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Old 08-11-2005, 09:38 AM   #1
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The Mascot Issue - Need Re-enforcements!

Ok, I'm getting hammered on this new policy by my friends pretty hard! Need some help with some of thier arguements since I'm not an expert on the mascot issue!

1. It was argued to me that ESPN and the NY Time (seperately) have conducted surveys of American Indians abou the mascot issue. The results of these surveys show that most Indians don't mind teams such as the Cleveland Indians and Redskins. Anyone seen these? Or have you seen other surveys that show otherwise?

2. The next arguement they are throwing at me is that this is just a slippery slope of liberalism. If we start changing mascots and team names of Indians, then we need to change city names, state names, and on and on.

3. Another one-There are so many more pressing issues for American Indians and the US, why worry with team names!

4. Mascots such as the FSU's is very accurate and has the tribe's approval. Does anyone know if they STILL have tribal approval? What about the Oklahoma Seminoles? What is there stance? Have any tribes put out statements about this issue?

Thanks for the help!
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Old 08-11-2005, 09:54 AM   #2
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Seminole's stance

Paul, here's three articles which appeared in Indianz.com about the Seminoles and their respective stances on this issue:

Indianz.Com. In Print.
URL: http://www.indianz.com/News/2005/009106.asp
Seminole Tribe doesn't have problem with mascots
TUESDAY, JULY 5, 2005


The Seminole Tribe of Florida doesn't object to the use of Indians as sports mascots, the tribe's general counsel said.
In a letter to the NCAA's Minority Opportunities and Interests Committee, counsel Jim Shore said the tribe supports Florida State University's "Seminoles" mascot. But the tribe doesn't care the the Atlanta Braves, Cleveland Indians, Kansas City Chiefs and the Washington Redskins either.
"We have bigger things on our agenda, like the health, education and housing of our own tribal members," Shore wrote, The South Florida Sun-Sentinel reported.
Other tribes and other Indian activists oppose the mascots. The Seminole Nation of Oklahoma told the NCAA that it doesn't support the "Seminoles.'

Indianz.Com. In Print.
URL: http://www.indianz.com/News/2005/008920.asp
Seminole Nation opposes FSU's 'Seminoles' mascot
THURSDAY, JUNE 23, 2005


The Seminole Nation of Oklahoma opposes the use of Florida State University''s use of "Seminoles" as a nickname and mascot, council member David Narcomey said.
Narcomey said the Seminole Nation's council plans to pass a resolution opposing the mascot. He criticized the Seminole Tribe of Florida for supporting the name.
"As far as the complexity of the mascot issue and the harm it brings, they don't seem to have an understanding that should be there," Narcomey told USA Today . "Their understanding is just that of the average non-Indian person."
The NCAA's Minority Interests and Opportunities Committee is considering tribal views at is looks at the Indian imagery used by over 30 schools. But an outright ban is not an option, said the committee's chairman.

Indianz.Com. In Print.
URL: http://www.indianz.com/News/2005/008199.asp
FSU defends use of 'Seminole' mascot in NCAA letter
TUESDAY, MAY 17, 2005


Florida State University has submitted a three-page letter to the NCAA's Minority Opportunities and Interests Committee that defends the school's "Seminole" name and Chief Osceola and Renegade mascots.
The letter says the Seminole Tribe endorses the name and mascots. "Under the principles of tribal sovereignty, the Seminole Tribe of Florida's elected leadership has determined that it supports our activities and use of the Seminole name," FSU President T.K. Wetherell wrote, The Tallahassee Democrat reported.
The NCAA will be reviewing the submission and 29 others to determine whether the Indian mascots are appropriate.
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Old 08-11-2005, 09:58 AM   #3
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Sag Chips support name

Here's another article:

Indianz.Com. In Print.
URL: http://www.indianz.com/News/2005/007586.asp


Saginaw Chippewa Tribe supports CMU nickname
Wednesday, April 13, 2005


The National Collegiate Athletic Association has asked 31 schools to justify their use of Indian-related mascots, logos and nicknames but officials at Central Michigan University say they have support for their "Chippewa" nickname.
The Saginaw Chippewa Tribe passed a resolution in 1988 in support of the nickname. The following year, the school dropped its use of Indian mascots or depictions.
Other schools asked to review their names include the University of North Carolina at Pembroke, which has a "Braves" nickname and logo. The school was founded exclusively for Indians and about 20 percent of the student body is Native.
The University of North Dakota's "Fighting Sioux" nickname and logo is opposed by Native students and alumni and area Sioux tribes.
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Old 08-11-2005, 10:00 AM   #4
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1. ever hear of that saying there are "lies, damned lies and statistics.." oh ny times you say? well.. we gotta believe em theyve never told any lies...hmmmm

2. gee i wonder what the natives called their homelands.. and rivers, mountians and other places before the whiteman came... oh thats right.. everything was nameless.. i guess we shouldnt change things...

3. hey look over there!

4. i dunno..maybe im going out on a limb here ... but maybe we should ask them?

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Old 08-11-2005, 10:03 AM   #5
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I'll opine, it's what I'm good at.

1. It was argued to me that ESPN and the NY Time (seperately) have conducted surveys of American Indians abou the mascot issue. The results of these surveys show that most Indians don't mind teams such as the Cleveland Indians and Redskins. Anyone seen these? Or have you seen other surveys that show otherwise?

I can do a survey of 17 Polish dudes who like to tell Polack jokes and infer that my people take no offense at that. Offense is individual and no way a simple survey (especially by espn who's commentators didn't know that steroids are everyones favorite candy in the big leagues). Surveys can be done to prove anything.

2. The next arguement they are throwing at me is that this is just a slippery slope of liberalism. If we start changing mascots and team names of Indians, then we need to change city names, state names, and on and on.

Liberalism and anti-americanism and the entire Democratic party go hand in hand. Showing respect for other people, by not using racist terms for them as a mascot for a sports team, is as conservative as it gets. We're CLIMBING the slippery slope of respect when we change these names.

3. Another one-There are so many more pressing issues for American Indians and the US, why worry with team names!

Taking down an old wall, makes putting the new one in it's place MUCH EASIER. Every road starts somewhere and even tho it may seem un-important, it would be a great shot in the arm for natives if the majority of the U.S. population had more respect for them and it would make other goals they have to win, much more attainable.

4. Mascots such as the FSU's is very accurate and has the tribe's approval. Does anyone know if they STILL have tribal approval? What about the Oklahoma Seminoles? What is there stance? Have any tribes put out statements about this issue?

If the tribe approves without the appropriate sponsorship fees that's their problem. They should also have some serious advertising at all FSU games directing the fans to other issues where they could help. Imagine if all the FSU fans pulled in and did something constructive for the tribe.


All else fails, question their manhood in front of the office women and put them on the run. :)
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Old 08-11-2005, 10:48 AM   #6
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According to my research, the survey in question appeared in the March 4, 2002 issue of Sports Illustrated.

From a seperate website talking about mascots, the following was said about that survey and its results:

According to the Sports Illustrated survey, 87 percent of American Indians who lived off Indian reservations did not object to Native American mascots or nicknames. Of the Indians who lived on reservations, 67 percent were not bothered by the nicknames, while 33 percent opposed them.
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Old 08-11-2005, 01:28 PM   #7
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All I know is that:

1. We are not automobiles!

2. We are not mascots!

3. We are not mutant wolves!

4. We are not wasicu girls with the last name Fanning!
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Old 08-11-2005, 03:39 PM   #8
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http://www.sptimes.com/2005/08/10/St...ppeal_ma.shtml
Trustees to appeal mascot policy
By STEVE BOUSQUET, Times Staff Writer
Published August 10, 2005

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

TALLAHASSEE - Enraged Florida State University leaders vowed Wednesday to fight an NCAA finding that its Seminole symbols are "hostile and abusive" to Native Americans.

Meeting in emergency session Wednesday, trustees voted to appeal the policy banning use of Indian symbols at championship events starting in February. They also will ask the governing board of college sports to show what power it had to issue its decision, and directed lawyer Barry Richard to sue the NCAA if needed.

"We are highly insulted by this NCAA action," said Jim Smith, a lawyer, lobbyist, former attorney general and FSU graduate who heads the trustees. "We will not stand by and let this happen without a fight."

The NCAA order, issued a week ago, has galvanized a politically powerful network of FSU boosters, legislators, members of Congress and Gov. Jeb Bush, who called the NCAA edict "a really stupid decision."

FSU President T.K. Wetherell emphasized that the Seminole Tribe of Florida has formally endorsed the use of images such as Chief Osceola, who rides an Appaloosa named Renegade to midfield at home football games.

He said FSU awards academic scholarships to children of tribe members, and the tribe plays a role in all university commencement exercises. For emphasis, the FSU president played a three-minute video showing the Seminole tribal council adopting a resolution in June in support of the "head logo" and other symbols FSU has used for five decades.

In its appeal, Florida State will seek relief from the NCAA Executive Committee, the same panel that issued the original order. Trustee John Thrasher called that a "chicken guarding the chicken coop kind of thing."

Wetherell called it "particularly offensive" that FSU was not given a chance to challenge the policy beforehand, but the NCAA says it allowed Florida State to submit evidence on its behalf last spring.

In an April 29 letter, FSU cited its "close relationship" with the tribe, including tribe participation in homecoming parades and the use of headdresses and other designs.

Those arguments apparently carried little weight with the NCAA.

[Last modified August 10, 2005, 18:37:02]
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Old 08-12-2005, 02:24 AM   #9
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Old 08-12-2005, 11:47 AM   #10
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Update on Seminole Nation stance:

Indianz.Com. In Print.
URL: http://www.indianz.com/News/2005/009785.asp


Seminole Nation won't oppose FSU 'Seminoles' mascot
Friday, August 12, 2005


The Seminole Nation of Oklahoma does not oppose the "Seminoles" mascot of Florida State University, top tribal officials said.
The tribe's incoming principal chief and attorney general said statements in opposition to the mascot were not authorized. David Narcomey, a council member, has been speaking out against the "Seminoles."
The tribe's stance is likely to help the school in its challenge to the NCAA's new policy on mascots. NCAA officials indicated they would grant FSU's appeal.
The Seminole Tribe of Florida has passed a resolution to support the mascot and name. The Seminole Nation rejected a resolution against the mascot.
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Old 08-12-2005, 12:22 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul G
Ok, I'm getting hammered on this new policy by my friends pretty hard! Need some help with some of thier arguements since I'm not an expert on the mascot issue!

1. It was argued to me that ESPN and the NY Time (seperately) have conducted surveys of American Indians abou the mascot issue. The results of these surveys show that most Indians don't mind teams such as the Cleveland Indians and Redskins. Anyone seen these? Or have you seen other surveys that show otherwise?

2. The next arguement they are throwing at me is that this is just a slippery slope of liberalism. If we start changing mascots and team names of Indians, then we need to change city names, state names, and on and on.

3. Another one-There are so many more pressing issues for American Indians and the US, why worry with team names!

4. Mascots such as the FSU's is very accurate and has the tribe's approval. Does anyone know if they STILL have tribal approval? What about the Oklahoma Seminoles? What is there stance? Have any tribes put out statements about this issue?

Thanks for the help!
1.) I agree with MOTS surveys and statistics can be shown to say anything depending on Who and Where you survey! I keep hearing that they dont mind, I would like to know who was surveyed? I always wonder that when they do these surveys cause I am Like they didnt ask me???? Did they ask you? Did they ask anyone here or that you know?

2.) I dont understand how they can compare a race of people to states and city names? Are they hurting the feelings of locations?

3.) Why worry when there are so many other things? Why not? Change whatever you can change. Wars are won by one battle at a time...

4.) Did they survey them?
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Old 08-12-2005, 12:48 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~pathwalker~
1.) I agree with MOTS surveys and statistics can be shown to say anything depending on Who and Where you survey! I keep hearing that they dont mind, I would like to know who was surveyed? I always wonder that when they do these surveys cause I am Like they didnt ask me???? Did they ask you? Did they ask anyone here or that you know?
Good point, pw, I have never been asked my opinion on any kind of survey used in the news. Mots is absolutely right on this one. Surveys represent what ever the individual/group wants it to represent. How can one form an opinion or make an informed decision if only a small group of individuals are represented?

From what I have read not all ndn's support this issue. To me the term "redskin" is offensive and the caricature the Braves utilize as their mascot is offensive.

You won't see any other minority exploited in this fashion......if they were, boy all heck would break loose!
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Old 08-12-2005, 12:58 PM   #13
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My question is how long before this type of thing permeates into high schools? And how many Indian high schools do we know that have Indian mascots? LOTS!! What's going to happen then.
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Old 08-12-2005, 02:44 PM   #14
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what i would tell them is that do you see names like "the florida crackers" or "the cleveland niggers" or "washington japs" or "the california tree huggers" oh say "the a-rab a-habs" ? people ONLY think its ok to use offensive mascots IF they are only offensive to native americans. its obviously a double standard. so next time someone says somethin like that to you id just pick one for their race and say "well i guess im naming my next sports team 'the White Trashs'". Most likely their attitude will change!
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Old 08-12-2005, 02:52 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T Dave
1. It was argued to me that ESPN and the NY Time (seperately) have conducted surveys of American Indians abou the mascot issue. The results of these surveys show that most Indians don't mind teams such as the Cleveland Indians and Redskins. Anyone seen these? Or have you seen other surveys that show otherwise?

I can do a survey of 17 Polish dudes who like to tell Polack jokes and infer that my people take no offense at that. Offense is individual and no way a simple survey (especially by espn who's commentators didn't know that steroids are everyones favorite candy in the big leagues). Surveys can be done to prove anything.

2. The next arguement they are throwing at me is that this is just a slippery slope of liberalism. If we start changing mascots and team names of Indians, then we need to change city names, state names, and on and on.

Liberalism and anti-americanism and the entire Democratic party go hand in hand. Showing respect for other people, by not using racist terms for them as a mascot for a sports team, is as conservative as it gets. We're CLIMBING the slippery slope of respect when we change these names.

3. Another one-There are so many more pressing issues for American Indians and the US, why worry with team names!

Taking down an old wall, makes putting the new one in it's place MUCH EASIER. Every road starts somewhere and even tho it may seem un-important, it would be a great shot in the arm for natives if the majority of the U.S. population had more respect for them and it would make other goals they have to win, much more attainable.

4. Mascots such as the FSU's is very accurate and has the tribe's approval. Does anyone know if they STILL have tribal approval? What about the Oklahoma Seminoles? What is there stance? Have any tribes put out statements about this issue?

If the tribe approves without the appropriate sponsorship fees that's their problem. They should also have some serious advertising at all FSU games directing the fans to other issues where they could help. Imagine if all the FSU fans pulled in and did something constructive for the tribe.


All else fails, question their manhood in front of the office women and put them on the run. :)

I made alot of these points a year or so ago when we had a huge discussion this and I got blasted for it! ROFLMAO! My thing about the sports illustrated survey was WHO TOOK IT? Was it online, did they just go up and down the street asking.. Hey dude, you indin? Did they go to reservations? Hang out in the grocery store or in front of Walmart and say.. excuse me.. are you native american, can you do a survey for me real quick?
I know there are those that don't give a rat's patoot and those that don't say if it bothers them or not, only that they feel there are bigger issues to tackle or focus on... but even with them, I can't see the latter saying.. I'm ok with you naming teams redskins and dancing around in a cheap war bonnet waving a tomahawk and shouting woo woo.
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Old 08-12-2005, 03:11 PM   #16
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Here we've got a couple of Oklahoma Cherohonkees without a clue:

I am 1/16th Cherokee, by looking at me you can't tell but I do have Indian in me. I think it's stupid to try and remove the mascots. I am sick of all the PC. People trying to take In God we trust off money, trying to stop the celebration of holidays etc. People will always complain about something. This is so stupid I refuse to waste another sentence on it.

http://www.soonerfans.com/forums/showthread.php?t=44921

Who's mocking the tribes outside of the obvious Redskin and Savage moniker? Last time I checked, schools using Native American sysmbols did not display logos of their mascot huffing paint; or have their mascot working a blackjack table; or have a jersey with a Seminole brave scalping a white man or raping his wife. Where's the negative? Is the tomahawk chop any worse than "pistols up" or "pistols firing" or whatever those goofy Tech and OSU fans do? Both are pantomiming the use of deadly weapons.

As far as the plight of the Native American being marginalzed by a romantic idea of the noble warrior, who is to blame? The tribes have been given land. They have been given money. They receive free health care to this day (my kids do). Their children receive a free college education from any Oklahoma university. Their mothers receive free food to supplement what they buy to ensure the children have balanced meals. White "indifference?"

At some point, the tribe members are going to have to do some of the legwork themselves. It's hard to get off your *** when you're too busy pointing an accusing finger with both hands. Your previous post is well-written, but it's well-written hogwash.


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Old 08-12-2005, 03:25 PM   #17
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I always wonder about that statement: "I got Indian in me." Where are they hiding him/her? Why won't they let them out so they can go back to their people? I can even take it further and be crude but that's for the 49!
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Old 08-12-2005, 04:00 PM   #18
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Here is a link to an article where they BANNED the use of redskins...http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8171804/
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Old 08-12-2005, 04:17 PM   #19
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if you want to see a website dedicated to the reason why "redskin" is the most offensive term pm me.....not sure if it would be considered too graphic to post the link here, so playing it safe..........
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Old 08-12-2005, 04:20 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by natureluvr
if you want to see a website dedicated to the reason why "redskin" is the most offensive term pm me.....not sure if it would be considered too graphic to post the link here, so playing it safe..........

Here's my link:

http://w3.gorge.net/feralcat/Redskin.html
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