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Old 09-14-2007, 09:01 AM   #221
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Are you saying that it depends on your blood quantum whether you are a plum or not?

I am either 12 or 19%, how much plum am I?

Do only plums feel ashamed of something?



My plums are proud to be brown. The "boys" are true Anishinaabe.

Ayyee.
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Old 09-14-2007, 09:12 AM   #222
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by zekes line of "thinking",if someone is interested in a culture,then they can become part of that culture and thats all that matters....not the purity of that culture,not legitamacy of that culture...so,if someone reads about japan,visits japan,eats japanese food,then they become japanese?if a person lives in france for 3 years ,are they then french? i dont think so... why should it be different when it comes to ndn people then? if an all white group proclaimed themselves an "african tribe" and vied for federal monies, would they be taken seriously? no,the NAACP would be all over them in an instant....
zeke likes to label anyone who doesnt support his agenda of a generic pan-indian world,as cultural police,and militant traditionalists...if we dont police our own world,who will? no it isnt ok for anyone who isnt ndn to sell their art as ndn made,the same as if you buy a piece of tiffany silver and find out later its a fake...
we know about cultural preservation zeke,both KK and i are artists and we do alot to maintain OUR culture,in many forms ,in many ways....its alot more than making sure a dance is done properly or a song sung correctly...its ensuring that those who are out there representing any aspect of ndn life are legit..you state that you were a parole officer,then im sure youve had occasion to violate a parolee for lying...so why should exposing a fake or a fraud in ndn world be any different?You ask them for ID to prove who they are before you cuff n stuff them didnt you?im sure as well,you had to produce ID to prove who you were too..so whats the difference asking people who claim to be ndn to do the same????? the difference between what we do and what your agenda is,we dont pander to nor support wannabees and fakes;we dont patronize the people who know they were ndn in a past life or whos great great great grandmother was a cherokee princess...we dont think its ok for a fake to speak to a school or a civic organization and give them mis-information...we think if some one reads a book by an native author,then in fact that author should be what they represent themselves as....the issue of quantum and percentages isnt what we are about,no matter how many times you try to distort what we say...we are all for self determination...you make this into a black and white issue,not us...it is NOT a case of either you are for quantums OR you are for cultural definitons,thats your attempt to sway peoples thinking to YOUR own agendas...and of course,its very clear what your agendas are...you run an ndn center,youre funded based on the number of people you service...so the more"ndns" you sign up,the more money you get...of course you see self determination as a threat,the same way you see traditionalism as a threat...
defining culturally is not the only way to survvie and if thats what your education has shown you,youre due a refund....on the subject of education,your posted comments about Haskell are beyond appaling zeke....it shows true ignorance to slam anyone who, on any level trys to educate themselves...what purpose is there in slandering Haskell and attempting to belittle and degrade those who have attended Haskell?does it make you feel smarter to put Haskell and its graduates down? were you refused admission to Haskell and thats why you belittle it? it would seem you are doing far more damage in ndn world than good,and myself and others feel you need to be held accountable for your words and questionable actions...those of us who have been around see many similarities with your words and those of govt agents whos missions were to divide and split ndn world...
since you feel the need to constantly berate those who actually do something positive in this world to ensure we do survive as a people,i will ask once again...what have you done zeke ???
by the way zeke,im sure Sun Bears "tribe" would welcome you in with open arms,you follow their philosophies and would fit right in with them.....
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Old 09-14-2007, 09:14 AM   #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwehnzii View Post
Are you saying that it depends on your blood quantum whether you are a plum or not?

I am either 12 or 19%, how much plum am I?

Do only plums feel ashamed of something?



My plums are proud to be brown. The "boys" are true Anishinaabe.

Ayyee.
better plums than prunes lol
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Old 09-14-2007, 10:38 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by indian-heart-beat View Post
Hmmm, Othellobloke...

I hope I didn't understand what you are really trying to say here...
I hope that my English is just too bad - that I'm getting it wrong...

Are you saying that it depends on your blood quantum whether you are a plum or not?

I am either 12 or 19%, how much plum am I?

Do only plums feel ashamed of something?

Or did you say this about all non full blood Ndns?

Or are you saying that you are the full blood plum here,
and everybody else needs to be ashamed of his or her opinion?

When I post here, is my opinion only as worthy as my percentage is? Then I better do every post at least 8 times?

Come on!
Tell me that you just picked the wrong words here, because you felt you had to defend yourself.
Or tell me that I'm stupid, I can live with that.

Hey, and in case you don't reply to this post,
I have to think that you ignore opinions of non full bloods.
At least Germans, or women...are you just another racist?
Have you got balls enough to answer?
Or is this a misunderstanding?
Help me here!
Plum is just slang for idiot - it wasn't in reference to blood quantum of any sort hahahahaha.

I don't ignore opinions of full bloods at all. I ignore opinions of those who want to disregard genetics, and concentrate on a bunch of people practising a culture that isn't their own. That's exactly what you'll get if native blood gets diluted away completely - a bunch of white folk running around with chicken feathers in their hair, pretending to 'walk the red road' because of all the fcuked up romanticism.

Going off topic slightly... I'm not racist in the slightest... but admit to being somewhat xenophobic. Being British, I'll never trust a German as long as I live. Germany had two chances, and was TWICE responsible for the worst and bloodiest conflicts on earth. All that crap about it's not like that anymore... I don't see why not.

Hitler's Germany => Their Children => Grandchildren

I don't see a break in the line. People from Hitler's era taught their kids the hatred and racism. Obviously those kids taught their kids what they'd learned from their parents.
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Old 09-14-2007, 10:43 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by othellobloke View Post
Plum is just slang for idiot - it wasn't in reference to blood quantum of any sort hahahahaha.

I don't ignore opinions of full bloods at all. I ignore opinions of those who want to disregard genetics, and concentrate on a bunch of people practising a culture that isn't their own. That's exactly what you'll get if native blood gets diluted away completely - a bunch of white folk running around with chicken feathers in their hair, pretending to 'walk the red road' because of all the fcuked up romanticism.

Going off topic slightly... I'm not racist in the slightest... but admit to being somewhat xenophobic. Being British, I'll never trust a German as long as I live. Germany had two chances, and was TWICE responsible for the worst and bloodiest conflicts on earth. All that crap about it's not like that anymore... I don't see why not.

Hitler's Germany => Their Children => Grandchildren

I don't see a break in the line. People from Hitler's era taught their kids the hatred and racism. Obviously those kids taught their kids what they'd learned from their parents.
Interesting point - so, what did American kids learn from their parents, grandparents, etc., folks who 150 years ago thought that getting rid of the "NDN problem" was a top priority?

It seems to be harsh on Germany for the genocide that took place there merits the same degree of harshness toward America and its genocide of NDN peoples in the name of "Manifest Destiny"...
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Old 09-14-2007, 10:51 AM   #226
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Interesting point - so, what did American kids learn from their parents, grandparents, etc., folks who 150 years ago thought that getting rid of the "NDN problem" was a top priority?

It seems to be harsh on Germany for the genocide that took place there merits the same degree of harshness toward America and its genocide of NDN peoples in the name of "Manifest Destiny"...
I don't think it's harsh. It's being prudent. The Germans had two opportunities to prove themselves as good people. And twice they fcuked it up... look at the cost of trusting them. Look at how rampant the nazi movement is in Germany now.

You are absolutely correct in holding the U.S to blame... which is why myself and about 90% of the world don't trust the Yanks, and think most Americans are a bunch of loud, rude, triggerhappy cowboys eating beans around a camp fire with a banjo on one side and a trusty six-shooter on the other.

It's quite sad that Iran and Cuba had to table a motion at the United Nations to censure Canada for it's genocide of natives here.

I'm sure the main four (America, New Zealand, Australia, Canada) have done many good things in history. I've yet to find out what they've done that makes up for the genocide.
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Old 09-14-2007, 11:38 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by othellobloke View Post
I don't think it's harsh. It's being prudent. The Germans had two opportunities to prove themselves as good people. And twice they fcuked it up... look at the cost of trusting them. Look at how rampant the nazi movement is in Germany now.

You are absolutely correct in holding the U.S to blame... which is why myself and about 90% of the world don't trust the Yanks, and think most Americans are a bunch of loud, rude, triggerhappy cowboys eating beans around a camp fire with a banjo on one side and a trusty six-shooter on the other.

It's quite sad that Iran and Cuba had to table a motion at the United Nations to censure Canada for it's genocide of natives here.

I'm sure the main four (America, New Zealand, Australia, Canada) have done many good things in history. I've yet to find out what they've done that makes up for the genocide.
OB i agree with alot of what you say until you brought up about germany etc...the policies of a governemnt cannot be blamed upon all of the people in a certain country....yes governments have support of a segment of a population but to lay blame on an entire race or nationality isnt fair in the least....the same could easily be said about most govts including the british govt...i dont think theres a govt in history that isnt guilty of some atrocity in one form or another...i certainly dont support the views or policies of the US govt but i live in the US...so does that make me guilty too?
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Old 09-14-2007, 11:44 AM   #228
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Just being a little snarky here but since the early colonization of the US was mostly by folk who were Brits - whatz that say using the aforementioned logic??
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Old 09-14-2007, 12:13 PM   #229
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Just being a little snarky here but since the early colonization of the US was mostly by folk who were Brits - whatz that say using the aforementioned logic??
ireland,scotland,wales,africa,india,australia,nort h america....brits have a very long history of oppression globally...what was the old saying,"the sun never sets on the british empire..."
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Old 09-14-2007, 12:15 PM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwehnzii View Post
Are you saying that it depends on your blood quantum whether you are a plum or not?

I am either 12 or 19%, how much plum am I?

Do only plums feel ashamed of something?



My plums are proud to be brown. The "boys" are true Anishinaabe.

Ayyee.
Beautiful! Who said you shouldn't be proud of who you are?
dict.cc Wörterbuch :: pflaume :: Englisch-Deutsch-Übersetzung
And these are the translations of plum-Pflaume...nice list.
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Old 09-14-2007, 01:05 PM   #231
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Hey Othellobloke.

O.K., the 'fat' is my reply.

QUOTE=othellobloke;966309]Plum is just slang for idiot - it wasn't in reference to blood quantum of any sort hahahahaha.
Good!

I don't ignore opinions of full bloods at all.
I don't do it either. I ignore opinions of those who want to disregard genetics,good, in this case it was no attack against me. and concentrate on a bunch of people practising a culture that isn't their own. I don't do it, I don't take anything away from you, still I am Ndn, German and Swedish...maybe too many cultures I need to follow? That's exactly what you'll get if native blood gets diluted away completely - a bunch of white folk running around with chicken feathers in their hair, pretending to 'walk the red road' because of all the fcuked up romanticism. That's your opinion. What I think is: It is sad that somebody has to pretend something. And it is sad when somebody presumes that others are pretending to do something. Romanticism? Clarify please. Or are you talking about those 'back to nature' people who are so nerved by TV, computer, stress, money,...?

Going off topic slightly... I'm not racist in the slightest...
good!!!! but admit to being somewhat xenophobic. I am not against foreigners as you say you are, how could I? Where should I start? And why? I Being British, I'll never trust a German as long as I live. I am Silvia! I am not Hitler! Lots of my ancestors were killed because they did not want to follow him! And even if they were in the SS, ...I was not there! But believe me, I have to suffer! I had no choice! I wasn't born! My Dad was 14! His father died, his only sister, his closest brother, friends...because of that! When will this be enough!? I am Silvia, not guilty. Germany had two chances, and was TWICE responsible for the worst and bloodiest conflicts on earth. All that crap about it's not like that anymore... I don't see why not. Germany existed before and after, Germany changed...even where it is/was! I haven't been at that place nor I've been there at that time. What I do know is that my Aunt kept our Ndn ancestors secret, because Hitler would have probably killed them all- then I would not have been born ever. Then you wouldn't have to read this. Sad.

Hitler's Germany => Their Children => Grandchildren
No, because I guess there are not many fullblood Germans anymore.

I don't see a break in the line. People from Hitler's era taught their kids the hatred and racism.
No, they were forced. Either adults and kids followed or were killed! Not following meant being enemy. Enemies were killed. Germans were also forced to kill other Germans. Those who were forced to kill others but didn't do it were killed in a heartbeat. Sad. Hitler taught Germans to live in fear and to not show love- and to feel guilty and worthless. I refuse to feel worthless! Don't even try to make me think I am guilty for anything about Hitler! ...Obviously those kids taught their kids what they'd learned from their parents. My parents taught me to not hate foreigners and to not hate Germans either.[/QUOTE

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Old 09-14-2007, 01:10 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by Skillet View Post
OB i agree with alot of what you say until you brought up about germany etc...the policies of a governemnt cannot be blamed upon all of the people in a certain country....yes governments have support of a segment of a population but to lay blame on an entire race or nationality isnt fair in the least....the same could easily be said about most govts including the british govt...i dont think theres a govt in history that isnt guilty of some atrocity in one form or another...i certainly dont support the views or policies of the US govt but i live in the US...so does that make me guilty too?
Living in the U.S doesn't make you guilty. Being proud to be American makes a person untrustworthy. Because that's implicit approval of what America is today, which in turn is implicit approval of how America became.

The policies of a government CAN indeed be blamed on a population. Without popular support, right from the Beer Hall, Hitler would never have been able to amount to what he did. When it comes to Germany... the Teutons have always been a warlike race, have always fought, plundered and ravaged. The two world wars were just another extension of that. I truly believe that if we take our eyes off Germany and relax, another monstrosity will rise out of the ashes again.

Until those pansy ***** whipped bunch of wimps in Germany, Spain, and France start putting their soldiers on the front line in Afghanistan, and prove that they are trustworthy then I'll always treat them with suspicion.

I've met Germans who I liked instensely... but that's because they proved they were trustworthy.

Fool me once... you know how the saying goes.
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Old 09-14-2007, 01:11 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by between2worlds View Post
Just being a little snarky here but since the early colonization of the US was mostly by folk who were Brits - whatz that say using the aforementioned logic??
They were rebellious heathens who weren't content with the way Britain was doing things. They wanted to get away from British rules, and left. The colonisation was committed by a bunch of *******s who should all have been left on their ships whilst being sunk in the middle of the Atlantic. They ceased being British the second they stepped on those ships.

I'm well aware of Britain's colonial past and am not proud of it, but quite proud of the fact that the British forces allowed Sitting Bull to enter what's now Canada when the Yanks were being their usual fcuked up selves.
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Old 09-14-2007, 01:21 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by indian-heart-beat View Post

Going off topic slightly... I'm not racist in the slightest...
good!!!! but admit to being somewhat xenophobic. I am not against foreigners as you say you are, how could I? Where should I start? And why? I Being British, I'll never trust a German as long as I live. I am Silvia! I am not Hitler! Lots of my ancestors were killed because they did not want to follow him! And even if they were in the SS, ...I was not there! But believe me, I have to suffer! I had no choice! I wasn't born! My Dad was 14! His father died, his only sister, his closest brother, friends...because of that! When will this be enough!? I am Silvia, not guilty. Germany had two chances, and was TWICE responsible for the worst and bloodiest conflicts on earth. All that crap about it's not like that anymore... I don't see why not. Germany existed before and after, Germany changed...even where it is/was! I haven't been at that place nor I've been there at that time. What I do know is that my Aunt kept our Ndn ancestors secret, because Hitler would have probably killed them all- then I would not have been born ever. Then you wouldn't have to read this. Sad.
I'm not saying you are Hitler or a supporter of his. I know very well that many in Germany were part of the underground. I'm also well aware that the overwhelming majority supported the Nazi's. Whether it was willing or grudging doesn't matter. Support is support. In wartime, I would rather have had my entire family thrown into an oven alive at Bergen-Belsen rather than support Hitler whether I was being forced or not. The people who supported him even though they were forced were just as bad as his bunch.

Maybe I misunderstood your implication, but are you saying you had family members in the Schutzstaffel? Just curious.
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Old 09-14-2007, 01:33 PM   #235
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Being proud to be American makes a person untrustworthy. Because that's implicit approval of what America is today, which in turn is implicit approval of how America became.
You truly are stunted intellectually, aren't you?

Oh, wait. I asked a question. That's not right...

Let's go with this: You are stunted intellectually.

Much better. Othello's constipated thinking makes me queasy... I sense a non sequitur. A HUGE non sequitur.
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Old 09-14-2007, 01:37 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by othellobloke View Post
Living in the U.S doesn't make you guilty. Being proud to be American makes a person untrustworthy. Because that's implicit approval of what America is today, which in turn is implicit approval of how America became.

The policies of a government CAN indeed be blamed on a population. Without popular support, right from the Beer Hall, Hitler would never have been able to amount to what he did. When it comes to Germany... the Teutons have always been a warlike race, have always fought, plundered and ravaged. The two world wars were just another extension of that. I truly believe that if we take our eyes off Germany and relax, another monstrosity will rise out of the ashes again.

Until those pansy ***** whipped bunch of wimps in Germany, Spain, and France start putting their soldiers on the front line in Afghanistan, and prove that they are trustworthy then I'll always treat them with suspicion.

I've met Germans who I liked instensely... but that's because they proved they were trustworthy.

Fool me once... you know how the saying goes.
Those Neo Nazis are the very exception- and they are allover the world. And they are not Germany. Like Italian Mafia is not Italy and Russian Mafia is not Russia, ...Definitely I know from those who already lived 'under Hitler' (Unter Hitler)- not for or with him...they would agree with you in one point: They followed him. They thought he would do what he promised. They did not want what happened later on. He promised them food, homes, jobs, a living... Anyway.
Other than this I am not trying to convince you anymore.
I am in defense, I made my statement about this thread's subject also. I will not attack you for anything that other people did while you weren't planned yet. I think it is just not fair.
Let's just go on with the topic.
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Old 09-14-2007, 01:52 PM   #237
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I'm not saying you are Hitler or a supporter of his. I know very well that many in Germany were part of the underground. I'm also well aware that the overwhelming majority supported the Nazi's. Whether it was willing or grudging doesn't matter. Support is support. In wartime, I would rather have had my entire family thrown into an oven alive at Bergen-Belsen rather than support Hitler whether I was being forced or not. The people who supported him even though they were forced were just as bad as his bunch.

Maybe I misunderstood your implication, but are you saying you had family members in the Schutzstaffel? Just curious.
Read it again: They were killed by those people.
Now:
What's the problem here? You will never get me to a point, where I attack you in an unfair way. I will never say such things to you. I respect you as a human being with his own opinion and thoughts. I do not share your opinion. And believe me...I do know people who were already alive while Hitler did what he did.
How many German people do you know who accidentally lived in that area at accidentally that time?
I know you don't know better...and I can still smile.
Now:

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Old 09-15-2007, 09:11 PM   #238
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even quicker if you dilute ndn world with the fakes and frauds that you advocate letting "be" indian...
I agree wit this one. I agree with a lot on both sides of the argument, but it is getting a lil ridiculous how we are beggining to speak of our children and such as if they are dogs we are going to decide who they will "breed" with. I think to a certain point some of us are getting carried away.
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Old 09-15-2007, 09:25 PM   #239
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Read it again: They were killed by those people.
Now:
What's the problem here? You will never get me to a point, where I attack you in an unfair way. I will never say such things to you.
Of course you won't... my people weren't responsible for the two world wars.

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I respect you as a human being with his own opinion and thoughts. I do not share your opinion. And believe me...I do know people who were already alive while Hitler did what he did.
How many German people do you know who accidentally lived in that area at accidentally that time?
I know you don't know better...and I can still smile.
I've got friends who are from Bonn, Rinteln, and Berlin who moved to England. They would have been slaughtered like pigs if they hadn't - they're Jews.

Why get indignant? It's a fact that Germany was responsible for the two world wars, and the loss of millions and millions of lives.

Anti-semitism was rampant in Germany BEFORE Hitler's first beer hall ramblings.

There are still hundreds of Schutzstaffel members walking around Germany free, instead of lying in a gutter with bullets in their head. A buddy of mine knows a couple of SS officers who spent only 20 years in jail. Does that seem fair to you?

Germany is just like Canada is now. A facade of greatness and racial acceptance, but underneath completely the opposite.

Germany shouldn't be allowed a military. 1. Because they used it to kill millions TWICE in history. 2. Nobody wants to invade Germany anyway.

You know that saying 'once bitten, twice shy'? Well in Germany's case it should be 'millions murdered on two seperate occasions, don't trust them'.

Don't take it personally... I lump both Americans, Austrians and Germans in the same category of untrustworthyness - not just you :).

Aside from that, why aren't your psusy whipped wimpy soldiers fighting on the front line in Afghanistan?

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Old 09-15-2007, 10:04 PM   #240
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Of course you won't... my people weren't responsible for the two world wars.



I've got friends who are from Bonn, Rinteln, and Berlin who moved to England. They would have been slaughtered like pigs if they hadn't - they're Jews.

Why get indignant? It's a fact that Germany was responsible for the two world wars, and the loss of millions and millions of lives.

Anti-semitism was rampant in Germany BEFORE Hitler's first beer hall ramblings.

There are still hundreds of Schutzstaffel members walking around Germany free, instead of lying in a gutter with bullets in their head. A buddy of mine knows a couple of SS officers who spent only 20 years in jail. Does that seem fair to you?

Germany is just like Canada is now. A facade of greatness and racial acceptance, but underneath completely the opposite.

Germany shouldn't be allowed a military. 1. Because they used it to kill millions TWICE in history. 2. Nobody wants to invade Germany anyway.

You know that saying 'once bitten, twice shy'? Well in Germany's case it should be 'millions murdered on two seperate occasions, don't trust them'.

Don't take it personally... I lump both Americans, Austrians and Germans in the same category of untrustworthyness - not just you :).

Aside from that, why aren't your psusy whipped wimpy soldiers fighting on the front line in Afghanistan?
You know,

I have heard all these things a million times.
Why do you ask me whether I think it is fair?
Do you really think that I think it is fair?
Shall I try to find out who he is, then find him and kill him for you?
In this case I wouldn't be better- self justice.
I am a fair person.
You address this to me.
I take it as a personal attack, of course I do.
But I am used to it.
Me- not guilty- am used to being attacked because of that and have been attacked not only verbally, physically also!!!!
And just because my skin is yellow and my hair is dark brown, I was attacked by Germans also.
I don't know how their % was.
How do you think should I feel?
I am used to it, I go to my self defense and my children also.
We are not allowed to have any weapons.
I was stabbed twice in my tummy, do you thin that's fun?
So just do not address it to me anymore.
I am not guilty, and I have heard this too often.
I am born in Germany,
but this doesn't mean that I am not fair.
O.K.?

How many inhabitants does Germanyhave in relation to America?
How many soldiers does Germany have? What else are their duties?
(I don't need an answer, ask yourself.)
A 'Bundeswehr'-Soldier -after his learning time- starts with 1100,-€ a month,
at an age of 23 to 25 he gets about 1350,-€ to 1450,-€,
from 25 to 27 about 1450,-€ to almost 1600,-€ depending on his graduation.
From that he 'just' has to pay his taxes/fees of about 40%.
Multiplicate € x 1.4 and you have roundabout what he earns a month in $.
Here's an automatically translated link
Translated version of http://www.bundeswehr.de/portal/a/bwde/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKLd443cTYFSYGYxgEh-pEwsaCUVH1fj_zcVH1v_QD9gtyIckdHRUUAk8MRmQ!!/delta/base64xml/L2dJQSEvUUt3QS80SVVFLzZfQ180RU8!?yw_contentURL=%2F C1256EF4002AED30%2FW26VQ

Last edited by indian-heart-beat; 09-16-2007 at 11:13 AM.. Reason: added link
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