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Old 12-24-2005, 11:06 AM   #101
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:)

And I like the statement she makes by having two blond back up singers. For once, the blondes are in the background while an Indian takes front and center. [/QUOTE]




LOL - I hear that Godstomp!!! :):):) But, she really needs to lose them and find some NDNs. Can't us NDNs have something w/o white people infringing upon it? Gets on my last nerve......

Anyhoo, MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!
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Old 12-24-2005, 10:43 PM   #102
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You know though, that the lost colony descendants were actually found right? And it's no where near robeson county. So if the lost colony joined the hatteras and you believe the hatteras were tuscaroras, then they did'nt go to robeson county.
http://www.lost-colony.com/paperlinking.html
http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~jmack...in/phelps3.htm <-- old date, but important information on it.
http://www.lost-colony.com/
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Old 12-25-2005, 01:58 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackbear
You know though, that the lost colony descendants were actually found right? And it's no where near robeson county. So if the lost colony joined the hatteras and you believe the hatteras were tuscaroras, then they did'nt go to robeson county.
http://www.lost-colony.com/paperlinking.html
http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~jmack...in/phelps3.htm <-- old date, but important information on it.
http://www.lost-colony.com/
Chwe'n,
I'm glad you brought this up Blackbear, because I went to all of the links you provided, and no where, did I see anything about the people in Robeson County. I did see however, alot of Dr. David Phelps remarks, and writing about Dr. Charles Heath, who, both of which have done all digs of Tuscarora sites in the state.(Dr. Heath is who we saw this year at Barton College. He is also the chief archealogist on Ft. Bragg on which there is a current dig ongoing called "fox run". The land on which Fort Bragg is located was Tuscarora ancestral lands, yet now, Dr. Heath says that it was Cherokee.) Dr. Phelps is also the one who at one time, wrote that the people in Robeson and Sampson counties were Tuscarora, only to change his story years later.

The name Charles Ewen popped up also, who is the curator of the remains of our, and your ancestors being held in boxes at the ECU archealogy dept. As you may know, this is where both Dr. Phelps and Dr. Heath worked for many years. The only person I didn't see writen about, was Dr. John E. Byrd, who did more work at Neoheroka than anyone. Dr. Byrd also just so happens to have worked with Tuscarora here in Robeson years ago, and even wrote a letter on our behalf, which you saw recently on the yahoo group. He came to Mary Sanderson's home on several occasions, and gave presentations on what happened at the Neoheroka dig, and what was found. Then, Dr. Byrd was suddenly transferred to an assignment in Southeast Asia. I wonder why?

To make a long story short, this is historical revisionism at it's finest. I mean come on Blackbear, the people here were called Croatan beginning in 1885, and you see what the article says that came out two days later. What about the fact that no one had ever heard of Croatan as a tribe, until McMillan made it up.( BAE# 30). The Indians who are now known as Coharie were known as Croatan for many years also, becasue they are the same people who are here. When the first Tuscarora group reemerged here in 1970, the state renamed the Croatan of Sampson County, Coharie in 1971.

§ 71A-6. Coharie Tribe of North Carolina; rights, privileges, immunities,obligations and duties. The Indians now living in Harnett and Sampson and adjoining counties of North
Carolina, originally found by the first white settlers on the Coharie River in Sampson County, and claiming descent from certain tribes of Indians originally inhabiting the coastal regions of North Carolina, shall, from and after July 20, 1971, be designated and officially recognized as the Coharie Tribe of North Carolina and shall continue to enjoy all their rights, privileges and immunities as citizens of the State as now or hereafter provided by law, and shall continue to be subject to all the obligations and duties ofcitizens under the law. (1977, 2nd Sess., c. 1193, s. 1.)


Why don't these sites mention the people here or Sampson?

One thing that I noticed,was that they are agreeing with McMillan on where he said the Lost Colony went, which was almost due south of Roanoke Island. But, all writers before McMillan always said that they went due west along the 36th degree parallel. This was the "secret agreement" made between White, and the colonists if they should ever leave.

If you look at a map of the Albemarle Sound, you will see the 36th degree parallel line. Fifty miles due west of Roanoke Island will put you directly in Bertie County, at a place called Avoca. This is where the Chowan and the Roanoke come together forming the Albemarle Sound. Ralph Lane had already been to the area, and knew that it was perfect for settlement. The McPherson report says this several times. Not only that, but how strange is it that the town of Plymouth is just south of this spot in Bertie, which Plymouth was the port from which the colonists originally left from England.

Here is one part from the McPherson report from page 86, quoting the work of Samuel A'Court Ashe:

"On his departure for England, the avowed intention was for the colonists to settle fifty miles in the interior; and when he coasted along Croatoan leisurely he observed no sign of their presence on the shore. Instead of establishing themselves on that barren sandbank, exposed to the attacks of the Spaniards, with no inviting streams, nor fertile fields, nor shady forests, they looked westward for a secure and agreeable location for their permanent settlement. Fifty miles would have brought them to the "goodly highlands, on the left hand between Muscamunge and Chowanoak," where the Indians already had fertile cornfields; and there, according to Indian statements of different sources, they appear to have seated themselves on what are now the pleasant bluffs of Bertie County."

The state has been trying to coverup this information for atleast the last 120 years, and there is no reason why they would stop now.

Ooneh,
Chris
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Last edited by Roskerah; 12-25-2005 at 02:34 AM..
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Old 12-25-2005, 02:28 AM   #104
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Site may actually help theory

Chwe'n,
Blackbear, that first link on the Lost Colony Site actually has something that may help what I have been saying.

Under the migration patterns on the left, go down about two thirds of the way and you will see this:

All of the names of the villages that were on the John White map from the 1585 Roanoke Voyage are documented. After the dark period, as alluded to above, all of the village names changed and the people in the villages became a totally different linguistically speaking group and culture. The Algonquians had a name for these Indians who lived to the west. They called them “Mangoaks”, which was a very deriding term meaning “they are rattlesnakes” (Shepard/Willard 2002). The Algonquians had stood their ground against these “Mangoaks” for at least a thousand years (Phelps: P.C.; Parramore: U.P.P.; Shepard/Willard), but during this twenty-year dark period (1587-1608), they underwent some kind of culture overthrow or downfall. When the colonists at the time of the Jamestown settlements (1608/1612) migrated to the south, they confirmed that they were dealing with the Tuscarora Indians not the Algonquians from the Roanoke times. It was the Tuscarora that negotiated with the Jamestown colonists who had settled the North Shore of the Albemarle Sound. The Indians drew a line east and west on the Albemarle Sound dictating a demarcation line that was not to be crossed. When the Europeans aggressively continued to cross this demarcation line, hostilities broke out. The disputation finally culminated in the outbreak of the Tuscarora War and the Tuscarora’s defeat at their Nehoroka Fort in about 1714 (Parramore: U.P.P.).

What happened between 1590 and 1608 will probably never be satisfactorily documented. The Coastal Indians may have been decimated by European illnesses to the point that their numbers were very weakened. A final assault just a few years before Jamestown was settled probably resulted in their overthrow. The fate of the "Lost Colony" may have been inadvertently caught up in a war not of their making. There is an abundance of evidence (seven separate sources from Jamestown) suggesting that it was Indians to the west (Tuscarora?) that captured, tortured and enslaved the 1587 Colony. There is also evidence that several hostile tribes may have united for this final assault, which overran these Coastal Indians (Parramore: U.P.P.; Miller; Shepard/Willard 2002).


Ooneh,
Chris
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Last edited by Roskerah; 12-26-2005 at 09:43 PM..
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Old 12-25-2005, 03:46 AM   #105
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I'll have to re-read your posts to reply tomorrow or something .. right now I've had just a little too much nog if you know what I mean LOL!
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Old 12-25-2005, 08:26 AM   #106
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As an official judge of absolutely nothing, I move we break for Christmas! There, a Christmas recess it is, then counsel may reapproach the court tomorrow, December 26th in between return lines and 70% sales!
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Old 12-25-2005, 08:32 PM   #107
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I don't agree Homa. This argument cannot withstand the Christmas break. It must go on.
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Old 12-25-2005, 09:11 PM   #108
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but the jury has been sequestered for 40 days and 40 nights, ah come on, puhleaze!
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Old 12-26-2005, 09:46 PM   #109
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updating last post

Chwe'n,
I just updated my last post, adding the last paragraph that was supposed to have been posted with the original.

Ooneh,
Chris
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Old 12-27-2005, 04:45 AM   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roskerah
Chwe'n,
I'm glad you brought this up Blackbear, because I went to all of the links you provided, and no where, did I see anything about the people in Robeson County. I did see however, alot of Dr. David Phelps remarks, and writing about Dr. Charles Heath, who, both of which have done all digs of Tuscarora sites in the state.(Dr. Heath is who we saw this year at Barton College. He is also the chief archealogist on Ft. Bragg on which there is a current dig ongoing called "fox run". The land on which Fort Bragg is located was Tuscarora ancestral lands, yet now, Dr. Heath says that it was Cherokee.) Dr. Phelps is also the one who at one time, wrote that the people in Robeson and Sampson counties were Tuscarora, only to change his story years later.
Ok we've heard this before, and it was'nt Dr. Phelps who said they were tuscarora, it was some english gal who said it but because she was with dr. phelps at the time he got accredited for it.
Quote:
The name Charles Ewen popped up also, who is the curator of the remains of our, and your ancestors being held in boxes at the ECU archealogy dept. As you may know, this is where both Dr. Phelps and Dr. Heath worked for many years. The only person I didn't see writen about, was Dr. John E. Byrd, who did more work at Neoheroka than anyone. Dr. Byrd also just so happens to have worked with Tuscarora here in Robeson years ago, and even wrote a letter on our behalf, which you saw recently on the yahoo group. He came to Mary Sanderson's home on several occasions, and gave presentations on what happened at the Neoheroka dig, and what was found. Then, Dr. Byrd was suddenly transferred to an assignment in Southeast Asia. I wonder why?
if he works for a university that happens alot... I know this cause I know acheologists/anthropoligists from SIUE ..one was my boss's wife.
Quote:
To make a long story short, this is historical revisionism at it's finest. I mean come on Blackbear, the people here were called Croatan beginning in 1885, and you see what the article says that came out two days later. What about the fact that no one had ever heard of Croatan as a tribe, until McMillan made it up.( BAE# 30). The Indians who are now known as Coharie were known as Croatan for many years also, becasue they are the same people who are here. When the first Tuscarora group reemerged here in 1970, the state renamed the Croatan of Sampson County, Coharie in 1971.


§ 71A-6. Coharie Tribe of North Carolina; rights, privileges, immunities,obligations and duties. The Indians now living in Harnett and Sampson and adjoining counties of North
Carolina, originally found by the first white settlers on the Coharie River in Sampson County, and claiming descent from certain tribes of Indians originally inhabiting the coastal regions of North Carolina, shall, from and after July 20, 1971, be designated and officially recognized as the Coharie Tribe of North Carolina and shall continue to enjoy all their rights, privileges and immunities as citizens of the State as now or hereafter provided by law, and shall continue to be subject to all the obligations and duties ofcitizens under the law. (1977, 2nd Sess., c. 1193, s. 1.)


Why don't these sites mention the people here or Sampson?
See that's what I mean.. they don't mention them because they don't believe those people went there.

Quote:
One thing that I noticed,was that they are agreeing with McMillan on where he said the Lost Colony went, which was almost due south of Roanoke Island. But, all writers before McMillan always said that they went due west along the 36th degree parallel. This was the "secret agreement" made between White, and the colonists if they should ever leave.

If you look at a map of the Albemarle Sound, you will see the 36th degree parallel line. Fifty miles due west of Roanoke Island will put you directly in Bertie County, at a place called Avoca. This is where the Chowan and the Roanoke come together forming the Albemarle Sound. Ralph Lane had already been to the area, and knew that it was perfect for settlement. The McPherson report says this several times. Not only that, but how strange is it that the town of Plymouth is just south of this spot in Bertie, which Plymouth was the port from which the colonists originally left from England.

Here is one part from the McPherson report from page 86, quoting the work of Samuel A'Court Ashe:

"On his departure for England, the avowed intention was for the colonists to settle fifty miles in the interior; and when he coasted along Croatoan leisurely he observed no sign of their presence on the shore. Instead of establishing themselves on that barren sandbank, exposed to the attacks of the Spaniards, with no inviting streams, nor fertile fields, nor shady forests, they looked westward for a secure and agreeable location for their permanent settlement. Fifty miles would have brought them to the "goodly highlands, on the left hand between Muscamunge and Chowanoak," where the Indians already had fertile cornfields; and there, according to Indian statements of different sources, they appear to have seated themselves on what are now the pleasant bluffs of Bertie County."

The state has been trying to coverup this information for atleast the last 120 years, and there is no reason why they would stop now.

Ooneh,
Chris
That link (http://www.lost-colony.com/), you need to read it all and very carefully. The evidence that they present is'nt in an order that is layed out to simply say, no they are'nt in robeson, yes they are here. It instead talks of the evidence that they have found that is really indisputable. Evidence such as a signet ring that they found, and a land lease to a couple of indians who claimed to have been descended from stranded english and indians mixing. When following the descendancy of those two they came to a location (geez I can't remember where exactly, it says on the site though) northeast where most of the people of that town have the same surnames as those from the lost colony roster. Robeson county doe'snt have those names (not a significant amount anyhow), but Robeson, and Sampson county do share the same names with those in SC who claim to be peedee and catawba.... You keep asking why certain people like McMillan change thier stories.. maybe they saw that their original theories were wrong? And maybe it made enough people made enough to go off on them so they just, gave up doing any further research for the people? That's just my own theory.
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Old 12-27-2005, 07:14 AM   #111
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and I realize I should'nt have said they were found like .. all of their descendants found.. that was bad on my part... but many of them were found... anyhow I went back to try to find more of what I'm talking about and what you want to look for is the articles section.



http://www.lost-colony.com/newspaper.html
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Last edited by Blackbear; 12-27-2005 at 07:24 AM.. Reason: found one of the articles.. posting a link
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Old 12-27-2005, 10:45 AM   #112
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Chwe'n,

Quote:
Ok we've heard this before, and it was'nt Dr. Phelps who said they were tuscarora, it was some english gal who said it but because she was with dr. phelps at the time he got accredited for it.
Ok Blackbear, where exactly did you hear this? You are the only person I have seen that says this.

Quote:
if he works for a university that happens alot... I know this cause I know acheologists/anthropoligists from SIUE ..one was my boss's wife.
ok...but, what I said doesnt sound strange to you? There is irony, and then there's conspiracy. You even believe that there has been a conspiracy witht eh people here, though not in regards to Tuscarora specifically...yet. lol

Quote:
See that's what I mean.. they don't mention them because they don't believe those people went there.
Please.....Blackbear, they are just throwing out accepted findings from over 120 years ago, which the State of North Carolina made into law, the federal government accepted, and every other well known historian before McMillan, and coming out with something completely new.

Who knows, maybe a few did go to where this Willard fellow asserts, but again, they don't even mention the past history with the people here. Willard even suggests that they split into several groups. Regarding artifacts, heck there were artifacts found amoung the people here in the 1800's that were attributable to the Lost Colony. One example is a crossbow, that was in use in the 17th century which was found here among the people.

Another thing, and it is very important, is the "going 50 miles to the mainland" should they ever leave Roanoke Island. If you look at the map attached, you will see "one" of Willard's theorys as to where the colonists went to after leaving Roanoke. This map contradicts every other writer prior to McMillan, and even negates what McMillan said as to the colonists direction of migration. He said they went directly south, staying on the outerbanks. Willard, on this map still goes against all previous writers, because they all said that they went due west, not due west and then south, as Willard professes. Keep in mind that the main reason that the colonists settled in that area to begin with, was because most colonial countries exploring back then, were all looking for a westward passage to the orient, and were looking for El Diablo.

The Spanish had previously said that the passage was along the 36 parrallel, and the English just followed suit. Also, Ralph Lane, who was with the first colonists, had already explored the bertie area, and this is why the secret aggreement to go due west to bertie was established by John White, should they ever leave.

Next, I still don't believe that there were ever any "permanent" villages on the coast. The villages on the coast were temporary ones, used for seasonal fishing trips by the people who lived further inland. The outerbanks is constantly changing with every hurricane, and I am sure that the Indian people back then had better sense than to establish permanent villages there for this reason alone.

Quote:
That link (http://www.lost-colony.com/), you need to read it all and very carefully. The evidence that they present is'nt in an order that is layed out to simply say, no they are'nt in robeson, yes they are here. It instead talks of the evidence that they have found that is really indisputable. Evidence such as a signet ring that they found, and a land lease to a couple of indians who claimed to have been descended from stranded english and indians mixing. When following the descendancy of those two they came to a location (geez I can't remember where exactly, it says on the site though) northeast where most of the people of that town have the same surnames as those from the lost colony roster. Robeson county doe'snt have those names (not a significant amount anyhow), but Robeson, and Sampson county do share the same names with those in SC who claim to be peedee and catawba.... You keep asking why certain people like McMillan change thier stories.. maybe they saw that their original theories were wrong? And maybe it made enough people made enough to go off on them so they just, gave up doing any further research for the people? That's just my own theory.
One ring huh? And a deed? Indisputable? What about the people here in the 1800's? Most writers said that what the people here said, and what they remembered was indisputable. I think "indisputable" is relative isn't it? Because, "indisputable" to you and I are two different things.

Regarding names, a man named Melvin Robinson studied the colonists, and of the 869 heads of families in the 1790 census of Robeson, 24 lost colony names occured 106 times for a 12.2% of the total family names of this county. 30-40% of the total list of names of the colonists. Willard only says that the names that they are asserting are "similar" to the lost colony, not "exact" like the ones here.

Finally Blackbear, did you not read the last paragraph that I posted from Willard's site? I noticed that you didnt copy and paste it.

Ooneh,
Chris
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Old 12-27-2005, 10:59 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Blackbear
and I realize I should'nt have said they were found like .. all of their descendants found.. that was bad on my part... but many of them were found... anyhow I went back to try to find more of what I'm talking about and what you want to look for is the articles section.



http://www.lost-colony.com/newspaper.html
Chwe'n,
Blackbear, why are you giving so much credence to newspaper articles of today, yet you won't even comment on the February 12, 1885 article that says the people here are Tuscarora? Everyone of those articles on the link you provided is fairly recent. How about the other old documents that I posted?

I did however, go to the migration article on the link, and found this: http://www.lost-colony.com/migration.html
Quote:
If his theories are true -- he uses a handful of deeds and oral history to make his case -- Willard believes history books will change in the coming decade or so.

"What we are about to find out is that the Indans' migration is nothing like what it is in the North Carolina history books," Willard said. "What we are seeing is that everything on that John White map from 1585 is an Algonquian name. Jamestown is settled 1608 and the first deed is signed 1650. Then in this circle down here (Hyde County area), every single name turns into a Tuscaurora name. I think the Saponie, Aconoche and the Tuscaurora finally decided they were in a position where they could overrun the English if they joined forces.

"When the Jamestown people come down, there are no Algonquians left. Seven hundred warriors at Chowanock -- and the village is gone. Everything they are dealing with is Tuscaurora Indians."

In 1712 the Tuscaurora War broke out.

"After the Tuscaurora Indian wars, 60 to 80 Indians -- Croatan and Mattamuskeet and a few Coree -- waged gorilla warfare out of these swamps," Willard says, pointing to the Dismal Swamp area of his map.

He then relates the Dismal Swamp Indian legend.

"They waged warfare out of there for six years. (The English) never defeated them and never saw them. They came out of the swamp and raided Roanoke Island and killed 24. They went back into the swamp and (the English) went in after them and never saw an Indian.

"They came out and raided a village on the Alligator River in 1712 and killed 16. Nine months later, they raided the Pamlico and killed over 100 people and went back into the swamp.
Now, how in the world do Algonquin names all of a sudden "change" to Tuscarora within a 20 year time frame? This is a bunch of crap. They had always been Tuscarora.

Ooneh,
Chris
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Old 12-27-2005, 04:17 PM   #114
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Chwe'n,
Ok Blackbear, where exactly did you hear this? You are the only person I have seen that says this.
from someone who was there when it was supposedly said..not quoting from someone quoting another person

Quote:
ok...but, what I said doesnt sound strange to you? There is irony, and then there's conspiracy. You even believe that there has been a conspiracy witht eh people here, though not in regards to Tuscarora specifically...yet. lol
unless it supports your theory that ya'll are tuscarora it's gonna sound like conspiracy to you.. that's why you quote McMillan in one instance and not others, only the stuff that supports your tuscarora stance. Pick and choose man... that's what I see going on.

Quote:
Please.....Blackbear, they are just throwing out accepted findings from over 120 years ago, which the State of North Carolina made into law, the federal government accepted, and every other well known historian before McMillan, and coming out with something completely new.
The thing is, they are not just throwing out accepted findings. These guys have spent money...LOTS of money from their own pockets even to do satellite imaging for more accurate mapping (how do you think they found neoheroka in the first place). They may have used other's findings as a base to go from, but they have been doing the homework and legwork needed to get the information they now have. No one else has ever researched this in depth before.

Quote:
Who knows, maybe a few did go to where this Willard fellow asserts, but again, they don't even mention the past history with the people here. Willard even suggests that they split into several groups. Regarding artifacts, heck there were artifacts found amoung the people here in the 1800's that were attributable to the Lost Colony. One example is a crossbow, that was in use in the 17th century which was found here among the people.
Found as in how? Passed down artifact? Dug up? Can anyone trace that artifact back to someone from the lost colony like they can that signet ring? The lost colony were'nt the first people there on NC soil were they? How can you only stop at so much information without looking at all aspects of how, when or why? How do you know it was'nt traded with the people there from other tribes that came in contact with whites? When did it first appear among the people? And the why's are endless....

Quote:
Another thing, and it is very important, is the "going 50 miles to the mainland" should they ever leave Roanoke Island. If you look at the map attached, you will see "one" of Willard's theorys as to where the colonists went to after leaving Roanoke. This map contradicts every other writer prior to McMillan, and even negates what McMillan said as to the colonists direction of migration. He said they went directly south, staying on the outerbanks. Willard, on this map still goes against all previous writers, because they all said that they went due west, not due west and then south, as Willard professes. Keep in mind that the main reason that the colonists settled in that area to begin with, was because most colonial countries exploring back then, were all looking for a westward passage to the orient, and were looking for El Diablo. The Spanish had previously said that the passage was along the 36 parrallel, and the English just followed suit. Also, Ralph Lane, who was with the first colonists, had already explored the bertie area, and this is why the secret aggreement to go due west to bertie was established by John White, should they ever leave.
I see you've added that new information to your theory... but see why would they travel that far that early on when they were hoping the ship would return? No they only left for survival, they were'nt still searching for gold when gold would do them no good if no one returned for them would it? And after marrying into so many generations of indians, they would'nt need to keep going in search of gold or the orient...that would no longer be the goal. And don't forget, Williard has used satellite mapping... and it's gotten him where he is so far which is closer than anyone in history.

Quote:
Next, I still don't believe that there were ever any "permanent" villages on the coast. The villages on the coast were temporary ones, used for seasonal fishing trips by the people who lived further inland. The outerbanks is constantly changing with every hurricane, and I am sure that the Indian people back then had better sense than to establish permanent villages there for this reason alone.
Right.. I did'nt dispute this... but the people who wrote the first accounts probably did'nt take that into consideration. Maybe it was during the off season that they went in search of shelter....?


Quote:
One ring huh? And a deed? Indisputable? What about the people here in the 1800's? Most writers said that what the people here said, and what they remembered was indisputable. I think "indisputable" is relative isn't it? Because, "indisputable" to you and I are two different things.
And maybe some of those people were just repeating what they had been told from someone before. Same as those folks he talked to that had said they had always said that they heard they were indians mixed with english (or vice versa), except that they have been able to trace their lineages back to those in the original colony...

Quote:
Regarding names, a man named Melvin Robinson studied the colonists, and of the 869 heads of families in the 1790 census of Robeson, 24 lost colony names occured 106 times for a 12.2% of the total family names of this county. 30-40% of the total list of names of the colonists. Willard only says that the names that they are asserting are "similar" to the lost colony, not "exact" like the ones here.
But more of those names appeared and he said some of them were exact and some were'nt.
Quote:
Finally Blackbear, did you not read the last paragraph that I posted from Willard's site? I noticed that you didnt copy and paste it.

Ooneh,
Chris
I hit the quote button at the bottom of the post... if it did'nt copy I don't know why.... I'll go back and re-read it.
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Old 12-27-2005, 04:22 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Roskerah
Chwe'n,
Blackbear, why are you giving so much credence to newspaper articles of today, yet you won't even comment on the February 12, 1885 article that says the people here are Tuscarora? Everyone of those articles on the link you provided is fairly recent. How about the other old documents that I posted?
Hey, you are the one that told me I should'nt trust anything unless it was prior to 1885.... And those are'nt exactly articles that the authors are disputing, it's the information that they have researched and uncovered, not a biased newpaper opinion....



Quote:
Now, how in the world do Algonquin names all of a sudden "change" to Tuscarora within a 20 year time frame? This is a bunch of crap. They had always been Tuscarora.

Ooneh,
Chris
We've discussed this before and I believe Mike even agreed with me that some of them may have merged later with tuscaroras... but some of these names you mention don't sound iroquoian .. they do actually sound algonquin.
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Old 12-27-2005, 05:26 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Roskerah
Chwe'n,
Blackbear, why are you giving so much credence to newspaper articles of today, yet you won't even comment on the February 12, 1885 article that says the people here are Tuscarora? Everyone of those articles on the link you provided is fairly recent. How about the other old documents that I posted?

I did however, go to the migration article on the link, and found this: http://www.lost-colony.com/migration.html


Now, how in the world do Algonquin names all of a sudden "change" to Tuscarora within a 20 year time frame? This is a bunch of crap. They had always been Tuscarora.

Ooneh,
Chris
Chris this is a cut an paste job done kinda sloppy because the way you have done this makes some of it sound like it was quoted from Williard himself when the first part is actually a quote from the newspaper article writer and his own suppositions.
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Old 12-27-2005, 06:07 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Blackbear
Chris this is a cut an paste job done kinda sloppy because the way you have done this makes some of it sound like it was quoted from Williard himself when the first part is actually a quote from the newspaper article writer and his own suppositions.
Chwe'n,
I will respond tonight after the meeting I have to go to, but oh boy...I cant wait.lol

Ooneh,
Chris
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Old 12-27-2005, 06:57 PM   #118
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What about these quotes then Chris?
From the same link:
"We have the Indian name and his English counterpart's surname, John Padgett, and his Algonquian Indian name, and they sued for peace. They meet John Padgett and his men on the Outer Banks and what they gave them was the best Indian reservation any Indians ever got in North America, which was Mattamuskeet Lake and all the land to the sound. Padgett and Squarehooks, who we were wondering if they are Squires. Also Mackey, John Barbour and Long Tom are the Indians in charge. They get this land, and then we get almost 25 deeds (showing) where they are selling it. We think they leave there and (go) to Pinetown."

Willard's ideas may seem a bit far-fetched to some listeners, but as his story continues, other ideas he broaches make his speculation seem more plausible.

"My oldest English family was traced to the surname Boston," said Charles Shepard, who attended the recent seminar presented by Willard at Southside School and believes he is a descendant of the Mattamuskeet Indians. "In 1790, there was only two people that had only one name in Hyde County; they were both Bostons."
Shepard also points out, "In Masschuesetts, on Nantuckeet, there was a trial for, and Indians named, Boston, who was a whaler on a ship owned by a man with the name Swain. While they were out (at sea), the state signed into law (a bill) making slavery illegal and Boston, an Indian, was given his wages. A court case ensued and led to all slaves being freed in the state of Masschuesetts.

"The whaling ships would run from Nantuckeet to Cape Hatteras, and they would always look for safe houses," he continued. "A whaler Indian stole a book from a man named Zephania Pinkham, who came to North Carolina. They always went to the nearest Indian village."
That's where the first deed Willard found comes into play.

Elizabeth Elks deeded lands of the native Indians "to Nate Pinkham, (including) a parcel of land known as Indian lands," Chocowinity resident and East Carolina University student Emily Elks noted, reading from the deed.

After providing a description of the area involved, she notes the deed mentions "the whole of the Indian lands."

At the conclusion of Emily Elks' reading of the deed at a recent seminar at Southside High School, Barbara Pinkham, also from Beaufort County, interjected, "Nathaniel - Nate on this deed -- I found out his father, Zephania, was a whaler. I found a will that Zephania left to Nate."

From there, the family lineage was easy to trace; the descendants end up in the present-day communities of Free Union and Pinetown.

Willard believes the "Beechland Indians" moved inland as well.

Shepard has deeds showing that his ancestors moved near the same area, as well.

"Both of my parents are from the Free Union area," Shepard said, "On Whelch's Creek near the Washington/Martin County line, there Moratoc Indians in 1586, and the last of them from 1680 to 1690. In 1685, the Croatan Indians came from Manteo to the area and, in 1687, the Tuscaurora moved in with the Croatan."
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Old 12-27-2005, 11:02 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackbear
What about these quotes then Chris?
From the same link:
"We have the Indian name and his English counterpart's surname, John Padgett, and his Algonquian Indian name, and they sued for peace. They meet John Padgett and his men on the Outer Banks and what they gave them was the best Indian reservation any Indians ever got in North America, which was Mattamuskeet Lake and all the land to the sound. Padgett and Squarehooks, who we were wondering if they are Squires. Also Mackey, John Barbour and Long Tom are the Indians in charge. They get this land, and then we get almost 25 deeds (showing) where they are selling it. We think they leave there and (go) to Pinetown."

Willard's ideas may seem a bit far-fetched to some listeners, but as his story continues, other ideas he broaches make his speculation seem more plausible.

"My oldest English family was traced to the surname Boston," said Charles Shepard, who attended the recent seminar presented by Willard at Southside School and believes he is a descendant of the Mattamuskeet Indians. "In 1790, there was only two people that had only one name in Hyde County; they were both Bostons."
Shepard also points out, "In Masschuesetts, on Nantuckeet, there was a trial for, and Indians named, Boston, who was a whaler on a ship owned by a man with the name Swain. While they were out (at sea), the state signed into law (a bill) making slavery illegal and Boston, an Indian, was given his wages. A court case ensued and led to all slaves being freed in the state of Masschuesetts.

"The whaling ships would run from Nantuckeet to Cape Hatteras, and they would always look for safe houses," he continued. "A whaler Indian stole a book from a man named Zephania Pinkham, who came to North Carolina. They always went to the nearest Indian village."
That's where the first deed Willard found comes into play.

Elizabeth Elks deeded lands of the native Indians "to Nate Pinkham, (including) a parcel of land known as Indian lands," Chocowinity resident and East Carolina University student Emily Elks noted, reading from the deed.

After providing a description of the area involved, she notes the deed mentions "the whole of the Indian lands."

At the conclusion of Emily Elks' reading of the deed at a recent seminar at Southside High School, Barbara Pinkham, also from Beaufort County, interjected, "Nathaniel - Nate on this deed -- I found out his father, Zephania, was a whaler. I found a will that Zephania left to Nate."

From there, the family lineage was easy to trace; the descendants end up in the present-day communities of Free Union and Pinetown.

Willard believes the "Beechland Indians" moved inland as well.

Shepard has deeds showing that his ancestors moved near the same area, as well.

"Both of my parents are from the Free Union area," Shepard said, "On Whelch's Creek near the Washington/Martin County line, there Moratoc Indians in 1586, and the last of them from 1680 to 1690. In 1685, the Croatan Indians came from Manteo to the area and, in 1687, the Tuscaurora moved in with the Croatan."
Chwe'n,
Yeah, thats a good one. I can see parts of it being true, or atleast partially correct. That last sentence is hard to swallow though, because as you know, I believe that Croatan and Tuscarora were the same.
What is your take on it?

Ooneh,
Chris
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Old 12-27-2005, 11:04 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackbear
What about these quotes then Chris?
From the same link:
"We have the Indian name and his English counterpart's surname, John Padgett, and his Algonquian Indian name, and they sued for peace. They meet John Padgett and his men on the Outer Banks and what they gave them was the best Indian reservation any Indians ever got in North America, which was Mattamuskeet Lake and all the land to the sound. Padgett and Squarehooks, who we were wondering if they are Squires. Also Mackey, John Barbour and Long Tom are the Indians in charge. They get this land, and then we get almost 25 deeds (showing) where they are selling it. We think they leave there and (go) to Pinetown."

Willard's ideas may seem a bit far-fetched to some listeners, but as his story continues, other ideas he broaches make his speculation seem more plausible.

"My oldest English family was traced to the surname Boston," said Charles Shepard, who attended the recent seminar presented by Willard at Southside School and believes he is a descendant of the Mattamuskeet Indians. "In 1790, there was only two people that had only one name in Hyde County; they were both Bostons."
Shepard also points out, "In Masschuesetts, on Nantuckeet, there was a trial for, and Indians named, Boston, who was a whaler on a ship owned by a man with the name Swain. While they were out (at sea), the state signed into law (a bill) making slavery illegal and Boston, an Indian, was given his wages. A court case ensued and led to all slaves being freed in the state of Masschuesetts.

"The whaling ships would run from Nantuckeet to Cape Hatteras, and they would always look for safe houses," he continued. "A whaler Indian stole a book from a man named Zephania Pinkham, who came to North Carolina. They always went to the nearest Indian village."
That's where the first deed Willard found comes into play.

Elizabeth Elks deeded lands of the native Indians "to Nate Pinkham, (including) a parcel of land known as Indian lands," Chocowinity resident and East Carolina University student Emily Elks noted, reading from the deed.

After providing a description of the area involved, she notes the deed mentions "the whole of the Indian lands."

At the conclusion of Emily Elks' reading of the deed at a recent seminar at Southside High School, Barbara Pinkham, also from Beaufort County, interjected, "Nathaniel - Nate on this deed -- I found out his father, Zephania, was a whaler. I found a will that Zephania left to Nate."

From there, the family lineage was easy to trace; the descendants end up in the present-day communities of Free Union and Pinetown.

Willard believes the "Beechland Indians" moved inland as well.

Shepard has deeds showing that his ancestors moved near the same area, as well.

"Both of my parents are from the Free Union area," Shepard said, "On Whelch's Creek near the Washington/Martin County line, there Moratoc Indians in 1586, and the last of them from 1680 to 1690. In 1685, the Croatan Indians came from Manteo to the area and, in 1687, the Tuscaurora moved in with the Croatan."
Chwe'n,
Yeah, thats a good one. I can see parts of it being true, or atleast partially correct. That last sentence is hard to swallow though, because as you know, I believe that Croatan and Tuscarora were the same, so moving together is plausible, but it would only mean two or more villages coming together.
What is your take on it?

Ooneh,
Chris
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