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View Poll Results: Natives dating/marrying non-natives
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Old 07-30-2007, 02:25 PM   #101
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Thumbs up All right!!

I say we shouldn't be so concerned about who we marry, but more concerned about what we do after marriage. If your going to live with your people, bring that person in and have them contribute and be part of your community. You would strengthen your ways by doing so.

Plus, it sounds like many have bought into the governments blood quantum brainwashing. (Just to me), what makes you Native is your language, belief system/values, how you treat people and how you think. Historically, what did Native people do when they brought someone into their tribe, regardless of what background or ancestry they came from? They acculturated them....right?

If we don't quit fixating on this whole blood quantum mess, then one day the gov. is going to come at us with the argument that we arent' racially the same people any longer (because of the end result of the blood quantum 'system'. ~The example of this being, here in Oklahoma where you come across folks with ancestry who received allotments from many diff. tribes, because of the intermarrying making their descendants ineligible to registery with any of of their tribes because of the blood quantum requirements.) To prevent such an occurence, we should stay focused on keeping our ways (language, etc.) and we can make a case that we are still the same people regardless of their blood quantum system.

So, in the end, I say marry who you want...just do your darndest to bring them into the fold....aye...[/QUOTE]



I am in total agreement! I see someone else has the same mind frame I have. It warms my heart to know you are out there.
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Old 07-30-2007, 02:47 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Traditonal Lady View Post
I say we shouldn't be so concerned about who we marry, but more concerned about what we do after marriage. If your going to live with your people, bring that person in and have them contribute and be part of your community. You would strengthen your ways by doing so.

Plus, it sounds like many have bought into the governments blood quantum brainwashing. (Just to me), what makes you Native is your language, belief system/values, how you treat people and how you think. Historically, what did Native people do when they brought someone into their tribe, regardless of what background or ancestry they came from? They acculturated them....right?

If we don't quit fixating on this whole blood quantum mess, then one day the gov. is going to come at us with the argument that we arent' racially the same people any longer (because of the end result of the blood quantum 'system'. ~The example of this being, here in Oklahoma where you come across folks with ancestry who received allotments from many diff. tribes, because of the intermarrying making their descendants ineligible to registery with any of of their tribes because of the blood quantum requirements.) To prevent such an occurence, we should stay focused on keeping our ways (language, etc.) and we can make a case that we are still the same people regardless of their blood quantum system.

So, in the end, I say marry who you want...just do your darndest to bring them into the fold....aye...


I am in total agreement! I see someone else has the same mind frame I have. It warms my heart to know you are out there.[/QUOTE]


Couldn't have said it better!
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Old 08-08-2007, 11:49 AM   #103
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Generally you should pick based upon the content of someone's character and not so much their creed and colour. But you do have all the cultural considerations to take into account.

My two children wouldn't be here if my woman had not got wild with me (she's Ojibway).

With natives it's a bit different... native blood quantum is getting more and more diluted with each generation. There's less and less fullblood's which is a bad thing because it's just showing that both Federal governments policies in Canada and America of eradicating the indian problem is working.

I'm aware I'm perpetuating the very thing I'm not enthused about, but I'll make up for it - my kids won't get a choice - they can shag or marry anyone they want, but their children WILL be with fullbloods whether they like it or not. :P
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Old 08-08-2007, 11:57 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by othellobloke View Post
With natives it's a bit different... native blood quantum is getting more and more diluted with each generation. There's less and less fullblood's which is a bad thing because it's just showing that both Federal governments policies in Canada and America of eradicating the indian problem is working.
Well sure, if we continue to define ourselves by blood quantum. (Which is why, of course, we cannot continue to do so.)

I recommend a cultural definition, which is not a non-renewable resource.
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Old 08-08-2007, 12:08 PM   #105
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Well sure, if we continue to define ourselves by blood quantum. (Which is why, of course, we cannot continue to do so.)

I recommend a cultural definition, which is not a non-renewable resource.
You can't do that... because once the blood and dna is out of the way, there's no difference between people.

If it was done via cultural definition... you'd have a whole huge bunch of white people trying to do their thing with long black dyed hair, silver bearclaw rings, and wearing chokers to the office.

It HAS to be by blood.
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Old 08-08-2007, 12:19 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by othellobloke View Post
You can't do that... because once the blood and dna is out of the way, there's no difference between people.
Except the culture, which is the POINT.

Blood/DNA is already going the way of the dodo, because fractions never increase. Dividing by two offers a number smaller, or equal to, the largest one that you had: as a BEST case.

So here's the deal: if you hold on to blood, you're DONE. It's the only logical conclusion, unless your plan is to exist in forlorn pockets of isolationist existence with inter-bred families and kids featuring three heads. Even that, at best, gets you 100 years.

Or, you can accept that -- as a species -- humans are generally the same and it is what you act/perceive/do (culture!) that defines us. With that, you empower us to live, evolve, grow and continue as what we are.

Blood quantum is a bad, bad deal, man. Don't fall for it. Don't "take the cheese" and get caught in the trap.
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Old 08-08-2007, 12:39 PM   #107
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Except the culture, which is the POINT.

Blood/DNA is already going the way of the dodo, because fractions never increase. Dividing by two offers a number smaller, or equal to, the largest one that you had: as a BEST case.

So here's the deal: if you hold on to blood, you're DONE. It's the only logical conclusion, unless your plan is to exist in forlorn pockets of isolationist existence with inter-bred families and kids featuring three heads. Even that, at best, gets you 100 years.

Or, you can accept that -- as a species -- humans are generally the same and it is what you act/perceive/do (culture!) that defines us. With that, you empower us to live, evolve, grow and continue as what we are.

Blood quantum is a bad, bad deal, man. Don't fall for it. Don't "take the cheese" and get caught in the trap.
Oh gawd here we go wit the dodo again....and the "cheese". I actually do agree with this part: "humans are generally the same and it is what you act/perceive/do (culture!) that defines us. With that, you empower us to live, evolve, grow and [i]continue as what we are"

But at the same time I'm kinda torn on the issue.....cause native people are so damn beautiful (male and female).....even though i'm an addition to the "problem" as well with my blue eyes and pale skin, I don't want everyone to end up looking the same. I like diversity.

Also, I think part of the issue with intermarrying IS culture though: if you marry someone with a completely different culture than your own, with different beliefs, it can make it difficult to understand each other and to agree on child raising. All this for the sake of argument I guess cause since I'm already of mixed decent its different, I can't really choose what I am. Although I have dated many races and love based on love, I will admit that I would prefer a native man....mostly culturally.....but can I help that I just happen to like darker skin and brown eyes? Just a preference.
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Old 08-08-2007, 12:49 PM   #108
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Except the culture, which is the POINT.

Blood/DNA is already going the way of the dodo, because fractions never increase. Dividing by two offers a number smaller, or equal to, the largest one that you had: as a BEST case.

So here's the deal: if you hold on to blood, you're DONE. It's the only logical conclusion, unless your plan is to exist in forlorn pockets of isolationist existence with inter-bred families and kids featuring three heads. Even that, at best, gets you 100 years.

Or, you can accept that -- as a species -- humans are generally the same and it is what you act/perceive/do (culture!) that defines us. With that, you empower us to live, evolve, grow and continue as what we are.

Blood quantum is a bad, bad deal, man. Don't fall for it. Don't "take the cheese" and get caught in the trap.
That's too naive saying that only culture defines us. Genetics, DNA and history define us too.

Would you be content in 300 years to have every single "native" person in North America to have 1/300,000th quantum of native blood, pasty faced, blonde haired with no cute rezzed out accents?

As wave said... I like diversity. Having it your way in 300 years there'll be only white folk in North America with one half living in condominium housing, and the other half living in rez housing. There'll be no difference between people except an 'adopted culture'.
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Old 08-08-2007, 01:44 PM   #109
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That's too naive saying that only culture defines us. Genetics, DNA and history define us too.
Wait. You are seriously advocating that DNA and genetics define us as humans? (Sig Heil?)

Beyond such idiocy, to claim that history is a defining moniker is to be ruled by it. "No thanks."

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Would you be content in 300 years to have every single "native" person in North America to have 1/300,000th quantum of native blood, pasty faced, blonde haired with no cute rezzed out accents?
Your very argument makes my case, related to what actually matters. Bloodlines will EASILY be so thin in 300 years. If that is your determinative factor, you got bumpkis! You are asking us to care what somebody looks like, which is the antithesis of rational thought. I am asking you to care what somebody acts like, which is MUCH more important.

As for a rez'd out accent, it's not cute. It's as shameful as jive. If that's who you want to be...

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Having it your way in 300 years there'll be only white folk in North America with one half living in condominium housing, and the other half living in rez housing.
No, that's your foolish and isolationist way, where we do things like measure drops of blood, judge based upon colour. and think being "rez'd out" is cute. (Do you expect we'll have reservations in 300 hundred years? There won't be if we follow your half-assed quantum plan, because there won't be enough blood/numbers left to justify their existence! )

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There'll be no difference between people except an 'adopted culture'.
Which makes you fundamentally different, is a renewable resource, protects mores and values, could be expressed through families, mandates self-analysis, promotes growth... Oh, nevermind.

We grow or we die.

It's not complicated.

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Old 08-08-2007, 02:46 PM   #110
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Wait. You are seriously advocating that DNA and genetics define us as humans? (Sig Heil?)

Beyond such idiocy, to claim that history is a defining moniker is to be ruled by it. "No thanks."
That's just stupid. It's an unrefutable physical fact - dna groups are different to others. It's what makes us different. I did NOT say 'better' or 'worthy of being sent to the gas chamber' so you can shove your sieg heil comment.

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I am asking you to care what somebody acts like, which is MUCH more important.
In this particular issue I'm not talking about the way people act. I'm talking about the differences and diversity that we NEED to keep before we all become one single race through blood dilution (which was the goal of Hitler anyway).

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As for a rez'd out accent, it's not cute. It's as shameful as jive. If that's who you want to be...
It's the natural way SOME people talk - they can't help it. I happen to like it. Who's the goosestepping sieg heil'er now?

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(Do you expect we'll have reservations in 300 hundred years? There won't be if we follow your half-assed quantum plan, because there won't be enough blood/numbers left to justify their existence! )
How in the blazes did you read that from what I said?

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We grow or we die.

It's not complicated.
We dilute too much and culture will die. It's not just natives. In Mauritius where one half of my family are from... the overwhelming majority are Indo-Mauritians and the old mauritian culture and bloodlines are slowly fading because of the Indian contribution.

You need to stop trying to read between my lines because there's no space or hidden message. It's as simple as...

'diversity is a beautiful thing. diversity will die if bloodlines die'.
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Old 08-08-2007, 02:52 PM   #111
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Duplicate post.
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Old 08-08-2007, 03:47 PM   #112
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wocus, what do you think can/should be done about it? should there just be a generic "native" designation sted money going to each different tribe? and all people with say 1/4 or 1/8 native blood just split the govt money equally?

seems the govt can make anything complicated, even lurve. :p
Blood quantum should be kept at more than 1/4 or even 1/2. When you go less than that, you have people that can pass for white or other race. This is my opinion only, and not meant to offend anyone by any means. I'm half breed who married darker, so my kids are 3/4 native. That was my preference and choice. I followed the teachings of my grandmother when choosing the father of my children, a native man who works hard to provide, the fact that he has never touched drugs or alcohol in his life was and is a big time bonus. Maybe the bigger message still is to teach your children to choose wisely, because they should value themselves first!
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Old 08-08-2007, 04:06 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by othellobloke View Post
That's just stupid. It's an unrefutable physical fact - dna groups are different to others. It's what makes us different. I did NOT say 'better' or 'worthy of being sent to the gas chamber' so you can shove your sieg heil comment.



In this particular issue I'm not talking about the way people act. I'm talking about the differences and diversity that we NEED to keep before we all become one single race through blood dilution (which was the goal of Hitler anyway).



It's the natural way SOME people talk - they can't help it. I happen to like it. Who's the goosestepping sieg heil'er now?



How in the blazes did you read that from what I said?



We dilute too much and culture will die. It's not just natives. In Mauritius where one half of my family are from... the overwhelming majority are Indo-Mauritians and the old mauritian culture and bloodlines are slowly fading because of the Indian contribution.

You need to stop trying to read between my lines because there's no space or hidden message. It's as simple as...

'diversity is a beautiful thing. diversity will die if bloodlines die'.
THANK YOU!!!!!! and very very true about hitler trying to accomplish the same things as zeke proposes...much of zekes rhetoric has smatterings of pre-war germany

zeke seems to be the only one who doesnt see these points...but then he also has a personal agenda revolving around making us all pan-indian.and yes self righteous definer of what is and isnt indian,you CAN in fact increase a fraction,that was pointed out several threads ago but you would have to be able to read and comprehend beyond your government approved thinking.
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Old 08-08-2007, 08:57 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by othellobloke View Post
You can't do that... because once the blood and dna is out of the way, there's no difference between people.

If it was done via cultural definition... you'd have a whole huge bunch of white people trying to do their thing with long black dyed hair, silver bearclaw rings, and wearing chokers to the office.

It HAS to be by blood.
Exactly

Suzze

got to the rest of your post later & still agreeing.

I also of course agree with Skillet & Wocus Woman

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Old 08-08-2007, 09:53 PM   #115
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The overwhelming drug/alcohol problems amoungst our Native people is most certainly due to the PTSD that has never been addressed, brought on by the US Government attempts and successes in assimulating us over the last 2 centuries.
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Old 08-08-2007, 10:34 PM   #116
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The overwhelming drug/alcohol problems amoungst our Native people is most certainly due to the PTSD that has never been addressed, brought on by the US Government attempts and successes in assimulating us over the last 2 centuries.
yupyup and now the have the zekeassimilator working for them.TY for pointing out that yes in fact blood percentage can in fact be increased and not just decreased as zeke would have people believe...its very simple math and one would think that the self-righteous would be able to perform such a trivial math problem as this....after all us lowly traditionalists can figure it out...does that mean we're smarter?? LOL
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Old 08-08-2007, 11:05 PM   #117
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The overwhelming drug/alcohol problems amoungst our Native people is most certainly due to the PTSD that has never been addressed, brought on by the US Government attempts and successes in assimulating us over the last 2 centuries.
The overwhelming drug/alcohol problems amongst Natives is due to the fact that many Natives abuse drugs and alcohol.

Step one in fixing ANY problem is admitting who causes it. Nobody puts a gun to these fools' head. They choose to use, every day. This is, simply, more "poor me," more "200 years ago," more inability to be accountable...

Nothing that happened 200 years ago causes any rationally intelligent person to abuse substances TODAY. To believe so makes us backwards social wards who still wail at the pleasing of the Great White Father or brands you as irrational.

In a previous post, WocusWoman beseeched Natives to teach their children to "choose wisely." I couldn't agree more. Step one? "Get past using 200 years ago as an excuse." Step two? "Get past quantum." Step three? "Move forward."

Failure to do so brings about downfall. ENJOY.
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Old 08-08-2007, 11:43 PM   #118
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The overwhelming drug/alcohol problems amongst Natives is due to the fact that many Natives abuse drugs and alcohol.

Step one in fixing ANY problem is admitting who causes it. Nobody puts a gun to these fools' head. They choose to use, every day. This is, simply, more "poor me," more "200 years ago," more inability to be accountable...

Nothing that happened 200 years ago causes any rationally intelligent person to abuse substances TODAY. To believe so makes us backwards social wards who still wail at the pleasing of the Great White Father or brands you as irrational.

In a previous post, WocusWoman beseeched Natives to teach their children to "choose wisely." I couldn't agree more. Step one? "Get past using 200 years ago as an excuse." Step two? "Get past quantum." Step three? "Move forward."

Failure to do so brings about downfall. ENJOY.
no one said anything(except for your qualifying and quantifying) about substance abuse being blamed on anything that happened 200 years ago...rather it was very clearly stated that substance abuse is directly related to todays assimilation into non-native society...i'll type s..l...o...w...l...y so zeke understands....if native society wasnt exposed to meth then there would be NO meth problem...etc etc
FYI zeke,alcoholism is a disease and Indian People have a gentic pre-disposition to alcoholism.
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Old 08-09-2007, 12:19 AM   #119
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Can someone explain why were are even discussing a fraction that the gov. assigns in relation to our identity and possibly even a factor on determining who our children marry?

Someone even mentioned earlier a possible scenario.....a person who's quantum is 4/4th's marrying another person who is 4/4th's of another tribe.....and their descendants continuing to marry other 4/4th Natives from other tribes.....can someone tell me what their identity is? Depending on their ancestors tribe and eligibility would determine whether they would even meet the standards for registration of any of the tribes.

Just a suggestion, but maybe instead of passing on the gov. blood quantum system to the next generation, teach them about what marriage means to your community and what it meant to your ancestors, (for instance ~ respect for your in-laws and the behaviors that go along with it).

Let white people worry about their numbers, and we'll worry about retaining our Native values and fighting acculturation.

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Old 08-09-2007, 01:06 AM   #120
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Can someone explain why were are even discussing a fraction that the gov. assigns in relation to our identity and possibly even a factor on determining who our children marry?
One obvious answer is that some individuals are concerned that their allocation of subsidies will decrease if we deviate from the demeaning "quantum standard." In some cases, that's all they have -- short-sighted and closeted -- and they fear being asked to grow and be accountable. They have taken the metaphorical cheese and accept the branding of their masters: even to the point of making it a factor in who their children wed. SAD. These fools have tied blood quantum to cultural identity. That's BAD.

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Someone even mentioned earlier a possible scenario.....a person who's quantum is 4/4th's marrying another person who is 4/4th's of another tribe.....and their descendants continuing to marry other 4/4th Natives from other tribes.....can someone tell me what their identity is? Depending on their ancestors tribe and eligibility would determine whether they would even meet the standards for registration of any of the tribes.
Precisely the point. Even in a pureblood scenario, blood doesn't work as a determinative factor for who we are. And, of course, we all KNOW the statistically minimal number of pureblood weddings... Negligable. Reality is that we are dealing with diminishing fractions across the board. Logic demands we come up with a cultural definition, before those who would have us tied to a cross of quantum see us crucified upon it.

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Just a suggestion, but maybe instead of passing on the gov. blood quantum system to the next generation, teach them about what marriage means to your community and what it meant to your ancestors, (for instance ~ respect for your in-laws and the behaviors that go along with it).
Ah yes! Logic. I concur. Try getting threatened -- and hypocritical -- anthropological psuedo-traditionalists to think that way, however. Quantum demeans us, like dogs.

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Let white people worry about their numbers, and we'll worry about retaining our Native values and fighting acculturation.
Step one would be to cease allowing them the dominant position by continuing to "blame" them for our foibles. If a Native is an alcoholic, for example, that's because he IS an alcoholic. It is NOT because the government made him one.

When Natives become accountable, eradicate the "poor me" rhetoric, and cease to define themselves using non-renewable resources, we'll get somewhere.

Last edited by Zeke; 08-09-2007 at 01:09 AM..
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