe...that should be the only issue.

Ok, here's a very non-PC question, but one that bears discussing I feel: Do you guys think that the Lumbees have not been recognized over the years due to the fact that they don't typically look like what most people view as "looking Indian"?

When reading S.660 Lumbee Recognition Act I was shocked and amazed that they would give jurisdiction over many matters over to the State of North Carolina. I was hoping the tribe would have a land base established to have set into trust status over which the tribe itself would govern and have jurisdiction. Obviously, this isn't true and is disturbing to me as I don't like the idea of a state having any control over any federal tribe. This might be putting the cart before the horse as they still have a long way to go before this bill passes, but I hope the Lumbee's leadership didn't put this provision in there in the hopes of pacifying some politicians.
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Old 07-20-2006, 12:16 PM   #22
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my understanding is that there is a federal law stating that the Lumbee CANNOT go through the normal route and must go through Congress. Why the discrimination, Idon' know.

PS soryy this respnse is for #15

Last edited by GJJudd; 07-20-2006 at 12:19 PM..
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Old 07-20-2006, 12:40 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Singerdad
Well, there's no doubt that there is a mixture of non-Indian blood there, but that really shouldn't matter as every tribe in the country has that now. Just as long as they still have ties to their historical tribe...that should be the only issue.

Ok, here's a very non-PC question, but one that bears discussing I feel: Do you guys think that the Lumbees have not been recognized over the years due to the fact that they don't typically look like what most people view as "looking Indian"?

When reading S.660 Lumbee Recognition Act I was shocked and amazed that they would give jurisdiction over many matters over to the State of North Carolina. I was hoping the tribe would have a land base established to have set into trust status over which the tribe itself would govern and have jurisdiction. Obviously, this isn't true and is disturbing to me as I don't like the idea of a state having any control over any federal tribe. This might be putting the cart before the horse as they still have a long way to go before this bill passes, but I hope the Lumbee's leadership didn't put this provision in there in the hopes of pacifying some politicians.

all i know is there are thousands of lumbees that look like your 'stereotypical' indian - as far as the land, it's tricky when you have non-indian communities *ex: lumberton* within your homeland.....
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Old 07-25-2006, 08:31 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Singerdad
Well, there's no doubt that there is a mixture of non-Indian blood there, but that really shouldn't matter as every tribe in the country has that now. Just as long as they still have ties to their historical tribe...that should be the only issue.

Ok, here's a very non-PC question, but one that bears discussing I feel: Do you guys think that the Lumbees have not been recognized over the years due to the fact that they don't typically look like what most people view as "looking Indian"?

When reading S.660 Lumbee Recognition Act I was shocked and amazed that they would give jurisdiction over many matters over to the State of North Carolina. I was hoping the tribe would have a land base established to have set into trust status over which the tribe itself would govern and have jurisdiction. Obviously, this isn't true and is disturbing to me as I don't like the idea of a state having any control over any federal tribe. This might be putting the cart before the horse as they still have a long way to go before this bill passes, but I hope the Lumbee's leadership didn't put this provision in there in the hopes of pacifying some politicians.
Well I think that they being a mixture of tribes may be a reason they don't look like "sterotypical NDN". I know I've thought about this. Then I think does this really matter?
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Old 07-25-2006, 04:22 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GJJudd
my understanding is that there is a federal law stating that the Lumbee CANNOT go through the normal route and must go through Congress. Why the discrimination, Idon' know.

PS soryy this respnse is for #15
The reason they cannot go through the BIA process is because of an agreement made when they were granted the name. They agreed if they were given this recognized name, that they would not seek federal recognition through the BIA process nor recieve any of the rights given to federally recognized tribes.
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Old 07-26-2006, 08:36 AM   #26
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I think that was a poor decision by the Lumbee's leaders. The only reason the government agreed to it is because they thought the Lumbee's would never try to get Federal Rec. It's just another way the government try's to oppress Natives! You can best believe if the government could avoid paying all Fedarally Rec. tribes they would!
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Old 07-27-2006, 08:50 PM   #27
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It was a different time Palefacehater... during that time, congress was taking away recognition from tribes, and yet they gave them a recognized name, even without the benefits. But it did show that the government did recognize the fact that they were an indian community at that time.
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Old 07-31-2006, 03:15 PM   #28
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Well, the Committee is scheduled to vote on this bill on Wednesday, Aug. 2 at 9:30am...what is everyone's thoughts on how that vote will go?

I think they will pass it out of Committee...barely, but I do think it will pass.

Also saw where the Committee will be tackling the Virginia Tribes Recognition Bill...any thoughts on that one? I'd support a few of those tribes wholeheartedly in their bid for recognition, but a few of those just don't meet the criteria.
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Old 07-31-2006, 03:37 PM   #29
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Singer Dad who do you think doesn't meet the criteria? It's o.k. you won't hurt my feelings? I was just wondering?
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Old 07-31-2006, 09:06 PM   #30
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I got a feeling they'll give a lame excuse and it won't pass. But I'd like to see it pass!
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Old 08-02-2006, 11:05 AM   #31
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Another step....

The Bill passed 8 to 6 vote this morning....that is one hurdle over with,
now comes the big ones...
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Old 08-02-2006, 11:21 AM   #32
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I'm glad to hear it!
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Old 08-02-2006, 05:42 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Singerdad
Also saw where the Committee will be tackling the Virginia Tribes Recognition Bill...any thoughts on that one? I'd support a few of those tribes wholeheartedly in their bid for recognition, but a few of those just don't meet the criteria.
There is a legal theory that says something along the order of if you have been damaged what your award should total is enough to make you "whole".

With all of the excesses in US/VA state history of actions against the Virginia tribes, this legal theory of "making whole" should be (in my opinion) applied - and if it is, there is more than enough slack to err on the side of not meeting some bureaucrat's idea of what an ndn tribe -should- be.

Just my .02 of course - take what fits, leave what doesn't.

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Old 08-02-2006, 05:43 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darkwaterlum
The Bill passed 8 to 6 vote this morning....that is one hurdle over with,
now comes the big ones...
It's outta Committee so NOW what's next?
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Old 08-04-2006, 04:23 PM   #35
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It was great to see such good friends to indian country come out and vote against us at the committee meeting. When you got good friends like the senators from north and south dakota pulling against you it surely does help out a lot....

Now that Im through been sarcastic

Much love to Senators like John Mccain and Pete Domenci who have large indian constituency and voted for us base on the principle of the matter and didnt let casino money cloud their judgement or let the green of a dollar give them instant amnesia.

When are Indian people going to Finally stop fighting Indian people. To my Cherokee brothers and other tribes who oppose us,, I love you,, I love you from the bottom of my heart,, and Im asking that you take your casino money and influence and use it for the good of your respective tribes or for the good of all indian country. The Hon. Michelle Hicks said that if we go through congress then our recognition is based on politics,,,I say if you lobby lawmakers to vote against other tribes, then YOU are injecting politics into the lawmaking process. Let us get a fair shake. You guys have been winning for many decades now,,,let us at least get a fair shake,, an up or down vote on the floor of the house and senate,, and if we can not get the votes then fine,,,, we will still be second class citizens in our own country,, but at least we can say the government of the USA did it and not our own INDIAN people!
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Old 08-05-2006, 03:17 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by palefacehater
You know I use to think the Lumbee's were not Native, but I've done some research and have come to the conclusion that they are in fact Native! I know one reason my tribe does not want them to get federal recognition is beacaue there are so many of them and it will probably cut out alot of the funding my people get! Not that I agree with our reasoning. We Cherokee and Lumbee should stand together on this matter and demand the funds both tribes have a right tooo.
I was lumbee before it was cool to be lumbee.

Being Lakota has been cool since before I was born, so I'm straight there...

I had my card when it wasn't even state recognized for lumbees, then I get a letter saying I can have my feathers... LOL, too little too late...

Anyone else still have one of those? I can't remember who mine is signed by, its in my moms safebox, but I think it was something silverstar? Silverstar-Reed or, maybe Eva Silverstar-Reed, something like that?

Thats from like 1989 - 93 somewhere in there, I'm not sure how old i was when I even found out I had one ><


There was a time when I thought crows were just birds... Imagine my surprise when I was at the rodeo during crow fair >< LOL... I <3 you guys sometimes :)

Just because Lumbees haven't been in 5 cartoons, 60 western movies, 2 flops, and "Dancing with wolves" doesn't mean they don't exsist... Imagine claiming you are Mohawk after "Last of the Mohicans" lol...

We all have alot of work to do, one of the things is not bashing eachothers tribe, and start working together, this is afterall, our country... I personally don't think 77 million is enough for the Lumbees, considering we were federally recognized like half a centry ago, and never got a dime....

Besides, I think Lumbee is a kickass sounding nation... Its like, Humvee.... Just rolls off your tounge :)


We're real, you just didn't see us before it was "cool"
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Old 08-10-2006, 12:47 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by between2worlds
It's outta Committee so NOW what's next?
I think that now the senate has to vote and then the house of representatives.
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Old 08-10-2006, 12:49 PM   #38
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I think this is when it's going to get really hard...
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Old 08-23-2006, 12:59 AM   #39
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Truth!

The eastern bands stance about congressional recognition being inappropriate is obviously nothing more than an attempt to be politically correct. Never have they ever intervened with any of the congressional proceedings dealing with the almost 20 different tribes to receive congressional recognition after the establishment of the current administrative process.

The fact is that their real concern is with Lumbees receiving congressional recognition. This is the bottom line truth.

Chief Hicks made one argument however, that I do understand. He pointed out something that, in my opinion, is the cornerstone of resentment held against Lumbees by most members of the Eastern Band Cherokee nation.

He pointed out that we have been called by many names, at one time even as “the Cherokees of Robeson County.” This is something that was sparked in 1913 and has snowballed through generations into the heart-felt bitter mess that it is today!

Given this fact I understand why most Cherokees have their doubts. If I were Cherokee and grew up hearing the things about Lumbees that most Cherokees grow up hearing I would probably have them myself. The things taught to us as children by our parents and grand parents will more often than not be handed down to our children and grandchildren. This can be a wonderful thing preserving culture, beliefs, and a way of living giving us a since of pride and place; but it can also be a horrible thing instilling hate, resentment, and prejudice. This thing can make people close minded and judgmental!

I understand that there are many out there who leech from and disgrace Cherokee heritage. I understand why most Cherokees are very high strung when it comes to this issue.

But what needs to be understood by the Cherokee leaders, elders, and especially their youth is that things are not always spelled out in black or white. More often than not truth and understanding are found in a grey area that our conditioned minds often have trouble seeing! Our beliefs, our anger, our bias, our arrogance, and our pride have a tendency to blind us from reality!

Evil deeds are very often committed by people who believe that they are doing the right thing!

When a people are persecuted and pressured into giving up what they hold sacred and precious, they have a reason to be proud when they manage to survive and carry these things on. This is a wonderful thing that unfortunately often has a negative side effect; it places many in a position where they have the ability to judge. But just because they can, does not necessarily mean that they should!

It is an unconditional historic fact that there has been and continues to be (to some degree at least, historians, researchers, and scholars have drastically narrowed the selection) a debate as to which pre-colonial indigenous nations had the most influence on the conglomeration that took place in the 1700’s to form what is now known as the Lumbee tribe! It is also truth that this debate may never be fully resolved!

The question I am asking folks to ponder is whether or not this debate should hold any real weight in deciding whether or not to bestow full fledged federal recognition on the Lumbee tribe?

There is absolutely no dispute that we are descended from a pre-colonial tribe or conglomeration of tribes who combined as one!

Does it really matter if someone in DC knows what languages we spoke or ceremonies we did?

What does this have to do with one sovereign recognizing another?

Never-mind self righteous romanticized notions that some folks may have!

In the real world:
What does this have to do with an indigenous people, who were sovereign when first encountered by white settlement in this region and who have continuously maintained a distinct tribal existence, sending a delegation of their government officials to DC to negotiate a GOVERNMENT to GOVERNMENT relationship?
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Old 08-23-2006, 08:41 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by lumbeedancer
The eastern bands stance about congressional recognition being inappropriate is obviously nothing more than an attempt to be politically correct. Never have they ever intervened with any of the congressional proceedings dealing with the almost 20 different tribes to receive congressional recognition after the establishment of the current administrative process.

The fact is that their real concern is with Lumbees receiving congressional recognition. This is the bottom line truth.

Chief Hicks made one argument however, that I do understand. He pointed out something that, in my opinion, is the cornerstone of resentment held against Lumbees by most members of the Eastern Band Cherokee nation.

He pointed out that we have been called by many names, at one time even as “the Cherokees of Robeson County.” This is something that was sparked in 1913 and has snowballed through generations into the heart-felt bitter mess that it is today!

Given this fact I understand why most Cherokees have their doubts. If I were Cherokee and grew up hearing the things about Lumbees that most Cherokees grow up hearing I would probably have them myself. The things taught to us as children by our parents and grand parents will more often than not be handed down to our children and grandchildren. This can be a wonderful thing preserving culture, beliefs, and a way of living giving us a since of pride and place; but it can also be a horrible thing instilling hate, resentment, and prejudice. This thing can make people close minded and judgmental!

I understand that there are many out there who leech from and disgrace Cherokee heritage. I understand why most Cherokees are very high strung when it comes to this issue.

But what needs to be understood by the Cherokee leaders, elders, and especially their youth is that things are not always spelled out in black or white. More often than not truth and understanding are found in a grey area that our conditioned minds often have trouble seeing! Our beliefs, our anger, our bias, our arrogance, and our pride have a tendency to blind us from reality!

Evil deeds are very often committed by people who believe that they are doing the right thing!

When a people are persecuted and pressured into giving up what they hold sacred and precious, they have a reason to be proud when they manage to survive and carry these things on. This is a wonderful thing that unfortunately often has a negative side effect; it places many in a position where they have the ability to judge. But just because they can, does not necessarily mean that they should!

It is an unconditional historic fact that there has been and continues to be (to some degree at least, historians, researchers, and scholars have drastically narrowed the selection) a debate as to which pre-colonial indigenous nations had the most influence on the conglomeration that took place in the 1700’s to form what is now known as the Lumbee tribe! It is also truth that this debate may never be fully resolved!

The question I am asking folks to ponder is whether or not this debate should hold any real weight in deciding whether or not to bestow full fledged federal recognition on the Lumbee tribe?

There is absolutely no dispute that we are descended from a pre-colonial tribe or conglomeration of tribes who combined as one!

Does it really matter if someone in DC knows what languages we spoke or ceremonies we did?

What does this have to do with one sovereign recognizing another?

Never-mind self righteous romanticized notions that some folks may have!

In the real world:
What does this have to do with an indigenous people, who were sovereign when first encountered by white settlement in this region and who have continuously maintained a distinct tribal existence, sending a delegation of their government officials to DC to negotiate a GOVERNMENT to GOVERNMENT relationship?
To tell the truth, I really don't care one way or the other on this issue. Tribes have dealt with underfunding of federal programs for decades. So much for having to take a smaller cut. (But don't think for one second that federal funds are going to fix any problems in Lumbee country. It hasn't on the QB.) As for speculation about a Lumbee casino, it would draw from different markets than the Cherokee one (other than Charlotte, which is only a fraction of the market). In that aspect, the Poarch Creeks and the United Keetoowah Band (another Cherokee tribe), who are trying to start gaming in north Alabama, are far greater threats for competition. NC is not a vacuum.
One thing needs to be said. If the Lumbee do get recognized, the EBCI had better learn to work with them. They're already a force to be reckoned with.
One thing that needs to be understood, and this isn't an indictment of Lumbee legitimacy, is that groups that clearly have no legitimacy would use the congressional route. The Sugar Creek Cherokees in Tennessee have announced just such a plan. Look at Congress and ask how many Indians are there. Do we really want a body with such a lack of knowledge making determinations of who's a tribe and who isn't? The need for a petitioning process is a valid concern, regardless of what Chief Hicks chooses to focus on.
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Last edited by Badmutha; 08-23-2006 at 08:44 AM..
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