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Old 08-12-2005, 04:26 PM   #21
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Theres no way to download??? I can only click on site index. are you suppose to be able to download and listen?
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Old 08-12-2005, 04:27 PM   #22
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yup, I am listenin' right now
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Old 08-12-2005, 04:32 PM   #23
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those ppl that have "indian in them" are retarded. Now, I "have white in me" and it doesnt offend me if someone calls someone a racial name for white ppl, or say they hate white ppl, ect ect but that doesnt mean it wouldnt offend a "real" white person!
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"So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart. Trouble no one about their religion; respect others in their view, and demand that they respect yours. Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long and its purpose in the service of your people. Prepare a noble death song for the day when you go over the great divide. Always give a word or a sign of salute when meeting or passing a friend, even a stranger, when in a lonely place. Show respect to all people and grovel to none.

When you arise in the morning give thanks for the food and for the joy of living. If you see no reason for giving thanks, the fault lies only in yourself. Abuse no one and nothing, for abuse turns the wise ones to fools and robs the spirit of its vision. When it comes your time to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with the fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song and die like a hero going home."

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Old 08-12-2005, 04:38 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~pathwalker~
Theres no way to download??? I can only click on site index. are you suppose to be able to download and listen?
Once on the site one should be able to just listen:

http://w3.gorge.net/feralcat/Redskin.html


Do you want to know the true meaning of redskin?
The term used to refer to American Indians...the
same one used by a national sports team....the same
term that American Indians protest?

It's not about skin color. It's about atrocities
committed against this nation's first people. So, if
you are interested in truth....you'll take the
time to listen. The time it takes to download,
depends upon your internet connection. It will
be a longer wait for dialup - but if you really
want to learn truth, you'll take the time to listen.

It is a short time to wait, for a valuable lesson
in truth-the real truth. Is 8-10 minutes too long
of a time to wait, to learn the truth?

The voice you hear is Rev. Goat Carson....his
ballad will teach you the truth about what redskin
really means. If you dare to listen to truth.

Dare to listen!
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Old 08-12-2005, 04:38 PM   #25
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well just to be a smart azz, I only got blood, guts and a skeleton in me...lol!

sorry had to say it! j/k

Any kind of racial slur is offensive, just my 2 cents...............
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Old 08-12-2005, 04:40 PM   #26
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well any racial slur thats not directed to white ppl is offensive to me LOL for some bizzare reason i couldnt imagine why racism against whites doesnt seem to bother me much. but it is wrong anyway
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"So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart. Trouble no one about their religion; respect others in their view, and demand that they respect yours. Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long and its purpose in the service of your people. Prepare a noble death song for the day when you go over the great divide. Always give a word or a sign of salute when meeting or passing a friend, even a stranger, when in a lonely place. Show respect to all people and grovel to none.

When you arise in the morning give thanks for the food and for the joy of living. If you see no reason for giving thanks, the fault lies only in yourself. Abuse no one and nothing, for abuse turns the wise ones to fools and robs the spirit of its vision. When it comes your time to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with the fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song and die like a hero going home."

-Tecumseh
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Old 08-12-2005, 04:52 PM   #27
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MY SON HAD TURNED DOWN THE VOLUME ON MY PUTER. THANX. I have heard it now.
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Old 08-12-2005, 09:18 PM   #28
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************************************************** ************
This Message Is Reprinted Under The Fair Use
Doctrine Of International Copyright Law:
_http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.html_
(http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.html)
************************************************** ************

FROM: INDIAN COUNTRY TODAY NEWSPAPER

_http://www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=1096411390_
(http://www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=1096411390)

Harjo: The NCAA is learning what it's like to be Indian

(javascript:EmailWindow();) Posted: August 11, 2005 by: _Suzan Shown Harjo_
(http://www.indiancountry.com/author.cfm?id=26) / Indian Country Today
The NCAA is learning what it's like to be mocked, cartooned, lampooned
and vilified - in short, what it's like to be Indian in the world of sports.

After only days of this treatment, the NCAA should appreciate even more
keenly the importance of their decision to the health, safety and emotional
well-being of Native and non-Native students, who are and should be their first
concern.

The NCAA decided that their teams can represent themselves as they will at
home, but they need to be on their best behavior in public. It's a mature
decision that provides an instruction about what is and is not appropriate,
fitting and proper for good sports and champions.

It's the rough equivalent of the civil rights movement sending the message
that the N-word is not acceptable in polite society. Is this PC? Yes, as
someone said long ago, it's Plain Courtesy.

Some NCAA schools had the decency to voluntarily drop their ''Indian''
references before the decision was forced on them. Others are squealing like stuck
pigs and calling the NCAA decision-makers every name in every book, and
then some.

Schools that have appropriated specific tribal names and symbols are pushing
their Indians out front to say how proud they are to be mascots and how well
their schools treat them, and to accuse the NCAA of making an anti-Indian
decision.

Actually, the decision is pro-Indian - the human being, not the mascot - but
a lot of folks just can't tell the difference.

Most of the commentators on this issue lump ''Indian'' sports references in
with the bears, tigers, banana slugs, geoducks and leprechauns. They don't
seem to notice that they are species hopping from humans to creatures and
mythical beings, and that only the ''Indians'' are based on living people.

A few of the pundits feel they have to point out that the ''Indian'' sports
references aren't real, as if the NCAA and Native people thought they were.

And, they come up with the ever-popular question: don't you have more
important things to do for American Indians? No one who's ever asked that question
is doing anything to help Native people.

Here's my question to everyone who's in a dither about the NCAA's decision:
don't you have anything better to do than hang on to these toys of racism?

Some Native people are cutting deals with schools that haven't given them
more than a handful of scholarships in decades and haven't bothered to ask
before now if it's OK to use their names, heroes and symbols. The University of
Illinois at Urbana-Champaign would likely try to bargain with the local
Native nations, if there were any left in the state.

The excuse from the Native deal-makers in Florida, Michigan, Oklahoma and
Utah is this: if we give them what they want for sports, they'll leave our
casinos and land alone.

Non-Native deal-makers are turning this into a states' rights issue, daring
the NCAA to come into their state schools and upset their fine Indian
citizens. (Any Native people who object to being mascotted or tokenized are
subjected to the standard anti-Indian name-calling and slurs.)

Florida State University and the state politicians are so desperate for
tribal political cover that the Seminoles should demand that the school change
its name to Florida Seminole University. It wouldn't even have to change its
initials. While they're at it, FSU could call its team the ''Floridians'' and
use St. Augustine as its mascot.

There is dignity and respect in a school's name, but a mascot is not
dignified or respected.

It is shameful that the mighty Osceola is portrayed as a mascot. He is
represented with fakey ''war paint,'' which he never wore; on an Appaloosa horse,
which he never rode; with a Plains Indian war lance, which he never used;
acting the fool, which he never was; and performing for non-Indians - which he
never, ever did.

FSU may well get its way. They've twisted arms and gained support from the
Florida and Oklahoma Seminole governmental leaders, who now have the hard job
of explaining to the Seminole people why their nationhood is to be diminished
and their children to be raised as mascots.

You can bet that FSU would not dare to approach other countries or people of
other races to be their new team name or mascot. Imagine the reaction to
renaming the team ''Cuba'' or ''Cubans.'' Would the Utah ''Mormons'' be embraced
warmly by the actual Mormon people?

Happily, there is a growing consensus about most of the ''Indian'' names -
''Redskins,'' ''Savages'' and other slurs have to go. The generic names are no
longer acceptable if they have a ''Native'' context.

Former Sen. Ben Nighthorse Campbell called the NCAA's decision ''a major
step forward'' and ''a positive, important decision.''

Campbell, who is Cheyenne, said, ''A lot of people need help understanding
that it's wrong to use any derogatory name for a sports team. When I explain
to African-Americans that it would be like a team called the 'Washington
Darkies,' they understand. When I ask Hispanics how they would feel about a team
called the 'Spics,' they understand.''

Campbell served in the House from 1987 to 1993 and then in the Senate until
this year. ''One way I explained this problem to colleagues in Congress was
through legislation,'' he said.

''I introduced a bill that would have prevented the 'Washington Redskins'
from using federal property [the RFK Stadium in Washington, D.C.]. So Jack Kent
Cooke [the team's owner] picked up and moved to Virginia before we could get
it passed.''

Campbell's bill had solid co-sponsors, including civil rights luminary Rep.
John Lewis, D-Ga., and employed the same approach and stadium that were used
by the Kennedy Administration in 1962, when it forced desegregation by
withholding approval of the federal lease renewal. The Washington football club was
the last in the NFL to allow African-Americans to play on its team.

''The NCAA decision, coupled with the recent decision in the case about the
Washington team's name, is very significant,'' said Walter R. Echo-Hawk, who
is an attorney for the Indian friends of the court in the lawsuit, Harjo et
al. v. Pro Football, Inc. (This writer is, ahem, that Harjo.)

Echo-Hawk, who is Pawnee and a senior attorney with the Native American
Rights Fund, represents the National Congress of American Indians, National
Indian Education Association, National Indian Youth Council and the Tulsa Indian
Coalition Against Racism in the case.

''These two decisions,'' said Echo-Hawk, ''could mark a turning point in
this longstanding campaign to end this form of racism.''

The NCAA can take comfort in knowing that the major national Native
organizations applaud their decision. Unfortunately, the NCAA also knows how it is to
be booed and hissed by loud, mean fanatics.

Welcome to our world, where courage is not only prized, but essential in
order to maintain a position of honor.

Suzan Shown Harjo, Cheyenne and Hodulgee Muscogee, is president of the
Morning Star Institute in Washington, D.C., and a columnist for Indian Country
Today.
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Old 08-12-2005, 09:20 PM   #29
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************************************************** ************


FROM: INDIAN COUNTRY TODAY NEWSPAPER

_http://www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=1096411388_
(http://www.indiancountry.com/content.cfm?id=1096411388)

Abusive mascots still a serious issue

(javascript:PrintWindow();) Posted: August 11, 2005 by: _Editors Report_
(http://www.indiancountry.com/author.cfm?id=471) / Indian Country Today
Persistence is the operative principle in the fight to convince the
sporting world that it is doing a disservice to American Indian and Native
children by labeling teams and mascots with Indian nicknames and imagery.

It speaks to American obtuseness that so many sports people and media are so
thick-headed about the brazen insult and the easy dismissal of the
predominate Indian position on the subject. The national media channels will sometimes
put on a serious Indian viewpoint, but then assume the issue is bogus and
not worth respecting.

Now comes forward the National Collegiate Athletic Association Executive
Committee to take a principled stance in the part of the sports season they
control - post-season play - that ''abusive'' or ''insulting'' names will not be
allowed billing. The NCAA has identified 18 nicknames or mascots as ''hostile
or abusive'' to Native peoples. In what some are calling a small,
incremental step, others are announcing it as a victory ''in the right direction.''

One certain outcome: the NCAA has touched off a firestorm that it will
hopefully weather with courage and dignity.

The issue of racial or ethic labeling, particularly when epithets are used
regularly in public life, is a cause for grave concern, regardless of how the
national media will treat the subject. For an American Indian viewpoint,
Cindy La Marr, executive director of Capitol Area Indian Resources in Sacramento
and former head of the National Indian Education Association, pointed out the
danger of identifying ethnic identities with win-lose, emotional situations
such as sports. This use of stereotypes, she summed it up, ''harms our
children.''

Says the NCAA statement: ''Colleges and universities may adopt any mascot
that they wish, as that is an institutional matter. But as a national
association, we believe that mascots, nicknames or images deemed hostile or abusive in
terms of race, ethnicity or national origin should not be visible at the
championship events that we control.''

Florida Gov. Jeb Bush (who, by the way, laments the fact that he can't tax
Indians), among others, is denouncing the NCAA decision, which comes in the
same vein as the recent ruling by the U.S. Court of Appeals in Washington, D.C.
that revived the suit against the Washington Redskins' trademark of a
racially derogatory mascot. That one is the result of a tenacious pursuit by Indian
Country Today columnist Suzan Shown Harjo, et al., including several other
noted American Indians who objected to the use of the derogatory term
''redskins'' as a brand name by the football franchise of the country's capital.
Beyond a reasonable doubt, plaintiffs in the case proved the clearly insulting
and demeaning nature of the term in their lives and in the lives of so many
other American Indians throughout history.

Many are up in arms about both the slow but sure trend toward honoring
general American Indian wishes on this subject. In Jeb Bush's state, Florida State
President T.K. Wetherel (who, to be fair, has a direct relationship with a
tribal base) called the NCAA's decision ''outrageous and insulting.'' He
pointed to a resolution by the tribal council of the Seminole Tribe of Florida
expressing support of the use of its name.

In Wetherel's case he has Seminole Tribal Council President Max Osceola in
his corner. It's a pretty unique ''permission'' arrangement, however,
apparently also true for the Utah Utes. In both of these rather unique cases, plenty
of tribal members and related tribes disagree with the granting of permission
for teams to use the names.

Many universities defend themselves with the argument that the use of Indian
team and mascot names constitutes institutional tradition. Again, the
persistence of an Indian campaigner: ''Florida State University's tradition is that
it trademarked its team's name, 'Seminoles,' even though the Seminoles
predate the coming of the Europeans and the founding of the school,'' wrote Harjo.
''FSU reduced a great Seminole hero, Osceola, to a sports mascot and further
'honored' his memory by portraying him on the football field as a Plains
Indian, complete with horse and feathered war lance.''

Of course, for the other nearly 1,000 teams in both professional and student
athletics still using American Indian symbols and nicknames, including most
of the 18 specified in the NCAA's new regulation, there is no such permission
or arrangement, and each case within the whole suspect practice deserves
serious scrutiny.

The first major university to change its team name - from the ''Indians'' to
the ''Cardinal'' - was Stanford, in 1972. It did so after 55 Indian students
challenged the national exposure of the racialist term upon consecutive Rose
Bowl wins in 1970 and 1971.

Since 1970, two-thirds (approximately 2,000) of the known use of such names
has disappeared. One-third remains to be changed or moderated, but this is a
trend moving in the right direction.

The challenges to wanton depiction of Indian images and names go on, despite
how they irritate some sports commentators. A legislative attempt to ban the
use of ''redskins'' from use by the Calaveras, Chowchilla Union, Colusa,
Gustine and Tulare Union high schools, in California, failed last year (Gov.
Arnold Schwarzenegger vetoed the bill) but is a bill in the books again this
year. In 2001, the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights requested that non-Native
schools drop the use of Native images and team names. As of August 2008, the
uniforms of cheerleaders, dance teams and band members at NCAA championship
sites must drop the display of such nicknames. The now constant threat of
potential controversy has many teams with American Indian mascots shy of their own
names. Often these, such as the ''Chief Illini'' at the University of
Illinois, are ''used only at home games,'' according to an article by Los Angeles
Times writer Robyn Norwood.

The schools prohibited at post-season NCAA games from using American Indian
imagery or references in their nicknames, logos or mascots are: Alcorn State
University (Braves); Central Michigan University (Chippewas); Catawba College
(Indians); Florida State University (Seminoles); Midwestern State University
(Indians); University of Utah (Utes); Indiana University - Pennsylvania
(Indians); Carthage College (Redmen); Bradley University (Braves); Arkansas State
University (Indians); Chowan College (Braves); University of Illinois
(Illini); University of Louisiana-Monroe (Indians); McMurry University (Indians);
Mississippi College (Choctaws); Newberry College (Indians); University of
North Dakota (Fighting Sioux); Southeastern Oklahoma State University (Savages).

They represent 18 more places in the country where the discussion on the use
of Indian stereotypes and on the surviving reality of tribal peoples is
guaranteed. Despite the easy dismissal of general as well as private Indian
feelings on this subject by major media, the debate must be joined on offensive
language that involves actual peoples and ethnic sensibility. It is never
proper to insult whole peoples wantonly, and such discourse diminishes the society
that allows it. Using the most polite but firm tone possible, raising our
critique against inappropriate and sometimes obnoxious racial identifiers is
very much welcome at this time in history.

The NCAA deserves all of Indian country's appreciation and respect.
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Old 08-13-2005, 12:47 AM   #30
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For more support and info see this link:
http://www.main.nc.us/wncceib/IndianMascotIssue.htm
plenty of good info and arguements
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Old 08-13-2005, 02:10 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul G
1. ... The results of these surveys show that most Indians don't mind teams such as the Cleveland Indians and Redskins....

I can't speak for everyone else, but I won't care if it were just mascots. But mascots are symptomatic of a larger issue.

Since the beginning American culture has created images of the Indians as other. These distorted images have become woven into fabric of the culture. Children practically internalize these fabricated Indians with their mother's milk. By three a colleague's son could: sing Ten little Indians; tell me I is for Indian; and know that when he was misbehaving he was acting like a "wild Indian". In time, he'll read the Little House books or some other colonial narrative, learning to fear the "hostile" Indian. TV will leave him believing we all dress in feathers, rode off into history's sunset in the 1800's, have casinos, or hippie-on-LSD-style visions. Possibly, he'll join an organization that teaches whitewashed "Indian lore" and encourages participation in a phony tribal culture to instill dominant culture ideas of manhood and fun. And it is unlikely that during this maturation process he'll have any experiences with Native people to counter these perceptions.

Then when he is an adult and encounters a genuine Native person who fails to conform to his conception of Indian-ness, the cognitive dissonance will be sufficient to force him not change his preconceptions, but challenge the authenticity of the Native person's experience. We've all heard non-Indians opining about how casinos will destroy Indian culture, or how if we had the spirit of our ancestors we'd share our sacred things. In short the whole "if you ain't what I expect (or want), you ain't real" argument.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul G
3. ...There are so many more pressing issues for American Indians and the US, why worry with team names!

Non-Indian children aren't the only ones who internalize these images. Our own children grow up soaked in the same intellectual broth. They may (or sadly may not) have experiences that counter some of the images that the dominant culture force-feeds them. But hear a lie often enough and it becomes truth. It demands a tremendous strength on the part of young children to resist. Too often the resistance leaves a legacy of internalized shame, pain and oppression.

In the year I got my PhD, out of several thousand PhD's in the USA granted in chemistry, one -- let me repeat that: one -- was granted to a Native American. And the statistics ten years later are no better. This is not parity. There are disincentives all along the way for Native students based in distorted perceptions of Native people and their competencies and preferences. When I hear Indian children tell me they can't become scientists because it's too hard or not an Indian activity, I must conclude some of these sterotypes of a culture-based inadequacy and appropriateness have become internalized.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul G
4. Mascots such as the FSU's is very accurate and has the tribe's approval....

OK, maybe some mascots are accurate, but most aren't. What about the fans that wear chicken feather headdresses, neon face paint and carry rubber tomahawks? Would it be an honor if fans of the Where-ever Zulus wore black face and carried a spear?

If Mammie, Sambo, and Frito-bandito are wrong, then the worst of the the mascots are clearly wrong. If we worry about TV depictions of black and Hispanic males, then we should worry about mascots -- no matter how positive they may seem.

Anyway, that's my inflated $0.02 worth.

Last edited by OLChemist; 08-13-2005 at 02:17 PM.. Reason: Faulty formatting
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Old 08-13-2005, 02:21 PM   #32
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1. It was argued to me that ESPN and the NY Time (seperately) have conducted surveys of American Indians about the mascot issue. The results of these surveys show that most Indians don't mind teams such as the Cleveland Indians and Redskins.
Has anyone thought of sending a link to this site/thread to these publications? Just a thought.....

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Old 08-17-2005, 11:30 AM   #33
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So if Native Americans are banned, are these rez schools going to have to give up their mascots too?

How many schools in NDN country have mascots like Chiefs, Indians, Braves...etc...?

Will only NDN schools be able to use these mascots? What about schools that have half native/half white populations?

I agree that mascots like Redskins and Savages are demeaning. But there's a high school in Colorado with Arapahoes as their mascots and they came up and got permission from the N. Arapaho tribe here and are very respectful about it.

There are a few "white" mascots like Cowboys, Vikings, Trojans, and Spartans that I can think of.

Didn't most of these teams take a Native American mascot cuz NDN's can KICK @SS!!!??
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Old 08-19-2005, 05:18 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul G
3.....
4. Mascots such as the FSU's is very accurate and has the tribe's approval. Does anyone know if they STILL have tribal approval? What about the Oklahoma Seminoles? What is there stance? Have any tribes put out statements about this issue?

Thanks for the help!
This maybe long> so I apoligize ahead of time

Hey Paul to answer your question about number 4 (or part of number 4). I am a member of the OK Seminoles and I do not approve of the mascot, any mascot using NAs as a symbol. The press is saying the the OK Seminoles have made a resolution for support> this is not true! There was a resolution put in front of the council a couple weeks ago to make a resolution against FSU use of the mascot but it was not passed. The way that I understand the reasoning behind that is many were worried about how it would effect the relationship between us and the Florida Seminoles. The only the reason the press seems to be getting the idea that we support FSU as a tribe is because are current chief and our newly chief elect came out and said they did not care. But two men's opinions does not reflect mine and many other OK Seminoles. (Just like many other Native people, some undestand and some don't)

I may begin to repeat myself from the other thread but...
I agree there are so many issues. But you have to look at the broader picture here. Yes, there are lots of very important things to address but as long as a caricature of Native people are dancing across fields, stadiums and schools (Even in advertising), we will never be taken seriously. The general public is bombarded by all this dehumanizing images and begin to associate us with them. NOt only this but it has become so institutionalize that people think its normal and its not. Think about the times these names were brought about or created, some before the 1950s. African Americans and the Latino and HIspanic communities have had these similiar caricatures used for advertising and such. But during the race revolution in the 1960s-70s this all changed. So why do these caricatures continue to exist for us. The public Only sees a character or cartoon (Someone that no longer exists). What makes anyone think that if they can not take us seriously about such a minor issue that they are going to really listen and take action with major ones.

I will quote you a statement from an article from the Miami Herald:
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiheral...on/12393925.htm
"OUR OPINION: INSULTING TO MAKE LIGHT OF GENOCIDE AGAINST INDIANS

Three prominent Floridians, ardent Florida State University boosters, have embarrassed all residents of the state with their insulting, ignorance-riddled comments about the infamous ''Trail of Tears'' and the Seminole Tribe of Oklahoma. They owe more than an apology to the Oklahoma Seminoles. They owe one to Floridians, too. Then the three -- state Sen. Jim King and FSU President T.K. Wetherell and trustee Robert McFarlain -- should sign up for an American-history course at the college they so errantly tried to defend.

Disparaging comments

The three indulged in incorrect and offensive comments about the Oklahoma tribe last week after the NCAA announced restrictions on college displays of American Indian nicknames and imagery, including FSU's Seminoles sports teams. Believing that the Oklahoma tribe officially opposed FSU's use of their name, while the Florida Seminole Tribe supports it, Messrs. King, Wetherell and McFarlain made disparaging comments about the Oklahomans, whose ancestors were victims of the genocidal U.S. government policy of the 1800s known as the Trail of Tears. The government force-marched thousands of Indians from their ancestral homes west to Oklahoma. Countless people died along the way in one of the country's more shameful chapters.

About 200 Seminoles escaped to Florida and waged a long war with the U.S. government. They are the ancestors of today's Florida Seminoles.

Inveighed Mr. McFarlain about the Oklahomans: ''They got run out of here, by who was it, Andrew Jackson? The Trail of Tears. The real Seminoles stayed here.'' For good measure, he added that he could ''care less what the Seminoles in Oklahoma think.'' Here's Sen. King: ''They're the ones that gave up and went to the reservation,'' about the Oklahoma tribe. President Wetherell, in a comment about the NCAA decision brought on by Indian tribes' pressure, said, ``maybe the Trail of Tears should have gone farther, I don't know.'' (Basically saying the we should have been walked until we died)

I am Seminole from OK and I am veryyyyyy insulted by these gentlemen (and I am using that term loosely) reactions and statements, and the mascots!!! These are men that hold high position jobs and work in our government. If they feel like this about my tribe or any other tribe why would they give two cents about our issues. If it is just a mascot as supports always say then why all the hatred and racist comments. Its more than that.
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Old 08-19-2005, 05:31 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Singerdad
Update on Seminole Nation stance:

Indianz.Com. In Print.
URL: http://www.indianz.com/News/2005/009785.asp


Seminole Nation won't oppose FSU 'Seminoles' mascot
Friday, August 12, 2005


The Seminole Nation of Oklahoma does not oppose the "Seminoles" mascot of Florida State University, top tribal officials said.
The tribe's incoming principal chief and attorney general said statements in opposition to the mascot were not authorized. David Narcomey, a council member, has been speaking out against the "Seminoles."
The tribe's stance is likely to help the school in its challenge to the NCAA's new policy on mascots. NCAA officials indicated they would grant FSU's appeal.
The Seminole Tribe of Florida has passed a resolution to support the mascot and name. The Seminole Nation rejected a resolution against the mascot.

In order for the press or anyone to say that the OK Seminoles support or "do not oppose" FSU there has to be a resolution by the council be passed. That has yet to happen and hopefully will not.
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Old 08-22-2005, 04:45 AM   #36
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I haven't found NY Times or ESPN surveys, but I did find one conducted by the Annenberg Public Policy Center in 2004. There are some caveats in the methdology section that are interesting.


I didn't include a direct link since the reports is a pdf. The link to the press release is about 1/4 of the way down the page.)

http://www.annenbergpublicpolicycent...eport_2004.htm
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Old 08-25-2005, 07:07 AM   #37
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Just another opinion

This is a strange issue, to say the least. I never saw any of the surveys, and was never surveyed. What I know is this, since the decision by the NCAA I have heard people saying things like “that offends me because I’m an Appalachian American.” Not to me personally, but in my presence. Then of course the conversation shifted to me, and what I thought of the decision.

It is not my place to say that the Seminoles are being offended or not, I am not Seminole. But, I have to wonder how much VIP seating is provided to the Florida Tribes hierarchy at the FSU stadium. I also have to wonder, aren’t the “Braves” and either the Times or Sports Illustrated owned by the same people?? I would like to see a survey of this nature conducted by a disinterested party in an objective fashion. I want to know how the entire indigenous culture in the country feels about this issue for real.

When people ask me what I think, I support the decision. This country for too long, has built lies to justify the way that American Indians are/were treated. If for no other reason, I’m stating that I’m tired of it. If you can’t respect the culture then just leave it alone. My family has been referred to as “redskin niggers.” It was shortened to “Redskins” because at some point it was politically incorrect to use the latter. I have seen effigies of Indians that were hung from trees with signs that say, “Murder the Indians,” and “Scalp the Warriors.” I can’t condone the farce which has been perpetrated by those without Native blood for over 450 years.

If you paint “Kill the Jew’s,” on the side of a synagogue it’s a hate crime. But, it’s just good ole’ American competition, when you show up at the local high school football game and see the same about Indians. Not to long ago many southern states removed the “Stars and Bars” from their state symbols because it was offensive to the black culture. I don’t recall being surveyed for that, and I didn’t hear as many comments about that as I have this issue. Wonder what would happen if you showed up at a sporting event and jumped around on the field wearing a pointy white hood and white robe? You'd go to jail. But heck, you can wear a war bonnet and buck skins all you want.

If nothing else, it’s about RESPECT. We are the biggest minority in this country. A country that used to be all ours. I’m proud to be a member of a Warrior society, it’s something to be revered, not used as a target for the other teams tackle. When our culture is respected for the correct values, and not the corrupted fallacies that seem to be the real foundation of this great nation, then I’ll reconsider. But until that time we all need to step back and take a long hard look at this issue.

If a team is named after a particular tribe, then it is up to them to say how they feel, and I will respect and support that. If white folks don’t have a problem being the “Fighting Irish,” for example, that’s their business. I have to believe that if the cheer leaders showed up dressed as Nun's swinging Rosaries and communion chalices around, it wouldn't happen but once! I don’t think they have been misrepresented the way Indians have, but I’m not an academic or historian.

Our ancestors and their mothers deserve better than being portrayed as a sports mascot for some group of elitist athletes whose yearly gross salary could pay the living expenses for an entire nation for the same amount of time. I don’t insult their culture, and I would appreciate the same respect! Just my opinion, and you know what they say about that!
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Old 08-25-2005, 11:46 PM   #38
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Old 08-26-2005, 01:50 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OLChemist

In the year I got my PhD, out of several thousand PhD's in the USA granted in chemistry, one -- let me repeat that: one -- was granted to a Native American. And the statistics ten years later are no better. This is not parity. There are disincentives all along the way for Native students based in distorted perceptions of Native people and their competencies and preferences. When I hear Indian children tell me they can't become scientists because it's too hard or not an Indian activity, I must conclude some of these sterotypes of a culture-based inadequacy and appropriateness have become internalized.
or doctors of medicine...but then again who needs a piece of paper to understand the universe? jk i get in trouble when i try to act smart..(is this a case in point) aye...
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Old 08-26-2005, 11:06 AM   #40
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my take

Personally, I agree that it doesn't bother me to the extent that the indian culture in some form is used as a team mascot/symbol to the extent that it is done with respect and taste. However, when the U of Illinois has a guy running around doing stunts and poses, I think that is poor. For many, seeing this idiot on the field becomes the basis of an opinion for the whole culture...they think him running around is authentic dance, and that indians look, act, and dress in that fashion.

I think using the indian as a team symbol is fine, as most team symbols are that of something of power (bear, lion, viking, giants, etc), but there is a level of cultural sensitivity that must exist for it to work...something that few teams & fans seem to comprehend.
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