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Old 01-16-2004, 09:41 AM   #1
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Mascots

What are your opinions on Indian mascots?
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Old 01-16-2004, 03:08 PM   #2
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Aw whatdya mean? Don'tcha feel "honored" to have a bunch of scrawny, underbuilt wimpy white kids try to feel athletic and tough by bearing your namesake? :Chatter :Mad
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Old 01-16-2004, 04:07 PM   #3
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I KNOW.....

Let's start a Ball Team and call em the Cleveland Jews?

How about the Atlanta Slaves?

How about the Colorado Christians? Maybe Caucasians?

I can go on, but why be Ignorant.....The very point being there would be an uproar in this country, but it's "Okay" to slander and ridicule us......The names are stupid enough, but the ACTIONS are even worse and misleading and demoralizing! Think about it....
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Old 01-19-2004, 09:33 AM   #4
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Unhappy

I think it is just degrading. How ironic is it that the only mascots I know of are animals, natives, and the Irish. 'Nuff said.
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Old 01-20-2004, 08:22 AM   #5
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I don't like Washington's football team because of this issue. I agree with AJ, it's degrading.
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Old 01-20-2004, 11:24 AM   #6
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Unhappy

Jeez, how about an original topic? This whole debate gets stale and old because few have anything new to add to the debate.
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Old 01-20-2004, 11:17 PM   #7
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sorry , if it's old......the reason i posted is b/c my friends & i were having a debate over this-----------
look at these 2 images/logos? are both offensive to you? why or why not? after some replies are posted....i'll tell you why this was so hotly debated...you might be surprised/you might not


http://stutzfamily.com/mrstutz/preju...webquest1.html

comment on all of them, but i will focus on the 3rd and 5th images (the profiles with the face paint) what do ya'll think of them?
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Old 01-21-2004, 03:03 AM   #8
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Let's make up two cultures.

In Dogmoniker society, it is the highest honor for someone to name their dog after you. Afterall, dog is man's best friend. Dog is loyal, fierce, obedient, yet sensitive and compassionate. Dog is also ordinary, often doing things people just laugh at. But by naming their dog after you, they are expressing the truest form of acceptance as an equal into their society. To ask them not to do this is the worst slap in the face.

In Nondognamo society, it is an insult to name a dog after someone. Even if the dog is honorable and affectionate, even elite in its values as a dog, the fact remains that dogs are of a different ilk. They poop in the yard, pee in public, and know very little of the nuances of human language, even if they can recognize and obey a vocabulary of commands. How dare anyone stoop to the level of naming a dog after a human friend.

So what happens when a Dogmoniker wants to honor his Nondognamo neighbor in the naming of his family dog? Of course the Nondognamite will be offended and the Dogmoniker will never understand why. But of course, the Dogmoniker will also be offended when his neighbor requests that his human name not be used.

OK so the parallel is a stretch. But white people really do think they honor us, and even those that don't just don't care. A name is not sacred to them. It's just a word that you are called. Sharing identity with an icon is a part of their society. Perhaps that is why it they are so shocked when we wish them away from dancing in our powwows. But regardless of any justification they can try, our identity belongs exclusivly to US. We have the moral right to decide who can and cannot use it and how it can and cannot be used.

Perhaps the next person accused of "Identity Theft" should explain to the police that they were just trying to honor the victim?
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Old 01-21-2004, 10:25 AM   #9
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Some of the Teams,believe they had good intentions when they choose the names...like the Cleveland Indians..who had a Native American on their team..back when they were called the Spiders..he was an outstanding ball player and they had alot of respect for him.....they kinda threw it out the door..when they came up with the logo though...the Florida State Seminoles...the Blackhawks...good intentions.....but again...it is a thorn in the side of many..a bone of contention...It would be nice to see the teams named after things that mean something to them....like the Alabama Bible thumbers.. New York Kites(slang for Jews)...hmmm seems the Irish have already been chosen...by the Fighting Irish..and the Celtics...hmmmm how about the Louisianna Drunken Rednecks? Massacusetts Pompus AHoles (the Kennedys should sponser that team)the Washington Barefaced Liars....wait...thats covered..on Capital Hill...hmmmmm....anyways....I am sure we can think of names they would not enjoy...LOL
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Old 01-21-2004, 12:24 PM   #10
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I suspect a hint of the "Squanto Complex"

:Eyebrows
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Old 01-21-2004, 02:32 PM   #11
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It never bugged me until I was a big person ha but now I find it offensive.

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Old 01-21-2004, 03:11 PM   #12
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Do we hear any objections to the TV show "Suvivor?" If anything mocks native culture, that does. In the real world, when tribal councils discuss (vote someone off) kicking someone out, it's because they did something horrible, not because they couldn't carry some bucket of water while balancing on a log.
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Old 01-22-2004, 07:05 PM   #13
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sorry this post is so long:(

i guess i'm wondering where the responsibility/accountability lies--both of those logos depict profiles of indians with long hair, face paint, and feathers in their hair--if you look @ historic photos of the sauc& fox leader blackhawk, and seminole leader osceola (whom these mascots supposedly honor) you realize they're totally inaccurate--so, when the seminoles approve this, does that mean it's okay? even if it's misrepresented? here are some "points to ponder:)" i found on a website


Why is an attractive depiction of an Indian warrior just as offensive as an ugly caricature?" Both depictions present and maintain stereotypes. Both firmly place Indian people in the past, separate from our contemporary cultural experience. It is difficult, at best, to be heard in the present when someone is always suggesting that your real culture only exists in museums. The logos keep us marginalized and are a barrier to our contributing here and now. Depictions of mighty warriors of the past emphasize a tragic part of our history; focusing on wartime survival, they ignore the strength and beauty of our cultures during times of peace. Many Indian cultures view life as a spiritual journey filled with lessons to be learned from every experience and from every living being. Many cultures put high value on peace, right action, and sharing.

Indian men are not limited to the role of warrior; in many of our cultures a good man is learned, gentle, patient, wise and deeply spiritual. In present time as in the past, our men are also sons and brothers, husbands, uncles, fathers and grandfathers. Contemporary Indian men work in a broad spectrum of occupations, wear contemporary clothes, and live and love just as men do from other cultural backgrounds.

The depictions of Indian "braves", "warriors" and "chiefs" also ignore the roles of women and children. Although there are patrilineal Native cultures, many Indian Nations are both matrilineal and child centered. Indian cultures identify women with the Creator because of their ability to bear children, and with the Earth which is Mother to us all. In most Indian cultures the highest value is given to children, they are closest to the Creator and they embody the future. In many Native traditions, each generation is responsible for the children of the seventh generation in the future.

"We never intended the logo to cause harm." That no harm was intended when the logos were adopted, may be true. It is also true that we Indian people are saying that the logos are harmful to our cultures, and especially to our children, in the present. When someone says you are hurting them by your action, if you persist; then the harm becomes intentional.



"Aren't you proud of your warriors?"Yes, we are proud of the warriors who fought to protect our cultures and preserve our lands. We are proud and we don't want them demeaned by being "honored" in a sports activity on a playing field. Our people died tragically in wars motivated by greed for our lands. Our peoples have experienced forced removal and systematic genocide. Our warriors gave their sacred lives in often vain attempts to protect the land and preserve the culture for future generations. Football is a game.

"This is not an important issue."If it is not important, then why are school boards willing to tie up their time and risk potential law suits rather than simply change the logos. I, as an Indian person, have never said it is unimportant. Most Indian adults have lived through the pain of prejudice and harassment in schools when they were growing up, and they don't want their children to experience more of the same. The National Council of American Indians, the Great Lakes InterTribal Council, the Oneida Tribe, and the Wisconsin Indian Education Association have all adopted formal position statements because this is a very important issue to Indian people. This issue speaks to our children being able to form a positive Indian identity and to develop appropriate levels of self-esteem. In addition, it has legal ramifications in regard to pupil harassment and equal access to education. If its not important to people of differing ethnic and racial backgrounds within the community, then change the logos because they are hurting the community's Native American population.

"What if we drop derogatory comments and clip art and adopt pieces of REAL Indian culturally significant ceremony, like Pow-Wows and sacred songs?" Though well-intended, these solutions are culturally naive and would exchange one pseudo-culture for another. Powwows are gatherings of Native people which give us the opportunity to express our various cultures and strengthen our sense of Native American community. Powwows have religious, as well as social, significance. To parodize such ceremonial gatherings for the purpose of cheering on the team at homecoming would multiply exponentially the current pseudo cultural offensiveness. Bringing Native religions onto the playing field through songs of tribute to the "Great Spirit" or Mother Earth would increase the mockery of Native religions even more than the current use of drums and feathers. High School football games are secular; The Creator and Mother Earth are sacred.

"We are helping you preserve your culture."The responsibility for the continuance of our cultures falls to Native people. We accomplish this by surviving, living and thriving; and, in so doing, we pass on to our children our stories, traditions, religions, values, arts, and our languages. We sometimes do this important work with people from other cultural backgrounds, but they do not and cannot continue our cultures for us. Our ancestors did this work for us, and we continue to carry the culture for the generations to come. Our cultures are living cultures - they are passed on, not "preserved".

"This logo issue is just about political correctness."Using the term "political correctness" to describe the attempts of concerned Native American parents, educators and leaders to remove stereotypes from the public schools trivializes a survival issue. A history of systematic genocide has decimated over 95% of the indigenous population of the Americas. Today, the average life expectancy of Native American males is age 45. The teen suicide rate among Native people is several times higher than the national average. Stereotypes, ignorance, silent inaction and even naive innocence damage and destroy individual lives and whole cultures. Racism kills.

"What do you mean, there is hypocrisy involved in retaining an "Indian" logo?" Imagine that you are a child in a society where your people are variously depicted as stoic, brave, honest, a mighty warrior, fierce, savage, stupid, dirty, drunken, and only good when dead. Imagine going to a school where many of your classmates refer to your people as "Dirty Squaws" and "Timber Niggers". Imagine hearing your peers freely, loudly and frequently say such things as "Spear an Indian, Save a Walleye", or more picturesquely proclaim "Spear a Pregnant Squaw, Save a Walleye". Imagine that the teachers and administration do not forbid this kind of behavior. Imagine that this same school holds aloft an attractive depiction of a Plains Indian Chieftain and cheers on its "Indian" team. Imagine that in homecoming displays, cheers, and artwork you see your people depicted inaccurately in ways that demean your cultural and religious practices. Imagine that when you bring your experiences to the attention of your school board and request change, they simply ignore you and decide to continue business as usual. Imagine that the same school board states publicly that it opposes discriminatory practices, provides equal educational opportunity and supports respect for cultural differences.
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Last edited by geronimo; 01-23-2004 at 08:32 AM..
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Old 01-22-2004, 07:06 PM   #14
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many cultures besides natives had tribal councils-(Ex:african societies)-so i guess they're mocking many peoples
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Old 01-22-2004, 07:24 PM   #15
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prairie nigger where i came from


I thought it would be appropriate to honor the major ethnic group of each major city

New York Kites
Boston horse lovers
Phily Wops/Degos/Monkeys
Chicago Polocos
Washington Spooks
Los Angeles Wetbacks
San Antonio Greasers
Seattle Slopeheads/Gooks/Chinks/Nips
Atlanta Niggers
Salt Lake Child Molesters/Polygamists
San Francisco Fudge Packers
Charlotte The Incestials
Detroit Coons
Pittsburgh Neanderthals
Cincinnatti Crouts
Hartford Wenkers/Crackers
Deerborn Sand Niggers/Towel Heads/Camel Humpers
Dallas Cowpounders


Hmm were just honoring them ya know.
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Old 01-22-2004, 09:11 PM   #16
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i appreciate the response...but gache...you didn't answer my question.....please correct me if i'm wrong, but i get the impression that you think i'm accepting of mascots...to the contrary... i'm against mascots...
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Old 01-23-2004, 03:28 PM   #17
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umm i hope your being sarcastic because mine sure was if how I feel about racial stereotyping isnt obvious by the last post Ill spell it out I am against mascots
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Old 01-23-2004, 05:27 PM   #18
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no worries, i got your point---yeah it was blatantly obvious:)
but, does anyone want to comment on my post about the logos of the teams 1blackhawks 2 seminoles? do ya'll think it's okay for them to use them even though they're inaccurate?---does it make it okay if a tribe ok's it even if it's misrepresentation?

do you agree with the author that these logos "keep us marginalized?"
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