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View Poll Results: Natives dating/marrying non-natives
Yes, it's exceptable 91 61.49%
NO, definatatly not! 32 21.62%
Undecided or no comment 25 16.89%
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Old 09-06-2007, 10:24 AM   #161
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Well......... I think............... that any native person who marrys a non-native should have their spouse automatically, officially, without any recourse, on their wedding day, enrolled in their husbands/wifes tribe/nation and recieve all benefits, percaps, tanning(if required) and all tribal members should accept (lovingly embrace) these new Indians as one of their own. Maybe even the spouses families too as in-laws would now be extended family. (provided they smoke the peacepipe)

This would end any further arguments about who should marry who.
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Old 09-06-2007, 11:14 AM   #162
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Here I am, a German with accidently having some Native American genes inside, not even speaking your language fluidly.
This thread made me think, although I haven't had the time to read every post yet today.

My opinion- and it is about opinions, right?- is:
When two people decide to marry,
they should not try to become one circle,
each of them should be 'complete' before they marry.
This way they are able to accept the other, able to love,
able to make decisions they really want to make...
To me it makes no difference what blood is inside,
but to me it is important that my 'going to be hubby'
accepts me and my past, doesn't make me responsible for
his mistakes and visa versa, accepts my children and my parents and of course
'my' history as well. Same for him. Of course I will want to learn!
I wish your culture will stay alive forever and always,
but marrying just among your skin color doesn't mean that
your culture will survive that way.
One is biology, the other is heart-soul-mind...
To me this question can be answered like this one:
Is it colder outside than in the night time?
Follow your heart. When the heritage of your 'going to be partner for life' is so very important, then you have already answered your question on your own. Could you be happy with anybody else?
And about having sex with x or y - that happens - in a way that you usually allow and choose it to happen.
And now I'm heading off for my work, read more later. Have a great day everyone*g*
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Old 09-06-2007, 01:24 PM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiwehnzii View Post
Well......... I think............... that any native person who marrys a non-native should have their spouse automatically, officially, without any recourse, on their wedding day, enrolled in their husbands/wifes tribe/nation and recieve all benefits, percaps, tanning(if required) and all tribal members should accept (lovingly embrace) these new Indians as one of their own. Maybe even the spouses families too as in-laws would now be extended family. (provided they smoke the peacepipe)

This would end any further arguments about who should marry who.
I don't disagree: although the idea of extended family could be too far in some respects.

Back in the day, when someone became part of the tribe, they became part of the tribe.
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Old 09-06-2007, 01:42 PM   #164
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Provided they smoke the peacepipe. Ayyee.
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Old 09-06-2007, 02:38 PM   #165
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Okay, my two cents worth. Not that it's all that much.LOL

That just depends on who, when and where. Now, let me explain please.

I know of many non-native's who marry natives and they are very happy and they both honor each other's lives and the way that they are. They share their lives together and it seems to work.

But what about all those who are out there looking to hook up with someone (anyone) just because they are native? I have seen alot of this. Both men and women who go to pow wow's in the hopes of meeting and getting together with a native person. It gets really bad. I have actually had people come to me and ask if I know of a native person who is single who would be interested in them. Now, that's not right.

What about the non-natives who marry a native and then become these great teacher's and experts to the point that they exclude or push away their own spouse who really is native? I have seen this as well and that gets really ugly to a point where the one spouse will totally take over the other spouses life and tell them how to live and when they need to do things and when they don't.

I have seen both of these situations more then I care to think about it. But either way if you meet someone and there is a connection (a true connection), then should it matter if they are native, non-native or anything else? Two people who truely fall in love should be together. I have seen many families and tribes accept the non-native spouse as a part of them wether or not they have native blood based on the marriage and children who come along.
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Old 09-06-2007, 04:16 PM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timmy tiger View Post
Okay, my two cents worth. Not that it's all that much.LOL

That just depends on who, when and where. Now, let me explain please.

I know of many non-native's who marry natives and they are very happy and they both honor each other's lives and the way that they are. They share their lives together and it seems to work.

But what about all those who are out there looking to hook up with someone (anyone) just because they are native? I have seen alot of this. Both men and women who go to pow wow's in the hopes of meeting and getting together with a native person. It gets really bad. I have actually had people come to me and ask if I know of a native person who is single who would be interested in them. Now, that's not right.

What about the non-natives who marry a native and then become these great teacher's and experts to the point that they exclude or push away their own spouse who really is native? I have seen this as well and that gets really ugly to a point where the one spouse will totally take over the other spouses life and tell them how to live and when they need to do things and when they don't.

I have seen both of these situations more then I care to think about it. But either way if you meet someone and there is a connection (a true connection), then should it matter if they are native, non-native or anything else? Two people who truely fall in love should be together. I have seen many families and tribes accept the non-native spouse as a part of them wether or not they have native blood based on the marriage and children who come along.
Because they are Native...? Why? What for? Because they are in love with brown skin? Because they love dark hair? Because they love people who honor their culture? I don't understand this, would you please explain this to me? Or is it all about money?
Your benefits or such?

I totally agree with your opinion of love and being together.

What really confuses me is the law- I think I just don't get it right. But maybe it is just that complicated!?

I just think that every tribe should be given the right to make it's own rules when it comes to enrolled members.

Maybe for some tribes it could be good to amalgamate... But what about the benefits/money?

In my opinion this money belongs to the ones whose ancestors are Native.
The Non-Native part should not get those benefits, but their children should.

Am I getting it right when I think that these benefits are for Natives, because America used to be their land? But some of them just are not able to trace their ancestors back?

It should be easier for those people to get their benefits or however you call that. It is their right, and they should be given their right.

But whoever is not Native, should not have any basis to get what doesn't belong to them. Not even with 'help' of a marriage. No!

Their children should- my opinion- get those benefits.

Plus: Non Natives who are really interested in the Native culture and history will NOT want to get money.

I am a little bit Native myself, but I am here in Germany, I was raised German, so I think, even if I were successful to find 'my' tribe, I would not dare to want any benefits!

But I would definitely love to be taught 'my' tribe's culture! Oh, and I definitely know that the word 'twinkie' has nothing to do with my person. I am proud of myself,

and yes, I would marry a Native man. And yes, if I fell in love with a white or yellow or black or ...man, I would marry him instead!

My 2 €urocents
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Old 09-06-2007, 05:16 PM   #167
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Indian-Heart-Beat---some of that is exactly right. For some, they think that there is "free" money, there isn't. But alot of it is braggert's rights and looks. With all the movies that have been out lately it glorifies the Indian way of life. I, personally, think that those who are looking "Just for an Indian" to marry, should go live on a rez. and with the people for a while and see what it's really like.

I believe you. I met a man years ago who told me a story. He was Chickasaw Indian and he was in Germany for a while and a German man came to him and said that he was Indian. My friend was shocked, but the German man had a tribal enrollement card. It turned out that his father was in the Military and so was his Mother who was "Full Blood Indian", they met and married in the military and then they lived in Germany after they both got out of the service.
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Old 09-06-2007, 05:19 PM   #168
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I, personally, think that those who are looking "Just for an Indian" to marry, should go live on a rez. and with the people for a while and see what it's really like.
That would eradicate the romanticism...
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Old 09-06-2007, 05:51 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by Zeke View Post
That would eradicate the romanticism...
LOL, this can be a good thing and bad thing also, depends on how you see it. Romance and dreams are good for me, I like it!

But...who wants to marry a dream? And some 'exotic' or 'romantic' feelings are probably not a good base for a marriage.

You know nothing about me or my past, I don't know nothing about yours. What I do know is this: If you really want somebody because of who he is - not what he owns- then why would you not accept a life there?

I have been through 'hell' also, never been to a rez though. All I do know is that it is my choice - whatever I do or not do. And when I need a romance in a rez but cannot stand living there, well, I better never wake up!

This is not funny, I know, ... can't explain...what I think is that in my opinion you shouldn't feel 'used' when a white woman or man falls in love with you- or even the romantic thought of being physically loved (I think that's it maybe) by an image of a strong handsome Native warrior (and do not feel attacked by my words, because it is not an attack). Just say yes or no. Take that 'risk' or don't.
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Old 09-06-2007, 06:18 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timmy tiger View Post
Indian-Heart-Beat---some of that is exactly right. For some, they think that there is "free" money, there isn't. But alot of it is braggert's rights and looks. With all the movies that have been out lately it glorifies the Indian way of life. I, personally, think that those who are looking "Just for an Indian" to marry, should go live on a rez. and with the people for a while and see what it's really like.

I believe you. I met a man years ago who told me a story. He was Chickasaw Indian and he was in Germany for a while and a German man came to him and said that he was Indian. My friend was shocked, but the German man had a tribal enrollement card. It turned out that his father was in the Military and so was his Mother who was "Full Blood Indian", they met and married in the military and then they lived in Germany after they both got out of the service.
Thank you for the explanation!

Yes, I will definitely go to Gallup and to the Diné and their rez. I need to get info about Acoma, Laguna, Zuni, Hopi, some Apache also... about every tribe who was in the Gallup area in 1879 before Gallup was actually called Gallup. Maybe next year.

I don't have a tribal enrollment card, I don't know 'my' tribe. And my parents are grown up here. I am just a little bit Native. Some say 12%, some say maybe(!) 19%. I have no proof for the 19% though, just rumors going around in my family. But that's off the topic here.

Maybe I am off the topic anyway? I hope my English is good enough to get things right. If not, just feel free to tell me!!!!
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Old 09-07-2007, 01:42 AM   #171
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Indian-Heart-beat--I think that that's a really good idea. To find out where your ancestors came from and who they were and meet some of the people from that area. That would answer alot of questions that you may have.
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Old 09-07-2007, 09:38 AM   #172
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Timmy Tiger,
it's kind of 'funny' and 'weird'... the reason why I don't have enough info about them is racism. Hilter and so on. I must be really lucky to find the right tribe with just one picture, a name and a -maybe faked- date of birth. But: I am doing it for myself and for my children, not to have a proof for getting money or something. I am German citizen. Strange, why do/did people need to hide their identity- I think Germany is not better than the USA! I feel racism against my person every day - either here on powwows.com or at my work or where I live - ignorants!
Did you know that mixed 'skins' are more healthy and more resistant against diseases than 'pure skins'? I read it more often, and I do believe this is true.
And here we are again - another pro to marry whoever you love.
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Old 09-07-2007, 11:00 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by othellobloke View Post
If you want the culture to be important and not the blood and genetics, there is a HUGE market for all things native in Germany . Whole bunch of white people who do it OLD STYLE... WAYYYYYYYY out in the bush, in real teepees, with real deerskin clothes, hunting with bows and arrows... you could always join them. It'd look quite stupid a whole bunch of white people running around in the bush wearing deerskin clothes with feathers in their hair, but that won't matter to you because you care about the culture and not the genetics.
Cool! How can you know? Are you here? I'll try to explain it to you as
I AM German, I AM here and have been living here all my life.
You know this is easy:
Some like belly dance, some do flamenco, some do karate, some do tae kwon do, some like knight games, some like to live like people did 50 years ago, 100, 200,... some like to do that on their weekends, some on their vacation, some want to see the inside of a tipi but cannot afford to travel that far - and this 'hobby to play NDN' is not comparable to being part of your culture. They just like what they know about it, but what do they know? Just camping in a tipi instead of a tent is not forbidden, is it? To wear Jeans is not forbidden, to drive a car is not forbidden,... There are worst things going on in Germany you probably wouldn't like to know of. As long as they (and I didn't say 'we'!) don't kill or scalp anybody or try spiritual things or try to be a Shaman or such- who cares? And even if- would it work in any way? What you talked about happens allover the world. Maybe you were talking about Karl May Festspiele? Winnetou? It is a game, more popular than Romeo and Juliet, because whole families with little kids go there, it is outside. I haven't been there yet, but I will next year or the year after. There are actors. Native actors also. Here are even moderators who have been there.
I hope this helped you a bit.
I think it is good that NDNs are known allover the world, and that their culture is so very interesting to many people of the world. No need to be jealous or feel attacked by Germans who make clothes of German deers, wear feathers from German birds...Celtic people did the same! Because they had no cotton. Smile. Enough of this. Later.
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Old 09-07-2007, 11:14 AM   #174
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I don't disagree: although the idea of extended family could be too far in some respects.

Back in the day, when someone became part of the tribe, they became part of the tribe.
I retract. Why? As Zeke says, " Do the math."

1st gen. - 1 non-blooded enrolled spouse.

2nd gen - 1 half blood child marries non-Indian. Spouse becomes enrolled. Newly enrolled spouse divorces. Still enrolled. Newly enrolled divorcee marries non-native. Newly married hubbie & wife are non-blood tribal members. Have child who they enroll.

3d gen - That was fast. Possibly 25 years for this to happen.

4th gen. - Where's the Indians gone?

And they even smoked the pipe.

After 25 years and still making/selling dreamcatchers. Authentically made by enrolled tribal members.

I did the math.
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Old 09-07-2007, 11:19 AM   #175
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IHB! As we say over here - you got a good head on your shoulders - you've spoken with a lot of sincerity and wisdom - and your words make a lot of sense!

I hope you eventually find out who your people are and can learn more about them. I think they'd be lucky to be able to count you among their own!
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Old 09-07-2007, 11:20 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Kiwehnzii View Post
I retract. Why? As Zeke says, " Do the math."

1st gen. - 1 non-blooded enrolled spouse.

2nd gen - 1 half blood child marries non-Indian. Spouse becomes enrolled. Newly enrolled spouse divorces. Still enrolled. Newly enrolled divorcee marries non-native. Newly married hubbie & wife are non-blood tribal members. Have child who they enroll.

3d gen - That was fast. Possibly 25 years for this to happen.

4th gen. - Where's the Indians gone?

And they even smoked the pipe.

After 25 years and still making/selling dreamcatchers. Authentically made by enrolled tribal members.

I did the math.
Are there tribes that really enroll non-NDN spouses of members? I know my tribe doesn't.

Last edited by NorthofAda; 09-07-2007 at 11:21 AM.. Reason: Spelling error.
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Old 09-07-2007, 11:28 AM   #177
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Originally Posted by NorthofAda View Post
Are there tribes that really enroll non-NDN spouses of members? I know my tribe doesn't.
I am not aware of any, but my ongoing argument against quantum carrying ANY meaning has just been made.

Unless the folks addressed are fullbloods, and they only wed fullbloods, the non-replenishing resource of blood goes away.

It's about the culture.
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Old 09-07-2007, 12:29 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by NorthofAda View Post
Are there tribes that really enroll non-NDN spouses of members? I know my tribe doesn't.
Up in Canada, up until that change to the Indian Act... any white woman that married a native guy got Indian Status and equal privileges that natives got. And an Indian woman who married a non-indian man lost her Indian Status.

So there's thousands and thousands of white folk in Canada with full Indian Status, voting in tribal elections, getting their cut of tribal revenues and running for tribal positions.

Pretty ****ed up I think.
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Old 09-07-2007, 12:34 PM   #179
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firstly, IHB...i love your words...

now, i finally got thru this whole thread..
and had many different emotions..
too many sad ones...

my first thought, is the idea of 'intention on marrying' anyone..
how do you 'intend to marry' no matter what the color..
(or culture)
thats probably my hang up..or positive (i consider myself of strong character..determined and independent..
so *sighs* yeah, i'll prolly end up alone!! )
as i don't have any 'intentions' on marrying 'anyone'
but will consider myself blessed if i find someone who understands me..
and can put up with me..
and that i can do the same with them...

Quote:
The point for me is, if you follow Ndn beliefs you're probably going to end up with another Ndn...
......exactly.
i mean, otherwise where is everyone talking about meeting these 'people' that you have to teach and instruct about who you are and where you come from..
hmmmmmmmmm..........'the mall'???
and who's culture is that??

as for skin color??
indeed. i love brown skin.
but bless!..if i were in some freak accident today
and my body burned (wow..this is a downer!!hehehe..)
unrecognizably..
how would you then recognize me as one of your own??
.........man, that's lame.*i recognize that*
but i felt i had to throw that in there..somehow.
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Old 09-07-2007, 12:35 PM   #180
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firstly, IHB...i love your words...

now, i finally got thru this whole thread..
and had many different emotions..
too many sad ones...

my first thought, is the idea of 'intention on marrying' anyone..
how do you 'intend to marry' no matter what the color..
(or culture)
thats probably my hang up..or positive (i consider myself of strong character..determined and independent..
so *sighs* yeah, i'll prolly end up alone!! )
as i don't have any 'intentions' on marrying 'anyone'
but will consider myself blessed if i find someone who understands me..
and can put up with me..
and that i can do the same with them...

Quote:
The point for me is, if you follow Ndn beliefs you're probably going to end up with another Ndn...
......exactly.
i mean, otherwise where is everyone talking about meeting these 'people' that you have to teach and instruct about who you are and where you come from..
hmmmmmmmmm..........'the mall'???
and who's culture is that??

as for skin color??
indeed. i love brown skin.
but bless!..if i were in some freak accident today
and my body burned (wow..this is a downer!!hehehe..)
unrecognizably..
how would you then recognize me as one of your own??
.........man, that's lame.*i recognize that*
but i felt i had to throw that in there..somehow.
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