[NorthofAda]

Originally Posted by timmy tiger

And what about all the treaties that the gov. made with the tribes so many years ago. Shouldn't they be held accountable to the people that they made all these promises too, not ones trying to come in a claim something for nothing. But the actual people.

Good luck with that! I think that when a lot of those treaties were signed there was never any intention on the part of the US Gov't of keeping them. Or even in cases where there was good intent, the terms changed - why? - because of money, of course. Just look at the treaties surrounding the Black Hills as 1 example.

But this brings up an interesting point back to our original topic here...

In the midst of all this treaty signing in the 1800s there was a great deal of intermarrying of NDNs and whites, and some of that was governed by other motivations, rather than love. The white trappers and traders married NDN women to get in good with the tribes for financial gain. Some NDNs married white folk so that they could gain more acceptance with the white man and, hopefully, a greater financial standing with regards to land ownership.

When the Dawes Rolls were made, for example, the more NDN you were, the less "competent" you were judged to be by the US Gov't and hence the need for the "Great White Father" to manage your lands for you.

So today, maybe, there are just as many reasons for choosing who you marry...just now maybe folks are seeing it the other way - marry more NDN, rather than less...

[othellobloke]

Originally Posted by NorthofAda

I admit I cringed a bit when I read that part about money for Othellobloke's kids.

I would hope that one's aspirations for one's children, in regards to their Indian lineage, would be more than just how much money they'll get out of the gov't, but how those children will grow and succeed in a modern world. To simultaneously do so and yet maintain a connection to the past, an appreciation of one's heritage and culture, is truly a fine line to walk. For those who are native with native partners, this may be easier, but for those who are native with non-native partners it is no less important.

You're misinterpreting what I said. I was saying it is important because MANY MANY MANY indians CARE about how much funding they get from the government. One of the things this thread centres around is money. It's not been mentioned, but I know damn well that people care how much money the feds are giving. It's ALWAYS about money (amongst other things).

My children would be fine if they got nothing from the government as we take care of them perfectly. I just used them as an example.

[othellobloke]

Originally Posted by Zeke

You know, I put this fool on my IGNORE LIST to cease waisting bandwidth but, after seeing this quote in another post, I had to go look.

Finally! It comes out. One Merry Captain (there are others) of the Incessantly Loser Indian Police Warship admits the agenda for his entire crew: It's about $$$.

Did you get the crap beaten out of you in school by a bunch of indian kids?

Your constant hostility towards people with higher native blood than you is almost comical.

I was a little amazed to find out you said something so nasty about Haskell students. You need a slap in the chops.

Dude... just come up to a rez in Ontario called Couchiching. It's not far from the Minneapolis border - about twenty minutes drive. They're nearly all white folk.. they'll accept you into their throng.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by NorthofAda

When the Dawes Rolls were made, for example, the more NDN you were, the less "competent" you were judged to be by the US Gov't and hence the need for the "Great White Father" to manage your lands for you.

So, were I that Native person, do you know what I would do? I'd lie.

The Dawes Rolls were inaccurate from inception.

Quantum is bunk, wed whom you love.

[weshomenom]

Zeke said: "Quantum is designed to maintain a system of dependence: you know, the one we have now."

Where do you get this information from?

What was termination about? Terminated services-terminating the government's treaty relationships, allowing valuable lands and resources to be sold at cheaper prices while relocating indians to larger cities who were trying to feed their families.

The whole thing was a disaster. indians who relacated to big cities still found a way to be connected to eachother, that is how Indian Centers came about.

Blood quantum has to do with who the feds decide are still party to the contracts made years ago. Since termination was a disaster, causing MORE families to be dependent upon the state system than it did before they were terminated, what you have to say is false.

Many people through out the country depend on the government for help everyday, it's not a matter of what race they are. For that matter, "states" depend on the feds to help alleviate their deficient budgets, should they too be cut off ?

No one answered my question about wannabes, they have their own version of language and ceremonies without blood quantum, does this mean they are indian?

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by weshomenom

Zeke said: "Quantum is designed to maintain a system of dependence: you know, the one we have now."

Where do you get this information from?

From right here:

Originally Posted by weshomenom

Blood quantum has to do with who the feds decide are still party to the contracts made years ago.

It's about $$$.

Originally Posted by weshomenom

Many people through out the country depend on the government for help everyday, it's not a matter of what race they are.

1. You think that's a good thing?
2. Precisely: it's not a matter of what race they are.

Originally Posted by Timmy Tiger

Who could ever possibly think that services would only be temporary?

Um, perhaps humans who have not become dependent upon such as a way of life?

[Kiwehnzii]

It is certain that the argument that blood doesn't matter is very worrisome to those who have fallen in love with a non-indian.
They will or will have children who are 1/2 blood or less and.......... probably will marry a non-Indian. This, in most probability, will carry on to the next generation. This is why they argue most strenuously that blood doesn't matter.

Zeke... what do you think of this statement? Am I wrong? Do you have children? Do you have children that you will teach to be proud to be two races? Or....... will you teach them to be.... just American?

If you have mixed blood children, be proud of them. Not ashamed to let us all know. Our Creator has granted those children the privelege of having you as their father and are counting on you to be proud of their heritage whatever it may be.

Everyone... have a nice day.

[yellowthunders mama]

Originally Posted by indian-heart-beat

Seems you are really happy with your choice! Congrats!

Thanks IHB. I am happy with my choice but I did not set out to find an NDN man to marry. We were introduced at a powwow and were friends for a year before dating. Then we lived together for a year before getting married. For both of us, our first marriages failed but taught us valuable lessons for the success we now enjoy. After 5 years of marriage, we were blessed with a son who we are raising around the drum. Taking it slow has worked for us and in this day and age that is a good way to go about things. My grandparents, on the other hand, married after a week of knowing each other and were married for 67 years until my grandmother passed away at 90 years of age. Love will always find a way. I will say it again: marry who you love

[timmy tiger]

wesh: there's a difference here between: Wannabe's, hobbyists, Indians not enrolled and Indians who are enrolled. There is so much diversity that it takes so long. I, personally, believe that a Wannabe isn't Indian and should just shut up. I know alot of these and they make trouble everywhere they go saying that they are "this" or they are "that" and almost killing people in their fake ceramonies. But they can't tell you who their ancestors are because they don't know themselves. So then how do they know where to go and how to live? That's what makes things hard and causes all kinds of trouble. Many of these try to discredit the true Indian people and become better then anyone else and make money by claiming to be something that they are not and that's not right.
A Hobbyist is totally different, they tell you that they are not Indian at all, but that they like the lifestyle and try to honor it the best way that they can and that's a really good thing. They try to learn the right way from the People who live it daily.
Then you have the Indians who are not tribal members because their blood quantium is not enough (or other reasons), but they can prove with documentation where and who they come from. In my opinion--they are still Indian just not enrolled. Again these people live who they are and honor that and many of them are not interested in the per caps or the gov. handouts, just in being who they are. Not that blows holes in a lot of peoples theories about Indian's wanting gov. cheese and money all the time.
Then there are those who are tribally enrolled members some still live on the res' and other's don't. Those who live on the res have done so for generations and if that's the way that they wish to live and they are happy (many are--I visit them all the time) then they should live the way that they were raised and where they are comfortable. Many of the ones who leave the res, come back---I have known many of these as well. The ones who don't go back find people in their area to connect with. It's all about connections (not money) and that is something the the Wannabe's will never be able to understand. They can't feel it the way that others can. Not to put them down, but they need to find their own connections to people from their own background who they can connect with and be happy with who they are.

Just my opinion--not worth all that much.

[NorthofAda]

Originally Posted by Kiwehnzii

It is certain that the argument that blood doesn't matter is very worrisome to those who have fallen in love with a non-indian.
They will or will have children who are 1/2 blood or less and.......... probably will marry a non-Indian. This, in most probability, will carry on to the next generation. This is why they argue most strenuously that blood doesn't matter.

Zeke... what do you think of this statement? Am I wrong? Do you have children? Do you have children that you will teach to be proud to be two races? Or....... will you teach them to be.... just American?

If you have mixed blood children, be proud of them. Not ashamed to let us all know. Our Creator has granted those children the privelege of having you as their father and are counting on you to be proud of their heritage whatever it may be.

Everyone... have a nice day.

Great post!

[yellowthunders mama]

Originally Posted by weshomenom

No one answered my question about wannabes, they have their own version of language and ceremonies without blood quantum, does this mean they are indian?

I hate it when no one responds to my questions too....
I do not believe that just making it up as you go as many wannabes do makes them NDN. A person needs to have native blood and be taught their language and ceremonies etc... On the flip side there are many relocated NDNs and mixed bloods who were not taught their languages or ceremonies. Does that make them not NDN? No it just makes the government temporarily successful in their endevors because one can always come back to their culture which centers around language.
I agree with what you said earlier about their being nothing wrong with NDNs that want to preserve both blood and culture. Both are very important to our survival. I also think that our survival depends on us accepting and teaching members of our families and clans who have lesser blood quantum. Family is everything.

[weshomenom]

Yes, one can have blood without culture but you can't have culture without blood.

If we take a look at African Americans, they lost their culture a long time ago, does this make them not african american?

Do they still have a culture? Yes but not their traditional culture-

If they were to continue to marry outside of their own race they would cease to exist as african americans. Hello, not a tough decision to make.

We as Indian people should not have to defend our belief system against another indian. Those who are not indian have no say in this issue. It is up to us to preserve who we are while those who believe different need to just move on instead of trying to indoctrine their beliefs.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by Kiwehnzii

Zeke... what do you think of this statement? Am I wrong? Do you have children?

I will not discuss children in public, but I was happy to respond via PM.

For the record, your argument applies to everyone and is the very crux of the reason why quantum is crap: ~75% of folks polled have no negative response to the dating and marrying of non-Natives.

This means the scenario you describe has happened, is happening, and will happen in the future.

It is imperative that Indian people not align themselves with a qualifying agent that has diminishing returns.

[timmy tiger]

Northofada: I agree with you on the Dawes and getting the gov. to honor their commitments. They never seem to want to. They make so many promises and then they find a loophole out of it. Gee, you think that it might be set up that way?LOL I really do think so. And the Dawes Rolls, I have several relatives on those rolls and have searched them fairly well and again, I know that what you are saying is accurate. Now, I'm seeing more non-native's wanting to marry native's not so much about money but more about "status" and "look at me", this is just what I'm seeing. It makes them all self important many times and that's just as sad. But if someone falls in love (truely in love) their background shouldn't matter, but the kids should, always.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy Tiger
Who could ever possibly think that services would only be temporary?

Um, perhaps humans who have not become dependent upon such as a way of life?

Or maybe someone who thinks so much of themselves that they would never try to work in the outside world. So they really don't know how truely hard it really is to be in the work forces these days.

[yellowthunders mama]

[QUOTE=weshomenom;967868]Yes, one can have blood without culture but you can't have culture without blood.
[QUOTE]

There is a lot of wisdom and passion in your words. Your comment about African Americans got me to thinking about how white people in America lost their cultures a long time ago too. Maybe that is why African Americans and whites are so attracted to NDN cultures because many of us still know who we are and teach our children who they are. Many of us still speak our languages and practice our religions and no government out to exterminate us will ever change that. You are right that NDNs shouldn't have to defend themselves against other NDNs. It is up to us to decide how best to preserve our blood, language, culture and sanity. Since I am mixed, I naturally believe that a person who is mixed is still NDN and I am also proud that my son is more NDN than me.

[Zeke]

Originally Posted by timmy tiger

Or maybe someone who thinks so much of themselves that they would never try to work in the outside world.

Are you indicating that Natives are insular? That they place the preservation of "self" over adaptation and survival?

Perhaps you should specify.

[weshomenom]

At my old job we had a guy who worked with us not long but he was originally from South Africa who came here on a school visa. He was working on his masters degree so he go back home to support his people after he finished school. He was so interesting to speak with and at times he would sing in his language.

One day when he was singing, another african american got mouthy and told him to speak english. I didn't say anything but thought to myself, how sad for an african american to say such a thing.

As I do, I thought about what took place for a couple of days trying to figure out in my head why this took place. At first it seemed kind of racist but then I came to conclusion that this man who was of african decent was embassed that he didn't know the language of where his people could have come from and this was his only way to deal with his lack of knowledge, lack of connection to his original people.

[Blackbear]

You'll be interested to know that Winston Churchill was something like 1/16th Iroquios or Cherokee.

I heard it was actually Mohawk.

zeke says:
Finally! It comes out. One Merry Captain (there are others) of the Incessantly Loser Indian Police Warship admits the agenda for his entire crew: It's about $$$.

I'm surprised... that's too easy a pick off for you, and besides I think you know what he meant by that. It's a simple truth. With one exception.. people's taxes don't really go to pay for the services that natives get because the US taxes barely pay for the interest on what the US owes. But yes, indian services and money for them are based on how many are enrolled (not quantum), and you just took a cheap shot.

weshomenom says:
Talking about culture, how about all those wannabes who buy cherokee language books, tapes and speak it through their version of the english language. Or the ones who conduct hodge-podge ceremonies they claim are "ancient" ceremonies. This is culture for them, does it make them indian?

Is it culture? Is'nt your culture what you are raised with? If I went around in khakis talking like Steve Irwin, would that make me australian or would it make it my culture? Both occults and club organizations have oaths, secret languages (some), rituals and customs, often borrowed from other cultures (case in point, redman's lodge).... but it's not culture. That's my answer anyhow.

zeke says; Quantum is designed to maintain a system of dependence: you know, the one we have now.

Quantum was designed by those that believed in racial purity and wanted to keep it that way. And more than likely it was agreed on by both sides and still is by many.

wshomenom says: As I do, I thought about what took place for a couple of days trying to figure out in my head why this took place. At first it seemed kind of racist but then I came to conclusion that this man who was of african decent was embassed that he didn't know the language of where his people could have come from and this was his only way to deal with his lack of knowledge, lack of connection to his original people.

That's very insightful! I bet that guy did'nt even realize it himself.... but if he thought about it he would. Unless he was just one of those typical ignorant types who feels threatened because he can't understand another person's language... I meet alot of those types.

[timmy tiger]

Webster's---Insular: Having the form of, an island; living or situated on an island; 3. Like an island, detached, isolated.

I can look words up too.

Gee how did you get from "Someone" to all Indian people? Adaption is one thing, annihilation is something totally different. Indian people have always been very good at adaption of their areas and how to live with the elements. You were talking about services not being needed by people. Well, that's not going to happen with the way that things are going right now for ALL people. And you went from "A Human Being" to "Natives".

The only ones here who are Insular are the ones who act like they believe themselves to be so much better then where they themselves come from. They are the ones who put themselves on an island to being better then all others and the old saying "Misery loves company"---my answer has always been "I'm not company".

[Skillet]

Originally Posted by Zeke

For the record, your argument applies to everyone and is the very crux of the reason why quantum is crap: ~75% of folks polled have no negative response to the dating and marrying of non-Natives.

are you seriously that illiterate or do you purposely misquote figures to suit your agenda????
its 58% and 77 PEOPLE
where do you get 75% from??? the ones UNDECIDED or have NO COMMENT mean just that...
shoulda gone to Haskell zeke,at least the graduates there can READ